Beethoven's symphonic contemporaries.

[John H White]

My question is: who was Beethoven's greatest symphonic contemporary? I refer to composers actively writing symphonies between the years 1790 and 1827. possible candidates, of course, include Schubert, Spohr, Eggert( who famously "scooped" Beethoven with 3 trombones in one of his symphonies before the latter could get his own 5th symphony out ),Wilms and Beethoven's pupil, Ferdinand Reas. I'd be interested to hear members' views on these and others that I must have left of of this short list. Furthermore, starting as far back as 1790 would include also the Haydn of the London symphonies.

[Alan Howe]

Schubert. Period.
However, if one excludes Schubert, then it's a difficult choice. Hmmmm....

[JimL]

Oh, there are plenty.  How about Friedrich Witt, for starters?

[eschiss1]

Other other-than-Schubert ones worth a lookhear may include Franz Johannes Gleißner (1761-1818 so more Mozart's generation actually), Friedrich Witt (1770-1836) (who I see JimL has mentioned), also Krommer, Czerny, Reicha, the Vranicky brothers of a recent thread, ... and some of those other usual suspects of music that we know in other spheres (Reicha and Danzi and Krommer from their wind, not their symphonic, music, e.g.) - and Vorisek e.g.?

Google Books (here for example is a list of interest to be found in that book) provides some preview pages of "The Symphony in Beethoven's Vienna" that provide some interesting context, some of these names and some information on their works. Including a symphony by Czerny that isn't one of the 6 that I think appear in Groves?- (in D major but not no.2 - Scherzo in the wrong place and mode (D minor), indeed none of the movement descriptions are right. Written, I think, around 1818 and earlier than his op.780 symphony no.1 in fact.) Greatest, though? For that question? (And for that question I'm not quite convinced it's Schubert... - I don't dislike his music but that doesn't mean my answer to that question becomes yes) - you've got me, though I'll give it some thinking.  (In quartets, in the last few, with Schubert- there I can see it. Not last-few-Beethoven-quartet level- practically nothing is, in my book - but very, very high.)

[Delicious Manager]

Beethoven himself had a very high opinion of both Cherubini and Rejcha (Reicha), both of whom wrote marvellous stuff - especially Rejcha, whose symphonies show a melodic and harmonic daring that were almost the equal of Beethoven.

[chill319]

Does anyone know of an accessible census of public orchestral concerts in Europe during those years? In terms of symphonies, who besides Haydn and Mozart was being played?

Schubert wasn't. Weber must have been. What do forum members think of the Weber symphonies?

Then there is Clementi. Following posts by members of this forum, I've become acquainted with that composer's later symphonies and find them to be exceptional works, as worthy as the one by Cherubini of which Toscanini was so fond.

We shouldn't overlook the overtures of Rossini, either, as they were repeatedly imitated by the young Schubert in his symphonies.

[eschiss1]

Does anyone know of an accessible census of public orchestral concerts in Europe during those years? In terms of symphonies, who besides Haydn and Mozart was being played?

For starters, one can skim, online (if one has access to it over Google Books) or in a library, the contemporaneous issues of the Allegemeine Musikalische Zeitung which have concert reports...

[khorovod]

I would put forward Mehul as worthy of mention at the least. I don't know if Weber's symphonies would have been that widely played, weren't they written for a patron's private orchestra and early works? I know Weber was pretty dismissive of them himself although I think they are both delightful. Not very symphonic and not even close to approaching Beethoven I think though, and the same for Reicha (IMHO) even though he is innovative sometimes (oftentimes?) the symphonies I have heard are more Classical than Beethoven's are.

[eschiss1]

I think at least two of Reicha's symphonies- in C minor and F major- may not have been published until 1983.  Recordings of the opus 41 in E-flat (is opus 42 also in E-flat a different symphony? I have seen conflicting claims on this point I believe...) have been several, those of the symphonies in C minor, F minor and F major, one each I believe.  I wouldn't be surprised if it's some of these last three that show the greater tendencies toward musical innovation (if not strictly speaking Romanticism).
Eric

[John H White]

Many thanks, gentlemen, for all your interesting replies. It would seem that Witt must have been a pretty capable composer, for his "Jena" Symphony to have been attributed to the young Beethoven for many years. I'm also intrigued by the discovery of an early symphony by Czerny. However, nobody seems to have mentioned Arriaga, Fesca or Schneider yet. Spohr is an interesting case. His and Beethoven's first symphonies seem to be firmly rooted in the Haydn/Mozart classical tradition. However, comparing their second and subsequent symphonies is like comparing chalk and cheese. I would say that Spohr was more innovative but that Beethoven's innovations were the more successful. I suspect that Rossini, whom  Beethoven appears to have admired nearly as much as he did Cherubini, would also have been a contender here, had he entered the symphonic field.
   Another question that interests me is: did anyone else first substitute the minuet for a scherzo in a symphony before Beethoven? If not, then who was the first to follow Beethoven's example?

[thalbergmad]

I like just about everything by Woelfl and recall one of his symphonies that has been recorded as being in the Beethoven vein, but lacking the OOMPH.

Thal

[Syrelius]

Franz Berwald was born in 1796 (one year before Schubert), so he was a contemporary of Beethoven too. His mature symphonies are contemporary to the ones of Schumann and Mendelssohn, but his first symphony was written in 1820. Unfortunately, only the first movement survives (or most of it). It is available on Hyperion.

[JimL]

If I'm not mistaken, besides the 12 string symphonies, Mendelssohn's 1st for full orchestra also falls within the lifetime of Beethoven, albeit roughly contemporary with B9, with which it cannot compare.

[John H White]

That's most interesting that both Berwald and Mendelssohn were both symphonically active during Beethoven's lifetime. Unfortunately, Franz Lachner didn't get his 1st symphony out until 1828.

[JimL]

If I'm not mistaken, Mendelssohn S1 was composed when he was 15, which would be 1824.  If not, it was within a year or two.  I think it was composed in, or for a trip to London.