Though Richard Wagner is about as sung as it gets, I was very curious about his more unsung son, Siegfried, since as a composer, he lived well into the 20th century - long enough to have heard developments such as Mahler, then the Second Viennese school, etc.
Is there any similarity in style between the two? I would imagine since Richard was such a dominent personality that it would be hard for the son to shake the influence. Does his music have any of the characteristics of Richard, the gravitas, the lush harmonies, etc.? Does it form a bridge between Richard and post Mahler at all or is it really just second rate?
I'd compare him more to a composer like Humperdinck. I have quite a lot of Siegfried's music (pretty well all orchestral), but can't say I find it all that distinctive. However, I'd certainly appreciate a steer towards, say, one opera that would be an absolute must-buy. Is anybody more in the know than me?
He's actually considerably more conservative musically than his father. He wrote a pleasant violin concerto, for example, which wouldn't have been out of place decades earlier. While I enjoy what I've heard of his music (which isn't a whole heck of a lot), I've always felt that he composed because it was expected of him rather than because he was driven to do so.
I read on wiki that it took him a long time to "find his voice" at first starting a career as an architect then as an adult deciding to pursue music. It might be presumptuous of me to infer reluctance to his part towards composition from this given he had the upbringing for it. It seems like many of Richards descendants are still alive but none are in music. The closest seems to be music administration which is probably more like managing an estate I would imagine.
I have eight of his operas in my collection. They are almost always pleasant, sometimes dramatic but never memorable listens. There's never much momentum, everything happens (if it happens at all) in his own good time. Stylistically there seem to be few links to his father, although the vocal lines are sometimes declamatory in the Wagnerian manner. I suspect that he was influenced by verismo and in that respect and in his operas' general sound world I always bracket him with Eugen D'Albert, although his writing lacks the latter's dark streak. I can't recommend a must-buy opera, Alan, because I honestly can't distinguish one from another.
The work of his which I play most isn't an opera at all but the relatively early symphonic poem Sehnsucht, which has a certain rhapsodic strength, is melodically more distinguished than most of his music and which exhibits a passion almost wholly lacking from the rest of his oeuvre.
I seem to remember a lot of his music sounding similar to Richard Strauss, but much less engaging. Though there was one piece I really enjoyed when it was played on the radio, I forget what though.
So interesting that Richard Wagner, whose music is imbued with passion, seems to have less in common with his son than he does with Richard Strauss. It would seem that Siegfried had a lot to live up to with limited interest in pursuing that direction where others were more than ready to take up the cause of the father. Of course, this is not that unusual historically, but very fascinating.
It seems like if I want to pursue the musical legacy of Richard Wagner, I should pursue Bruckner and Richard Strauss (his stylistic heirs) rather than his children.
The stylistic heirs of Wagner are to be found in all manner of composers that followed (not simply Strauss): try, for example, the operas of Chausson (Le Roi Arthus), d'Indy (Fervaal), Delius (Koanga), Pfitzner (Der arme Heinrich) and many others. Siegfried Wagner was not in their league as a creative artist and ploughed a rather narrow (and often much more gentle) late-Romantic furrow.
The French of the late-19th/early 20th Century were notorious Wagnerophiles, to the extent of rioting over continued composition of absolute music. "We want opera!" was the call to arms of protesting students who eventually lost a suit over their disruption of orchestral concerts.
Mark, I agree with you about "Sehnsucht"; I think it is more passionate because it is dedicated to his lover Clement Harris, who had died many years before in a war(this is well documented now, so please no claims of "that cannot be possibly so"!:)ie that they were lovers). However, the Symphony has its moments and there are very memorable themes in his operatic overtures; i am not very keen on the vocal sections of the operas either. I actually think when he is good he is very good, particuarly melodically; we have had threads on Siegried W before and I have always pointed out that there is a stream of almost endless memorable melody in "Sehnsucht", which means "longing"; or the Welsh word "hiraeth" would approximatively describe it; it is, to me, a classic:). I would recommend the excellent, wellrecorded 5 disc CPO set of his orchestral works and opera overtures
Clement Harris's music is also well worth exploring, some is available as Marco polo downloads.
