Ferdinand Hiller: Symphonies (vol.2)

[Ilja]

Ilja, are you perhaps referring to the 1833 Symphony in F minor, which has actually been recorded earlier in this series by Griffiths?

https://app.idagio.com/albums/ferdinand-hiller-symphony-op-67-and-symphony-in-f-minor

Hi, I was referring to this work, which I don't remember seeing in a performance yet. But considering the potential for further confusion, I might be wrong entirely.

[Gareth Vaughan]

That is the E minor (not F minor) symphony recorded in the disk that has just been released. CPO have used the numbers from Gehlmann's Hiller Worklist. the University of Frankfurt Library catalogues their autograph copy as Hs. 87 and Gehlmann makes this clear in his entry:

Symphonie a grand orchestre, e-Moll. HW 2.4.3
Allegro molto vivace; Andante scherzando; Alla Marcia. Allegro non troppo; Chant des Pirates. Allegro
con fuoco. ♦ Quellen: Revue musicale, 1831, S. 348a; ,,Symphonie ä grand orchestre"; Konzert
am 4. Dez. 1831 in Paris, ,,grande salle du Conservatoire"; vgl. F.-J. Fetis: Revue musicale, 1831,
S. 353b. Ihl, Bd. 1, S. 408f. ♦ Komp.: Pa[ss]y, Septembre 31, Chant des Pirates: 5. Fevrier 1831 (Autograph
datiert). ♦ Autogr.: Univ. Frankf. a. M.s Sign.: Mus Hs 87. ♦ Anm.: Kompositionstagebuch,
Dez. 1830; Hinweis darauf, dass Hiller den Chant des Pirates umgeschrieben habe. Kompositionstagebuch,
Sept. 1831: ,,Allegro dazu umgearbeitet, Andante umgeschrieben."

[Ilja]

Ehm yes, I was talking about the E minor because that was the one that was listed on the CD cover... 

[Justin]

[Ilja]

This recording has now been released. I just downloaded it from Presto, but those not immediately willing to commit can sample the whole thing on YouTube.

The excellent booklet text by Bert Hagels attempts to disentangle the chaos of Hiller's symphonies, coming up with this list:

• Symphony in E minor HW 2.4.3 1829, revised 1830/31, 1st version lost
• [Simphonie de Victoire in E flat major HW 2.4.2, 1830, lost]
• Symphony in F minor HW 2.4.4 1832, Finale revised 1833
• Symphony in E minor, "Es muss doch Frühling werden" HW 1.67 1848, revised 1854/55, printed 1865
• [Symphony in G major, "Im Freien" HW 2.4.11 1851/52, lost]
• Symphony in C major HW 2.4.6, 1876/77

That would mean that we now have modern recordings of Hiller's entire extant set of symphonies - although obviously not yet his "pseudo-symphonies", such as the G minor Symphonic Fantasy of 1868 and the C major Idyll of 1880. As Hagels explains, the alleged two E minor symphonies of 1829-1831 are various iterations of the same work, with the first version, which contained an entirely different third and fourth movement, having been lost. The third movement was newly composed for the version we hear on this recording, and the finale replaced with a probably already existing orchestral piece, Chant des Pirates.

[Mark Thomas]

The E minor Symphony in this release (can we now call it "No.1"?) is a terrific example of early romanticism, written in the wake of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, it is a highly original, uninhibited and inventive piece which receives a blazing performance here, and I enjoyed it very much. The Symphony in C major (No.6?) we know from Tuomas' excellent digital realisation. It's an effective work which deserves an occasional hearing but, despite an equally committed performance, to my ears it somehow lacks the originality and bite of the F minor of 46 years earlier, and perhaps showed that Hiller, for all his evident skill, hadn't moved with times. The booklet is indeed a model of its kind, by the way.

[Ilja]

I don't disagree entirely with this verdict; the "6th" sounds a tad pedestrian compared to some other late Hiller as well, such as the quirky Idyll in C major.

By the way, although I think we can call the E minor symphony No. 1, of course Hiller didn't make it easy for us by writing the Simphonie de Victoire inbetween both versions of the E minor - which therefore could become both No. 1 and No. 3, I guess.

