Without A. Rubinstein's seminal Piano Concerto No.4...

[Alan Howe]

...it is impossible to conceive of concertos such as Rachmaninov's. Discuss!

[adriano]

Yes, Alan, but only as far as the second movement is concerned. The other two have a lot of material for Tchaikovsky, whose Concertos Nr. 1 (1874) and 2 (1879-80) came after Rubinstein's 4th (1864/72).
In the second movement I hear Rubintein tributing Beethoven in some isolated passages...
Rubinstein's 4th Concerto is a marvellous work; Busoni liked it very much.
(Fritz Brun conducted this work in Berne in 1915, with soloist Max van den Sandt - who had been his piano teacher at the Cologne Conservatory in 1897-1901 - I was a success.
A pity Michael Ponti recorded only a cut version (if I am wrong, please correct me).
And those 4 Marco Polo CDs with Rubinstein's concertante works (published 1989-1993), played by Joseph Banowetz, are very good. I consider them a highlight of this label's earlier catalogue. This is, unfortunately, not so much the case of all Rubinstein Symphonies, published by them in 1986-1993.

[Alan Howe]

Thanks for that. It was, of course, a deliberately provocative question. And yes: AR's PC4 is a wonderful work. 

[Hector]

I think the influence of Rubinstein on Brahms may be overlooked by musicologists, that 'leonine' style in Rubinstein that contemporary commentators mention seems to me to find development in Brahms earlier piano works. But I'm not that keen on valuing composers for their subsequent influence on the history of music, much beautiful and profound music has been written in obscurity or in styles already old fashioned at the time of writing.

Ps I prefer Paley on Delos to Banowetz on Marco Polo for the 4th.

[Alan Howe]

I'm thinking in particular of the development of the PC in Russia...

[FBerwald]

I believe Tchaikovsky's PC 1 echoes Rubinstein's PC 5 more than anything with it's fierce waves of passionate passages alongside pondering slow and near-silent bits.

The Banowetz readings on Marco Polo are stunning - Pity about the quality of piano used for the recording.

[Alan Howe]

Here's an interesting study of the PC in 19th century Russia:
http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/1786/1/DX183136.pdf

[JimL]

If the Paley is a rerelease of the Russian Disc release of the 4th (which was coupled with the 2nd), then that was waaaaaaaay too slow and draggy for me. The 2nd, on the other hand, trumped the Banowecz, which had the same problem vis-a-vis the Paley. Funny how the same problem would inversely affect the different interpretations of both works. In any event, the Ponti was not cut, but the orchestral contribution was way undermiked.

[Alan Howe]

Could we keep to the topic here, please?

[Hector]

On the influence of Rubinstein's piano music on later composers...

From Lesley Howard's notes to his recording of Rubinstein's Piano Sonatas -

"...he ( Rubinstein) loathed Brahms's music, partly because Brahms had borrowed a great many ideas from him without acknowledgement, and had then written a great many unkind things about the very pieces by which he had been influenced."

(Not disputing the influence on subsequent Russian piano music just saying Brahms too!)

[Alan Howe]

Interesting, though, I agree.

I just didn't want this thread to descend into a discussion about different recordings.