Numbering of the Symphonies:
There are currently nine surviving symphonies by Cipriani Potter (1792-1871), although the numbering of them is very confusing. The following list gives a basic chronological number (on the left), together with an alternative numbering often employed.
[No.1] G minor (1819, revised 1824/6) - referred to as No.1
[No.2] B flat major (1821, revised 1839) - referred to as No.2
[No.3] C minor (1826) - alternatively No.6
[No.4] F major (1826) - alternatively No.7
[No.5] E flat major (1828, revised 1846) - alternatively No.8
[No.6] G minor (1832) - alternatively No.10
[No.7] D major (1833) - alternatively No.11
[No.8] C minor (1834) - alternatively No. 12
[No.9] D major (1834) - alternatively No.14 or 15
The discrepancies in numbering are based on an acknowledgement that several intervening symphonies are now unfortunately 'missing', presumed lost (for example, three alleged lost works are presumed to intervene between the 1821 B flat major and the 1826 C minor Symphonies).
To compound confusion, Potter was apt to give his symphonies numberings such as 'D no.2' or 'D no.4', leading some scholars to assume that there must have originally been two other symphonies in D (i.e. 'D no.1' and 'D no.3'). Potter himself numbered the 1826 C minor as No.6, the 1826 F major as No.7, the 1828 E flat as No.8 and the 1832 G minor as No.10 on the autograph scores.
It is known that in 1833 Potter responded to a Royal Philharmonic Society commission with a Symphony in A minor. However, shortly after Potter's death, his one-time pupil and eventual successor as Principal of the Royal Academy George Macfarren gave a memorial lecture referring to a corpus of nine symphonies. This total was also confirmed by the first edition of Grove's Dictionary (volume III, 1883) and Brown & Stratton's 'British Musical Biography' (1897), although the latter mentions a 'Symphony in A'.
Whatever the numbering system employed, at present there are nine extant works.
Autograph manuscripts and printed editions:
Most of the manuscript full scores are now held by the British Library. Six were deposited there as part of the Royal Philharmonic Society Archive:
G minor (1819/26) - RPS MS 159; B flat (1821) - RPS MS 160; G minor (1832) - RPS MS 161; D major (1833) - RPS MS 162; C minor (1834) - RPS MS 163; D major (1834) - RPS MS 164.
The autograph scores of the remaining three symphonies, in C minor (1826), F major (1826) and E flat major (1828) are contained in a single volume - Ms. Add. 31783.
Also included in the Royal Philharmonic Society collection at the British Library are three piano concertos in D minor, E flat major and E major (RPS MSS 170-172) [surely strong candidates for Hyperion's RPC series] and four overtures - the Overture in E minor (1815 and 1848 versions), Antony and Cleopatra, Cymbeline and The Tempest (RPS MSS 165-169).
The Royal Academy of Music Library holds the following manuscript full scores: the 1839 revision of the Symphony in B flat (MS 259), two copies of the 1846 revision of the Symphony in E flat major (MSS 191/1154) and the 1830 cantata Medora e Corrado (MS 1152).
The 1832 G minor Symphony was published in full score as volume 77 of 'Musica Britannica' in 2001, whilst the Overture to Antony and Cleopatra was included in 'The Overture in England' (Garland Publishing, 1984). Except for Potter's own piano duet arrangements of the G minor (1832) and D major (1834) symphonies, nothing else has been published.
Literature:
Potter was the subject of a PhD thesis by Philip Henry Peter - 'The Life and Work of Cipriani Potter (1792-1871)' (Northwestern University, 1972).
The best modern appreciation of Potter is to be found in Brown and Hart's seminal 'Symphonic Repertoire' volume III, part B (Indiana University Press, 2007), but Percy Young also thought highly of Potter ('A History of British Music', 1967, pp. 442-5).
Recordings:
Two commercial recordings have been issued:
Symphonies in E flat (1828) & G minor (1832) (Milton Keynes CO/ Hilary Davan Wetton) Unicorn-Kanchana DKP(CD) 9091 [deleted]
Symphony in F (1826) [with Sterndale Bennett G minor Symphony, Op.43] (Czech Chamber PO/ Douglas Bostock) ClassicO CLASSCD634 [also deleted, though copies are still obtainable]
At various dates between 1989 and 1995 BBC Radio 3 broadcast studio recordings by the Ulster Orchestra conducted by Hilary Davan Wetton, Roy Goodman and Jerzy Maksymiuk which comprised the Symphonies in F (1826), C minor (1826), E flat (1828), G minor (1832), C minor (1834) and D major (1834), the Overture to The Tempest (1837) and the 1846 revision of the second movement of the Symphony in E flat.
Thanks for moving the thread.
I listened to the G minor symphony of 1832 this afternoon - I have the CD courtesy of John White. And what a very fine piece it is too...
