I believe we've all lamented that our favorite composers never composed in a certain medium. Me, I'll go to my grave wishing that Hummel had not been intimidated by Beethoven from essaying symphonies. His composition for orchestra epitomizes "Early Romantic" to me.It's classically-based, but there are new colors that weren't conceived before. Brahms never wrote an Opera. Wagner never penned a (mature) symphony in his characteristic orchestral style. In the era of Field and Hummel, Schubert never created a piano concerto. If you really fantasize, you can envision exotic,really novel effects like a concerto for oboe & harp, or bassoon and cello which noone ever composed. Does anyone have a fantasy such as this, a haunting, "What If"? A "What would a _____ by _______ sound like? Do any members have stories of works which were written but lost, e.g. Beethovens Oboe Concerto? Or works projected by a composer, but never completed, or even started.( Again, Beethoven long contemplated a "Faust" Opera.) With the vivid creativity, learning, and adventurousness pervading this forum, this seemed as if it could be a very enjoyable & educational exercise, causing a little baring of the soul and sharing of knowledge. With so many of these attributes, maybe one of you can find a Hummel symphony in a church belltower for me! ( I know there aren't any, but "What if.....?!"
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there's a lot of music for oboe, harp and orchestra, including a concerto by Lutoslawski. He was neither unsung- by the time he wrote the concerto, anyway - nor a Romantic by our lights - but he existed and should be acknowledged...
As far as lost goes, check out http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,854.0.html
As far as "wish they had written"....well a bass clarinet concerto by anyone for starters :P
Honestly I could imagine many composers writing many things they didn't. I couldn't even get started because it'd be pretty much "x type from these 20 composers" and "y type from these 19".
One interesting work I would have loved to hear would be an "auxiliary woodwind" piece, be it a chamber piece or concertante type.
And as far as bassoon and cello? I would be shocked if there's no baroque one or possibly a Sinfonia Concertante.
thought there was a bass-clarinet concerto before the 20th century, but I am not at all sure. several in the latter half of the 20th century though. anyhow. carry on, carry on...
About "works projected, but never completed or started" (and sung composers too are indicated) my dreams would surely concern Ravel. If I remember correctly he embarked on an opera "La Cloche engloutie" and wrote (in letters to friends) about projects concerning Jeanne d'Arc and St.Francois of Assisi (a work by him should have been much shorter and I dare say much more appealing than Messiaen's one). And there is the (by Ravel quoted) "Zakpiak-bat", divertimento on basque themes for piano and orchesta (apparently partially composed, and in fragments transmigrated into the piano Trio or later into the Concerto in G).
Other fancy: a fully completed Symphony by Elgar "dedicated to General Gordon" (sketches transmigrated into the Second?).
A different case should be Sibelius Eight Symphony; it seems to have been completed and destroyed.
A King Lear by Verdi? It was projected.
And concerning complete freedom of fancy, I am allowed to think about a Dukas piano concerto or a second symphony ......and much else by many others.
Gentlemen, Thank you for taking the interest and replying. To clarify, which I didn't fully, I was, loosely, thinking of the Romantic Era. eschiss, thanks for recognizing Lutoslawski. Even though 20th Century music is mostly out of my orbit, I had heard of his double concerto. I would go out of my way to hear the soundscape of his work.He gets a smile from me just for doing something different. This topic does overlap an often visited one on this forum, in which we've wished for 19th Century concerti that were for instruments other than piano, violin, or cello. When I said, "oboe & harp", I meant that it's hard to imagine a Romantic double concerto that is not for, say, violin and cello. I agre completely that there very likely is a bassoon & cello work, originating from the Baroque or Classical Era. Possibility for that being written in the Romantic Age evaporates, but my question is who would you like to have taken that chance? For example, despite the piano being central to his output( lieder, solo, four hands...) why didn't Schubert write a piano concerto? What could it have sounded like? Does anyone wish he had? Despite the accomplished efforts of Weber, Crusell and Spohr, Schubert wasn't enticed to pen a Clarinet Concerto, either. The oboe was obviously of personal, profound import to Wagner, so I wish he had written a concerto for it, even if a little "recreationally", for exercise, or his own satisfaction. Brahms was so rigorously guided by classical principles, that it's almost funny to imagine him writing a Harp Concerto. And he surely would have sneered at any contemporary who did. Yet, in his Op. 17 songs the harp has a beautiful presence insongs for Womens Chorus. If he had invested a concerto with his usual seriousness of intent, it could have been beautiful! I just envisioned this topic eliciting some very creative suggestions from members, who also would have a flair for uniting a composer with a work that was an excellent "fit" for them, so much so that you would think, " How natural!"--until you realized they , of course, never did. As eschiss said, carry on & have fun!
