"Orchestral" string chamber music

[Glazier]

Many writers criticise string chamber music which is not contrapuntal, especially works with loud "scrubbing" passages as "orchestral", meaning bad.

The victim is usually Brahms 1st quartet Op 51 number 1.                I disagree; I thinks it's just different.  For me it has the same kind of energy as the opening of Beethoven Op 95, or Brahms' String Quintet in G.

Other controversial works are Schubert's 2 vc quintet, and Grieg's str qt.

Any other friends of  maligned "orchestral" string chamber works?

[Marcus]

Hello Glazier,
I recently purchased a Naxos disc of Schumann's String Quartets op41 no1 & op41 no3, transcribed for string orchestra by Canadian composer/conductor Jean-Philippe Tremblay.
I have always enjoyed the Schumann Quartets in their original form, but these transcriptions are superb, and in my opinion, the form enhances these works - one of my favourite Naxos releases in recent years. (Naxos #8.570133)

Marcus.

[Alan Howe]

What about Tchaikovsky's string quartets? I don't think they're really chamber music...

[Kriton]

...the Schumann Quartets in their original form, but these transcriptions are superb, and in my opinion, the form enhances these works...

In what way?

Only since my first hearing of Korngolds serenade have a started to appreciate music for string orchestra - I used to find 'just strings' quite obtrusive, and preferred either music for full orchestra (with lots of horns & trombones!) or few strings, i.e. chamber music.

Beethovens late quartets are being performed by string orchestras more and more, as was always the case with his op.95, Schubert's 'Death and the Maiden', Verdi's quartet, and, of course, Tchaikovsky's sextet. Gidon Kremer has, together with his fine Kremerata Baltica, in recent times played and recorded Schubert's last quartet, his famous quintet and the Adagio of Mahler's unfinished 10th (and more which I can't think of right now).

I love arrangements of famous (and less famous) compositions, and find nothing wrong with recording them. BUT I do find this criticism of some chamber music being '(too) orchestral' / not contrapunctal enough (and performing it with string orchestra for that reason) rather ridiculous. For me, wenn it comes to music for stringed voices, the famous 'less is more' applies. The regularly criticised 'orchestral effects' represent for me not a matter of taste, but a lack of knowledge of (or a very conservative stance on) music history. What if the composer made it sound that way deliberously? How about Schumann and Liszt composing 'symphonically' for piano? What about those chamber music moments in orchestral works, for instance in many Mahler symphonies? Or Schubert's 2nd sonata for 4handed piano? No one (nowadays anyway!) criticises those, although they could be considered 'unidiomatically' composed as well. It's the chamber music that gets the raw deal, here. I find it a tad lame to regard the Tchaikovsky quartets as anything else but chamber music. That's what they are.

SO, here you have another friend of 'orchestral' chamber music. I recently returned to a recording of the beautiful 2nd Brahms quintet in an arrangement for string orchestra. Very fine, indeed, but it also made me realise the original is much, much better.

Regards!

[Kriton]

Hmm, I think I might be way too partial towards chamber music; I just realised I like Strauss' Metamorphosen more in the 'realisation' for string septet...

[Glazier]

Tchaik's Souvenir de Fl seems to me to be a piece for string orchestra pretending to be chamber music.  Every recording seems to be overstretched. Possibly this is a tendency of anything bigger than a string quartet.

[Marcus]

Hello Kriton,
Re my post #1.
As I stated, I have always enjoyed the Schuman Quartets in their original form, but I found the transcriptions for strings very successful, and for me adding another dimension.The string orchestra makes for a richer sound, and in my opinion enhances these works. But it is only an opinion - take it or leave it. Have you heard this disc ? What is your opinion ?
Marcus

[Kriton]

As I stated, I have always enjoyed the Schuman Quartets in their original form, but I found the transcriptions for strings very successful, and for me adding another dimension.The string orchestra makes for a richer sound, and in my opinion enhances these works. But it is only an opinion - take it or leave it. Have you heard this disc ? What is your opinion ?
Marcus

I was curious in what way you find the string quartets enhanced (I'm 'taking' your opinion - as said, I'm rather biased anyway...). I own the disc and am actually still waiting for a 2nd one, containing his 2nd string quartet - I definitely find it worthwhile listening to, BUT I like the originals much, much better. Schumann, for me, is just not the happy-go-lucky composer who would write a serenade for strings, and that's the impression I'm getting from the transcriptions. To me, it's Schumann, but really not. I find the string quartets highly original but, as is the case with many of his works, rather 'raw', and for me, the originality of the quartets is lost on a string orchestra. I agree with you the transcriptions add a dimension to the works, but they also take one away. Let me put it like this: in their new form they display a smoothness which doesn't really agree with me.

Tchaik's Souvenir de Fl seems to me to be a piece for string orchestra pretending to be chamber music.  Every recording seems to be overstretched. Possibly this is a tendency of anything bigger than a string quartet.

I don't think it automatically goes for any string ensemble bigger than a quartet, but in the case of this particular work I must say I agree. I own a couple of recordings of the work, and some are more 'overstretched' than others. Of course, Tchaikovsky wrote to Von Meck something like that he was experiencing considerable difficulties writing for 6 independent voices, and the piece was turning out to be more of a string serenade. But I'm not one to generally hold opinions of composers on their own works in very high regard, and think Tchaikovsky was being rather overcritical designating the piece a serenade.

Again, as a chamber music fanatic, I find the sextet versions of the Siegfried Idyll, Verklärte Nacht and the Souvenir de Florence much more pleasurable to listen to, although I do understand why they're (more?) often performed with string orchestra. Of course, to each his own. The remark about the Metamorphosen in my previous post by the way even goes for Mozart's famous sinfonia concertante, which I favor in sextet form. So I definitely think certain transcriptions enhance certain works - with me, it's just the other way round!