Raff/Järvi Chandos vol. 2 - Symphony 5 etc.

[Alan Howe]

Mackerras adopted a modified form of HIP in his later years, rather as Abbado did. But neither did anything as remotely silly in mid-to-late romantic music as Norrington has. Mackerras would have made a fine Raff conductor.

[john_christopher]

It may be that Jarvi has it right.  Here is a comparison between Raff's metronome markings and the initial tempos adopted by three different conductors:

          Raff     Herrmann     Schneider     Stadlmair

I.        168          128              140              152

II.         86            64               72                72

III.      160          120              124              124

IV.       162          124              136              152


Jarvi remains to be seen, but he probably has adopted the written tempos, which on the face of it seem ridiculously fast.  But look how well the Second Symphony worked!  I am reminded of being in New York to hear John Eliot Gardner conduct Beethoven's Ninth (well, I really was there to hear Christiane Oelze sing the soprano part -- that was before she cut her hair) and being amazed by the revelatory experience of hearing the Ninth in 59 minutes.  Suddenly the routine of hearing the Ninth as a kind of proto-Bruckner or paleo-Mahler was gone, replaced by a work that had its roots firmly in the early 19th century.  It was a best-of-both worlds solution: original tempos with modern instruments...and vibrato!

Speaking of which, there are several passages in Lenore where the strings are directed to play vibrato.  Not more vibrato, just vibrato.  If Raff asked that these passage be played vibrato, what was his expectation for the rest?

So much for theory.  How will it sound?

[Mark Thomas]

I'm a little bit behind the curve on this, but have now managed to download the mp3s of Järvi's Lenore. The overtures will have to wait until I get home.

Before turning to Järvi's performance, maybe it would be best to remind ourselves that this is one of Raff's two genuine programatic symphonies in the tradition of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, as distinct from the seven which would better be described as "illustrative", after the fashion of Beethoven's Pastoral. The programme is based on a true gothic horror classic, a spine-chilling, blasphemous nightmare. Listening to Järvi's interpretation, it seems to me that for the first time we are hearing the whole of Raff's Lenore as a true reflection of Bürger's original ballad: not just the finale (with its bar-by-bar retelling of the poem's own climax), but the whole work is suffused with the nightmare tale.

I'm away from home at present, so I can't check whether Järvi's tempi match Raff's metronome markings, but I don't think they'll be far out and so I guess that what we are hearing is nearer Raff's intention than anything else we've heard before. I was certainly taken aback initially by the pace at the very start of the work, and I do think that it would benefit from a broader approach in the first few bars, but the Allegro first movement as a whole, although much faster than we are used to, doesn't seem too fast at all if one bears in mind the nightmare nature of the whole piece. This isn't love's young dream, it's a tale of horror. Järvi offers plenty of tempi variation and dynamic variety within the overall quick pace and those sudden frenzied leaps and bounds all add to the fevered atmosphere.

As the Second Symphony's slow movement did, the lovely Andante really benefits from Järvi having the guts to conduct as Raff wrote it. The absence of wallowing allows the movement to act as calm before the storm resumes, but without slowing down the pace of the drama. The speed at which the Marsch is taken returns us to the poem's manic atmosphere, and blurs the edges of its four-square themes, so that it almost resembles a scherzo more typical of Raff. At first hearing, I was disappointed that the trio wasn't more contrasted with the surrounding march, because I think that Järvi misses the pathos which other interpreters have found there, but overall his approach to this movement, which makes its palindromic scheme seem much less contrived, is a revelation.

Unlike most of Raff's other symphonies, the finale of the Fifth is the climax of the work, and it's also arguably the most successful movement in most of the recordings. Here I think there is less to separate Järvi from his competitors but, because of what has gone before, the tension is screwed a notch higher in his interpretation, the action just that bit more frenzied, the denouement a shade more dramatic. It's all hugely exciting. My only quibble (but a major one) is that the closing chorale, in which Raff hints at Lenore's salvation, is distressingly perfunctory.

Although the OSR rise to the occasion heroically it's still definitely a white knuckle ride, but a tremendously rewarding one, despite the odd misgiving which I've mentioned. I'm convinced that this new recording brings us much nearer to Raff's intention than we have been before.

As an aside, I should mention that I was listening to Stadlmair's recording of the Sixth yesterday. Now, that work's a lot better than its contemporary reputation would have one believe, but listening to Järvi's Fifth today brought home to me why audiences and critics were so disappointed when the Sixth appeared.

[TerraEpon]

Jarvi remains to be seen, but he probably has adopted the written tempos, which on the face of it seem ridiculously fast.  But look how well the Second Symphony worked!  I am reminded of being in New York to hear John Eliot Gardner conduct Beethoven's Ninth (well, I really was there to hear Christiane Oelze sing the soprano part -- that was before she cut her hair) and being amazed by the revelatory experience of hearing the Ninth in 59 minutes.  Suddenly the routine of hearing the Ninth as a kind of proto-Bruckner or paleo-Mahler was gone, replaced by a work that had its roots firmly in the early 19th century.  It was a best-of-both worlds solution: original tempos with modern instruments...and vibrato!