Thanks Steve
Just a gentle reminder: let's not turn this into a thread solely about Siegfried, but keep to the issue of how his music compares with his father's.
Here's one excellent review of the orchestral music on cpo, which should give a decent idea how the comparison plays out:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2008/june08/Swagner_9996552.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2008/june08/Swagner_9996552.htm)
And here's a review of Die heilige Linde that also contains some useful points of comparison between son and father:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/nov03/SWagner_Heilige.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/nov03/SWagner_Heilige.htm)
Alan, I was trying to draw attention to the music of Siegried Wagner for its OWN merits, though I agree the title is indeed how he compares to his father; but why SHOULD he always be compared to his father, anymore than any other composer is compared to any other?; aren't these the types of comparisons we are fighting against on this site?! Eg. the received canonic opinion that eg Reinecke, is watered down Mendelssohn and Schumann(a remark often used by the Penguin and Gramophone Guides to Recorded Music in th last few years) and usually applied to most mid-Romantic composers. I agree there are stylistic similaritities between , particuarly MID RW and SW, eg the sweeping,lush melodies of SW at his best mirror similarly lush melodies and orchestration in the RW of "Lohengrin" and "Tannhauser", but I can at least tell SW is a late Romantic who is, overall, NOT RW, even if I can't always distinguish between him and other)non-related!) late Romantics!
I do not see if we are allowing 20th century, non tonal, Romantic era style downloads(which is FINE by me!:)), you can imply this is a tangent!I am rather hurt too, of course, because it is obvious, from my posting(which took lots of psyching up to make), that "Sehnsucht", being in memory of his same-sex lover Clement Harris, is significant to me personally, as a gay man, and, apart from that, certainly INFORMS the music, which is passionate and full of yearning in the same way as Tchaikovsky's "Romeo and Juliet"; so this is not actually going BEYOND the music: it is, like in all programmatic content works, an intrinsic PART of it.
Steve
Finally someone says it, the endless comparisons between composers mentioned on here serve no purpose whatsoever to me.
If I can't listen to a piece of music for itself, and in order to determine what its composer is saying about him or herself that I can resonate with, then I don't listen. No composer from the "greatest" to the "worst" has composed in a vacuum, so all have some influence from somewhere.
The moments of similarity do not automatically mean that everyone but the first composer to write that sound is somehow inferior.
I suppose it is impressive to some when a wannabe musicologist can pick up on something and describe it by measure number and key signature and the color of ink it was written in but NOT TO ME.
I am a music lover, not a musicologist and that's all I want to be, and I will decide what I like on my own. I happen to like Siegfried better than Richard, and if I knew for sure why, I wouldn't spout it.
To answer these points:
1. It's very simple really: we were asked in this thread about how son Siegfried compares with father Richard, so it's the task of the moderator to keep the thread on track. If members wish to discuss Siegfried alone, then they are perfectly at liberty to start another thread*...
2. This is quite obviously not a comparison like any other because it involves father and son; therefore it is vital to explore the musical connections between them.
My own personal view of Siegfried is that he wrote some fine music, but that his operas are pretty unmemorable - unlike those of his father who was a genius. I certainly wouldn't put him in the same category as composers like Reinecke whose music is much more memorable. But that's just my opinion. And so back to the topic, please...
*My apologies. There is an existing thread on Siegfried which I have resurrected here:
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,556.msg38629.html#new (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,556.msg38629.html#new)
And, having listened properly to Siegfried's Sehnsucht, I'd say the idiom was early Richard, i.e. Lohengrin/Tannhäuser. Interesting - because the son was obviously much more conservative in relation to his time than his father. But I do agree, Sehnsucht is a very nice piece, well worth investigating on its own terms.