[tpaloj]

I was finally able to catch up a little on my backlog of recordings, and listen to both of the symphonies. I agree with Mark that between the two works, the performance of the E minor Symphony is somewhat sharper, more expressive and better measured on the whole. I was surprised myself how much life the orchestra was able to create even in the final movement, which at least on paper seemed monothematic and banal to me. On the contrary! Great work.

The C major Symphony is such a familiar work to me – and it's a more difficult task for the performers – that I would have been thoroughly surprised if they managed to pull it off in a satisfying fashion. The performance is somehow less sharp and insightful than I feel it could be: it's a valiant try, but not enough for me. The contrasts, accents and colors that I'm expecting to find just aren't all there on this recording.

The booklet does a commendable job of making some sense into the chronology of Hiller's symphonies. I do wish, as Ilja proposes, that the conductor and orchestra might continue this series by delving into Hiller's other orchestral works: the overtures, Symphonic & Dramatic Fantasies, Idyll, Aubade...

[terry martyn]

A batch has arrived and I am playing them in the order in which I expect to be the most disappointed to a probable winner - Hiller volume 2,the early Moszkowski symphony, Reichel, Reicha vol 1,and Potter vol 4.

Two (attempted) listens to the Hiller, so far.  He is not a great composer of symphonic music and manifestly not a good orchestrator

The first of the two symphonies on this disc - the one completely revised from a (lost) first version - has its moments, but the monothemism alluded to in another post borders on monotony. The composition doesn't hang together - heaven knows what the first version must have sounded like!  And the  use of the timpani in the first movement leaves a lot to be desired - I wrote down "obtrusive to the point of being obstreperous"

As to the 1870's symphony, well,I have twice made the mistake of attempting to play the whole CD through in one sitting. Both times ,I fell asleep during this work.  Tonight, I shall play it first ,and hope to avoid snoring.

[eschiss1]

I've been putting off giving the F minor symphony a listen but I absolutely mean to do so, not least because at one point - not recently - I meant to create typeset parts from the score, or something like that, and was making a little progress with the first movement which impressed me reasonably as I went through it...

[terry martyn]

Back in the 50s , long before I ever  heard the Dvorak New World, there was an advertising jingle - "Fry's Turkish Delight".  It has spoiled my enjoyment of that symphony's finale.

I was reminded of that when I (partially) stayed awake for Hiller's 1870's symphony. Back in kindergarten, we used to be made to sing "All Things Bright and Beautiful". The opening theme of the first movement of the Hiller is sufficiently like that ditty to be a real downer.

Sometime before the end of the fourth movement, I was asleep again.  That makes three out of three. Returning to my 50s musings, I vote  this symphony a "miss".

[Mark Thomas]

So, you're not a Hiller fan then, Terry?

[Ilja]

Hm yes, as much as I value the subjective experience, I feel we should be careful with using sleep induction and trauma caused by childhood ditties as a yardstick for assessing musical compositions. And perhaps, be honest enough to acknowledge that just because we don't like something it doesn't mean it's bad. For example, I can't get excited about Cipriani Potter's symphonies, but I don't think that means his music is somehow inferior – it simply means it doesn't provoke a strong enough emotional reaction in me to truly enjoy it.

As will be clear, I couldn't disagree more with Terry's dismissal of Hiller as a composer. Admittedly, I have long had a soft spot for his music since it projects such an attractive joie de vivre. But I also think it does so effectively, with generally interesting thematic material and effective orchestration. Now that we can listen to most of the symphonies, it's also easier to see the highlights and dead spots, and the former far outnumber the latter, in my view. Of course, it's not all perfect; Berlioz accused Hiller of over-noodling the development of the theme in the Finale of the 3rd F minor symphony of 1833 (although I am biased enough to rather enjoy that movement), but on the other other hand the endorsement of people such as Schumann, Mendelssohn and Chopin (and patronizing dismissal by Wagner) must count for something.

[John Boyer]

So, you're not a Hiller fan then, Terry?

I'm beginning to get that feeling.  I don't want to jump to conclusions, but certain indicators cannot be ignored.

[John Boyer]

Hm yes, as much as I value the subjective experience, I feel we should be careful with using sleep induction and trauma caused by childhood ditties as a yardstick for assessing musical compositions.

This statement is to musical analysis what "watery tarts handing out swords to passing knights is no basis for a system of sound government" was to political science. 

We, who are about to laugh, salute you.