Yes, Cipriani Potter is really one of the greatest 'undiscovered' composers that Britain has ever produced. He abandoned composition relatively early in his life and his natural modesty meant that he did absolutely nothing to promote his own works. His symphonies are far stronger candidates for revival than those by Macfarren, whose F minor [No.4] and C sharp minor [no.7] symphonies (recorded by CPO in 1998) are interestingly constructed and worth hearing but lack the crucial element of melody - significantly this recording was heralded as the beginning of a series, but got no further! By contrast, Potter seemed to have an almost Schubertian gift for memorable tunes allied with a sure sense of form and an imaginative orchestral palette.
I agree. Potter is both an able craftsman and has a fine ear for colour. I was struck by some almost Berwaldian passages in the finale of the G minor work. I'd say he was an important voice - and we have neglected him terribly. Clearly, The British musical renaissance started well before Elgar!
I have dedicated a little bit of time playing his piano sonata Op.1, after reading that Potter studied with Woelfl, who is one of my favourite unsungs.
I am assuming that this is an early work by the Opus number and due to the fact that it could have been written by Woelfl himself.
Not heard any recordings, but I submit his piano works could be worth recording as well.
Thal
A pleasant historical exercise: listening to Cherubini's D-minor symphony, Mendelssohn's Italian symphony, and Potter's No. 6 in G minor -- works commissioned by the Royal Academy in three successive years.
Macfarren (from whom I take the above factoid), in an appreciative article, identifies Potter (perhaps with some exaggeration) as the first Englishman to know how to compose a Durchfuehrung -- in Potter's diction, a "plan" -- adding that in so doing Potter showed his compatriots how to make "music really into an art instead of an accident." High praise, indeed.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Tuesday 13 April 2010, 19:39
I was struck by some almost Berwaldian passages in the finale of the G minor work.
I had exactly the same feeling! Since Berwald is my favourite unsung, I would very much like to hear more of Potters symphonic works.
All this reminds me that, on the occasion of the bicentenary of Potter's birth in 1992, I sent a stiff letter on cardboard to the then editor of BBC Music Magazine decrying the fact that she and the BBC hadn't done anything to celebrate the event. It was printed, but no mention was made of what I wrote it on. :)
Too subtle, John, evidently...
You can hear a snatch of the C minor symphony if you go to virtuallyunknown.co.uk . Ros Trubcher, a former poster on the old Forum has put it into Finale Software which gives quite a realistic rendering of it using Garritan Personal Orchestra.
Very funny,actually! No sense of irony,eh?
Browsing the online catalogue of the British Library Sound Archive I just came across this startling entry:
Symphony in A minor
Potter, Cipriani
Work title: Symphony in A minor
Author/Composer: Potter, Cipriani
LIST RECORDINGS: Symphony in A minor/Potter
Holdings
WORKS-FILE Copies Material Location
LINK TO RECORDINGS 1 WORK Recorded
Symphony in A minor/Potter
Philomusica of London
FIND WORK DETAILS: Symphony in A minor/Potter
Performer: Philomusica of London
Performer: Littaur, David (Conductor)
FIND FORMAT: NP2688BW
Holdings
RECORDING Copies Material Location
NP2688BW BD 1 1 RECORDING Store
Now, unless this is wrongly catalogued in some detail (probable), this is quite astounding. An A minor symphony (commissioned by the the Royal Philharmonic Society in 1833) is one of the supposed 'lost' Potter symphonies. No date is given for the recording but the Boyd Neel Orchestra was renamed the Philomusica of London in 1948. I'll contact the Archive and the present conductor of the Philomusica and see what they make of it!
I joined this forum purely because I stumbled on this thread while looking for sources of the scores for Potter's symphonies. Incidentally, thank you to the OP for posting such detailed information about the holdings for those sources.
I own a copy of the Potter F major/Sterndale Bennett G minor symphonies CD. I have to say, the F major symphony is a very impressive work. I'm most familiar with the first movement which has a strong Beethovian "thrust" to the premier coup d'archet. What comes across most however is Potter's ingenious use of textures and excellent ear for colour and timbre which has been mentioned before. There are some wonderful passages with interjections from the woodwind choir, with little effects like an attack as the parts scrunch together harmonically, which gives it an unexpected sting. All sorts of little details like that elevate him above mediocrity, plus of course the Schubertian skill for melodic writing, which has also been mentioned. There also seems to be a mood of unrestful storminess which pervades the first movement, perhaps some influence from Mendelssohn, who I presume he knew quite well? All together it's a very accomplished work, it has a degree of Beethovian power but it's tempered with sweetness and typical English good humour. I highly recommend it.
Glad to be of service - it's great to have another Potter-enthusiast on-board!
Quote from: Albion on Sunday 18 April 2010, 11:02
An A minor symphony (commissioned by the the Royal Philharmonic Society in 1833) is one of the supposed 'lost' Potter symphonies. No date is given for the recording but the Boyd Neel Orchestra was renamed the Philomusica of London in 1948. I'll contact the Archive and the present conductor of the Philomusica and see what they make of it!
