Who would you consider a Brucknerian composer?

[eschiss1]

or that we need to define the question better? also, pace hadrianus, the claim of Brucknerian character is no less nor more an insult in and of itself than the claim of originality, especially on this forum of recent years.

[jimsemadeni]

Maybe Johanna Senfter? Have only ever heard her 4th symphony, would very much like to hear more (anybody know of other pieces available?). Agree with Adriano that it seems unnecessary to listen to music only to find "influences". Of course, listeners with trained ears will hear echoes but then also that training just probably helps them put it all into perspective, hopefully to find something to appreciate about the "influenced" composer's highly subjective sound expressions. I said in some forum once, maybe this one, that all music must have descended from birdsong, so rather than decry a musical passage that is 'derivative' of the warble of a two-toed yellow faced whickerpoof, just listen to it or don't!

[eschiss1]

Senfter- I've heard a few other works of hers (some piano works) and would add her teacher Reger as an influence, and also look forward to hearing more.

(Some Wellesz sounds especially Brucknerian - the opening of his 2nd symphony somewhat paraphrases-sort-of the (opening of the) finale of Bruckner's 4th symphony, for example; similar ostinati for similar purposes, same E-flat minor key...)

[adriano]

You are right, eschiss 1 (in both your last postings) :-)

[Alan Howe]

Senfter's 4th sounds rather like a continuation of Bruckner's stylistic trajectory.

Edit 10th March 2024: In light of the broadcast of Senfter' s 4th Symphony I would no longer connect her with Bruckner; rather, the influence of her teacher Reger's constantly evolving chromaticism seems to me all-pervasive.

[JimL]

Johanna Senfter. Listen to her 4th Symphony.

[eschiss1]

Cuclin in some of his symphonies?... or maybe not. Hrm. Will have to think on that one. Mr. Schmidt-Kowalski?

(The usual difference between "Brucknerian" and "Mahlerian" -- _a_ usual difference - has to do with the sorts of things that are said to have influenced Shostakovich & cie - Mahlerian irony/disjunctness/etc. Whose presence even in Mahler, and absence from Bruckner, are to be proven and not merely asserted, of course; seems clearest to me in GM's 7th...)

[Pyramus]

A few years ago I was in an orchestra which put on the Symphony by Paul Dukas. Written in 1896, part of the slow movement reminded me of Bruckner. I don't know how much of Bruckner's music would have been known in France at that time.

[eschiss1]

Well, Dubois, one of his teachers, was very much no fan of Wagner and probably might not have been of Bruckner. (OTOH Debussy, who Dukas was friends with, was influenced early on by Franck, who heard, not Bruckner's symphonies, but his organ improvisations, in person.)

[Alan Howe]

Some apparently discernible similarities may well be attributable to, for example, Wagner and turn out to be parallel developments across different countries and traditions. True 'Brucknerians' surely came after him, e.g. Wetz or Scherber. I don't think are very many - unlike, say, the imitators of Brahms.

[Petteri Nieminen]

Maybe Johanna Senfter? Have only ever heard her 4th symphony, would very much like to hear more (anybody know of other pieces available?). Agree with Adriano that it seems unnecessary to listen to music only to find "influences". Of course, listeners with trained ears will hear echoes but then also that training just probably helps them put it all into perspective, hopefully to find something to appreciate about the "influenced" composer's highly subjective sound expressions. I said in some forum once, maybe this one, that all music must have descended from birdsong, so rather than decry a musical passage that is 'derivative' of the warble of a two-toed yellow faced whickerpoof, just listen to it or don't!

Working on her symphonies now and they will eventually be available (a 3-year project). Bruckner is often evoked because of her 4th but that does her disservice. Generally, she is very careful to observe the sonata form, less melodic, more abstract and less emotional. Funnily enough, the review of her first symphony (titled "1914") performed in 1918 mentioned that "the woman is just like Brahms, enough said". Also agree that we can always find influences but it may well be that is more a question of the style of the era. For instance, I conducted Amanda Maier-Röntgen's violin concerto a few years ago and the musicians talked among themselves how "it clearly had influences of Sibelius with also they key the same in D minor" until our flute player mentioned that it had been composed 30 years before Sibelius... Back to Senfter. I am prophesying that her symphonies will become the new "cycle of 9" within a decade.

[Alan Howe]

An interesting prospect. I've started a new thread on Senfter's symphonies: perhaps more details could be posted there?

[Maury]

Thanks very much for this thread. I have been listening to Bruckner for many years and I enjoy his music now better than ever so I guess I'm a lifer. Bruckner has taught me patience. Yes I looked for similar composers rather fitfully but never found any. However I have listened to the suggestions in this thread and do agree with those who said Richard Wetz and Martin Scherber. With Wetz there is an actual kinship I think. With Scherber it is more a modernistic take on Bruckner; harder and sterner than anything in actual Bruckner. None of the others seem Brucknerian, merely German and Romantic. So thank you for introducing me to both.

One issue is that Bruckner's orchestration I think is derived from his extensive experience as an organist. So you have these sudden starts and stops which are easy enough on the organ because they are under the control of two hands and feet. In US orchestras which are not that familiar with Bruckner, I have seen musicians reduced to jelly trying to manage these.

As for the Symphony 9 there were some interesting comments on its unintended 3 movement structure . I think the problem Bruckner had in completing it was due to it being a tragic symphony in form. I guess he didn't realize that until he came to the Finale, but there is no way to follow the third movement directly with a positive Finale IMO. The dissonant chord close to the end of the slow movement is so forceful and harsh that it either mandates a tragic Finale or at least adding an intervening fifth movement to recover from it and then move to a more positive Finale.

[Alan Howe]

Agreed. I think we are only really left with Wetz and Scherber.

[eschiss1]

That unintended 3 movement form - Moderate Scherzo Slow- led to successors itself (think Egon Wellesz' first and 6th-9th.)