Elfrida Andrée

[Josh]

Here's one completely new to me!  Unfortunately, I can't really comment very much, but it was so out of the ordinary that I wanted to share it here.  I normally try to avoid basically empty posts (which is why I haven't said anything here at all recently), but this just seems pretty rare.  No, this symphony doesn't blow me away, but I don't think it completely sucks.

Symphony #2 in A minor  (1893)
I. Moderato (PART1; split into two videos)
I. Moderato (PART2)
II. Andante
III. Presto
IV. Allegro risoluto

[febnyc]

I assume you are referring to the Sterling CD, although I don't understand the reference to "split into two videos."

Anyway, the Andrée disc, for me, falls into the same category as many of the Sterling issues.  I have purchased almost every one and many of them are interesting novelties, but music to which I rarely return.  There are exceptions of course.  As for Andrée, I listened - was not impressed very much and, eventually, gave away the disc.

[Alan Howe]

Not very impressive. Unlike Noskowski 1!

[edurban]

Gave mine away, too.  She seemed not quite up to working in large forms.
David

[Mark Thomas]

Looks pretty much like unanimity as far as Elfrida is concerned. I have the Sterling CD and one from Discofil of music for organ and orchestra. It's all pretty thin stuff IMHO. I downloaded a Piano Quintet recently and that's more successful, although it's hardly top flight. A lesser light, I'm afraid.

I must spring to the defence of Sterling, however. There's no denying that quite a few of Bo's discoveries were only just worth the effort but there's also a good number which I wouldn't want to be without: works by Noskowski, Cliffe, Staehle, Raff, Mielck, Rubenson, Norman, Klughardt and both Scharwenkas spring to mind without even checking...

[JSK]

I have lurked on this forum for a while, but I feel like I need to post in this thread. I am a musicology student whose primary research interest is, in fact, Elfrida Andree. I am currently editing her D minor string quartet, one of her later chamber works, for publication.

I greatly admire Andree's work, though I would agree that she isn't a "great" composer. Andree was not an innovative composer and most of her best music is fairly light. I can understand why some listeners might not be too enthusiastic about this. I personally enjoy Elfrida's treatment of harmony and melody as well as the color of her orchestration. She also demonstrates a good understanding of the instruments for which she writes chamber music. Chamber music is arguably her strong suit, but I don't think she can be fully evaluated as a composer until somebody has performed at least some vocal excerpts from her unperformed opera Fritiof.

As for the Sterling CD, I feel like the performance is not a particularly good one, although competent. The second symphony is not fantastic. Although pleasing enough, it is not that dramatic and explores no great musical depths, but I find it an enjoyable listen every now and then, despite the disappointingly slow scherzo. I find the Fritiof Suite on the CD much more enjoyable. The prelude is one of my favorite operatic preludes. To me, it is very evocative music and I would really like a better idea of what the rest of the opera sounds like (possible PHD thesis?)

I do not know the organ works too well, but aside from a CD of those works and the sterling CD her music is very difficult to find. Stay away from the recording of some of her chamber music on Telia/Caprice. It is expensive and the mediocre performers take liberal cuts from the original scores when these cuts are not even indicated by the composer! The song Svanen receives a decent rendition on this CD while the Piano Sonata is not very impressive here.

If any of you are absolutely desperate for better, but still not great, performances of her works. The Swedish label Altfiol i Vast has recorded her Andante Quasi Recitativo for string orchestra (one of Elfrida's favorites from among her work; with harmonies influenced by Wagner) and the composer's version of the D minor quartet with added bass.

If anybody here has any questions about Elfrida Andree's life and works or anything else about the composer, feel free to send me a PM.

Also, if anyone wants to give away their Elfrida Andree CDs, I would be happy to take them!

[Mark Thomas]

Welcome to the Forum JSK! Happy un-lurking 

[thundercloud]

As a native swede, i can sure say that Mrs Andrée is not perforemd very often. She achived her greatest sucess in her chambermusic compositions, and as musical director of the great cathedral in Gothenburg. She did composed a bouquet of lovely songs, and an opera baased on librettos by the famous swedish writer Selma Lagerlöf. Unfortunatly it's still unperformed.

One question is if women composers have the fact against them that they are just women?! . No offense, really, but it seems that they have an unability to suceed in the greater forms :S. For exampel we can take Clara Schumann and Fanny Mendelssohn. They have composed wonderful songs and chambermusic, but like Clara Schumanns piano concerto, it's not half as good as her husbands, it's short, and quit boring ( i have performed them both)

Amy Beach is another good exampel. Wonderful songs and piano pieces, but her symphony and piano concerto...not good. The concerto is a marvellous show of piece, like she wanted to say " hey im a voman, i can write big fat mombastic chords too. It seams she wrote it just to prove what a stunning performer she was. She really was. In other composers concertos, but compared to MacDowells 2 amazing concertos, hers is a failure.

So the question...have women composers the fact that they are women, against them in the larger forms? Based on what they have done, it seems like that.

One exception is Alma Mahler. Her songs, are together with Schuberts winterreise and griegs Haugtussa, the best in the world!!!

[edurban]

"...Amy Beach is another good exampel...her symphony and piano concerto...not good..."

Not good?  Marvelous.  Both pieces seem to me well-constructed, effective, and chock full of good tunes.  If I had to give one the edge, it would be the concerto, which has the advantage of using Mrs. Beach's own solo instrument and comes later in her (self-taught) career.  As for the Heaven-storming aspects of both works, well, as my late friend Genie Dengle (who played Mrs. Beach's trio with the composer) "she had a strong personality."