Further to the 'A minor' Symphony: pending a reply from the Sound Archive at the British Library, I had another trawl through the online catalogue. By following another circuitous route I discovered that the performance was broadcast on BBC Radio 3 on 19th February 1976 as part of a programme which also contained Elgar's 'Sursum Corda' and Ethel Smyth's Concerto for Violin and Horn. The present conductor of the Philomusica is currently stranded in Italy, but has promised to get in touch when he gets back to the UK!
Quote from: Albion on Monday 19 April 2010, 09:22
Quote from: Albion on Sunday 18 April 2010, 11:02
An A minor symphony (commissioned by the the Royal Philharmonic Society in 1833) is one of the supposed 'lost' Potter symphonies. No date is given for the recording but the Boyd Neel Orchestra was renamed the Philomusica of London in 1948. I'll contact the Archive and the present conductor of the Philomusica and see what they make of it!
Further to the 'A minor' Symphony: pending a reply from the Sound Archive at the British Library, I had another trawl through the online catalogue. By following another circuitous route I discovered that the performance was broadcast on BBC Radio 3 on 19th February 1976 as part of a programme which also contained Elgar's 'Sursum Corda' and Ethel Smyth's Concerto for Violin and Horn. The present conductor of the Philomusica is currently stranded in Italy, but has promised to get in touch when he gets back to the UK!
Alas, I've just received the following email reply from the British Library:
Thank you for your enquiry. Sorry to have raised your hopes, but this is a cataloguing error on our part. The recording is of a Symphony in G minor, recorded in 1975 and broadcast on Radio 3 in 1976.
I will ensure that our catalogue is amended.
Best wishes,
Rod Hamilton
Reference SpecialistWell, it was certainly worth a try!
Well done. It is important to correct these errors. Some years ago the Library of Congress was listing a 3rd Piano Concerto by Eduard Schutt. When I queried this it turned out to be a complete mistake. The item was actually a piano suite!
To begin the New Year, here are six of Potter's nine extant symphonies:
http://www.mediafire.com/?c8gw844rt7c1s (http://www.mediafire.com/?c8gw844rt7c1s)
[No.1] G minor (1819, revised 1824/6) - referred to as No.1
[No.2] B flat major (1821, revised 1839) - referred to as No.2
[No.3] C minor (1826) - alternatively No.6
[No.4] F major (1826) - alternatively No.7
[No.5] E flat major (1828, revised 1846) - alternatively No.8
[No.6] G minor (1832) - alternatively No.10
[No.7] D major (1833) - alternatively No.11
[No.8] C minor (1834) - alternatively No. 12
[No.9] D major (1834) - alternatively No.14 or 15
What a splendid gift. Thanks hugely for this.
I was looking for something to listen to this afternoon whilst the darts was on.
Thal
I've just added two more files: the Overture to 'The Tempest' (1837) and the alternative slow movement (1846) for the Symphony in E flat.
Albion,
Thank you so much for this. A very happy new year to you and your nearest and dearest.
Quote from: Jonathan on Saturday 01 January 2011, 16:55
A very happy new year to you and your nearest and dearest.
Messrs Bantock, Brian, Cowen, Foulds, Holbrooke, Korngold, Langgaard, Potter, Schreker and Sullivan thank you most cordially for your warm wishes and return the same to you. ;)
Thanks, Albion. A real treasure trove. thanks so much.
Thank you Albion for this wonderful gift.
I had been plowing through the Potter dissertation and had just hit the section on the music when you posted. I must say, the ability to hear a selection of potters work that spans a substantial his creative life is quite the revelation.
Where I to have been Limited to the Classico recording of the F major symphony that was all that I was able to find, I would have said that Potter was more late classical composer a la Wilm than a romantic. Hearing his later works for me confirms his status as a early romantic composer.
Thank you again for this.
I'm really glad that these wonderful symphonies have found a wider audience! The performances are:
Symphony in C minor (1826) - Ulster Orchestra/ Jerzy Maksymiuk
Symphony in F (1826) - Ulster Orchestra/ Hilary Davan Wetton
Symphony in E flat (1828) - Milton Keynes Chamber Orchestra/ Hilary Davan Wetton
Symphony in G minor (1832) - Milton Keynes Chamber Orchestra/ Hilary Davan Wetton
Symphony in C minor (1834) - Ulster Orchestra/ Jerzy Maksymiuk
Symphony in D (1834) - Ulster Orchestra/ Hilary Davan Wetton
Overture The Tempest (1837) - Ulster Orchestra/ Roy Goodman
Unfortunately my transcripts of the Ulster Orchestra in the E flat and G minor symphonies (both conducted by Davan Wetton) have not survived the years!
