I am intrigued by the music of German composer Ferdinand Thieriot (1838-1919), a pupil of Rheinberger and member of the Brahms circle. Wikipedia says this about him:
Ferdinand Thieriot (April 7, 1838, Hamburg – August 4, 1919, Hamburg) was a German composer of Romantic music and cellist.
He was a pupil of Eduard Marxsen in Altona and belonged to the circle of musicians around Johannes Brahms, who was also a pupil of Marxsen. Later, Thieriot was a pupil of Josef Rheinberger in Munich. A close, friendly relationship connected him with his teachers all his life. Thieriot was married to a publisher's daughter (Ernst Berens, Hamburg), Else Berens. The marriage remained childless. He worked as a music teacher and musical director in Hamburg, Ansbach, Leipzig (1867) and Glogau (1868-1870). Later Brahms recommended Thieriot for the position of "Artistic Director" of the Styrian Music Association in Graz (1870-1885). The composer always received high praise in concert reviews: "... and met with a warm and friendly reception by the audience and deservedly so. ... Excellent work, clarity and good taste regarding the instrumentation; employment of dignified motives full of character ... Enrichment of the concert repertoire." From March 1902 onwards, Thieriot had his home again in Hamburg where he lived until his death. (Performances of his works in concerts at the Hamburg Philharmonic and Singing Academy as well as in Leipzig where he obtained a post in 1897 at the Directorium of the Bach Society in Leipzig).
Thieriot's chamber music constitutes a great part of his total output and is judged to be among his finest compositions. He is known to have composed 4 piano trios: Opp.14, 45, 47 & 90, 13 string quartets, only two of which have been published, 2 Octets (Op.78 for 4 violins, 2 violas and 2 cellos and Op.62 for 2 violins, viola, cello, bass, clarinet, horn, and bassoon) a quartet for flute and string trio Op.84, a quintet for piano and winds Op.80, a quintet for piano and string quartet Op.20 and several instrumental sonatas. In addition to the above, several unpublished compositions remain in manuscript awaiting publication.
Wilhelm Altmann, one of the most influential and perceptive chamber music critics of all time, writing of Thieriot's chamber music, states:
"Thieriot's chamber music is without exception noble and pure. He writes with perfect command of form and expression."
German Wikipedia has this list of his compositions:
Operas:
,,Renata" Oper in 4 Akten Text nach einer Dichtung von Julius Wolff Leipzig 1898
,,Die Hochländer" (Finale des 1. Aktes)
,,Armor und Daura" tragische Episode aus dem Schottischen auf Ossian, Dichtung von Louise Otto-Peters (solo SATB SATB Orch) Glogau, 1869
Cantatas:
,,La régine Avrillouse" (Die Maikönigin) altfranzösischer Frühlingstanzreigen aus Frau Aventiure von Joseph Victor von Scheffel op. 74, Leipzig, 1901
,,Der Ilsenstein" Ballade von Mosenthal
,,Die Macht des Gesanges" (SATB S Orch) Gedicht von Friedrich Schiller
,,Am Traunsee" (SSA solo Bar Vl Vl Va Vc Kb)
,,Kantate der Klage und des Trostes" op.50 für Chor, Solostimmen und Orchester, Leipzig, 1885 Public Domain-Noten in der IMSLP
,,Gott sei uns gnädig" Kantate nach Bibelworten (solo SATB SATB Orch) 1915
,,Der 57. [Psalm]" für (SATB Orch Org ad lib)
,,Der 67. Psalm" (Solo SATB, Chor und Orchester), München, 1864
,,Requiem nach Friedrich Hebbel" (SATB S Orch) op.52, Graz/Leipzig, 1873/1891 Public Domain-Noten in der IMSLP
,,Stabat Mater" (solo SATB SATB Orch)