David

[Pengelli]

Perhaps a little off topic. But would you say the Amy Beach orchestral works are better or worse than Ethel Smyth's? (Ref: Chandos cd). I keep wondering about them. The naxos cd's being cheap!

[Steve B]

Thundercloud, this is a very complex topic, as am sure you are aware:)

I think that, in order to make a comprehensive, or even FAIRLY comprehensive, claim(which I appreciate you are only positing as a POSSIBILITY:)) that women composers excelled more in smaller forms, one would need to have listened to many, many women composers who wrote in such forms(symphonies, concerti, opera etc). There are two dictionaries available of (solely) women composers which will list works, and, possibly, recordings of such works. But I think to go on a few examples is not the best.... No offence.

Also, there is the sexist element here at work(not in yourself, Thunderbird; please don't misunderstand me!)but in hegemonic musical western history, which is mainly male-dominated; and where some women composers were railroaded into domesticity by their (male) partners, as was the dominant culture of the age; so opportunities for career development(in, for example, orchestral forms) were more limited. I am not an expert in this field; but there ARE experts(probably mainly women!); but I think we should avoid sweeping generalisations based on one or two examples until full research is done, by us, as individuals. It is a chicken or egg situation: WERE women more at home in smaller(chamber, songs) forms or  did they not have the career opportunity, because of institutionalised sexism,to develop/get tuition in these forms.

As i said, its a complex, fraught subject... and i do not feel qualified to dsicuss it further other than raising these questions. I also note that there are few women members on this forum, which isnt just THIS forum(Mark and Alan), it is true of MOST classical music discussion forums.......

Like the sexual orientation question(ie. whether it is discernible in non-vocal music, where, even as  a gay man, I would say music is ABOVE/TRANSCENDS this issue,) people will have strong opinions. So can we keep it, as we usually do, nice-natured?
Thanks

Steve

[eschiss1]

And while too modern for this forum, mostly, Grazyna Bacewicz's (1909-1969) music, I maintain, is of really, extremely high standard- the three of her seven violin concertos (1, 4 and 7), one of her four symphonies, several of her seven string quartets, etc. and for example, that I've heard, all included.
Eric

[Syrelius]

So the question...have women composers the fact that they are women, against them in the larger forms? Based on what they have done, it seems like that.

Hello Thundercloud,
and a welcome to the Forum from one of your countrymen!

It is hardly surprising that there are not that many successful women who have worked in larger forms. Most people who have composed music were not great masters. On a Mozart or a Beethoven - or even a Glazunov or Svendsen - there is a very large number of composers with small or no talent at all. Then compare the number of men who have worked in larger musical forms with the number of women - the hope to find a female Brahms is probably rather small from a statistic perspective... You should also add to that all the extra problems that the few women who DID work in larger forms would face...  (Just read about how Elfrida André was treated by the conductor when she was lucky enough to have one of her symphonies performed at a public consert).

I would also like to mention Louise Farrenc. All right, she is not a Brahms, but still a talented symphonist, in my opinion.

[Gareth Vaughan]

One of the most accomplished (and neglected) symphonists of the first half of the 20th century is the British composer, Ruth Gipps. A pupil of Vaughan Williams, she knew how to write for the orchestra and how to handle large symphonic forms.

[Kriton]

So the question...have women composers the fact that they are women, against them in the larger forms? Based on what they have done, it seems like that.

One exception is Alma Mahler. Her songs, are together with Schuberts winterreise and griegs Haugtussa, the best in the world!!!

How do these things fit together? Since when are songs larger forms? You're actually saying, there are no exceptions to the rule, but you do like Alma's songs?

The form question is a very interesting one. To react to that:

Perhaps a little off topic. But would you say the Amy Beach orchestral works are better or worse than Ethel Smyth's? (Ref: Chandos cd). I keep wondering about them. The naxos cd's being cheap!

I like Beach, but I love Smyth - I can really recommend the Chandos CD with her double concerto and serenade. Very well orchestrated, perfectly at home in large forms. The finale of the concerto for me was a bit of a nod to the finale of Mahler's 7th, so it's probably not easily digested by most - it is, however, the reason I fell in love with the piece. So, there you have it: Ethel Smyth is for me the only woman composer I can put next to the semi-great male composers. But perhaps this is, because... I have to quote Steve here, who has put it so eloquently:

Also, there is the sexist element here at work(not in yourself, Thunderbird; please don't misunderstand me!)but in hegemonic musical western history, which is mainly male-dominated; and where some women composers were railroaded into domesticity by their (male) partners, as was the dominant culture of the age; so opportunities for career development(in, for example, orchestral forms) were more limited. I am not an expert in this field; but there ARE experts(probably mainly women!); but I think we should avoid sweeping generalisations based on one or two examples until full research is done, by us, as individuals. It is a chicken or egg situation: WERE women more at home in smaller(chamber, songs) forms or  did they not have the career opportunity, because of institutionalised sexism,to develop/get tuition in these forms.

...she was a lesbian! So she "naturally" didn't feel at home in the role society allocated to her, and wasn't intimidated by men holding up the prejudice of women not being able to a) compose at all, or b) compose in larger forms. Sexism has deprived us a what would probably be an important part of our cultural heritage - then again, sexism itself is part of our cultural heritage. An interesting, though tricky, topic.