Beethoven unfinished piano concerto?

[marinomau]

Hello everybody at Unsung Composers!
What do you think of this piano concerto fragment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR0EDgXlwYo&playnext=1&list=PL7F165F926E66EED9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx9SlluALSw&feature=BFa&list=PL7F165F926E66EED9&index=32
Do you think it's a fake? Or it could be an early (and rather boring) original Beethoven?

[TerraEpon]

Fake? Why would you think it's fake?

Hess at least didn't mention anything like that in his book, so far as I remember.

[marinomau]

Sorry, "fake" was internet slang for "dubious attribution". I didn't know this piano concerto fragment, so I was uncertain, also because I am not an expert on Beethoven opera omnia. Do you recognise some beethovenian clues in this concerto?

[Josh]

There are two incomplete Beethoven piano concerti that have been worked into some semblance of partial (this one in the video here, Hess 15) or even complete (Hess 4) performing shape.  Actually, in the case of Hess 4 (Piano Concerto "#0" in E-Flat), he felt there was enough material that he did a completion himself; I have a recording of this one, but I don't think any original orchestration by the 13-year old Beethoven survives, only the piano part.

The first YouTube video there is a "completion" of sorts by Nicholas Cook of sketches for a first movement of what is usually called the Piano Concerto #6 in D Major, dating to the Winter of 1814-15.  Supposedly, a lot more of this material is original Beethoven than you might believe, but I only know what I've read about it from this site and one or two other places:

http://www.unheardbeethoven.org/search/search.pl?piece=hess15h.mid

There's also info on these works on - you guessed it - Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Concerto_No._0_(Beethoven)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Concerto_No._6_(Beethoven)

In short, no, not fake. Not all Beethoven, mind you, but not fake either.

[eschiss1]

Was surprised to learn though- indeed so much so that I am not sure that my source has it right...- that the other well-ish-known Beethoven piano-orchestra work without opus number, the Rondo in B-flat (possibly- I would not say certainly absent documentary evidence that attaches this particular work, not just "some" original finale, to it- the original finale intended for the B-flat major piano concerto), does not survive in manuscript but only in an edition by Carl Czerny, so that it is probably impossible to tell for certain how much of the Czerny edition is Beethoven and how much Czerny's.

[Balapoel]

Beethoven scholarship has revealed quite a few pieces for piano and orchestra beyond the usual five concerti. I have most of them (in various formats: orchestral, sketches, completion, midi).

(1) Piano Concerto in Eb, WoO 4 (1784) 27' - piano score survives, orchestration completed by Hess.

(2) Andante in D (1788 or 1792-3), intended for Piano Concerto in A, Biamonti 55, 9'34 - fragment (broadcast on NPR)

(3) Rondo in Bb, WoO 6 (1794-5), 9'29 finale, possibly to Op. 19 concerto.

(4) March with variations in Ab (1802) 2'27 (unfinished sketch)

(5) Piano Concerto in D, Op. 61 (1807) 46'00 (transcribed by Beethoven from Violin Concerto)

(6) Piano Concerto in D (1815) 16'00 (performing version) Hess 15. I have two scholarly articles about the extent of Beethoven's sketches for this, including illustrations of the sketches. In my opinion, the exposition (orchestral and solo) is pure Beethoven, it gets fragmented further in the development.

(7??) Piano Concerto in D (first movement - Allegro) (WoO Anh. 7) 14'37 (1788-1793??). Possibly spurious but interesting, nonetheless.

Cheers,
Balapoel

[fuhred]

This Beethoven Piano Concerto Hess 15 has been recorded and is available on the Italian label Inedita. [PI 2352]

http://www.ineditacd.com/asp/dett_ldw.asp


As for the Rondo in B flat, WoO 6, there is also a recording of the original version on the Inedita label [PI 2346].
Recent evidence has suggested that this work was conceived during Beethoven's period in Bonn, and therefore has NO link at all with the B flat Piano Concerto Op.19. Beethoven actually DID complete the piece, and the complete original manuscript was rediscovered in 1898. Czerny's edition of the work basically spiced up the piano part to take advantage of the upper range of the more recently-made instruments (and his own flashy technique). Beethoven's original sounds much more modest. Check out the link, there is an mp3 sample to hear:

http://www.ineditacd.com/asp/dett_ldw2.asp

[giles.enders]

From research by Prof. Barry Cooper:  The piano concerto in E flat major WoO4; what now survives is a contemporary manuscript copy for the piano part, which Beethoven later annotated and amended.  The orchestral tutti sections have been incorporated into this piano part, with occasional indications of orchestration.  It is known what the orchestra consisted of.  From this, Willy Hess orchestrated the whole work.  This was influenced by 1930's thinking.  A much more appropriate orchestration, I think, has recently been done by Ronald Brautigam who has also recorded it to gether with the Rondo in B flat major WoO6 and Piano Concerto No.2.  The Rondo in B flat major, it is suggested, was thought to be an original finale to Piano Concerto No.2.

[fuhred]

I have not heard the Brautigam recording of the early E flat concerto WoO 4 yet, but interestingly, Inedita has also recorded a 'new' version of this work. The new, fuller orchestration is by Roberto Diem Tigani, and the concerto is now scored for full wind section instead of just flutes and horns. It works very well.

http://www.ineditacd.com/asp/dett_ldw2.asp