,,Te Deum laudamus" (solo SATB SATB Orch
Orchestral Works:
Sinfonie D-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 2 F-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 3 C-Dur
Sinfonie cis-Moll, UA am 18. Mai 1908 in Hamburg
Sinfonie B-Dur
Sinfonie D-Dur
Sinfonie E-Dur
Sinfonie Es-Dur, Leipzig, 1907
Sinfonie f-Moll, Graz, 1872
Sinfonie g-Moll, Hamburg ,1918
Sinfonietta E-Dur, op.55, Graz, 1876
Ouvertüre "Dionysia"
Ouvertüre "Loch Lomond", op.13, Leipzig, 1868
Ouvertüre zu Friedrich Schillers Turandot op. 43
Divertimento G-Dur
Elegischer Marsch a-Moll, 1897
Festmarsch C-Dur, 1883
Menuett F-Dur
Orchestersuite d-Moll
Orchestersuite E-Dur
,,Leben und Sterben des vergnügten Schulmeisterlein Wuz" op.72, Text: Jean Paul Leipzig, 1900
Concertos:
Violinkonzert op.68
Violinkonzert Nr.1 A-Dur, op. 68, Leipzig 1897
Violinkonzert Nr.2 h-Moll, 1912
Klavierkonzert für 2 Klaviere und Orchester op.77
Klavierkonzert Nr. 1 B-Dur, Graz, 1878
Klavierkonzert Nr. 2 c-Moll
Konzert für Orgel und Streicher F-Dur, Hamburg, 1910
Konzert für Orgel, Streicher, Hörner und Pauken, D-Dur
Konzert für Violine und Violoncello g-Moll, op.96, Leipzig, 1914
Konzert für Violine und Bratsche op.92, 1910
Tripelkonzert D-Dur für 3 Violinen, op.88 UA am 12. April 1910 in Hamburg
Konzert Nr.2 für Violoncello, G-Dur, 1915
Konzert Nr.3 für Violoncello, A-Dur
Konzert Nr.4 für Violoncello D-Dur,1917
Konzertstück D-Dur für Violoncello
Suite für Violoncello G-Dur
Zwei Konzertstücke für Violoncello, op.76, Nr. 2 Caprice, Leipzig, 1903
Works for String Orchestra:
Serenade op.44,
Serenade F-Dur op.44, Leipzig
"Bei Giorno" von Benito Fumagalli (Bearbeitung)
Walzer op.39 von Johannes Brahms (Bearbeitung)
Tempo di Valse F-Dur
Zwei Walzer (D & A) op.54, 1895
Chamber Music with Piano:
Serenade B-Dur (Fl Ob Clar Hn Fg Kla)
Klavierquintett D-Dur op.20,
Klavierquartett Nr.2 op.30, Leipzig, 1875
Klavierquartett g-Moll, Hamburg, 1905
Klavierquartett F-Dur, Hamburg, 1913
Klaviertrio F-Dur, Hamburg 1856
Klaviertrio D-Dur op.1, Hamburg, 1858
Zwei leichte Trios zum Gebrauch beim Unterricht op.3 (G-Dur & C-Dur), Hannover, 1859
Zwei leichte Trios op.12 (D-Dur & a-Moll), Hamburg, 1867
Klaviertrio f-Moll op.14, Leipzig, 1868 (J. Brahms gewidmet)
Klaviertrio A-Dur, Graz, 1873
Klaviertrio B-Dur op.45, Leipzig, 1890
Klaviertrio E-Dur, op.47, Leipzig, 1890
Klaviertrio Es-Dur, Leipzig, 1894
Klavierquintett a-Moll (Pn, Ob, Cl, Cor, Fag) op.80, Leipzig 1903 / Reprint Warngau 2005
Klaviertrio e-Moll op.90, Leipzig, 1909
Klaviertrio D-Dur, Hamburg, 1916
Works for Solo Instrument with Piano/Organ:
Thema und Var. op.29
Divertimento all´ongarese op.10 für Violoncello und Klavier
2 Adagios für Violoncello und Orgel op.41
Abendstimmung für Violine und Orgel (Klavier)
Larghetto G-Dur für Violine und Orgel
Larghetto h-Moll für Viola und Orgel
Largo d-Moll für Violine und Klavier
Serenade G-Dur für Violoncello und Klavier
Sonate Es-Dur für Horn (Violoncello) und Pianoforte, 1915
Sonate B-Dur für Violoncello und Klavier op.15, Leipzig, 1860
Sonate im leichtern Style op. 56
Sonate C-Dur für Violoncello und Klavier
Sonate D-Dur für Violoncello und Klavier
Sonate A-Dur op.58 für Violine und Klavier
Sonate Nr.3 G-Dur für Violine und Klavier, Hamburg, 1910
Suite B-Dur für Violine und Klavier
Thema und Variationen G-Dur für Violoncello und Klavier
Thema und Variationen op.29 für 2 Violoncelli und Klavier
Chamber Works without Piano:
Oktett B-Dur op. 62 (Klar Fg Hn Vl 1 2 Va Vc Kb) Leipzig, 1887