I'm reminded of a lecture from The Teaching Company where there was an aural comparison of two unnamed conductors' (pretty sure it was Karajan and Gardiner, but that's just a guess) recordings of the beginning of Beethoven's 3rd. Of course the point was the same, that mid 20th century tempos were ridiculously slow and it wasn't until the whole HIP movement that brought things back into perspective on how they really should be.

[Alan Howe]

...and Karajan's Beethoven 3 is actually pretty swift.
As I said before, the HIP movement has done a great job in re-focusing attention on marked tempi, etc.; however, we shouldn't run away with the idea that everything pre-HIP was anachronistically slow. As I said before, the influence of a certain group of conductors whose old age coincided with the advent of more advanced recording technology (stereo, then digital) has much to do with the skewing of the overall picture. Now, of course, most of these 'greats' are dead, and so the field is open to others...

[Alan Howe]

Here's the front cover:

[sdtom]

Another one to look forward to.
Tom

[TerraEpon]

Well listening to the samples....huh that third movement just sounds wierd going so fast. Does it really follow the tempo marking? Otherwise, it sounds very top notch as a whole.

[Alan Howe]

The performance has to be heard as a whole, without preconceptions. Then it makes perfect sense. I'm 100% convinced.

[raffite33]

Shedding those aural preconceptions can be fairly difficult, especially with lesser known composers.  When someone says they cut their teeth on a particular Gunter Wand recording of a Beethoven symphony, it is hard to imagine they weren't exposed to other recordings via radio, TV, etc.  When I walked into a CD Superstore in 1989 and saw the Bamert "Lenore" on Koch, I'd never heard of Raff, much less heard his music.  Lucky I was eager to try something new that day and liked the painting detail on the front!  For a couple of years, that CD had the Raff section in my rack to itself.  As I eventually collected Schneider, Hermann, Butt, Carthy & Stadlmair, I could discern pros & cons of all 6 recordings as far as sound, playing & recording were concerned.  My gut and my ear, however, always convinced me that the tempi & phrasing on the Bamert were correct.  Now, thanks to reading up on the matter (God bless you Raff Society website!), I am, intellectually, at least, prepared to admit that any recording that can play to Raff's metronome marks with the required skill & precision might just be what I want.  The 6 CD recordings we have, to my mind, at least, are all wanting in one aspect or another.  If this is to be the 5 star recording I've hoped for for years, I think I'd just as soon it was played the way it was written.  Now, if my mind can only convince my gut & ear of that!

By the way, does anyone know the painter or title of the painting on the cover of the Bamert CD?  I've been hoping to see the whole thing for for years, too?

[mjkFendrich]

By the way, does anyone know the painter or title of the painting on the cover of the Bamert CD?  I've been hoping to see the whole thing for for years, too?

The painting is Caspar David Friedrich's "Abtei im Eichwald" (1809/10).

[Alan Howe]

My copy of the Bamert has a painting of a young woman...



...whereas this is the Fredrich painting:

[Alan Howe]

Mention of the Bamert recording caused me to go back and listen to the first movement in that recording. I came to the conclusion that it isn't just about tempi, because Bamert isn't just slow, he's soggy too, i.e. there is little sense of Raffian dynamism and rhythmic profile. From being initially extremely apprehensive about whether I could live with Järvi's approach, I now feel that his performance best captures the work's nervous intensity throughout. And, rather than the piece being some 50 mins plus monster, it actually falls much more closely into line with the other great symphonies that preceded it, i.e. nos 2, 3 and 4.

I just hope that Järvi will give us 3 and 4. Let's hope he lives long enough...

[Mark Thomas]

I imagine that maestro Järvi would agree with you, Alan!

[raffite33]

The Bamert recording would probably come off a lot better if it weren't for the muffled, echoey sound.  Anyway, it was, indeed, issued twice, with different covers.

What I find to be a shame is that this will be the 7th CD, and nobody has thought to use one of the paintings that actually depict Burger's poem.  You can see "The Ballad of Lenore, or 'The Dead go Fast'" by Horace Vernet on the cover of an Alkan CD (Hyperion CDA67218) or another, inferior, painting also depicting Lenore's ride on a Sterling CD of Klughardt's symphonic poem, "Lenore."  I imagine there are similar paintings I'm unaware of.

If Neeme Jarvi doesn't make it through 3 & 4 (8-11 would be nice , too!), maybe Chandos will get Bamert or Andrew Davis to take up the project, assuming sales are good enough to warrant it.