Brahms "Nullte" Symphony

[Alan Howe]

Thanks, Mark. I've replied to his response - we'll see what happens...

[John Boyer]

[...] the presentation - both the lack of provenance and the purple prose in the description - is rather off-putting.

I'm in wholehearted agreement.  It's all in such poor taste.  Those of us of a certain age will be reminded of Geraldo Rivera and "The Secrets of Al Capone's Vaults".  This is tabloid musicology.
--
Addendum: One of the things that struck me about the YT post was how AI-generated it felt.  It had that weird quality of empty verbosity that so characterizes so much of AI slop.  I've seen many people decrying how the internet is rapidly being overwhelmed by meaningless (and inaccurate) AI-generated content; well, I just encountered the following while searching for any other corroborating information about the alleged discovery of this alleged Brahms fragment:

https://news.pianoencyclopedia.com/article/the-hidden-beauty-7-unfinished-brahms-compositions-that-will-stir-your-soul

My question is: why?  Why generate meaningless, inaccurate content like this?

[Alan Howe]

,,a Cup that Brahms himself..." that phrase is really a hoax.

This is the latest official response to my 'prodding'. The admission of a hoax...?

[Mark Thomas]

What pointless silliness. Herr Zielke is doing a good job of trashing his own brand.

[Gareth Vaughan]

well, I just encountered the following while searching for any other corroborating information about the alleged discovery of this alleged Brahms fragment:

https://news.pianoencyclopedia.com/article/the-hidden-beauty-7-unfinished-brahms-compositions-that-will-stir-your-soul

Thank goodness I had a paper bag handy, John. How disgustingly emetic! There is so much AI generated junk on the internet now... And 99% of it is garbage.

[Ilja]

... and garbage recycling itself, hence the dead internet theory.

My best guess is that this is Zielke's way of drawing attention to what might become a problem in the near future and while I could support that sentiment, let's say that the way he goes about it is perhaps not ideal.

By the way, if AI could lower the threshold for musical expression through the elimination of technical obstructions I'm all in favour of it. But I'm afraid that in reality the consequences may be more ... repetitive than creative.

[Hamburger]

Dear Friends of romantic music!
Sorry for this YouTube fake. But the cup of coffee should have immediately made anyone suspicious!
Okay, an irritation of a ,,special kind". But please guess who else wrote this Zeroth Symphony. (The composer was 23 years old, when he wrote it!)

No Brahms (Although Brahms was one of this composer's role models, he was in correspondence with him), no AI, no Zielke, no Thieriot. Listen to his 2nd Mvt.of 5

https://app.box.com/s/qie4jooma8pk2947yk547e2rlo5kitmx

This symphony is based on the "ideé fixe", as already used by Berlioz in his Symphonie Fantastique. The multiple division of the strings (tenfold divisi in the second movement) is also borrowed from Berlioz. The work was performed several times with great success by the composer himself. Note: The composer learned to conduct from none other than Hans von Bülow. The composer did not get it published due to his young age and withdrew it completely in 1900.

You'll find out for sure!

[tpaloj]

The video appears to be made private now, perhaps pending a new approach to the PR....

[Jonathan]

AI is a complete menace and is strangling creativity.  There are a number of writers groups on FaceBook that seem to be populated with people who advocate using it to write their novels, something that I wholeheartedly disagree with (especially as I wrote 2 books without it and am writing a third!)

The other field that it's impacting on is identification of shells (molluscs - I'm a conchologist) and people are relying on it to identify things and in almost all cases, it's completely useless!

Sorry, rant over. 

It will be interesting to see if this Brahms early symphony comes to anything - there is no mention of it in Jan Swafford's biography or any of my other sources.   

[eschiss1]

Or in MacDonald's (rather better!) Brahms biography, either, iirc.

[John Boyer]

...or Avins's edition of his letters, or Musgrave's book on his music.  Sigh...

[Alan Howe]

But please guess who else wrote this Zeroth Symphony. (The composer was 23 years old, when he wrote it!)

Felix Woyrsch: Study Symphony in B flat minor (1884?)
Evidence: 
https://soundcloud.com/harmo-nium/felix-woyrsch-symphonie-1884-b-minor-1st-mvt-virtual-performance

Not a fake, but Woyrsch's glorious tribute to his inspiration - Brahms.

[Ilja]

Ah, this makes sense. Zielke has been preparing Woyrsch' 6th symphony for recording. This might mean this early symphony is to be in the upcoming cpo release as well.

[Alan Howe]

Indeed. And you yourself wrote this back in August 2024:

I seem to remember that Walter Zielke also prepared the score of Woyrsch' 6th/7th symphony for the recording, so the fact that he's done work on the "0th/1st" may be significant.

[Ilja]

Ah, forgot about that...

Still, weird way to present it. Interested to hear the rest, of course.