Czerny Symphony No2 & Psalm 130 etc

[Martin Eastick]

Although scarcely a "new recording" as such, I wondered if it was generally known that the American Symphony Orchestra's live performance (under Botstein & available as a download via i-tunes & various other outlets) of Czerny's Symphony No2 in D major IS NOT THE SAME WORK AS THE CZERNY SYMPHONY NO2 OP781 AS AVAILABLE IN TWO COMMERCIAL CD RECORDINGS!

The ASO "2nd Symphony" is the one dating from 1814 and was never published (unlike the other "Symphony no2 in D" Op781) & what an achievement for the 23-year-old Czerny, with an impressive work of just over an hour's duration of considerable substance & remarkable content!

There are also two choral works from the same concert available namely: Psalm 130 (1840), and a Fantasy for Chorus & Orchestra on Schiller's poem "The Power of Song", which dates from 1842. Once again, both of these works are from Czerny's unpublished "serious" output!

My apologies if these there has been previous mention here but I felt that these performances ought to be flagged up, especially as we have just been treated to performances from the Canadian Czerny Festival of other excellent examples of his more serious music, available on CD at last!

[Alan Howe]

Oh, well spotted, Martin! I'd seen the mp3s but had assumed it was Op.781. Now to give it a listen! More later...

[Mark Thomas]

Czerny is seriously underrated and I can never quite fathom why. Presumably because he was remarkably productive and churned out all those exercises. Yet his "serious" music is never less than impressive and always has a restless energy which I find very appealing. Off to prise open my wallet, then. Thanks, Martin.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

So I'm now confused (not for the first time!). Can anyone point me to a definitive list of Czerny symphonies?

I have two recordings of what I supposed was No. 2 (in D major). They are conducted by Nikos Athinaos (on Signum) and Grzegorz Nowak (on Hanssler). Both CDs refer to this symphony as 'Op. 781' - though neither give a date (of composition and/or publication). These are presumably the 'commercial recordings' referred to by Martin.

So are we wrong to refer to this symphony as 'No. 2'? Where does this alternative (of 1814) fit into the Czerny corpus?

I have also CD recordings of Op. 780 No. 1 in C minor, No. 5 in E flat major (1854), and No. 6 in G minor (1854). Are those references correct?

What we can agree upon without a doubt is that Czerny is a serious unrepresented unsung composer (if you put to one side all those exercises).

I've also forever dipping into the three CD double sets of piano music by Martin Jones on Nimbus. Really good stuff!

No connection at all apart from the fact that my butterfly mind skips from one to the other: another equally good series of piano discs are those by Susan Kagan (on Naxos) of Ries. Both sets highly recommended - and in the meantime I'd appreciate some enlightment on the Czerny symphonies!

[Mark Thomas]

If you go to the Wikipedia page on Czerny's compositions (which like the rest of English Wikipedia is offline for 24 hours, but you get it via Google's cache) all will be clear. Two symphonies have opus numbers:

Symphony No. 1 in C minor "Grand Symphony" op.780
Symphony no. 2 in D major op.781

and five do not

Symphony in D (1814) - the work which Martin has mentioned above.
Symphony no. 3 in C major
Symphony no. 4 in D minor
Symphony no. 5 in E♭ (1845)
Symphony no. 6 in G minor

I don't know when Nos.1-4 and No.6 were composed, but presumably No.1 predates the 1814 D major if Botstein is calling it "No.2"? Maybe someone can shed more light on this. Nos.1, 2, 5 and 6 are the ones which have been recorded commercially.

I've just finished downloading and listening to the D major of 1814 and, as Martin say, it's a fine piece. At first hearing it's as good as the best of Ries' symphonies (Nos.7 & 8 IMHO) but isn't as indebted to Beethoven as he is - an altogether lighter orchestral palette. Very interesting.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

Ah, Mark, you bring enlightenment.

Thank you!

[Martin Eastick]

To help clarify matters (if that is at all possible!) I would refer to the 2008 publication "Beyond The Art of Finger Dexterity - Reassessing Carl Czerny" - edited by David Gramit. There are 14 chapters, each with its own author, and Douglas Townsend has contributed here with a chapter on Czerny's Orchestral Music, which makes mention of the fact that Op780/781 - whilst numbered 1 & 2 respectively, must refer to the fact that these two works were only his 1st & 2nd PUBLISHED  symphonies, going on to say that he is known to have written at least six such "premiere" works!

