Who's afraid of Webern?

[Alan Howe]

....me, actually! But not his very early stuff, as it turns out. I decided to take the plunge and buy a just-reissued CD on Warner Apex of Giuseppe Sinopoli in Dresden conducting a programme of orchestral music, including Im Sommerwind which turns out to be a Gurrelieder-like riot of a tone poem. If you don't know this work, the CD's worth getting just to hear it...

[TerraEpon]

Only Webern I ever really liked was his Op. 1 Passacaglia, which is, similarly, in late romantic style.

[M. Henriksen]

Im Sommerwind is a most beautiful work in the late austro-german romantic tradition. Such a pity (in my opinion that is) that Webern changed his musical language, but continuing in the style of Im Sommerwind he might just have been one of many composers soon to be forgotten during the 20's and 30's. (And then of course revitalised on this forum!)

Morten

[eschiss1]

First I'd never heard of him, then I disliked him, now I like his music quite a bit (no surprise, but a fellow does want to stand up and be counted.) Some lovely songs and choral music especially.
I still haven't heard the early piano quintet, but intend to.

[Delicious Manager]

I always steer those 'afraid' of any given composer to approach the music in a logical way. In Webern's case this is fairly straightforward. The progression of his style from Im Sommerwind, through the Passacaglia and the Fünf Lieder Op 4 to the Five Pieces for String Quartet can be easily traced. Thereafter, the atonal works from Op 6 onwards lead inexorably to the serial compositions from the 1924 Kinderstück (without opus number) onwards. Quite often, tracing a composer's development in this way is far less 'scary' than plunging straight into, say, the Symphony Op 21 which, for an uninitiated listener, would cause a lot of head-scratching and puzzlement.

[Pengelli]

Composers like that are interesting to listen to occasionally. The trouble is,after a while, I always find myself working my way back to tonal music,again.
Berg's 'Lulu' is a good one,if you're not that mad about atonal music. It has an interesting,if rather gloomy plot,which you can hang onto,during all the atonal thumping & scraping. I remember the Dg set with Teresa Stratas. It had a rather attractive looking female on the front. I can't remember if it was Teresa Stratas,herself,but propping the old Lp box set up in front of me didn't half help. If only Anna Moffo had been into the second Viennese school!
Seriously,I remember quite enjoying it,(and the opera,too). Incidentally, I would whole heartedly recommend 'Delicious Managers' (how do you think of these nick names?) approach. But a little bit of Teresa,I mean Lulu,(not the pop singer,although she sounds a bit atonal!),might help.

[john_boyer]

I suppose talking about Webern and the Second Viennese School (un-romantic, sung composers) is a bit off topic for a forum dedicated to unsung romantics, but since the moderator has raised it...

Webern is an acquired taste, but one that is well worth the effort.  I have generally found that I like the SVS composers best in the period between the end of the their hyperchromatic, romantic works (say, Berg's Piano Sonata, Webern's aforementioned "Summer Wind", and Schoenberg's "Transfigured Night") around 1910 and their adoption of the dodecaphonic method in the early 1920's.   It's these freely atonal works (free even from dodecaphonic strictures) that I find most interesting.

For Webern, I would recommend the recording of songs that Christiane Oelze did for DG:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=212975&album_group=5


and especially the Emerson Quartet's recording of his works for string quartet, also from DG

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=7285


Many people don't know there is an early string quartet (D major, 1897) by Schoenberg that sounds for all the world like a pleasant mix of Dvorak and Brahms.  It's a remarkable work from beginning to end, giving not a hint of the Schoenberg to come.  In fact, it's hard to believe he wrote "Transfigured Night" only two years later.  There is a good recording by the Leipzig Quartet available from MDG:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=10855&name_role1=1&comp_id=2589&genre=70&bcorder=195&name_id=65660&name_role=4

I grant most of this will have little appeal to the members of this web site.  Even I listen to it only when I'm really in the mood, but sometimes one is really in the mood.  Alas, most of our unsung romantic crowd despise this music as much as the Second Viennese crowd despises unsung romantic music.  That's a pity, because there is room for both.  When asked who my favorite painters are, I quickly answer Bouguereau and Mondrian, even though the Bouguereau crowd hates Mondrian and vice versa!

[eschiss1]

I grant most of this will have little appeal to the members of this web site.  Even I listen to it only when I'm really in the mood, but sometimes one is really in the mood.  Alas, most of our unsung romantic crowd despise this music as much as the Second Viennese crowd despises unsung romantic music.  That's a pity, because there is room for both.  When asked who my favorite painters are, I quickly answer Bouguereau and Mondrian, even though the Bouguereau crowd hates Mondrian and vice versa!

As much as the Second Viennese Crowd despises unsung romantic music... ?
It's not much of an argument for me to point out that the Second Viennese crowd of his own day, Arnold Schoenberg, adored the music of Zemlinsky (his friend), Mahler (unsung after his death really, and his mentor), Reger (increasingly unsung as far as I know), among others. And much sung Romantic music too. (Qv for example the essays in "Style and Idea". And other places.)
Webern was a different kettle of fish I think as he got his later ideas from Renaissance techniques, really, among other reasons besides.
As to the 2nd Viennese Crowd of today, whether composers or listeners, there is such a thing? And don't confuse Darmstadt with 2nd Vienna School, of course. (Yes, there are fans of music of the 2nd Viennese School from Schoenberg and his circle to their students through those influenced by them (Krenek, perhaps) and beyond- but I wasn't aware our Saturday evening suppers in which we rail against the increasing popularity of Raff, Reinecke and Rufinatscha had been discovered. Drat.)

I would otherwise happily agree with your main point which reminds me of something from "Brahms the Progressive" I think it was - that once you could admire Brahms but not Wagner, or Wagner but not Brahms, but now, fortunately, we can admire and learn from both! (Schoenberg again.)
Eric

[john_boyer]

Eric,

You wrote:

As much as the Second Viennese Crowd despises unsung romantic music... ?
It's not much of an argument for me to point out that the Second Viennese crowd of his own day, Arnold Schoenberg, adored the music of Zemlinsky (his friend), Mahler (unsung after his death really, and his mentor), Reger (increasingly unsung as far as I know), among others. And much sung Romantic music too. (Qv for example the essays in "Style and Idea". And other places.)


I did not mean the members of the Second Viennese School disliked romantics.  I meant the followers of that school, those who view music as a form of inevitable progress (men like the late Alan Rich or Glenn Gould), tend to disparage romantic composers, especially the unsungs, unless those composers form part of a bridge to modernism (like Berlioz, Liszt, and Wagner).

I am familiar with Schoenberg’s admiration for Brahms (“Style and Idea” sits on my bookshelf).  Did you know, also, that Reger was the most often performed composer at Schoenberg’s Society for Private Performances?  Who would have guessed?

- John B.

[izdawiz]

Very few of Webern sticks to me, some good moments here and there .. from the same area or around there is Schoenberg'"s early romantic string orchestral work and 1 string Quartet  .. also Zemlinsky's 1st string Quartet & 2 Symphony,  ala'Romantic era Brahms Style.  and ..Heart on your sleeves romantics by Catorie, Russian Composer's Piano Trio 1st Movement. the Goldenweiser, Rostropovich version gets me the most.