Hello Albion,
When I tried to download a movement from one of Potter's symphonies from the address you quoted, my Bit Defender software told me I had been attacked by a virus but had not been infected. I also got a red warning sign from MacAffee Site Adviser indicating that the web site in question was decidedly dodgy! :o
Quote from: John H White on Monday 03 January 2011, 13:50
Hello Albion,
When I tried to download a movement from one of Potter's symphonies from the address you quoted, my Bit Defender software told me I had been attacked by a virus but had not been infected. I also got a red warning sign from MacAffee Site Adviser indicating that the web site in question was decidedly dodgy! :o
Hi John, I've never had any problems at all using mediafire - to test out your point I just downloaded some of my own files from the Potter folder without a hitch. Is your software hyper-sensitive? This issue is alluded to elsewhere on the net, eg. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101002222454AAZavA6 (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101002222454AAZavA6)
Hope you don't mind,I downloaded them too! Potter is a composer I have heard of & read about but never actually heard,until now. I remember reading the original review of the Unicorn release in Gramophone. I must admit,I didn't buy it at the time,but my tastes have broadened out since then.
I had no trouble with Media Fire,although I use Microsoft Security Essentials & some anti Spyware programs, which,so far,give me no trouble & seem to pick up any dodgy downloads. I did however get infected by a strange virus of some kind,or trojan,(I can't remember exactly what it was now)a few months ago which kept playing a piece of music over & over again. It was a song from Boughton's 'Immortal Hour',and strangely enough I had visited the Boughton website earlier in the evening,to try and find out what was happening to the recording of 'The Queen of Cornwall',(which HMV are currently selling at £10.99!). I discovered the infection at around 12.30 am,of all times. At first I thought they were playing it as background music on the radio station interview I was listening to. Unusual choice & very imaginative choice of music I thought,(for Radio London),then it carried on into the news bulletin.......
Thank you so much,by the way Albion,for enabling me to hear 'The Tigers' again,after all these years. I was beginning to wonder if I would ever hear it again. A wonderful recording & cast. Brian had a wildly surrealistic sense of humour. One of my all time favourites.
Albion,
Firstly, to add my own thanks to you for making this wonderful music available (I do already have the two commercial recordings noted and that was a wonderful introduction to Potter's music).
Secondly, I had no trouble downloading from your Mediafire site (I too have McAfee installed) so I guess John has some local issues (and/or I missed the warning?!)
Thirdly, do you have any information on the movements of the D major symphony of 1834?
Lastly, do you or Alan, Gareth or one of the other 'Cognescenti' know of any extant recordings of his PCs or any likely plans to produce them?
Best wishes for 2011 to you and everyone else who makes this such a wonderful sight.
Richard Moss
PS Alan, might it be possible/desirable to have a section where links to 'free' recordings available from the web (via members of this forum or otherwise posted by them) are collected?
In my short time as a fan of this sight I've come across the VC and CC for Bortkiewicz, Syms for Potter, PC for Ricardo Castro and a few other delightful bits and bobs and could quite easily have missed them (and have probably missed quite a few others too).
Quote from: Pengelli on Monday 03 January 2011, 14:26
Hope you don't mind,I downloaded them too!
Of course not - that's what they're there for! You might be interested in the Cyril Scott recordings I've posted under
British music broadcasts.
Quote from: Richard Moss on Monday 03 January 2011, 14:32
Thirdly, do you have any information on the movements of the D major symphony of 1834?
Lastly, do you or Alan, Gareth or one of the other 'Cognescenti' know of any extant recordings of his PCs or any likely plans to produce them?
Click
Show Extra Details on the left-hand menu of the files folder - I've given the tempo indications for each movement.
There is a possibility than one or more of the piano concerti might make it into Hyperion's Romantic Piano Concerto series.
Albion,
Thanks for the quick reply. Track/Movement details now found (as you'd indicated). Hopefully RPC will deliver the goods on Potter's PCs in the not too distant future.
Many thanks
Richard
PS Just realised in my ignorance I'd typed 'sight' instead of 'site' - I'm not really that ignorant, just a tendency with increasing age to go onto 'auto pilot!!)
Thank You Albion & a happy new year,to you. I notice you didn't say, 'everyone except Pengelli!'
I am unfamiliar with the Samuel Wesley work,but know of most of the other items. I have the 'Rose of Sharon' on cassette. It really DOES deserve a recording. As to 'Prometheus Unbound',I'm suprised that this hasn't been recorded yet. Unfortunately, I missed Scott's 'Alchemist' when it was broadcast,but managed to capture the Holbrooke 'Bronwen' excerpts,luckily. The other work by Scott is new to me, but I know of it. Last time I checked it out the 'Bronwen' cassette it still worked. I must transfer it to cd while I can!
Quote from: Pengelli on Monday 03 January 2011, 16:09
Thank You Albion & a happy new year,to you. I notice you didn't say, 'everyone except Pengelli!'
I am unfamiliar with the Samuel Wesley work,but know of most of the other items. I have the 'Rose of Sharon' on cassette. It really DOES deserve a recording. As to 'Prometheus Unbound',I'm suprised that this hasn't been recorded yet.
... whose Prometheus Unbound - Wesley's? Can't find any other reference to it in this thread or nearby ones... ... ok, I need to try a search, should have tried that first, I assume you don't mean the lost Brian obviously :) ... backinamin. Oh. Parry's. Commercially recorded. Gotcha.
QuoteHopefully RPC will deliver the goods on Potter's PCs in the not too distant future.
