Conradin Kreutzer Piano Concerto in E flat Op65

[Martin Eastick]

I have just been advised by Mike Spring of Hyperion that the work uploaded as Kreutzer's 3rd Piano Concerto in E flat Op65 is certainly not the work published as such by Fr.Hofmeister. He has kindly given me a photocopy of the published Op65 and I can confirm this - all three movements being completely different! Obviously this leads us to the next question - can anyone identify the actual concerto we have in our downloads section? It is obviously contemporary with Kreutzer and is quite attractive - perhaps someone had uncovered a 4th Kreutzer concerto! Obviously we need to sort this matter out soon; certainly before any recording plans are put into place!

[thalbergmad]

Do we know for certain if it is not the 1st or 2nd??

If nobody has checked, I will tonight.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Sorry, I am an imbecile. I see that the download contains the 1st and 2nd concertos as well.

Thal

[Amphissa]

Well, it's no longer there. Which is okay for me, as I already have his concertos, but ....

[eschiss1]

... hrm.
(1) that's distressing.
(2) it's -not- distressing, to intuit that Mike Spring might be interested in recording these concertos, maybe, possibly. The first two, at least (well, and whatever no.3 is, but that's now irrelevant, unless... - erm, anyway) - anyway, I quite like the first two... a commercial recording, from Hyperion yet, would be very good, very happy news...

My usual go-tos with a problem like this are RISM-online's search-by-melody feature and things of that sort... might turn up something...

[thalbergmad]

Well, the 1st concerto is correct as I have checked that against the score.

For the 2nd, the score is in my loft but I will check it.

As for the 3rd, indeed the recording does not match the score so we have a little mystery on our hands.

Thal

[eschiss1]

if you have movement headings for the first two, at leisure (not yesterday or right this moment ) - much appreciated

[thalbergmad]

The 1st concerto is:

Allegro Brillante
Adagio
Finale

I will let you know the 2nd when I undertake the next expedition to my loft.

Thal

[eschiss1]

Thanks!

[Gareth Vaughan]

Well, it's no longer there. Which is okay for me, as I already have his concertos, but ....

Yes it is. I found the download without difficulty. I can't help with the identity of the so called "Kreutzer 3rd PC" however, so perhaps I'll just shutup.

[thalbergmad]

The 2nd concerto is definately the 2nd concerto which is a bit of a relief.

The movements are:

Allegro agitato con impeto
Andante
Allegro con anima

Thal

[Amphissa]

Thal, thanks for the movement info.

Could anyone tell me the opus number of his 2nd piano concerto?

[JimL]

What is the tempo of the Finale of the 1st concerto?

[eschiss1]

assuming there is one; sometimes (sometimes anyway)- to refer back to a long-continuing discussion- published scores and even autograph manuscripts- had (not nearly so much with much more recent composers unless it's deliberately- but - that's the point..) just Minuet or Finale without a clarifying tempo, much less a Maelzel (metronome) marking. (Especially for solo works, where no coordination was needed between performers, but yes, for larger-ensemble ones too. One finds some interesting and thought-provoking things looking through some of those publications and manuscripts, I think. Anyhow. Sorry.
Actually, while I expect the answer is "partially in e.g. Munich and Berlin", I wonder where many of Kreutzer's surviving manuscripts (early, maybe early copies, not necessarily autograph/holograph) -are-?

[eschiss1]

Also, piano concerto no.2 is Op.50 (his 3 concertos are Op.42, 50 and 65 . The material for the first two can be found at:--
Op.42 --  Staatsbibliothek Hanover (parts, published by Peters, Plate 1471, ca.1825 judging from the plate (not 1818 as the library estimates it, but not, I think, a first edition)); concerto no.2 Op.50, N. Simrock (Harvard and Tisch University (Massachusetts) have the parts- plate 1611?- sometime around the early 1820s, I think. Tisch has the piano part only.)