Alberto, A Dukas piano concerto! That's my boy! That's what I meant. Sadly, he may have written one--he was so self-critical he may have destroyed it. Actually, I'm sure we would have had some clue to go by, if he had. All the same, that is what I meant: take a favorite composer, a genre you have a deep love for, an empty space, a shrewd estimate of what your composer was proficient at, and....what do you see?
I've always been amazed, given his personality and experience, that Mahler never wrote an opera - although I do have a friend who maintains that the Mahler Eighth is an opera in disguise.
Perhaps a violin or cello concerto from Amy Beach. A cello concerto by Moszkowski. A couple more piano concertos each from Rachmaninoff and Xaver Scharwenka. Or really far out, how about an organ concerto by Bruckner - now that really stretchs the imagination......And almost anything from George Gershwin. For starters.
Jerry
Beethoven cello concerto. The story (that he offers to write one for Romberg but Romberg turns him down) never fails to leave a pang in my chest when I think of it.
Re: Ravel
There's apparently sketches for La Cloche engloutie, as well as Olympia (part of what was written was reused in L'Heure Espagnole)
The Piano Concerto on Basque Themes 'Zaspiak-Bat' also has sketches apparently. There's also apparently an 'oratotio ballet' called Morgiane.
I wish Dame Ethel Smyth had written a piano concerto, that Faure and Ravel had each written flute concertos, that horses could fly...
I remember being excited to find the trombone concerto by Ferdinand David, as per the dearth mentioned above of Romantic concertos for less usual instruments. I have heard some modern bass clarinet concertos, but somehow their composers seem to think that squawk sounds better than a beautiful bass heart-wrenching sound. Anyway, this is a fun thread. Jim
the mention of women's chorus reminds me by the way that I was listening to John Fernstrom's concertino for flute, women's chorus and orchestra yesterday. 10 minutes of loveliness. had heard a little by him before but that was ...erm... gah, I'm good at digressing.
haven't heard the one that does yet, but I wish more than one of the supposedly-once-8 youthful Ysaÿe violin concertos survived. Or Samuel Barber's early missing violin sonata. but yes, that's another thread... missing actual works or not-so-missing but not yet "realized" manuscripts (like Stanford's 2nd violin concerto whose orchestral accompaniment may be all that lacks, but otherwise exists in copies in one or even two places - in libraries in NY State (Pierpont Morgan) and England (RCM, I believe.))
closer to topic... I'll think about it; too many possibilities on the one hand... and a difficult question really on the other - Hummel didn't leave symphonies (or they haven't been found :) ) but he did leave numerous works in the large and serious forms - sonatas, concertos, trios, 3 quartets... JL Dussek likewise (including 3 very good string quartets indeed, his opus 60 of 1807). Then there are composers that so far as one knows only attempted small forms and did them very well- and this is no easy thing and not to be deprecated. Yet sometimes I think maybe some of them might have been able to combine songfulness with the long view of a sustained large structure to produce something really compelling - I find this in Stenhammar, say, whose songs show the same qualities as his string quartets and other excellent (I think!) larger works in small, as it were, who did indeed do as well in both the miniature and the extended and brought both skills to each - ... anyway. Some should not have tried; some never did and maybe should have; some did and certainly succeeded to our benefit. I ramble - again :)
Quote from: jimmattt on Thursday 31 March 2011, 21:51
I remember being excited to find the trombone concerto by Ferdinand David, as per the dearth mentioned above of Romantic concertos for less usual instruments.
Interesting, isn't it, that the most well known concerto from the whole century for the instrument was from a violin virtuoso!
Um, it's actually a concertino. For the record.
Puccini Violin Concerto
Wagner Symphony (mature)
Mozart Violin Concerto K6..
would explain the popularity of all those Mozart concertos he didn't (entirely) write (Adelaide, etc.) :)
Puccini and Verdi both....not to mention Wagner....I would have loved to see more long purely instrumental works from.
I'm a big fan of Hamilton Harty's music....fresh, lyrical, spontaneous and dramatic. He would have written a fabulous opera.
I wish Holst had written the theme song for the TV programme "Minder" Or at least arranged it for brass.