If anyone knows the whereabouts of the scores of Potter's PCs I'd be grateful if they'd share the information.
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 03 January 2011, 16:57
If anyone knows the whereabouts of the scores of Potter's PCs I'd be grateful if they'd share the information.
Hopefully they still exist. How much evidence do we have for them? I gather from Lindeman's "The concerto: a research and information guide" (http://books.google.com/books?id=mEMJoc9-cy0C&pg=PG424) that MacFarren in an 1884 article on Potter mentions them in passing with no music examples etc.; Lindeman lists 3 concertos (and several other concertante works) by key and date (D minor, 1832; E-flat major, 1833; E major, 1835); is MacFarren our "ultimate" authority for that much information, and do we have another source for even that information? Do 2-piano reductions exist (so that it's only full scores that are lacking, not the works themselves?) I become curious now though I haven't heard much Potter yet- I'm planning to head over to that link soon to hear more, though.)
They are here old chap. No's 170-172
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/manuscripts/HITS0001.ASP?VPath=arevhtml/68895.htm&Search=RPS+MS.+170&Highlight=F
(http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/manuscripts/HITS0001.ASP?VPath=arevhtml/68895.htm&Search=RPS+MS.+170&Highlight=F)
So there is no duplication of effort here, I have already ordered a copy of the RPS MS 170, being the Concerto No.2 in D minor.
In addition, there is a Ricercate on a favourite French Theme (manuscript at RAM) and a Duo Concertante Op.14 (Published score BL) which makes a total of 5 works for piano and orchestra. I have both of these, but only the Ricercate is digitalised.
I pity anyone who is going to try to typeset these.
Thal
Also in 1832 Sterndale Bennett, a Potter student, decides to compose, at age 16, his first piano concerto (in D minor, op.2) - makes for confusing searching. (At least, this according to an 1892 account.) Thanks for turning that link up!
I have downloaded the Potter symphonies & bought a s/h copy of the Unicorn-Kanchana cd. Thanks again Albion. Wonderful!
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 03 January 2011, 16:57
If anyone knows the whereabouts of the scores of Potter's PCs I'd be grateful if they'd share the information.
Most of the significant manuscripts (symphonies, concerti, overtures) are listed at the beginning of this thread.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Monday 03 January 2011, 16:48
... whose Prometheus Unbound - Wesley's? Can't find any other reference to it in this thread or nearby ones... ... ok, I need to try a search, should have tried that first, I assume you don't mean the lost Brian obviously :) ... backinamin. Oh. Parry's. Commercially recorded. Gotcha.
Parry's
Prometheus Unbound has not been commercially recorded - unfortunately!
Right- was parsing "recorded" as "commercially recorded" - I don't always get these things...
Anyone mentioned the Potter string quartet the RAM library has in manuscript?
Quote from: eschiss1 on Monday 03 January 2011, 18:46
Anyone mentioned the Potter string quartet the RAM library has in manuscript?
There was a Radio 3 broadcast of Potter's G major quartet (1837) played by the Fairfield Quartet (2/3/1989). I used to have it, but unfortunately it was the victim of a destructive tape-player many years ago! :(
Quote from: Albion on Monday 03 January 2011, 18:53
There was a Radio 3 broadcast of Potter's G major quartet (1837) played by the Fairfield Quartet (2/3/1989). I used to have it, but unfortunately it was the victim of a destructive tape-player many years ago! :(
That's the one, I think- RAM has a photocopy and a microfilm of the manuscript score (dated Oct.1837) and parts (the latter just microfilm) according to their library catalog.
Correct me if I'm wrong,but isn't Parry's 'Prometheus Unbound' regarded as being of some historic significance in relation to the so called 'English musical renaissance'?
Quote from: Pengelli on Monday 03 January 2011, 19:27
Correct me if I'm wrong,but isn't Parry's 'Prometheus Unbound' regarded as being of some historic significance in relation to the so called 'English musical renaissance'?
Some writers have indeed taken the first performance of
Prometheus Unbound at the 1880 Gloucester Festival as heralding the 'dawn of a new era', also known as the English Musical Renaissance.
To choose this date (or indeed any date) is a purely arbitrary exercise: it not only fails to account for composers as significant as Samuel Wesley, Cipriani Potter, William Sterndale Bennett and Arthur Sullivan but also refuses to acknowledge the fact that Parry's cantata was not a great success at its premiere and thereafter largely sank without trace! Undoubtedly the 1880s saw a huge upswing in terms of productivity from composers including Sullivan, Mackenzie, Parry, Cowen, Stanford, Corder and Goring Thomas but the idea of a single 'big bang' is quite misleading.
Did 'Prometheus Unbound' deserve to sink,(largely), without a trace,though? (I haven't had time to absorb the music yet).
I do rather like your cosmic analogy of a 'big bang' in British music. For a land without music there was certainly a heck of allot going on.
QuoteThey are here old chap. No's 170-172
Thanks. I will try to have a look at them next time I'm in town. A pity they were never printed - even the piano part - but good to know they exist. What's your opinion, Thalberg, on the quality of what you've seen?