Oktett d-Moll
Choral für 3 Violoncelli Ist Gott mein Schutz und treuer Hirt
Suite D-Dur für 3 Violoncelli
Erstes Streichtrio D-Dur, Winterthur 2004
Zweites Streichtrio a-Moll, Winterthur 2003
Streichquartett A-Dur op.83, Leipzig, 1905
Streichquartett Nr.2 C-Dur op.93, 1911
Streichquartett E-Dur
Streichquartett G-Dur, op.84, Winterthur, 2005
Streichquartett As-Dur, Winterthur 2005
Streichquartett e-Moll
Streichquartett a-Moll
Streichquartett B-Dur
Streichquartett c-Moll, Winterthur 2004
Streichquartett D-Dur, 1913
Streichquartett h-Moll, Winterthur, 2003
Streichquartett g-Moll, Winterthur, 2003
Streich-Quintett G-Dur, 1914
Streich-Sextett D-Dur
Streich-Oktett C-Dur op.78
Flöten-Quartett G-Dur op.84 (Fl Vl Va Vc), Leipzig, 1905
Flöten-Quintett F-Dur (Fl Vl 1 2 Va Vc)
Klarinetten-Quintett Es-Dur (Klar Vl 1 2 Va Vc) Leipzig, 1897
Works for Piano Solo:
Klavieretüde op.22.2
Natur und Lebensbilder op.17 & op.18
Sechs Phantasiestücke op.22
Durch die Puszta op.23
Drei Impromptus op.35, Lübeck, 1881
Zwei Klavierstücke, op.36 Intermezzo-Humoreske
Drei Klavierstücke op.37 [Toccata]-Quasi Gavotte-Intermezzo
Zwei Stücke für 2 Klaviere op.38
Drei Stücke für [Pianoforte] leicht op.39
Drei Sonatinen für Klavier (C, F, G) op.71, Leipzig, 1898
Zwei Stücke militärischen Charakters op.82?, Leipzig, 1904
Albumblatt Fis-Dur
Andantino quasi allegretto B-Dur
Bagattelle A-Dur
Tanz-Caprice D-Dur
Caprice Es-Dur
Einweihungsklänge zu einer Festlichkeit C-Dur
Fughetta scherzanda D-Dur
Fughetta scherzanda G-Dur
Gavotte G-Dur
Gigue h-Moll
Humoreske E-Dur
Lied ohne Worte E-Dur
Molto vivae f-Moll
Narratio A-Dur
Presto a-Moll
Romanze E-Dur
Toccatina F-Dur
Traum E-Dur
Variationen über ein eigenes Thema Es-Dur
Variationen E-Dur op.65
Vergangenheit d-Moll
Walzer a-Moll
Walzer As-Dur
Walzer Des-Dur
Zwei Fantasiestücke c-Moll & D-Dur, Leipzig, 1867
Humoreske E-Dur
Klage gis-Moll
Piano 4-Hands:
Sechs Klavierstücke zu vier Händen op.34 Heft I, Heft II
Sechs Klavierstücke zu vier Händen op.46 im Umfang von 5 Tönen
Zwei Klavierstücke op.40
Allegro non troppo G-Dur
Andante tranquillo a-Moll
Cavallerie B-Dur Legende für Klavier
Doppelfuge d-Moll, Graz, 1871
Humoreske G-Dur
In den Gefilden Terpsichore´s Reigen-Cyclus für Pianoforte Hamburg, 1918
Klavierstück C-Dur
Klaviersonate f-Moll
Dritte Tanzsuite für Klavier
Stück in Des-Dur
Stück in f-Moll
Zur Karnevalszeit 4-händige Silhouetten
Zwei Tanzweisen G-Dur für Klavier
Vom Donaustrande op.64
Thema und Variationen für 2 Klaviere, op.66
Works for Organ:
Festhymne B-Dur op. 85/1
Passacaglia (in freier Form) op.85/2
St. Petri Präludium Es-Dur op.85/3
Orgelfuge Es-Dur op.85/4 fugae regulariter suspectus
Idylle E-Dur,op.85/5
Choralbearbeitung Gelobet seist du Jesu Christ op.85/6
Choralvariationen Wer nur den lieben Gott lässt walten op.85/7
Choral In allen meinen Thaten op.85/8
Choral Works with Piano or Organ:
,,Andacht" Worte aus Psalter und Harfe von C. J. Ph. Spitta (SSA, Klav)
,,Du sprichst: Ich bin reich" Geistlicher Gesang (SATB Org)
,,Hand in Hand wie dieses Paar"(SATB Klav)
,,Hochzeitlied" für Chor (SATB SA Klav) nach einem Gedicht von Goethe
,,Hochzeits-Musik" für Chor, Solo und Pianoforte, Text von Louise Otto-Peters
,,Luther" (TTBB Org/Trp Trp Pos Pos) op.94 zur Einweihung der neuen Lutherkirche in Worms 31. Oktober 1912
,,Christnacht" op.70 (SATB S B Org) Leipzig, 1899
,,Lebenslied" nach einem Text von Johann Gottfried von Herder (SSA, Klav)
,,Liebchen auf der Wiese", italienisches Volkslied (SSAA Klav)