Seriously though, I wish Finzi had completed a piano concerto; that Sibelius had not destroyed his 8th symphony; that liszt had finished St. Stanislaus; and that Mendelssohn had completed his Christus oratorio...
Kola, As the initiator of this thread, thanks for participating in and reviving it.Your wishes are not only exciting, they're very worthy and significant. Now I want what you want! You really contributed value and interest to the original question, and I just wanted to tell you.
A bassoon concerto by Schumann !!!!???!!!
The Symphony No.2 in D which Arthur Sullivan was reported to be engaged on in 1868, the Violin Concerto which Edward German certainly was engaged on in 1900 but which he abandoned in order to complete The Emerald Isle, and the Symphony by Herbert Howells that he was never engaged on at all. :)
Quote from: dafrieze on Thursday 31 March 2011, 14:14
I've always been amazed, given his personality and experience, that Mahler never wrote an opera
He did write about half of one, when he completed Weber's unfinished
Die Drei Pintos.
There is a story about Rachmaninoff, when asked why he had never written a major work for violin, he said (and I'm paraphrasing), why would I write for violin when we have cello?
His cello sonata is sublime, and I always wished that he had written a cello concerto. Or maybe a double concerto for piano and cello.
I have heard a reworking of the cello sonata into a concerto by Warren Cohen. It's better than I thought it would be, as Cohen did not simply transcribe and orchestrate. (You can find it on YouTube) But still, that's not the same thing.
Thanks, Amphissa, for pointing to the "concerto". I listened to it with interest, as the cello sonata is the piece that first turned me on to chamber music as a whole. And surely is my favorite sonata for that instrument. I suppose if you had never heard the sonata, one might be slightly impressed with the concerto but IMHO the piano makes the sonata. I've said this before here, I think. He might well have called it a piano sonata with cello obbligato.
For me, it falls into the same catagory as the so-called 5th Piano Concerto in which in my opinion, the piano part doesn't sound like Rachmaninoff at all.
But that's just one guy's opinion.
Jerry
I agree of course. I do wish he really had written a cello concerto.
An Elgar opera would undoubtedly have been a wonderful thing. And I wish Mackenzie had written the symphony he apparently worked on.
No good wishing really - but still, I would have liked a late symphony by George Butterworth, for obvious reasons - damn that 'war to end all wars'! :(
A Concerto for Hardanger Fiddle & Orchestra by Grieg, just because it would have sounded so magnificent!
And, lastly, a magical, transcendent Guitar Concerto by Delius ..... his impressionistic style is so suited to the guitar, it has always baffled me why no guitarists seem attracted to his music. ???
Oh, I love the idea of a Delius guitar concerto! And so many of these other ideas.
Chopin's Piano Quintet - the one that he'd not have written until he was at least 70, mind...
Litolff's Symphony - his orchestration is excellent, as well as his mastery of form (witness the PCs); he was admired by no less a figure than Berlioz
Tausig's Piano Concerto (a great virtuoso, it would surely have been a barnstorming creation - it is mentioned by Dannreuther in his Grove article, so may have existed at one time, but opinions differ on that question)
Zarebski's Piano Concerto (much the same as with Tausig above - it is thought that Zarebski wrote a PC, but the evidence is slim and no MS has so far appeared)
Ethel Smyth's Piano Concerto (mentioned before, I know) - there's a lady who could give a good account of herself in music
Tchaikovsky's Requiem - given the glorious passion and lyricism of his music, it would have been interesting to see what he made of the traditional Latin Mass text
Herz's Concerto for Coloratura soprano - in his PCs the piano lines (esp. in the slow movts, but elsewhere too) are very vocal
Richard Strauss's Konzertstück for 4 Wagner Tubas & orchestra - Strauss' horn concertos are brilliant and effective pieces; it would be fun to hear that facility translated into something for Wagner tubas
Mrs. Beach's Piano Concerto #2 (rumored to exist at one time......)
Moszkowski - another piano concerto
Arensky - cello concerto
Glazunov - cello concerto, piano concerto #3
Mahler - a concerto of some kind. Perhaps cello or violin, a venue to showcase those lovely bittersweet melodies like the ones in the 9th and 10th symphonys.
Jerry
Bruckner, ballet-pantomime Pierrot and the Wood Nymph
Gershwin, The Last Seven Words of Christ
Pettersson, Divertimento
Delius, Passacaglia and Fugue on a Moravian Hymn Tune
Ebenezer Prout, Psyche et Eros
It would be interesting if people could give at least a passing rationale for their wish list. This one is obviously for amusement - like wishing that Mahler had written tangos! ;D
Re Glazunov cello concerto- what, his concerto-ballata (in C, Op.108) isn't enough? ??