I will see if i can link a page.
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a94/Thalbergmad/001_1-001.jpg)
One of the better ones I have seen.
Thal
Many Thanks, Albion, for your re-assuring post. The fact that I got warnings both from my own anti-virus software and from MacAffee Site Adviser at the same time really did get me worried. I gather, from that other forum that you directed me to, that MacAffee tends to be a bit over zealous at times.
By the way, I too taped some Potter symphonies etc. off the BBC Radio 3 broadcasts some years back, but I still haven't got round to working out how to convert them to Wav or MP3 files.
If you already have them as audio files on computer, you just need iTunes or similar software - if they're still on tapes you need other hardware and software (depends on your setup)- not something I know much about.
I have uploaded a recording of the Radio 3 broadcast of Potter's String Quartet in G here: http://www.mediafire.com/?9tb4dkl6pjtv6 (http://www.mediafire.com/?9tb4dkl6pjtv6)
I don't know the performers or the movement titles, I'm afraid.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Tuesday 04 January 2011, 07:49
I have uploaded a recording of the Radio 3 broadcast of Potter's String Quartet in G here: http://www.mediafire.com/?9tb4dkl6pjtv6 (http://www.mediafire.com/?9tb4dkl6pjtv6)
I don't know the performers or the movement titles, I'm afraid.
Great - thanks, Mark! ;D
The Quartet dates from 1837 and the performers are the Fairfield Quartet (Radio 3 broadcast on 2/3/1989). The last movement utilises an extremely catchy melody from the G minor Symphony (1832).
Here are some portraits and a sculpture of the great man himself:
(http://apollo.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/php5/media.php?irn=3562)(http://apollo.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/php5/media.php?irn=4047)
(http://apollo.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/php5/media.php?irn=3707)(http://apollo.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/php5/media.php?irn=3323)
Why the long face?
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Tuesday 04 January 2011, 09:47
Why the long face?
He's probably fed up of waiting to be acknowledged as the first truly significant British symphonist! ;D
I wouldn't call Potter great myself, but he was a very fine composer and badly needs re-assessment. 'Significant'? - definitely. Great? No.
He has a majestic nose.
Thal
QuoteOne of the better ones I have seen.
Yes - well, it's a nice opening. Thanks.
Quote from: thalbergmad on Tuesday 04 January 2011, 12:19
He has a majestic nose.
Thal
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Thursday 06 January 2011, 12:56
QuoteOne of the better ones I have seen.
Yes - well, it's a nice opening. Thanks.
It took me a little while to work out exactly what was being complimented!
Yes,because you cant really see his nostrils.
Greetings to all. This very generous upload by Albion has forced me out of lurker-dom, where I have followed your conversations for about a year and a half. The posts have been for the most part very informative, and I have followed several suggestions for purchase.
Welcome Balapoel! Lurk no more.
Received my s/h Unicorn Kanchana Cipriani Potter cd today. Cd & booklet are fine,but the case was all broken hinges & the back falls off. Still it's a rare release & it's the music that's important & it was a reasonable price,so I'm pretty happy. (Cases can be easily replaced,although replacing double jewel cases is a pain!)
As to the music. It's wonderful,these symphonies really move,in fact I've heard allot of Haydn that's more boring. In fact there's no doubt in my mind now that Britain had a musical tradition worth listening to,not only long before Elgar,but Parry,Stanford & Mackenzie as well. As everyone on this forum allready knows!
I also downloaded all the Potter symphonies from your 'folder',Albion. Thanks! It's very hard to understand why more Potter hasn't or isn't being recorded. Come on Chandos,Cpo,somebody..............
And come on to you, Pengelli! Which particular Haydn symphony were you referring to when you claimed it was boring? Must be one that I've missed out on!
Peter
Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Thursday 13 January 2011, 14:21
And come on to you, Pengelli! Which particular Haydn symphony were you referring to when you claimed it was boring? Must be one that I've missed out on!
Peter
Try #89 for an example of a Haydn snoozefest!
Quote from: JimL on Thursday 13 January 2011, 15:43
Try #89 for an example of a Haydn snoozefest!
As I recall, HC Robbins Landon in a book on the Haydn symphonies just about placed that among the most disappointing... (and he was not uniformly praising of the whole series, finding relative plateaus in the 50s-60s range - Il Distratto maybe excepted - though Haydn's operas, which Landon held in higher regard than many do I think and which occupied much more of Haydn's time when those works were being composed, may have helped account for that. He placed the end of that particular period, though around the time of the composition of the (original, orchestral) version of the 7 Last Words. (The most commonly encountered, string quartet version is probably an arrangement by unknown hands. My own favorite is the late and least-often-heard choral version- an unsung masterpiece by a sung composer indeed!- but that really diverges from topic...)
We're off-topic here, gentlemen. Let's not get into an argument about Haydn!