Siegfried's music has an orchestral sound that obviously derives from Richard, particularly "forest murmurs" and the second act of Tristan, which echo consistently throughout his scores, and yet, he seldom lapses into mere imitation; this is an idiom he truly feels. He was an inspired melodist - more so than his distinguished contemporaries, Zemlinsky, Schreker, and Pfitzner, and certainly the equal of Strauss.
On the basis of his orchestral music alone, one hears perhaps, merely, a highly skilled craftsman in the post-romantic vein, but the operas show his genius.
There are magnificent performances of "An Allem ist Hutchen Schuld" (Hagen 1997) and "Schwarzschwanenreich"(Solingen -1983), but these, unfortunately are only available from the Siegfried Wagner Society. "An Allem..." is probably the finest marchenoper since "Hansel und Gretel," and "Schwarzschwanenreich," in the right performance, has an expressionistic fervor which is electrifying.
Regarding Siegfried, I sat on the fence for years. My conversion began with Mita's scene from "Der Friedensengel" - 20 minutes with interlude, culminating in a sublime Tristanesque coda (with Hanne Lore-Kuhse, available on Living Stage) This compares with anything by the great Richard. There are many other moments to cherish - the magnificent tournament scene from "Sternengebot;" the great ensemble from act 2 of "Der Schmied von Marienburg;" the incantation from "Bruder Lustig." I'd also recommend sampling a few selections from the Roman Trekel recital (Sonnenflammen, Herzog Wildgang, Die Heidenkonig), as well as Dagmar Schellenberger in scenes from "Schwarzschwanenreich," Die Heidenkonig" and "Der Schmied von Marienburg." I guarantee you'll want to hear more.
I have CDs of 12 operas by Siegfried Wagner, though I do not know his orchestral music. The recordings include one of a performance of Der Friedensengel in 1975, which I remember attending. Stylistically and in terms of quality, he seems to me to stand in his relation to his father much as Mascagni does to Verdi, with the difference that Mascagni was a more varied composer. Once he has found his voice in Sternengebot, Siegfried sticks to it, and the music for this and subsequent operas is pretty interchangeable.
There is some impressive Wild Hunt music in Banadietrich, in respectable emulation of the Ride of the Valkyries, but Siegfried's main talent seems to me to be for long, meditative melodies. These, however, are generally built out of rather short phrases, never attaining the huge span of some of Richard's melodies, and when listening to them I'm simultaneously moved and disturbed by the feeling that I can see how the conjuror does the trick. His hearty, diatonic, völkisch melodies I find less appealing.
Most of his plots obscurely explore tangled complexes of guilt and innocence, but that of Die Heilige Linde (1927) is alarmingly clear, or ought to be. It is set, nominally, in the third century AD, but its relevance to the present is not hard to work out. Germany is in a bad way: its sacred linden tree has been cut down (the Treaty of Versailles) and it is in hock to a Rome controlled by Syrians (Jews). Eventually there emerges a hero (guess who), who will restore the nation. His mission is symbolized by a new linden tree that will flourish for a thousand years. The booklet that comes with the CDs ties itself in knots in failing to see the obvious import of the text. (Brigitte Hamann's book on Winifred Wagner, however, reveals that in 1923 Siegfried and Winifred were in Munich in the hope of celebrating Hitler's putsch). Die Heilige Linde is exactly the kind of nationalistic, anti-Semitic opera that Richard Wagner is--wrongly in my view--accused of writing. Nevertheless, the prelude is one of Siegfried's most sustained and gripping musical structures.
Fascinating Derek, thank you for that insight.
Indeed, very enlightening, Derek. Doesn't make me want to listen to his music all that much...
Hasn't stopped me from enjoying his instrumental music (though hypocritically, learning that Günther Kiesewetter, say, was a member of one of the "Turner Clubs" and wrote a rather proto-fascist-seeming vocal march for them decreased (without wholly eliminating) my interest in doing any substantial cleaning-up work on his music as scanned at LoC...)