"Rose, Meer und Sonne sind ein Bild der Liebsten mein" Text aus dem Liederfrühling von Friedrich Rückert
,,Aufforderung zum Tanze" op.48 (SSATB Klav4)
,,Die Macht des Glaubens" Kantate (SATB Bar Org)
,,Abschied vom Meer" op.81 (SSA Bar Klav) Gedicht von Alphonse de Lamartine Leipzig, 1904
,,Neuweinlied" Text von O. J. Bierbaum (BB Klav)
,,Schneeglöckchen´s Tod" (SATB Klav)
,,Schottischer Schlachtgesang" Text nach Walther Scott (TB Klav)
,,Über der Heide hallet mein Schritt" (SSA Klav)
,,Vogels-Flug" Text Friedrich Hebbel (SA Klav)
,,Ausgleich" (Von einem reichen Rosengrab) Text M. Stona (AB Klav)
,,Liebesgruß" (Es grüßen dich die Blümelein )Text von Stine Andresen (AB Klav)
,,Abend am Meer" (Verklungen ist des Tages Schall) Text von Stine Andresen (SAB Klav)
,,Hinter den Tannen" (Sonnenschein auf grünem Rasen) Gedicht von Theodor Storm (SAB Klav)
,,Der Frühling kommt" (Freu dich, Geliebte, der Winter entweicht) Gedicht von G. Falke (SATB Klav)
,,Die Spinnerin" (SATB Klav)
,,Das Märchen vom Schnee" op.63 (SATB solo ST Sprecher Klav)
,,Meine Lust ist Leben" op.91 Gedicht von Peter Rosegger (SATB soloA Klav)
Choral Works A Capella:
,,Vier Motetten" op.79SATB
Sehet, sehet, so stirbt der Gerechte
Ein Gebet Dich, (Herr, erkenn´ich im Sternendom)
Letztes Gebet (Ich habe mich dich hingegeben) Gedicht von Gottfried Kinkel
Siehe, ich stehe vor der Tür und klopfe an, Leipzig, 1903
,,Ave Maria" (SATB)
,,Gott rüstet den Gerechten mit Kraft" (SSAATTBB)
,,Bereitet dem Herrn den Weg" (SSATB)
,,Stütze dich auf mich" (SATB)
,,Zwei humoristische Gesänge" op.69 (TTBB) Leipzig, 1897
,,Frisch mein Lied" op.69a (TTBB) Text von J. Mosen Leipzig, 1903
,,Zwei Augen" op.82 (TTBB) Text von A. Blumauer 1908
,,Abendfeier" (Wie ist der Abend so traulich) Text aus Psalter und Harfe von Spitta (SATB)
,,Ergebung" (Ich nehme was du mir bestimmst) Text von Spitta (SATB)
,,Es zieht den hellen Strom hinunter" Gedicht von Ludwig Frankl (SATB)
,,Frühlingswunder" (Sieh, der Winter ist vergangen) Text von Spitta (SATB)
,,Herbstlied" (Schön im goldnen Ährenkranz hat der Sommer uns geblüht) Text von Friedrich Rückert (SATB)
,,Im Sommer" (Im Garten blühn die Rosen) Gedicht von Stine Andresen (SATB)
,,Kuckusruf" (Drei Mägdlein gingen im grünen Wald) Gedicht von Gustav Duill (SATB)
,,Lebensschluß" (Den nur nenne den Glücklichen) Gedicht von Jacob Balde (SATB)
,,Neujahrslied" Text Emil Gött (SATB)
,,Die Vöglein im Frühling" (Vöglein singen, Vöglein springen wieder froh) Text von Weickert (SSB bzw. SSA)
,,Vier Volkslieder" (SATB):
Mit Fuß und Augen (wenn alle Brünnlein fließen)
Aus der Farm (Soll ich dich denn nimmer sehen)
Nachtlied (Die Erde ruht, der Himmel wacht) Text von Aug. Mahlmann
Im Wald (Im Wald, im Wald ist Luft und Fried) frz. Volkslied, Text von Béranger
,,Brennende Liebe" (In meinem Garten lachet manch Blümelein) Text von Mosen (SSA)
,,Drei Stücke für Frauenchor" (SSA)
Schelmliedchen (Am Teiche flüstern Schilf und Rohr)
Was Liebchen alles ist (Heller Vogelsang tönt im grünen Wald )
Vor den Türen (Ich habe geklopft) Gedicht von Fr. Rückert (SATB)
,,Wie lieblich sind die Boten" Gedicht von Fr. Rückert (SATB)
,,Sieben Stücke für gemischten Chor a cappella (SATB):
Der Wind, Text: W. Osterwald Noten
Die Diebin, Text: Lessing
Paulinzelle
Der Heini von Steyer Text aus der Aventiure von Joseph Victor von Scheffel
Wendisches Volkslied
Liebeslied (portugiesisch)
plus others...
