Unsung Composers

The Web Site => Suggestions & Problems => Topic started by: Alan Howe on Sunday 01 October 2017, 20:55

Title: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 01 October 2017, 20:55
...or rather not playing them. Both of the recent Nimbus CDs I have bought will not play in my TEAC CD player; however, my computer plays them and so does my NAD CD player. Any idea what might be going on? I have been in correspondence with Nimbus about this, but they have no idea what the issue might be. No other labels seem to be affected in this way.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Sunday 01 October 2017, 22:17
I believe that most, and maybe all, CDs manufactured by Nimbus are CD-Rs, like those burned on a domestic computer. Commercial CDs are more commonly mass produced from glass masters. It's very rare for the latter to be incompatible with any playback equipment, whereas CD-Rs are prone to unpredictable playback problems and also deterioration over time. There is plenty of online discussion about these issues and the disadvantages of CD-Rs, but they are cheaper to produce in small numbers. Nimbus make CDs  (http://www.wyastone.co.uk/nimbus-disc-print)for several small classical labels, and also handle distribution for them on a small-batch print-on-demand basis, so I imagine that the use of CD-Rs is an essential economy. I'd advise anyone buying a recording from Nimbus or any of the labels they distribute to make a lossless (FLAC) copy of the original. See this thread  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21660.msg706908.html#msg706908)elsewhere.

The labels currently distributed by Nimbus are: Atoll, Cameo Classics, CRD Records, Hallé, Lyrita, Saydisc, Sterling, Red Priest, and Retrospective.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 01 October 2017, 22:28
I asked whether they were any differences between Nimbus' manufacturing methods and that of other labels and they said there wasn't. Clearly, however, there are. Thanks for clarifying, Mark: I can actually understand your explanation!

Wonder whether the forthcoming Beliczay/Sterling release will be affected?
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: TerraEpon on Monday 02 October 2017, 02:35
I'd note there's a huge difference between the type of CDRs Nimbus uses and that one would use at home. While it's true that there can be issues (as you've noticed) they are still top quality as far as CDRs go....

And I imagine anything from Sterling will be CDR -- the recent Raff 2-fer was one.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Monday 02 October 2017, 07:45
QuoteWonder whether the forthcoming Beliczay/Sterling release will be affected?
It doesn't say so on the CD, but I'm sure it's a CD-R.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 02 October 2017, 11:40
It looks as though the problem's my TEAC player. More news when I have it...
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Monday 02 October 2017, 13:35
In my limited experience, there's little that can be done, Alan. Commercial equipment is designed to play optimally "Red Book" glass-mastered CDs, not CD-R's. It probably says more for the quality and refined tolerances of your TEAC player that it won't play these CDs.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: dhibbard on Monday 02 October 2017, 16:13
I recently purchased a CD from Amazon (their "made on demand").  When I opened it, it seemed strange... the booklet was not published, but copied on a color copier.. ( I could see the toner smudges)  also.. the CD was in fact a CD-R.. it had that blueish tint and had a sticker with the info on it (not printed on like manufactured CDs).  I had similar problems in playback mode..   I purchased a "used" copy that was really manufactured by Sterling about 10 years ago.   ... warning.. if it says Made on Demand... think twice!!
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Monday 02 October 2017, 16:21
Unlike the various "made on demand" suppliers, where you can be fairly sure that discs are made on a one-off basis, and the only economical option is to make a CD-R, the issue here is that the CDs made and distributed by Nimbus give no clue in advertising, packaging or on the discs themselves that they are in fact CD-Rs. I only became aware of it because I was peripherally involved a couple of years ago in the discussions between Nimbus and a label looking to use their manufacture/distribution package.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 02 October 2017, 16:49
My intention is to audition a new CD player of another make before buying, i.e. to establish whether it will play these particular CD-Rs.

Is there anyone out there who has recently purchased a Nimbus CD and has a CD player that will play it without any problems? If so, what CD player are you using?

