John Knowles Paine

[chill319]

Fry in the 1850s, Bristow in the 1860s, Paine in the 1870s: with each the composition of symphonies by an American became more assured, despite the general absence of colleagues who could provide stimulating competition in this rarified genre.

[eschiss1]

always tend to suspect that that was more a near-absence though and am curious about the exceptions. (and restricting too, reluctantly, to numbered non-programmatic symphonies, interested though I still am in Heinrich e.g. Admittedly this would partially discount Fry's symphonic output too, though not meaning to.)

When did Daniel Gregory Mason write his 3 symphonies again? Did William Mason write any? Arthur Bird's is from the latter 1880s so too late for this particular joust - still, haven't heard it and would like to...

(Somewhat suspicious of claims of the sort one often sees, not just on Wikipedia- that a person, e.g. Fry, was the first born in America to compose for large symphony orchestra- and that particular phrase, specifically from the article on Fry in Wikipedia, is ambiguous anyway- first in order of birth? first in order of publication of first composition using large symphony orchestra? - but one digresses...)
Eric

[TerraEpon]

Well everyone knows that Beethoven was the first to use trombones in a symphony...

[chill319]

The earliest American symphony known to me is the Symphony in E-flat Major by Charles Hommann, recently published in the MUSA series. I have not heard the symphony, but based on some surprisingly strong string quartets by Hommann from the 1830s, it is probably no accident that the symphony shares its key with the Eroica.

[JimL]

Well everyone knows that Beethoven was the first to use trombones in a symphony...

Oh, no, not again!  You know that it was Eggert who did it the year before, right?  Beethoven was, however, the first to use trombones, piccolo and contrabassoon at the same time in a symphony.

[TerraEpon]

Whoosh....

[eschiss1]

JimL- I took TerraEpon as using "everyone knows", erm, sarcastically, especially given my complaints just preceding.

[Lionel Harrsion]

Well everyone knows that Beethoven was the first to use trombones in a symphony...

Oh, no, not again!  You know that it was Eggert who did it the year before, right?  Beethoven was, however, the first to use trombones, piccolo and contrabassoon at the same time in a symphony.

A trombonist friend of mine told me once that Michael Haydn got there first but I don't know if that's true.

[Josh]

Ranging far afield here, but hopefully people find this kind of thing interesting. Michael Haydn did compose a work sometimes called his "Trombone Symphony"; I have it on a CD where it is called a Divertimento in D Major.  It's like 8 or 9 or 10 movements long, and it's more properly a serenade that features a couple of different instruments as soloists, including the trombone. The "Trombone Symphony" is concocted by yanking three movements out of this serenade/divertimento.  It's just like when they pull two movements from a Leopold Mozart serenade to create his semi-famous Trombone Concerto, and another two form his slightly more famous Trumpet Concerto... from the same serenade!  So, to sum up... not really, no.  There is, however, a 1768 Symphony (yes, supposedly really a symphony) by Joseph Krottendorfer: 2 oboes, 8 trumpets (!), 2 trombones, strings.  As far as I know, this has yet to be recorded; I wonder if the score exists.

Sorry about the big tangent, but 18th century music is more my thing, and I can't help myself.

In any case, I obtained the Paine CDs a couple of years ago, and was utterly amazed by the 1st symphony, and then a hint disappointed by the 2nd. Strangely enough, the 2nd has started to grow on my after revisiting it recently, especially the 2nd movement (scherzo). While it does seem to ramble a little, I find the rambling through the core of the scherzo to be relaxing and pretty now, whereas on first listen I was a touch bored by it (I only listened to it once all the way through until this month!)  The 3rd movement contains some particularly interesting material, it just wanders on so long that it kind of frustrates me that several fantastic passages of music are dragged down by being surrounded with minutes of orchestral lethargy. I really think the 3rd movement could be a true gem, if Paine had heavily condensed it.

I think when I talked about it the first time, I said that it felt to me like Paine was trying too hard to emulate what was going on at the time with the big symphonists. As I mentioned above, my opinion of it has gotten slightly higher recently, but I still kind of get the same impression. Not that there's anything wrong with wanting to be current; I just don't think there's anything wrong with looking backwards, either, and maybe that was more Paine's strong suit. Then again, I only have 3 works of his in my entire collection, so that's not enough to make such sweeping statements.  I don't like the idea of screwing around with composers' music, but at the same time, I'd be so tempted to endorse the practice here; I think a really excellent symphony could be created by chopping Paine's 2nd down to size. In all 3 works I have, the guy showed real flashes of talent and skill, and I'd like to hear more.

Speaking of rambling... sorry.

[Alan Howe]

No need to apologise, Josh. That was a very interesting ramble actually!

[monafam]

Ironically, in my pursuit of free books to read on my Kindle, I happened upon this book prior to the JKP discussion, but I just started reading his section.   

I find it fairly entertaining, and maybe there are some other unsungs discussed in this book that could be featured in future posts!   

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1533759&pageno=46

[chill319]

A score of Paine's Tempest has recently become available on IMSLP. http://imslp.org/wiki/The_Tempest,_Op.31_(Paine,_John_Knowles)

[chill319]

Paine wrote a handful of chamber music pieces. Three are collected on an old Northeastern CD, NR219, which I've been enjoying this July afternoon. The Violin Sonata, op. 24 (1875/rev 1905) is the standout here, a relatively short but substantial, dramatic work in which Paine really has something to say. The Romanza and Humoresque, op. 30 for cello and piano is a pleasant repackaging of rather commonplace musical ideas. Despite the similarity of title, the Larghetto and Humoresque for piano trio, op. 32 (1877/rev ca 1897) is a much darker and more forceful work than opus 30. Like the violin sonata, it communicates something fresh and dare I say inspired. To the best of my knowledge, none of these works have been published.

[britishcomposer]

Op. 32 has been broadcast a few years ago by some German radio station. It was announced as "Piano Trio op.32".  I never questioned this though I thought it a very strange sort of trio - along 19th century standards anyway...

[eschiss1]

erm, actually, all 3 have. "Three chamber works for piano and strings", ed. by John C. Schmidt contains opp. 24, 30 and 32. Published 2 decades ago (1991) by A-R editions.