Not a bad life's work, eh? At the moment only a few of his chamber works have been recorded. They reveal a composer of great skill, working within the received conservative tradition. Does anyone else have any experience of his music or extra knowledge of him?
Ye Gods, the man makes Raff look like a work-shy lazybones! Seriously, everything which I have heard of Thieriot's (and that isn''t much admittedly) is a delight. Somewhere online - I can't find the link just now - there are electronic realisations of his Loch Lomond Overture and a movement from one of the Piano Concertos. Not great sonically, but they do give you an idea...
Well, he did live to be 81 - a good twenty years longer than Raff. But what a catalogue! If even a fraction of it is as good as what we have already, then we have a major undiscovered composer...
*adds Cello concerto no.1 in F major, op.97 (pub.1915 by Rieter-Biedermann) to that list... it seems to have dropped out somehow. Date from HMB.* (There's a shorter list at http://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Ferdinand_Thieriot (http://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Ferdinand_Thieriot) that contains at least that one item that escaped their attention, though merging the two lists' contents, in different languages per site, is not a bad idea.)
"Streichquartett G-Dur, op.84, Winterthur, 2005" (Amadeus-Verlag)? Worldcat listings for that item (a posthumous publication of a work left in manuscript) don't give it any opus number... bit confused there... there -is- an Amadeus republication of the flute quartet op.84 , republished by Amadeus-Verlag in 2003, but as a flute quartet. The G major string quartet published in 2005 is a newly published work from manuscript w/o opus number. (Rather like the 1-and-change quartets by Thuille they published a decade or so before, I think.)
Thanks, Eric.
I am currently listening to Thieriot's mellifluous Octet in B flat, Op.62 (on Arte Nova, coupled with the Piano & Winds Quintet, Op.80). This is marvellous, expertly crafted music, but never bland - and not without darker moments which intrude every now and again. If you like Gernsheim, for example, you'll love Thieriot too!
Here's a description at Edition Silvertrust:
Octet in B Flat, Op.62
For 2 Violins, Viola, Cello, Bass, Clarinet, Horn & Bassoon
Although not published until 1893, the Octet was composed some twenty years before. It dates from Thieriot's time in Graz and is in the grand tradition of the Schubert Octet and of Beethoven's Op.20 Septet. It would not be an exaggeration to say that these two works served as the "god parents" for Thieriot's Octet, which shares much in common with both, including the same instrumentation as the Schubert Octet. The opening movement, Poco adagio--Allegro non troppo with its short, show introduction leading to a lyrical and lilting main theme is reminiscent of the Op.20 Beethoven Septet. The second movement, entitled Intermezzo, un poco vivace, begins in the spirit of a Schumann scherzo, but the trio section with its lovely writing for the horn and clarinet again brings back echoes of Op.20. Without question, the Octet's center of gravity is its middle movement, Adagio molto mesto. It begins with a long solo for the cello, followed then by another for the clarinet. The climax is reached after the gorgeous and moody solo for the horn (our sound-bite). Next comes a Schmannesque Scherzo, Allegro vivace. It is energetic, syncopated and full of forward motion. The finale, Allegro moderato, harks back to Schubert and is filled with lovely melodies and rich ideas.
