Who invented the Scherzo?

[John H White]

I asked this question on this forum some years ago, but since then many new members have arrived on the scene.
On the face of it, the most obvious answer would be F J Haydn, but I have a sneaking feeling that some lesser known composer might have got there first. I'd also be interested to know if any unsung composer might have beaten Beethoven in the race to substitute a scherzo for a minuet in a symphony.

[eschiss1]

Well, if it counts, in 1759 Mozart (or Wagenseil) seems (I think- they seem similar?) to have arranged a minuet movement from the latter's keyboard sonata Op.1 as a "scherzo" by Wagenseil, entered into (Mozart's) sister's music notebook. Not quite the same thing, though... (Of course, pieces called scherzi, as noted before, date back at least as far as Monteverdi, but that's even something else entirely, yes.) As to symphonies- I tend to doubt it, as so many symphonies in  the late 1700s were just the 3-movement kind that was supposedly (if one believes some Wikipedia editors...) an exception when Mozart wrote his Prague symphony (... no, they were still the rule, actually...), and lacked minuets, leave alone scherzi- but that some composer somewhere might have been writing very daring symphonies (or concertos) and including scherzi - besides Beethoven - maybe. "No one" is increasingly less safe than "no one I know of" (well, was never a good statement to make, and one's always finding out why.)

[John H White]

Many thanks for that interesting bit of information Eschiss. I'm sure you're right about 3 movement symphonies being the norm in the last 2 decades of the 18th Century. What I would understand as a scherzo would be a sort of "jazzed up" version of the minuet as exemplified particularly in the so called minuets of Haydn's last two complete string quartets, Op77. These are surely more scherzo like than the "scherzi" from his earlier Op 33 set.

[chill319]

I haven't time to do any real research, but I will add a personal perspective, just in case it might stimulate someone else's thoughts on the matter.  (1) The aesthetic side: The scherzo is linked to the capriccio, insofar as both allow for abrupt excursions from an existing affect. (2) The formal side: the scherzo is a variation of the minuet.  (3) Who is famous for using the scherzo? Beethoven. Who was he influenced by in this regard? To name his four major influences: not Mozart, not Dussek, not Clementi. That leaves Haydn. So my question is: Who before Beethoven combined the aesthetic meaning of scherzo and the formal pattern of the minuet? I doubt it was someone outside of (unconnected with) Vienna.

[eschiss1]

One difference often noted between scherzo and minuet (will not claim for a moment that it's the only one, but it may be more important than first seems, at least in the dance's early development) is the time signature, typically some form of 2/4 as opposed to 3/4, I think.

[Josh]

The chronologically earliest scherzo involving orchestra that I have - and am aware of - is the last movement of a Harpsichord Concerto in G by Jiří Antonín Benda.  He wrote several harpsichord/keyboard concerti in this key (at least 3 that I've heard).  I believe it was written around 1780 or so.

[John H White]

That's really interesting Josh, but did it sound anything like the scherzos associated with Haydn's late quartets or Beethoven's early symphonies?

[JimL]

One difference often noted between scherzo and minuet (will not claim for a moment that it's the only one, but it may be more important than first seems, at least in the dance's early development) is the time signature, typically some form of 2/4 as opposed to 3/4, I think.

The earliest scherzos that I know of were in 3/4 time just like the minuet.  Beethoven actually started to get away from triple meter scherzos in his piano sonatas (c.f. 2nd movement of Op. 31 No. 3, which is also in sonata form!)  But Beethoven seems to have been the first to insert a scherzo in a symphony (although the minuetto movement from the 1st symphony is more like a scherzo and the scherzo from the 2nd symphony is more like a minuet!)

[John H White]

I'm sure you are right Jim about the so-called minuet in Beethoven's 1st symphony. Possibly Beethoven thought audiences would be put off by the designation "scherzo". However I'm still on the look out for any contemporaries of Beethoven who might have beaten him in the race to insert a scherzo into a symphony.

[Paul Barasi]

The question somehow reminds me of an old story of a Soviet schools inspector visiting a music lesson when a teacher became alarmed that one of the boys wasn't paying attention. "Who wrote that piece of music I just played?" asked the teacher, who was surprised by the reply: "It wasn't me". He became concerned when the boy didn't show up for the rest of the week but on making enquiries was told that he would be returning to school on Monday, now that he had admitted he did write that music.

[chill319]

I think Josh's ca. 1780 Benda example is significant. For one thing, the last movements of many works during the 1770s and a bit after were minuets, so putting a scherzo in that position is clearly related to what happened in the 1790s and after in Vienna.

[Delicious Manager]

I have always considered the 3rd movements of both Beethoven's First and Second Symphonies as scherzos in all but name. Those constant and dramatic changes of dynamic in that of the Second could never suggest a minuetto movement to me. I have always considered the scherzos on Beethoven's Op 1 piano trios of 1793 to be the first true movements in that form and wonder why he subsequently declined to use the term in the First and Second Symphonies.

[eschiss1]

... What do you mean declined to use?
Beethoven. 2nd symphony. "Scherzo: Allegro, 3/4"

Or is that just in modern editions and not in the 1st ed.?

[Delicious Manager]

... What do you mean declined to use?
Beethoven. 2nd symphony. "Scherzo: Allegro, 3/4"

Or is that just in modern editions and not in the 1st ed.?

My mistake! Score on the shelf to my right, not referred to (and memory failure). I was preoccupied with responding to a comment about it 'feeling' like a minuetto.

As you were 

[eschiss1]

I know the feeling well.