Brahms/Holloway Symphony in F minor Op.34b

[Alan Howe]

Details here:
https://daniels-orchestral.com/johannes-brahms/symphony-f-minor-orchd-holloway/

To be broadcast on BBC Radio 3 on Wednesday 29th March during the Afternoon Concert which starts at 2pm:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001k8hf
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Paul Mann (conductor)

[Mark Thomas]

I'm a sucker for this sort of thing and will try to record it.

[Justin]

This is a 2008 orchestration of Brahms' Piano Quintet in F minor, composed during Brahms' period of working on Symphony No. 1.

[John Boyer]

I'm a sucker for this sort of thing and will try to record it.

The performance is scheduled to be released by Toccata in May: "Brahms by Arrangement, Vol. 2", along with an orchestration of the Variations on a Theme by Schumann, Op. 23. 

[Alan Howe]

Johannes BRAHMS: Brahms by Arrangement, Volume Two: Orchestrations by Robin Holloway:
Variations on a Theme of Schumann, Op.23
Symphony in F minor, Op.34
Schumann Six Canonic Studies, Op.56
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Paul Mann, conductor

First recordings
TOCC0450
https://toccataclassics.com/pipeline/

Thanks, John, for the info. I should have guessed - Paul Mann's a Toccata Classics stalwart.

[Mark Thomas]

Yes, many thanks John. I see that it has been orchestrated at least once before, by Henk de Vlieger, and there's a recording of that version by the Orchestre de Picardie under Arie van Beek - details and excerpts at Presto here.

[John Boyer]

Although it's slightly off-topic, Peter Klatzow did a marvelous orchestration of the first three movements of the Brahms Quintet in G, which had started life as sketches for a fifth symphony.  The result is utterly convincing and natural sounding, as if it had always been meant to sound that way.  Here is a performance of the first movement by the Cape Town Symphony:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQZpJuLBsN8

[Mark Thomas]

I've known Klatzow's orchestration for a few years and completely agree with what you write about its quality. The second and third movements are also, or once were, available on YouTube somewhere. Unfortunately Klatzow never orchestrated the finale, and I read somewhere that this was because he felt that Brahms had lost interest in the work as a potential symphony by the time he came to the finale and that it therefore wasn't in keeping with the rest of the work. A pity.

[John Boyer]

The second and third movements are also, or once were, available on YouTube somewhere.

2nd movement

3rd movement

[jasthill]

Speaking as the devils advocate I would have to imagine that Brahms would be righteously pissed at the various orchestrations of his chamber compositions. They are not badly done they are just pseudo Brahms.  Brahms did only one orchestration - that of the Haydn variations, and there is more Brahms in it than Haydn.  Admittedly, maybe Schoenberg got away with it with his orchestration of the Piano Quartet, Op. 25, but I will give Schoenberg the benefit of a doubt being that he was closer to the Brahms style and era than any of our contemporary composers. Likewise, it would have been wonderful if Brahms could have composed 5 symphonies like Mendelssohn, or maybe 7 like his contemporary Tchaikovsky, or God help us maybe 11 like Raff and Bruckner.  Many people hunger for more of what Brahms might have orchestrally composed and I too am a sucker for these latest conjures.  I suggest if you want an example of the Brahms skill in orchestration listen to the recent Naxos recording Johannes Brahms: Hungarian Dances and the Hungarian Tradition (Naxos 8574424-25) and enjoy his orchestral transformations that came from those sources.

[John Boyer]

Speaking as the devils advocate I would have to imagine that Brahms would be righteously pissed at the various orchestrations of his chamber compositions. [...]  Admittedly, maybe Schoenberg got away with it with his orchestration of the Piano Quartet, Op. 25, but I will give Schoenberg the benefit of a doubt being that he was closer to the Brahms style and era than any of our contemporary composers. [...] I suggest if you want an example of the Brahms skill in orchestration listen to the recent Naxos recording Johannes Brahms: Hungarian Dances and the Hungarian Tradition (Naxos 8574424-25) and enjoy his orchestral transformations that came from those sources.

I'm sure he would have hated them, but that's on him.  He hated a lot of things that I like.  And I've never liked the Schoenberg orchestration of the 1st Piano Quartet precisely because it is stylistically so un-Brahmsian.  Finally, Brahms orchestrated only three of the Hungarian Dances (1, 3, and 10).  The rest are by other composers/arrangers. 

[Alan Howe]

but I will give Schoenberg the benefit of a doubt being that he was closer to the Brahms style and era than any of our contemporary composers.

Respectfully, I disagree. It's wonderful in its own way, but it sure ain't like Brahms.

[terry martyn]

Maybe that's why I like it so much!

[Alan Howe]

Quite possibly!

[Ilja]

but I will give Schoenberg the benefit of a doubt being that he was closer to the Brahms style and era than any of our contemporary composers.

Respectfully, I disagree. It's wonderful in its own way, but it sure ain't like Brahms.

You can say the same about the De Vlieger orchestrations; they're quite nimble, but also, if you don't mind, expressively a bit "flat" and, to be honest, boring. 

From what I gather, there are quite a few "symphonizations" of pieces by Brahms, most of which use early chamber works to possibly re-create a symphony (I guess?) to precede Brahms' First:

• Piano Sonata in C major, Op. 1 (De Vlieger)
• Piano Trio in B, Op. 8 (Swensen)
• Piano Quartet in G major, Op. 25 (Schoenberg)
• Piano Quartet in A major, Op. 26 (Woods)
• Piano Quintet in F minor, Op. 34 (De Vlieger, Holloway)
• String Sextet in G major, Op. 36 (Atterberg, for string orchestra with organ)
• String Quintet in G major, Op. 111 (Klatzow)

Klatzow is the exception of course, and I agree with John that his attempt feels very natural. The same goes for Swensen's attempt. My favorite, however, must be Atterberg's arrangement (not really an orchestration) of the String Sextet. He creates something quite different from the original, but I think it works rather better than Schoenberg's attempt.