Example: the Marantz CD6006 is advertised as being capable of playing CD-Rs:
https://www.marantz.co.uk/DocumentMaster/UK/CD6006_UK_SE.pdf (https://www.marantz.co.uk/DocumentMaster/UK/CD6006_UK_SE.pdf)
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: TerraEpon on Tuesday 03 October 2017, 02:02
I only use my computers' drives and never had any problems with any "professional" CDRs outside of a 2001 (!) disc from Nimbus which I believe got scratched over the years.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: jdperdrix on Tuesday 03 October 2017, 10:58
I believe most CD players now support mp3 and flac formats plus some others. Which seems to imply that they actually can play back CD-R and even CD-RW. Anyway, this should be specified by the manufacturer on its website.
Am I wrong?
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Tuesday 03 October 2017, 12:08
I'm no technical expert, but I understand that the basic problem is that a batch of CD-Rs is prone to inconsistencies which a batch manufactured from a glass master don't exhibit. For example, I make 60 or so identical CD-Rs every six months for a choir I sing with. Of these I can virtually guarantee that two or three will refuse to play on someone's equipment, but it's different equipment and different people each time, and the duff CDs will still play on other people's machines. This despite the fact that I duplicate them all on a CD duplicator from the same master.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Tuesday 03 October 2017, 18:08
May one assume that commercial CD-Rs will not be so inconsistent as far as playback is concerned?

This, incidentally, was Wyastone's (helpful) reply to my phone query of yesterday:

Following on from our telephone conversation yesterday, I spoke to our technical department and they have confirmed that the only players which we seems to have issues playing our CDR's is the older TEAC products and a very high end Sony player.

The majority of newer systems now have the ability to play most formats such as CDR's MP3 and WAV files. If you wanted to stay with the TEAC brand, the newer CD-RW890 model certainly has the ability to play CDR's and has the option for the aux / headphone cable. Another option is the Pioneer X-HM16-B Hi-Fi Micro System.


Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Tuesday 03 October 2017, 22:37
That seems reasonable enough if it's also borne out by TEAC themselves.

QuoteMay one assume that commercial CD-Rs will not be so inconsistent as far as playback is concerned?
I have no idea if that's the case, but there seem to be plenty of online complaints about Nimbus CD-Rs.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 04 October 2017, 14:16
The latest reply from Wyastone reads as follows with regard to the Marantz CD6006 player:

I sent your email onto our technical department and they assure me that you should have no issues playing our CDR's on this model.

Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 04 October 2017, 15:13
I suppose what strikes me is that they wouldn't have to jump through all these hoops if they just produced regular CDs.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 04 October 2017, 17:29
Absolutely.

When I spoke to MDT (who had supplied me with the Nimbus CD) the other day, they told me that short-run productions on CD-R were likely to be the way the industry will go in the future - at least as far as the smaller labels are concerned.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 04 October 2017, 18:24
I'm sure they're right. It certainly made economic sense for one small classical label I know quite well. There is evidence that CD-Rs don't last as long as regular CDs, so I always make a FLAC backup of any which I buy (very few now as I get most of my music digitally).
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: arpeggio on Thursday 05 October 2017, 11:15
This would appear to indicate limited print runs. If you are reproducing less than 500 (and in many cases, less than 1000) the replication route, resulting in conventional commercial CDs, won't be available to you; it will have to be duplication, and that is done with CD-Rs.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 05 October 2017, 11:54
After consulting a local(ish) hi-fi retailer, I was recommended the Onkyo C7030 player on the basis that if it won't play the CDRs in question, I can return it. The delivery date is Monday 9th, so I await the results with some trepidation...
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 09 October 2017, 17:44
...and I'm glad to say that the Onkyo machine plays the Wyastone-produced CDs absolutely fine. Phew...
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Monday 09 October 2017, 19:38
Oh good. I'd still make a FLAC backup, just to be on the safe side.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: TerraEpon on Tuesday 10 October 2017, 02:28
I have a FLAC version of every CD I own....in fact, I only even listen to the actual CD once nowadays.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Tuesday 10 October 2017, 17:58
How do you listen to your music - on a laptop, iPod, phone, PC? Using headphones or loudspeakers?
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: TerraEpon on Wednesday 11 October 2017, 01:53
PC using Sennheiser 598 headphones.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 11 October 2017, 07:46
Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Sandflyer on Thursday 22 March 2018, 10:20
I duly read the 120 day warning, but since I've only joined yesterday, I have some catching up to do... :)
I only wish to correct (?) some information posted above:

