Well, listening to Symphony No.2 has naturally led me back to Rufinatscha's extraordinary 1st Symphony composed in 1834. Its opening movement is full off harmonic surprises, rhythmic shocks - and, like No.2, the more one listens to it, the more one realises that, apart from the high seriousness that characterises the later symphonies (i.e. 3, 4 and 5), Rufinatscha's compositional character is already fully recognisable. Try the unendliche Melodie of the slow movement, for example. It's simply glorious.
So, who else between, say, Beethoven and Brahms, wrote five symphonies of such stature? (I'm omitting Raff as being essentially of a later generation; and members of this forum will know that I don't rate Rubinstein, although he was undoubtedly influential.) Mendelssohn? Very nearly - although his early C minor work is nothing like as mature as Rufinatscha's 1st. Spohr? Well, I don't think there are five great symphonies among his output of ten. Lachner? Sadly, we simply don't have the information, although I'm bound to say that his music has nothing approaching the originality of Rufinatscha's. Kalliwoda? There's some good stuff among his symphonies, but they are very much of a muchness stylistically - which cannot be said of Rufinatscha. Gade? Certainly not, much as I love his Leipzig-tradition later symphonies. Gouvy? There's an exceptionally interesting composer - and his symphonies have great dynamism and spirit. But again, they're essentially extensions of the conservative tradition, whereas Rufinatscha's five breath different air altogether.
To my mind the only composer who equals Rufinatscha in symphonic originality and approaches him in productivity in this period is Berwald - and he only wrote four such works.
In my view Rufinatscha is undoubtedly the finest composer of symphonies to have emerged from the mists of 19th century history over the past few years. If members of this forum have yet to sample his music, I urge you to do so without delay. These are the essential discs to acquire:
Symphonies 1 & 4 (formerly 5): http://shop.tiroler-landesmuseen.at/cd-dvd/klingende-kostbarkeiten-aus-tirol/klingende-kostbarkeiten-aus-tirol-43.html (http://shop.tiroler-landesmuseen.at/cd-dvd/klingende-kostbarkeiten-aus-tirol/klingende-kostbarkeiten-aus-tirol-43.html)
Symphony No.2: http://shop.tiroler-landesmuseen.at/cd-dvd/klingende-kostbarkeiten-aus-tirol/klingende-kostbarkeiten-aus-tirol-48.html (http://shop.tiroler-landesmuseen.at/cd-dvd/klingende-kostbarkeiten-aus-tirol/klingende-kostbarkeiten-aus-tirol-48.html)
Symphony No.3: http://shop.tiroler-landesmuseen.at/cd-dvd/musikmuseum/musikmuseum21.html (http://shop.tiroler-landesmuseen.at/cd-dvd/musikmuseum/musikmuseum21.html)
Symphony No.5 (formerly 6): http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rufinatscha-Orchestral-BBC-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp/B004Q2TWP2/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1419638383&sr=1-1&keywords=rufinatscha (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rufinatscha-Orchestral-BBC-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp/B004Q2TWP2/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1419638383&sr=1-1&keywords=rufinatscha)
Alan,
Do you know if the Tyrolean CDs are the orchestral versions or the 4-hands reductions I believe they did? (My German is not up to understanding their web-site but hopefully if these are orchestral versions they will be able to understand an e-mail from me in English??
Cheers
Richard
PS Happy Xmas to you, Mark and all UC forum members
All the CDs for which I've provided links are the orchestral versions.
Best wishes, Richard!
Alan,
Because of the holiday, I am unable to get a reply to my e-mail (about buying Rufinatscha CDs) until early Jan. Do you know when the special offer on their prices ends - will I miss the boat if I have to wait until then? (I can't read German to navigate their web-site to order directly).
Cheers
Richard
If you tell me what you want, Richard, I'll try to help you out. Please send me a personal message via the website. I could even talk you through the ordering process over the phone...
No need to worry, by the way, if you don't get an email confirmation. I don't seem to have received one when I put in my order.
I have placed two orders with Tirol-Landesmuseen recently. I received no email confirmation for the first order but the CD arrived today (Rufinatscha Sym 3). For the second order (Rufinatscha Sym 2), I have received an email confirmation but the CD has not yet been despatched. The way they acknowledge orders is a bit hit and miss but they do send out the CDs so I am not worried if I don't get an email confirmation. I have previously ordered 6 CDs from them and I received them all - fairly quickly I might add.!There was no need to order Rufi Sym 1 as I already had it along with Symphonies 5 and 6 (old numbering). Very pleased that Rufinatscha is again getting a lot of attention on UC!