This is truly a masterpiece from the mid-romantic period. Perfect in every way, the writing for all of the instruments shows the hand of a real master. The Octet belongs on the concert stage and ought to be given serious consideration by professional groups. Despite its superb quality, it does not require a virtuoso technique from any of the players and is sure to delight amateur groups as well.
Here's a link to the sleevenotes accompanying the release on Toccata of Thieriot's String Sextet in D, Piano Quintet in D, Op.20 and Theme and Variations for two cellos and piano, Op.29...
http://www.toccataclassics.com/cms/uploads/CyberLabel/documents/doctype/liner_notes/TOCC0080-notes-en.pdf (http://www.toccataclassics.com/cms/uploads/CyberLabel/documents/doctype/liner_notes/TOCC0080-notes-en.pdf)
It is truly heartening to see such sustained and fervent advocacy for an 'unsung' and (given the comprehensive work-list) largely hitherto-unrecorded composer - long may this pioneering spirit continue.
The advantage that we have with Thieriot is that there is a fair amount of information about the quality of the man and his music; in other words, we have a bit of a head start.
With Martin Anderson of Toccata evidently convinced of his merits, we can look forward to further volumes in the future...
Here's MusicWeb's review of the first Toccata CD...
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/June10/Thieriot_TOCC0080.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/June10/Thieriot_TOCC0080.htm)
What is the current knowledge regarding the survival of the operatic, orchestral, concertante and choral works?
???
The full score of opus 13 Loch Lomond is at IMSLP, I think. Albis-Verlag published the full score of the B-flat major piano concerto in 2003. Full Score of his Te Deum was published by Haale, Renaissance-Musikverlag in 2001 and is at Munich Library, likewise I think his organ concerto in F; (a? I need to check that list) Stabat Mater preceded from the same? publisher (different location) in 1999 (Sibley has this also).
Thanks again, Eric.
Happily- hopefully the manuscripts are in a library somewhere, or have been tracked down, for the other works (as is easier to find out with some composers than others...)
Oh. "Not least because the archives containing his manuscripts were taken to Leningrad during the Second World War"...
...the manuscripts were brought back to Hamburg in 1991, so it depends exactly what has survived. I imagine the Wiki articles are based on evidence from the archive there, but it would be good to have more information.
I have duly sent an email to the library of Hamburg University...
Fleisher has the scores of the String Octet op.78, the Octet op.62 which is recorded on the Arte Nova CD, an orchestral Sinfonietta in E op.55 and a String Serenade in F op.44. The British Library has around 30 scores, including the Loch Lomond and Turandot Overtures and many chamber works (including several String Quartets) all of which seem to been modern editions, which is a very good sign. So I'm surprised, bearing that in mind, that there aren't more performances.
I imagine that these modern editions will form the basis for the forthcoming recordings on the Toccata label.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 20 October 2011, 21:52I have duly sent an email to the library of Hamburg University...
Excellent - please let us know when the reply comes back - it's always good to establish what survives, just in case it is ever needed: a useful (though not comprehensive) source of information for collections within the UK is http://www.cecilia-uk.org/ (http://www.cecilia-uk.org/)
:)
I seem to recall seeing, either here on this forum or on the old one, a copy of the first page of the A Major Violin Concerto (#1, Op. 68).
Most of Thieriot's extant MSS are in Hamburg. However, the man who knows the whereabouts of most of his music is Walter Zielke of Albis. I have the Full Score and parts of "Loch Lomond".
JimL- re first page of the opus 68 - maybe http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Heinrich_Thieriot (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Heinrich_Thieriot) there? (in the collection of images on the bottom right :) ) An also typeset (by the selfsame Professor-Emeritus Zielke) first page of the symphony in D major is there too (neat harmonic shift just in the first few bars...)
Hrm. Of the composers given further descriptions so far in the last day or so, this is the only one to have a concert-listing at that (incomplete, depending on contributions from the performers, etc.) site (which I mentioned but have no connection to. Just seems sort of neat. Can tell it's incomplete because of all the concerts where I live that are missing ;^) ) (Admittedly, I suppose not that many really "obscure" German Romantic composers are listed there (http://www.bachtrack.com/find-a-concert/what;all-composers/)? Eugen d'Albert (lesser-known, if of odd nationality :), to the general public)... hrm... others but not... well... hrm.) (Franz Possinger - more classical maybe...)