Sorry I didn't make the case for Siegfried Wagner; I think his music is unduly neglected. I do agree with Derek on one point - Siegfried is to Richard as Mascagni is to Verdi. Eduard Hanslick said as much in 1899 when he proclaimed Mascagni and S. Wagner (along with Perosi) the most promising composers of the younger generation.
As for Siegfried finding a sound & style, and sticking to it, I don't see how that makes him any different from most composers (Tchaikovsky, Strauss.....); it certainly has no bearing on the caliber of his music.
On another note, Siegfried's ties to the Nazi party were tenuous, at best; "Die Heilige Linde" was never performed. In fact, the party's view of Siegfried's music appears to be much the same as posterity's - weak, watered-down, and unworthy of his 'noble' heritage. Best regards, Gene
Its interesting that you say that Siegfried Wagner is more like Humperdinck than his father in style Alan, as I gather Richard was too busy to teach his son personally and therefore farmed him out to Humperdinck for instruction. Personally, not being an opera buff, I enjoy the classical style of Richard's early Symphony equally to the moderate late romantic style of the Symphony that Siegfried wrote in his old age, after retiring from the operatic scene.
I think Gene and I are in agreement about Siegfried's merits as a composer: the comparison with Mascagni was meant as praise. I'm grateful for the information--of which I was unaware--that Hanslick praised Siegfried. Another defender was Arnold Schoenberg: 'The son of Richard Wagner is as an artist the victim of a pedantic theory whereby he is not judged for what he is worth, but according to a supposed law of nature by which a great man cannot have a great son, though Johann Sebastian Bach had two very great sons and Siegfried Wagner is a more profound and more original artist than many who are famous today'.
Part of Richard Wagner's greatness is his astonishing ability to reinvent music afresh, and in a different way, in every work. I concede, however, that the diversity of Meistersinger, Götterdämmerung and Parsifal doesn't make any of them, individually, greater than it already is.
As for Siegfried's politics, I think the jury is still out, but veering to condemnation. His anti-semitic, pro-Hitler remarks during the US trip are a matter of record. An exhibition at this year's Bayreuth Festival sought to atone for the Festival's disgraceful treatment of the Jews. With Richard, it went over the top (even Ortrud was seen as a Jew-figure), but it convincingly argued that Siegfried's conversion to racial tolerance was pragmatic. A distinguished Wagner scholar recently told me that a letter from Siegfried to Hitler had surfaced, though he didn't say what it contained.
Most of my information about Siegfried--apart from that gleaned by listening to his operas--is taken from Brigitte Hamann's biography of Winifred and from Oliver Hilmes's Cosimas Kinder, though neither discusses Siegfried's creative output. From the former, I seem to recall that Goebbels despised Siegfried as a degenerate, but that Hitler opined that his operas were unjustly neglected. I don't know whether he actually knew them, however.
Nevertheless, it is interesting that the anti-Nazi Friedelind Wagner remained a defender of her father.
I still find all the talk about Siegfried's music more interesting than the music itself. Ah well...
Quote from: saxtromba on Monday 23 July 2012, 20:34
He's actually considerably more conservative musically than his father. He wrote a pleasant violin concerto, for example, which wouldn't have been out of place decades earlier. While I enjoy what I've heard of his music (which isn't a whole heck of a lot), I've always felt that he composed because it was expected of him rather than because he was driven to do so.
The point bolded above I agree with...
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 26 November 2012, 11:24
I still find all the talk about Siegfried's music more interesting than the music itself. Ah well...
I agree, Alan, the seductive
Sehnsucht notwithstanding.
I think making comparisons is actually quite a useful device for getting to understand a composer's work, and I've found the talk on this thread particularly fascinating. Thanks, to all concerned. :)
The problem with Siegfried Wagner may be in that so much was expected from him all along due to his DNA. Remember that there was not only his father, but that his paternal grandfather was Franz Lizst. And everyone at the time was looking at his compositional talent was looking at it through that lens... He is not the 1st famous artistic son to have to deal with that...
Franz Xaver Mozart music anyone? During their lifetimes, Bach's four sons were prominent... moreso than their father, but as time wore on, the father's stature gradually overwhelmed them...