We'll be interested to read what you think of the 3rd Symphony, Dennis.
Folks,
Just to let you know that I have received an e-mail confirmation for the symphonies 1-4 CDs I have just ordered (yesterday - many thanks to Alan for his help over this). Looking forward to their receipt. As the e-mail was so quick, it must be automated, so I wonder if there was a hiccup in giving your e-mail address (although I accept it could just as easily be their web-site instead).
Cheers
Richard
Glad you've received confirmation, Richard. Now for the CDs themselves...
I would suggest Ferdinand Ries ... To me, much more interesting than Rufinatscha.
But this is a thread about Rufinatscha. I also like Ries too (very different from Rufinatscha, though) - why not start a new thread about his symphonies?
I venture to suggest that Ries' symphonies, while exceedingly interesting and enjoyable, hardly compete with those of Rufinatscha (or Berwald) for originality. Are they not too tied to their Beethovenian models for that?
I'm not sure originality is the reed on which I would want to break my hand here, but then I find it overrated, as an aim certainly and as a consequence too (and I say this as someone whose musical tastes are not even especially "reactionary", I think.) (And while Berwald does things very few composers had done before him, that does not seem his chief merit. We don't discuss Eggert much even when we're not talking about just this particular period, and formally and otherwise his symphonic music is quite original... - actually, if it weren't that he were outside the period we're talking about, and that he wrote only 4 known symphonies, less than the 5 you're looking for- ... of course, so did Berwald, but who's counting; and I suppose there are other reasons for supposing Gouvy's to be insufficiently competitive - then I would have brought in Eggert with much more serious élan...)
With Rufinatscha, originality is a fact of life. It just hits you straight between the ears. Once you've heard his symphonies, you think: where did this come from? Of course, originality is not the be-all and end-all, otherwise I wouldn't be such a Reinecke fan (for want of a better example). But there's no denying that Rufinatscha is simply different - especially in his symphonies...
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Wednesday 07 January 2015, 22:42
But this is a thread about Rufinatscha. I also like Ries too (very different from Rufinatscha, though) - why not start a new thread about his symphonies?
Because the question was asked, "who else between, say, Beethoven and Brahms, wrote five symphonies of such stature", and I am suggesting an answer.
Actually, there is a far more obvious answer, which is Schubert, who I would suggest is the main influence on Rufinatscha, along with Schumann and Mendelssohn. And indeed, Mendelssohn also wrote five symphonies.
Schubert - symphonies 5, 8 and 9 at most, I think, given the bounding conditions.
I don't hear any influence on Rufinatscha from either Schumann or Mendelssohn. Beethoven: yes. Schubert: possibly, although the Unfinished wasn't performed until 1865.
Schubert is really a symphonic contemporary of Beethoven. Only his 9th (1825-6) post-dates Beethoven 9 (1824). This is essentially true of Ries too: only his Op.181 (1835) post-dates Beethoven 9.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Sunday 11 January 2015, 19:34
I don't hear any influence on Rufinatscha from either Schumann or Mendelssohn. Beethoven: yes. Schubert: possibly, although the Unfinished wasn't performed until 1865.
Schubert is really a symphonic contemporary of Beethoven. Only his 9th (1825-6) post-dates Beethoven 9 (1824). This is essentially true of Ries too: only his Op.181 (1835) post-dates Beethoven 9.
Rufinatscha's harmonic language has strong echoes of Schubert, and he would not have needed to have heard the last two symphonies to catch an influence.
To me Beethoven is the stronger influence, although the expansiveness is definitely more Schubertian.
btw: in Rufinatscha's b minor Symphony (No.5) - Scherzo - you can hear some kind of anticipation of Bruckner !
Thanks, Lucanuscervus. It would be of great interest to hear the views of an expert on the stature of Rufinatscha's symphonies. Wenn auf Deutsch, würde ich gerne übersezten!
Alan, whilst I reckon that alongside Lachners 5th & 8th symphonies,Rufinatscha's last 2 symphonies are amongst the finest works in that genre produced between the Beethoven/Schubert era and those of Brahms & Bruckner, I wouldn't say that his earlier symphonies were up to that standard. No 1 sounds in its opening movement very much like Berwald in style. ( Just as Mahler 1 sounds very much like Hans Rot 1).