Quote from: kolaboy on Thursday 12 May 2011, 20:51
I wish Holst had written the theme song for the TV programme "Minder" Or at least arranged it for brass.
Seriously though, I wish Finzi had completed a piano concerto; that Sibelius had not destroyed his 8th symphony; that liszt had finished St. Stanislaus; and that Mendelssohn had completed his Christus oratorio...
We have Finzi's projected middle movement of the Piano Concerto he started to write in 1927 - the
Eclogue. It was no so named by Finzi, but added by a sensitive publisher wanting to suggest its quiet, pastoral character of the music. It is a beautiful creation and makes one hungry for the remainder of the work that Finzi never wrote.
I believe the 'Grand Fantasia and Toccata' was another movement of the same projected concerto
Albion and myself have posted about the projected Finzi piano concerto before:
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1600.msg20961.html#msg20961 (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1600.msg20961.html#msg20961)
Thanks for that. So let's move on...
Okay, I would like to have Leevi Madetoja's projected 4th Symphony. Erkki Salmenhaare mentioned that Madetoja also planned a violin concerto and a Finnish Parsifal. According to Salmenhaara 'various misfortunes, but above all decades of hard work and financial worries undermined the composer's health' and his projects came to nothing.
BTW, wasn't there a lady a few decades ago who wrote down works which dead composers 'dictated' her from beyond? So I think we should try to find such a medium and ask her if she could coax our favourite composers to stream a few masterworks via the aether. ;D
This lady was criticised because she could offer only small piano pieces. If Bruckner cared to give us further samples of his genius wouldn't he choose something more spectacular? Finishing his 9th symphony perhaps?
Well, I don't believe this story but let's imagine a little supernatural dialogue:
Lady: Great spirit of Anton Bruckner, would you do me the honour of dictating a piece of music to me?
Spirit of Bruckner: What a great chance! I long to finish my symphony for ages!!!
Lady: Oh, I am sorry, my musical abilities are not sufficiant enough to deal with the big stuff. Would you mind offering me a little waltz instead?
;D
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 17 September 2012, 21:32
Tchaikovsky's Requiem - given the glorious passion and lyricism of his music, it would have been interesting to see what he made of the traditional Latin Mass text
I don't think he could have warmed to that idea. Do you know the story about the projected requiem to a poem by Apukhtin?
http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/people/apukhtin_aleksei.html (http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/people/apukhtin_aleksei.html)
OK, moving on from Rosemary Brown...
Given that this subject of this thread takes us into the world of complete fantasy, and also that some of the most interesting 'conversations' in the blogosphere arise tangentially, must we be herded back to the point quite so peremptorily?
Lionel, I'd like to hear more about your conversation with Rosemary Brown, so may I suggest that you start the ball rolling in a new thread?
I've moved the Rosemary Brown posts to a new thread here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3801.0.html).
Also, re another element in one of the lists, above- Moszkowski- another piano concerto- do you mean a no.3, since there _are_ two in existing manuscripts (manuscripts or scores), one of them it seems needing revival, editing and resurrection (the early B minor) but location known?
(I see that the closest Elgar got to an opera is the sketches to The Spanish Lady, op.89. Interesting...)
Quote from: jerfilm on Monday 17 September 2012, 22:13
Arensky - cello concerto
Glazunov - piano concerto #3
Jerry
Glazunov Piano Concerto No. 3?
This is a fun thread! I'll restrict myself to:
Cello concertos by Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov
A mature symphony by Wagner
A symphony by Holst in the style of The Planets
A piano concerto by Mussorgsky
A harp concerto by Ravel
A violin concerto by Gershwin
The odd thing is, I am probably not alone in being able to imagine what these works would sound like! As far as UCs are concerned, I think a late Piano Concerto by Arthur Foote might have been a great work - if his Piano Quintet is any indicator.
Mahler did write an opera in his student days: Herzog Ernst von Schwaben. It was unfinished.
He also composed incidental music for Der Trompeter von Sackingen of which the Blumine movement still survives.
How about a piano concerto by Gliere, or cello concertos by Litolff, Brull or Moszkowski?
I would have liked to have seen a piano concerto from Miaskovsky as well. Also, a few more tone poems from Liadov would have been nice!