Apologies for this,Alan. I was going a bit o.t.t about the Haydn comparison,anyway. I think it was my excitement at discovering a 'new' composer & getting hold of a 'rare-ish' s/h cd,with a very nice painting on the cover,incidentally! As to Haydn,I will have another go at them later. He is a bit unsung compared to Mozart,say. Perhaps another thread? But maybe,not....
Incidentally,are the performances on the Unicorn cd the ones your folder,(Albion?).
Ahem,'in your folder'?!
Quote from: Pengelli on Thursday 13 January 2011, 17:57
Incidentally,are the performances on the Unicorn cd the ones your folder,(Albion?).
Yes, the Symphonies in E flat (1828) and G minor (1832) in the folder are from the long-deleted Unicorn-Kanchana CD, as my off-air recordings of these (with Davan Wetton conducting the Ulster Orchestra) had not survived.
I will transfer these to a cd thingummy as soon as I am able to. Thanks!
Listening again to some of the Cipriani Potter broadcasts alongside the really excellent performances of the complete Ries symphonies on CPO under Howard Griffiths, I've been struck again by similarities between the two composers and also by just how wonderful it would be to have an integral cycle of Potter's symphonies played, perhaps, by an orchestra of the size of the Zurich Chamber Orchestra. Does anyone have the ear of Howard Griffiths or folk over at CPO?
???
Or some excellent conductor. I like the idea of Dausgaard or Järvi or Noseda if they could be convinced to take an interest :) And I agree it would be a wonderful idea!
at least I see that the manuscripts of quite a few of his symphonies etc. are at the British Library (this may not be a permanent link (http://www.british-library.uk/catalogues/manuscripts/HITS0001.ASP?VPath=arevhtml/68895.htm&Search=RPS%20MS.%201&Highlight=T)) - relatively good news, I think, for his music, though republishing in new editions has been I hope in progress (Garland Publishing in 1984 has been helpful here I see.)
Autograph scores of all nine symphonies are at the BL, but there have been no further publications:
Quote from: Albion on Tuesday 13 April 2010, 17:58Autograph manuscripts and printed editions:
Most of the manuscript full scores are now held by the British Library. Six were deposited there as part of the Royal Philharmonic Society Archive:
G minor (1819/26) - RPS MS 159; B flat (1821) - RPS MS 160; G minor (1832) - RPS MS 161; D major (1833) - RPS MS 162; C minor (1834) - RPS MS 163; D major (1834) - RPS MS 164.
The autograph scores of the remaining three symphonies, in C minor (1826), F major (1826) and E flat major (1828) are contained in a single volume - Ms. Add. 31783.
Also included in the Royal Philharmonic Society collection at the British Library are three piano concertos in D minor, E flat major and E major (RPS MSS 170-172) and four overtures - the Overture in E minor (1815 and 1848 versions), Antony and Cleopatra, Cymbeline and The Tempest (RPS MSS 165-169).
The Royal Academy of Music Library holds the following manuscript full scores: the 1839 revision of the Symphony in B flat (MS 259), two copies of the 1846 revision of the Symphony in E flat major (MSS 191/1154) and the 1830 cantata Medora e Corrado (MS 1152).
The 1832 G minor Symphony was published in full score as volume 77 of 'Musica Britannica' in 2001, whilst the Overture to Antony and Cleopatra was included in 'The Overture in England' (Garland Publishing, 1984). Except for Potter's own piano duet arrangements of the G minor (1832) and D major (1834) symphonies, nothing else has been published.
:)
and even the most recent recording (I know of) of one of his symphonies is on a label that seems to have come and gone (Bostock's of no.7, F major on Classico). Well, the future is another thing.
Thanks so much for the sound file upload of a year ago! Up 'til now Cipriani Potter only sort of vaguely brought to mind Harry Potter. Now I regret my unwitting ignorance and low-browed idiocy, and vow to further investigate and promote the unsung C. P. forthwith.
This is a great site, and I wish I could visit more often. It's like having a constant stream of birthday presents, many of which are things I'd never have thought to ask for, but delight in having them once received and sampled.
Quote from: kitmills on Sunday 30 October 2011, 05:42
Up 'til now Cipriani Potter only sort of vaguely brought to mind Harry Potter. Now I regret my unwitting ignorance and low-browed idiocy,
Perhaps they are related: Cipriani was a magician of sounds, wasn't he? ;) ;D
I think it's becoming clear that the renaissance started gradually, maybe in the 1820s and 30s, with the rise of Potter, MacFarren (who seems to be making a comeback), Sterndale Bennett, Balfe and Wallace, and also with events like the founding of the Philharmonic Society and the RAM, and even the creation of the first musical knight, Sir Henry Rowley Bishop, in 1842. Sullivan then represented the next phase and highlighted how much people hoped for an 'English Beethoven', while Parry, Stanford et al. brought British music up-to-date with the continent.
I have scanned and uploaded my copy of the piano duet arrangement of Potter's Symphony in D (1834) to IMSLP.
The last of his nine extant symphonies, it is a wonderfully inventive score as can be heard in the 1995 broadcast recording.