Quite honestly, I think Rufinatscha's 2nd Symphony is inferior to his first one but, with the newly reconstructed and recorded No 3, we see quite a leap forward although, in my humble opinion, not quite up to the standard of Nos 5 & 6 ( or should I say, 4 & 5? ) Anyway, just what does greatness consist of in a symphony or a composer for that matter? Rufiatscha's last 2 symphonhies contain some beautiful melodies rarely met with in any works of this type but, if greatness consists of a really thorough mastery of counterpoint, I would say that Lachner wins hands down!
Now I must have my parachute ready as I await being shot down min flames! :)
Parachute at the ready, John? ;)
QuoteNo 1 sounds in its opening movement very much like Berwald in style
It must be the other way round, I think. Rufinatscha 1 and 2 were both written before any of Berwald's completed symphonies.
Personally, I can't hear the connection at all, but I probably have cloth ears...
Quotebut, with the newly reconstructed and recorded No 3, we see quite a leap forward although, in my humble opinion, not quite up to the standard of Nos 5 & 6 ( or should I say, 4 & 5? )
I'd say Nos 3, 4 and 5 (new numbering) form a trio of very fine-to-great symphonies.
Quoteif greatness consists of a really thorough mastery of counterpoint, I would say that Lachner wins hands down
You may well be right about Lachner's mastery of counterpoint. The problem with Lachner ultimately is the material he's working with: in my view it just isn't of sufficient interest to sustain what he does with it.
QuoteI think Rufinatscha's 2nd Symphony is inferior to his first one
I don't agree at all. It's very different in tone. I've found it's the symphony one has to listen to most to 'get it'.
So, there we are: a good old UC disagreement. But I'd never have listened to Lachner or Spohr (nor appreciated the riches of their music) without your prompting, John, so I am forever in your debt.
It looks as if we'll have to agree to disagree Alan. However, I'm sure we all owe you a great debt for introducing us to the music of Rufinatscha, particularly the last 2 symphonies.
With regard to Spohr, like many others of his lesser known colleagues, his output is somewhat patchy, but when he is good he is very good., as in the 2nd & 5th symphonies, the Nonet and the 5th piano trio. One thing about him is that he was always ready to try something new, even when it didn't quite work out, as with his 4th and 7th symphonies.
By the way, I'll take your tip and listen to Rufinatscha's 2nd symphony a few more times and then go back to No 1 to re-assess them both.
Great to disagree with you, John! And thanks again for all your insights.
I think it would be a stretch of the imagination that either Rufinatscha had access to Berwald's works or vice versa. Although neither would depend on performances to learn what was being composed elsewhere, but on published works and piano reductions, is it likely that either would have even heard of the other, given that neither were musical celebrities in their day?
Likely, no, but possible, yes; Rufinatscha's published works received notices - and sometimes detailed descriptions (as with the reduction of his D major symphony) - in contemporary music journals, and his pupils may(?) have spoken about him to others - it would be nice in principle to have at least somewhat more detailed biographies of all the people involved, I think, not just the somewhat more famous (Brüll, e.g.) of them, and translations/annotated editions of their correspondence as has been done professionally for other composers. But that if done at all (if one agrees that it would be a good thing) would be a matter for the future :)
I still can't hear any connection between Rufinatscha and Berwald anyway. The former's sensibility is clearly Austrian; the latter's is Nordic.
I've now listened to Rufinatscha's first 2 symphonies a number of times and I now give them equal rating, so I must take back what I said earlier about No 2. However, I still think the jerkiness in the opening movement in No1 bears a resemblance to that which tends to characterise Berwald's symphonies.
Then it's a coincidental resemblance, I think...
Just wondering whether anyone has encountered this remarkable work for the first time recently...?
Still haven't heard it yet, sorry!
I did..I bought the cd only last October: I have to say that I absolutely love the 1st, it gives me great listening pleasure.
Along with the 5th and 6th, (old numbers) it's my favorite..
I have read very perceptive observations here: yes there's a Schubertian atmosphere, but to me the "misplaced" accents right at the beginning, and a number of other twists, are positively Schumannian. All the same, you discern an individual voice,.. it's a very interesting, memorable and lovable piece..not at all a mean achievement for an "Erste Studium"!