Composers: the Muse departs?

[TerraEpon]

Well, quite a few of them have been performed and recorded, and some of them are quite lovely.  Some of them are quite a hoot as well.

Not to mention Respighi's orchestration of some in La Boutique Fantasque and Rossiniana (and other composers as well)

[alberto]

Among the other composers (orchestrating Rossini "late" pieces) mention at least to Britten (Matinées Musicales and Soirées Musicales).

[Peter1953]

What a great, great pity that the very talentful composer Frederic Cliffe so soon stopped writing wonderful music. I can hardly believe that he suddenly lost his creativeness. Did other, modern composers criticize his musical output by stating that his music was too old-fashioned?

[Jimfin]

I quite agree about Cliffe: from the little I've heard (the Violin Concerto, the Symphony no. 1 and 'Cloud and Sunshine') I am blown away by him. Goodness knows why he stopped

[chill319]

One of the refreshing aspects of this forum is the evidence of close listening that informs so many of the comments. In contrast, much discussion of classical music in some online forums smacks of little more than received opinion. In this spirit, I'd like to encourage friends to try to ignore biography when listening to late music, reading late writings, viewing late paintings, and so on.

One needn't be aged to have one's late works dismissed as evidence of decline. Criticism during the first third of the 20th century often repeated the truism that Chopin's late nocturnes and mazurkas are products of enervation, and his cello sonata was almost entirely ignored. More recently, an echo chamber consigned Schumann's late chamber works, concertos, and choral works to the realm of the uninteresting, even though the composer was vigorously reinventing his compositional technique in them.

For longer lived composers, particularly those 'romantics' who wanted their music to be 'about something' more than sonic surfaces, received opinions have been no less misleading. In the case of Bax, he brought it upon himself with his own comments, perhaps. But while no orchestral work after Symphony 7 matches the earlier ones in invention and imagination, his cello sonata, piano trio, and a handful of other works from the 1940s display unflagging musical powers.

Many members of this forum surely recall the disdain in which all Rachmaninov's works after the Great War -- save the Rhapsody -- were long held.

The case of Roy Harris, where decades of writers echoed the scurrilous claim that his wife Johanna composed the later works, is particularly unfortunate. Symphonies 11 and 12 stand in relationship to the earlier ones much as Vaughan Williams's Symphonies 8 and 9 stand to his earlier works. VW is the greater composer, to be sure, but Harris stands tall as well and is clearly pursuing different ends in the late works.

Few composers reinvent themselves as thoroughly as did Stravinsky and Janacek. That does not mean, however, that other late composers are attempting to repeat their earlier successes. Unfortunately, listeners confronted with a still recognizable style are all too often disappointed when the works do not go where earlier ones went. Thus begin all too many stories of decline.

There is no question that as their bodies decline, so, generally, do many composers' powers of concentration. Yet there's also no question that age brings new perspectives that require a different, perhaps subtler means of expression.  If it will help us follow music that proceeds cogently to unfamiliar places,  I suggest we err on the side of biographical ignorance when listening to late works by composers.

[eschiss1]

(For example) (Robert) Schumann's first violin sonata affects me too much for me to consign ''it'' to a dustbin; in a good performance it always seems to come across as a most personal as well as well-done work... apologies for having nothing better to say on the subject just now; chill319's reply/post seems worth further thought in my opinion...

[Jimfin]

It used to be received wisdom that Walton's works went into decline after the war, but I think it is fair to say that most people would question that assumption these days. Personally I think that Walton is yet to be appreciated for his full worth (though one could hardly call him 'unsung')

[ahinton]

It used to be received wisdom that Walton's works went into decline after the war, but I think it is fair to say that most people would question that assumption these days. Personally I think that Walton is yet to be appreciated for his full worth (though one could hardly call him 'unsung')

What went into decline waw Walton himself, though not as early as the immediate aftermath of WWII - the Second Symphony has a whole lot going for it, for example, and that dates from the 1960s - but this thread is about the Muse departing and I rather think that this is sadly what happened with him; he tried to start a Third Symphony (on the encouragement of Previn) but it came to nothing. Whether he is sufficiently appreciated I cannot be sure, but he's undoubtedly not as often performed even as Tippett is these days.

[Jimfin]

And yet (unlike Tippett) he is well served by the record companies, Chandos having recorded every last bar he composed (well, I'm sure someone will unearth something more, but...), and the concertos in particular are available in all kinds of versions.

[Sydney Grew]

. . . those composers whose later years were in different ways and for varying reasons blighted or undistinguished.

Weinberger after 1938.

And - well - Schönberg after 1908. (This will no doubt lead to cries of protest, but I really do think he went off the rails at a certain point and lost a certain melodic and harmonic genius.)

[Jimfin]

Well, it can b a bit subjective: Wagner's first wife disliked everything he wrote after 'Rienzi', and Stanford thought VW had gone too far with the Sea Symphony. If only he had lived to hear the 4th!

[Alan Howe]

There must surely be a difference between a composer losing his creative edge (or urge) and one who simply veers off in a direction we don't happen to like.

[Dundonnell]

I am delighted that my initial post starting this thread has led to some thoughtful and well-informed discussion I confess-as I said at the end of that post-that it was very much a late night 'stream of consciousness' posting and I lay in bed later thinking about whether I should have worded it better

It was intended, I suppose, to be somewhat provocative. I knew that others could and would pick holes in the examples I gave of composers like Elgar, Bax and Walton...even, perhaps, Harris.

There are, of course, countless cases of composers whose muse most certainly did not depart when they entered old age and who composed some of their greatest masterpieces at the very end of their lives. No one would doubt, for example, that Vaughan Williams 9th Symphony does not demonstrate a very old composer still at the height of his creative powers.

And, again naturally, there are composers whose physical or mental decline inhibited their capacity to go one composing rather than any more specific failure of continued inspiration. It is impossible to do other than consider each composer separately and often invidious and sometimes painful to highlight particular causes of apparent decline. There are very sad cases where alcohol abuse or distressing domestic circumstances, for example, certainly damaged the compositional careers of composers(both Malcolm Arnold and Malcolm Williamson have been well-documented) but I am not particularly keen to identify other such cases where they are not already widely known.

It is also perfectly true that a composer may change/develop his musical style in ways which are unexpected and, to the listener, perhaps surprisingly strange.
This may occasion a perception that the composer is "in decline" when in fact it is nothing of the sort.

No simple and staightforward answers

[JimL]

Well, it can b a bit subjective: Wagner's first wife disliked everything he wrote after 'Rienzi', and Stanford thought VW had gone too far with the Sea Symphony. If only he had lived to hear the 4th!

I'm not surprised poor Minna disliked everything after Rienzi!  He was already dissatisfied with her and probably eyeing Cosima von Bülow!

[eschiss1]

He left it to others to write Minnelieder?
And Glanville-Hicks did hear VW's 4th and was displeased for quite another reason not relevant to this thread :^)