:)
After reading so many positive comments on Potter's music I found myself very lucky to find a copy of the CD with the Symphonies 8 in E flat major and 10 in G minor at a reasonable price in France.
I like the opening Maestoso of the E flat symphony in particular. In the 2nd movement of the G minor symphony features a special but humble role for a solo violin and solo cello. In short, to my ears these symphonies are closer to Haydn than to Schumann. In a certain way they remind me of Ries. Not groundbreaking, no early romantic fire, no Sturm und Drang, but elegant and a pleasant listening experience.
The tempo indication for the finale I want is for the one that has the first movement marked Allegro con fuoco. I believe it's the 1826 work.
The finale of the 1826 Symphony in C minor is Allegro (4/4) - Presto (2/4), 275 bars.
:)
With thanks. I'm also wondering about the E-flat Symphony (#5 or 8). I'm not entirely sure about the order of the movements. Is the first movement the one with a Maestoso introduction or the finale? Also, is the Scherzo the 2nd or 3rd movement?
Symphony in E flat (1828) -
1. Maestoso (4/4) - Allegro non tanto (3/4), 380 bars
2. Andante con moto ma sostenuto (2/4), 151 bars
3. Scherzo: Allegro vivace (3/4), 171 bars
4. Finale: Allegro vivace (split common time), 450 bars
:)
Muchas gracias senor! ;D
Here also.
I know some of these works have been published in facsimile or even new typeset scores by Julian Rushton for Stainer & Bell, and for others (and perhaps parts also, one can hope- scores are one thing, parts make things much easier for that hoped-for eventual performing ensemble- well, one _can_ hope. And having heard Potter's symphonies, I do so hope; more music on the list of "who cares who influenced him or what 'style' describes this- the music is just too enjoyable, deservedly self-confident, inventive, ... for me not to want to hear it again and more of it :) , and under other performers for comparison...- I should go hear the Classico CD of the F major, for instance. Anyway. Slightly off-course...)
anyhow, is there any news whether they'll be republishing / typesetting more of his music (or have done) (or only intend to do one or two symphonies)? The former would be a good thing considering the difficulty of finding older scores and parts.
(Hrm. I wonder if the Potter symphony in G minor published ca. 1835 as "Symphony in G minor ... Arranged for Flute, 2 Violins, 2 Tenors, Violoncello and Double Bass. [Parts.]." is the same that has now been published in full unarranged score in 2001 in that Rushton edition? Hrm. Probably I suppose though it -could- be our symphony "no.1" instead...)
Quote from: eschiss1 on Monday 25 June 2012, 12:30is there any news whether they'll be republishing / typesetting more of his music (or have done) (or only intend to do one or two symphonies)? The former would be a good thing considering the difficulty of finding older scores and parts.
Unfortunately, the answer is 'no'. Only the Symphony in G minor (1832) and the overture
Antony and Cleopatra (1835) have been published in full score and there doesn't appear to have been any interest in putting further Potter scores into print. However, there clearly
must be orchestral parts available that are at least legible/ playable from for those works which have been (relatively) recently revived:
Symphony [No.3] in C minor (1826) - BBC studio recording
Symphony [No.4] in F major (1826) - BBC studio recording/ Classico recording
Symphony [No.5] in E flat major (1828, revised with replacement slow movement 1846) - BBC studio recording/ Unicorn-Kanchana recording
Symphony [No.6] in G minor (1832) - BBC studio recording/ Unicorn-Kanchana recording
Symphony [No.8] in C minor (1834) - BBC studio recording
Symphony [No.9] in D major (1834) - BBC studio recording
The Tempest, overture (1837) - BBC studio recording
Quote from: eschiss1 on Monday 25 June 2012, 12:30(Hrm. I wonder if the Potter symphony in G minor published ca. 1835 as "Symphony in G minor ... Arranged for Flute, 2 Violins, 2 Tenors, Violoncello and Double Bass. [Parts.]." is the same that has now been published in full unarranged score in 2001 in that Rushton edition? Hrm. Probably I suppose though it -could- be our symphony "no.1" instead...)
Yes, it's the 1832 work.
Would anybody be able to confirm for me who the peformers are in the revised second movement of the E flat symphony? This information may very well be posted somewhere in this topic already, but I haven't been smart enough to find it (an all too common failing with me, I'm afraid).
Brian
Sorry - for some reason I omitted this from the catalogue. It's the Ulster Orchestra, conducted by Hilary Davan Wetton.
:)
Many thanks, Albion!
I have just noticed on clicmusique.com that Hyperion's next RPC - volume 72 - is Potter's 2nd and 4th Concertos and the Bravura variations on a theme of Rossini. Didn't expect that.
No release date offered. Link: http://www.clicmusique.com/cipriani-potter-concertos-pour-piano-shelley-p-98303.html.
I'm not finding this recording on Hyperion's own site under "forthcoming", so it appears that clicmusique.com has a scoop. Or maybe accidentally jumped the gun.
Please this new thread:
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,6443.msg68123.html#new (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,6443.msg68123.html#new)