Yes, most, if not all CD players have the ability of playing mp3 and WMA files (from a CDR or through a USB slot), however I'm fairly certain that most cannot play lossless files (FLAC, WAV) And even if they do, it's almost certainly not gapless playback.

However, most Bluray players do offer playback of most audio files, but again as far as I know, not gapless.

In recent years I've become a huge fan of streamers (i.e. devices that play all kinds of audio files and internet streams). Streamers are designed to play audio files and all offer gapless playback. Where in the past I burned my broadcast recordings to CDR, I now convert original recordings directly to FLAC to play through my streamer.
All CDRs will fail eventually. The playing surface is sensitive to light and even if your shelves are not exposed to direct sunlight, CDRs can still fail.

Apologies if the above is obvious.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: dhibbard on Thursday 22 March 2018, 14:34
I had an interesting experience... I recently bought a "new" CD from Amazon and didn't realize that when I opened it, it was actually a CD-R.
Then I read this in fine print on the product description:

When sold by Amazon.com, this product will be manufactured on demand using CD-R recordable media. Amazon.com's standard return policy will apply

and of course, the booklet was reproduced on a color copier and there was nothing in the booklet.    Just be warned!!
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 22 March 2018, 19:08
What was this CD? More details, please!
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: adriano on Friday 23 March 2018, 06:14
Yes, some of the Guild and Sterling CDs were also CDRs...
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: dhibbard on Friday 23 March 2018, 15:12
Alan  here is the link 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006TLIMZO/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_13?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

actually it wasn't a CD but a CD-R 
Aleksandar Raychev, Orchestral Works: Symphony No.2

Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 23 March 2018, 16:13
Well, there's a link on the page that explains the situation, so you shouldn't have been surprised! And, obviously the page actually states: When sold by Amazon.com, this product will be manufactured on demand using CD-R recordable media. Amazon.com's standard return policy will apply.

In any case, the point of this thread is to identify problems with playing CD-Rs. So...
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: adriano on Friday 23 March 2018, 18:13
Suppose that some Arkiv Production re-issues are also CDR's. Today they look very similar to real CDs. I am holding Arkiv's DG reissue of Orff's "De Temporum Fine Comoedia" - which looks very much indeed like a CDR, and just one with a very primitive front label...
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: TerraEpon on Saturday 24 March 2018, 01:13
Quote from: hadrianus on Friday 23 March 2018, 18:13
Suppose that some Arkiv Production re-issues are also CDR's. Today they look very similar to real CDs. I am holding Arkiv's DG reissue of Orff's "De Temporum Fine Comoedia" - which looks very much indeed like a CDR, and just one with a very primitive front label...

Pretty sure all ArkivMusic CDs, ever, have been CD-Rs.
Title: Re: Playing Nimbus CDs
Post by: hyperdanny on Wednesday 18 July 2018, 11:50
yes it's correct, I have owned several Arkiv cd's and they were all CD-R's..the company was always clear about it.
I have to say that the quality , both in reproduction problems and sound quality, is superior to the wyastone product, which I do not like.
For example I had the Mehul set manufactured by wyastone, then I was able to get the original release (not CD-R) and both the smoothness of reproduction and the sound quality are superior.

Technically , CD-R and "real" CD's are not the same: the physical cd's are of a different quality , and the mastering process is different.
I so dlslike them that I tried hard to substitute them all with the real thing: for example I was able to re-buy almost all of the Arkiv from Japan in SHM-CD form (special high-quality material & low-error rate Japanese CD's) ..so far the only Arkiv CD-R left in my collection is the Stenhammar-Jarvi set.