I think comparisons to the Wagners can be looked at from that aspect as well.
Certainly, Unsung Composers includes a number of the relatives of famous/Sung composers. I'm sure the weight of expectation must be burdensome.
I just watched the on-line trailer for the 60-minute DVD documentary on Siegfried Wagner....
http://siegfriedwagner.com/es/trailer-siegfried-wagner.html
....which begins with a sequence looking and sounding rather like an excerpt from Tristan and Isolde, and moves on to some complimentary remarks from Schoenberg to the effect that a musical genius father doesn't preclude a musical genius son, and citing the Bach family as an example. Dare I say that the turn of the century saw the rise of hereditarian theory, which for most people made Siegfried's musical genius a fait accompli.
Quote from: Edward on Monday 03 December 2012, 14:52
The problem with Siegfried Wagner may be in that so much was expected from him all along due to his DNA.
The expectations perhaps started at home. Writing to King Ludwig (1 October 1874), Wagner commented on Siegfried's astonishing likeness to the Christ-child of the Sistine Madonna, and continued: 'it is impossible that this son will not be significant'.
Four years later, Siegfried's future is more elaborately worked out:
'Over coffee, discussion of Fidi's future, we resolve to have him trained as a surgeon, so that he may become a useful and beneficent person here in the place where his father brought a glorious ideal into being; he must of course provide aid without charging for it, thereby earning himself the right to live independently of the world and, if possible, to represent his father's ideas' (Diary, 26 September 1878).
There are worries about his 'signs of effeminacy' and about the previous great men--Goethe, Schiller, Weber--whose sons have amounted to nothing (14 and 16 June, 1882), but Wagner seems nevertheless to have been a kind and attentive parent. At one point he told Siegfried that it would be fine if he merely grew up to be kind and humorous ((Diary, 24 July 1872).
The highly-strung Cosima, however, seems to have been more difficult:
'At lunch a dismal occurrence; Fidi [Siegfried] behaves badly toward his father; the dreadful thought that he might prove unworthy of him takes possession of me, and this thought, instead of being turned against myself in resigned acknowledgment of original sin, turns inside me against my child, and I hit him, so violently that it causes bruises. No words, not even my sobs, can express the horror I feel about myself—oh, fortunate people who lived in times when one could atone! In this instance, as always, R. heavenly toward me. But, alas, no kindness could help me here' (22 July 1878)
Poor man.
Some horribly revealing and fascinating quotations here, Derek. 'Phew, fancy having Cosima as one's mum. Unthinkable! Rather a wonder that Siegfried survived into adulthood.
Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Tuesday 18 December 2012, 11:50
'Phew, fancy having Cosima as one's mum. Unthinkable!
Cosima's most notorious maternal failing occurred in 1913, when she claimed in court, falsely but successfully, that her daughter Isolde was the daughter not of Wagner but of von Bülow. This involved shredding her own honour by stating that she had been having sexual relations with von Bülow and Wagner at the same time, but she thereby ensured that the heritage of Bayreuth should go to Siegfried rather than to Isolde's son. From this many evils followed, as we all know.
In his book
Cosimas Kinder Oliver Hilmes suggests that Cosima was manipulated by Eva and Houston Stewart Chamberlain, and to some extent a prisoner of them, and that (for example) she was never told of Isolde's death in 1919. I don't know how reliable this is.
One impression I got from Hilmes's book was that Siegfried had a far more ruthless compositional schedule than his father. The Great Man must not be disturbed. The elder Wagner, by contrast, had so much time for family, friends, reading, correspondence, and trips to the pub that it's difficult to believe that, in the midst of it all, he was composing some of the most massive masterworks in musical history.
Quote from: Derek Hughes on Tuesday 18 December 2012, 13:42Siegfried had a far more ruthless compositional schedule than his father. The Great Man must not be disturbed.
Pity he wasn't distracted a bit more. He might have written less; and it might have been of greater quality. But I jest... ;)