Furthermore, also included is an appendix "Musical Autographs by Carl Czerny in the Archiv der Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde in Wien" - which was compiled by Dr Otto Biba. This is a listing of  the unpublished works, some in fragmentary form. To confuse the matter still further: item no.31 is Grande Sinfonie IIieme No1 des Sinfonies, July 11, 1806 This is one movement only - in F minor! In the published list of Czerny's works (R Cocks & Co c.1860) Op2 is a Rondeau Brillant for piano duet!

The general consensus of opinion is that Czerny composed ABOUT 8 symphonies in total - and we are lucky enough in these enlightened times to have 5 of them recorded -  to date!

[Mark Thomas]

Thank you Martin - I thought that I understood the situation before I read your clarification! 
Groves, by the way, lists six symphonies (the Nos.1-6 in my post) plus 1 other unpublished - which is the 1814 D major I suppose.

So where does Botstein get his "No.2" from?

[Martin Eastick]

Mark, I am sorry  for not making this clear, but it would seem that the Botstein Symphony labelled No2 is an assumption that Czerny did not write any other symphony between his early F minor 1806 Grande Sinfonie ("No1 des Sinfonies") and the 1814 D major. Whilst the 1806 symphony is listed with "No1" against it, there is no such specification against the 1814 work, that is according to Dr Biba's listing in Gramit's book, which only gives the key and  date of composition.

As the rest of the appendix seems to be quite precise in all other respects, I would be most surprised at any omission here, although it's not inconcievable!

[Mark Thomas]

Thanks Martin, I understand now.

[eschiss1]

Glad someone is performing the "other" Czerny symphony in D, the 1814 one described at some length by Wyn-Jones in The symphony in Beethoven's Vienna.
I believe there are or may be 7 or 8 Czerny symphonies (or more, as you mention)- 1806 movement, 1814 D major, no.1 in C minor op.780, no.2 in D major op.781, nos.3-6 unpublished at the time (but I believe later works. 5 in E-flat, 6 in G minor. 3 and 4 - not sure! May be being published now, though... soon? don't know.?)

Anyone have a copy of Wyn-Jones to hand? I've been going around and about and guessing with the Google Preview. My area university library may have it. It contains info on a lot of contemporary symphonies, e.g. Krommer's 8-plus (that is, the 8 numbered surviving ones - well, not the sinfonias, he doesn't mention those, I think), Reicha's, and quite a few others as per his title.
(I think opp.780 and 781 postdate the D major 1814. Op.780 was performed in 1845 (and published in 1847 by Häslinger, likewise was op.781 - see HMB@Rhul), it seems, so one knows -that- much- not later than 1845 for sym.1, publication date limit 1847 for sym.2; but how early, I don't know...)

At least according to http://home.earthlink.net/~dbratman/syms_list.html symphony 3 is in C, symphony 4 in D minor, and all we have is "before 1854" (and Czerny having died in 1857 that's some information but not that much I suppose.) As to opus 2 being the 1806 symphony, doubly-applied opus numbers (and etc. and... ... ... ...) are, please pardon the double negative, not uncommon... the less-known the composer, it sometimes seems, the more hair-tearing the situation becomes. Just my observation. (With exceptions in both directions obviously...)

[dafrieze]

Martin, thanks for the tip!  I've downloaded and listened to the Czerny symphony, and it's extremely good (the second movement is particularly lovely).

[Alan Howe]

I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to know this expansive, yet consistently interesting symphony. What interests me in particular is its 'heavenly length' (to quote a phrase) because it's an hour long! So, while bearing obvious homage to Beethoven, it often puts me in mind of Schubert 9 (which dates from a decade later!). Any comments from others who have bought this splendid download?

[Mark Thomas]

It's an impressive work, as is almost all of Czerny's "serious" output which I've heard. The man has tremendous powers of invention, although maybe the invention is "broad", like Raff's, rather than "deep" like Beethoven's or Brahms'. The Raff comparison is apt in another way because he is also a self-consciously clever" composer; his technical expertise is clear, even in this early work. Where he differs from Raff is that his melodic gift doesn't match his technical skill. Whilst I enjoy listening to this work, and his other symphonies and concertos, very much, when it's over I don't remember any melodies, just the overall impression of a busy, involving, clever piece of music. Which is enough, actually.

[Alan Howe]

I deliberately gave the work a couple of listens today and am beginning to absorb the piece rather better than on first hearing. I found the slow movement with its surprisingly forceful climax to be particularly memorable. It's now going on my 'must get to know this better' pile, along with Melartin's symphonies and Glazunov 8.