They've been mentioned elsewhere, but several works by Thieriot have now appeared in print, courtesy of Walter Zielke:
https://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?keyWords=thieriot&type=&pn=2 (https://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?keyWords=thieriot&type=&pn=2)
Does anyone have a view on them...?
Well, he offers sound samples of 2 movements of the 5th symphony (synthesized) to help promote his edition. I've heard the sound samples (I think I may have linked to them in an earlier thread here) and am impressed...
Also, some of the D major symphony by Thieriot can be seen at (de) Wikipedia here (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Heinrich_Thieriot) (first page of the first movement in Zielke's typeset score. Mr. Zielke may have an mp3 - the "mp3" link from the Wikipedia page goes to a no longer existing website, alas.)
I just heard a few soundsamples of the recent Naxos release of the String trios - very beautiful. While looking for other music by this composer I came across this - Has anyone else heard this - It's a realization of the 1st movement of his Piano Concerto No. 1. Nothing earth shattering but very pleasant music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtSJTPPuKE0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtSJTPPuKE0)
Thieriot's music is always civilised and well-mannered, and his 1st Piano Concerto epitomises these qualities. It is a lovely work, the first movt. material being skilfully and engagingly worked out. I have been trying to persuade Hyperion to record both concertos (the 2nd is in C minor) - perhaps they will before long. There is also a concerto for 2 pianos & orchestra, but I have not seen the score and I don't know where it is. I believe Walter Zielke knows - but he is not telling (perhaps it is in his private collection).
Gareth,
Ivo Varbanov's website says he will record Thieriot's pc 1 & 2 for Hyperion in June 2020 with the BBC Scottish SO:
https://ivo-varbanov.com/calendar/future-events/
That is excellent news. It shows that Simon Perry listens to suggestions if people bother to make them and do some work for the company beforehand, like finding the score locations, etc.
What a bright note on which to start the day. Given the size of his output and the attractiveness of the few works which have already been recorded, Thieriot's comparative neglect by recording companies has always puzzled me.
Wahay! Lovely jubbly! Now for some of the symphonies, or VCs, or anything else really...
Thieriot's 5-movement, ca.36-minute Symphony in D (undated, but well before 1900) can be heard in a decent computer realisation at YouTube:
1. (Allegro vivace) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jayG9eryHTo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jayG9eryHTo) (9:26)
2. (Scherzo: Presto) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Ru2-imEvY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Ru2-imEvY) (5:19)
3. (Free Variations: Adagio) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbHthdG3mzk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbHthdG3mzk) (9:49)
4. (Intermezzo: Tempo di Menuett) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEBUQ0P23Mo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEBUQ0P23Mo) (4:11)
5. (Finale: Allegro con fuoco) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjqH9uzDb6U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjqH9uzDb6U) (7:21)
Could any kind person upload this fabulous symphony to our downloads board, please?
Leave it with me....
The Symphony in mp3 format is available in our Downloads board here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,7309.0.html). I see, according to the introduction to the score (available here (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lulu.com%2Fshop%2Fferdinand-thieriot%2Fsymphonie-d-dur-hrsg-walter-zielke%2Fpaperback%2Fproduct-22034302.html&event=video_description&v=jayG9eryHTo&redir_token=yWuFQw89MfD_H8uIvhnWvms4Xe98MTU2MzI2MDc5NkAxNTYzMTc0Mzk2)), that Thieriot wrote nine symphonies, of which this would be the seventh or eighth:
1. Symphony in F minor (Graz, 1872)
2. Symphony in F major (date unknown)
3. Symphony in C major (premiere Hanover 1902)
4. Symphony in E flat major (premiere Leipzig 1907)
5. Symphony in C sharp minor (Hamburg, 1908)
6. Symphony in E major (only piano reduction, date unknown)
7 or 8. Symphony in B flat major (date unknown)
7 or 8. Symphony in D major (date unknown)
9. Symphony in G minor (1918)
If this one is anything to go by, they seem well worth investigating. It's opening struck me as highly reminiscent of Schumann at his most upbeat.
What a treat! Thanks, Mark.
Perhaps we could persuade CPO to embark on a cycle!
I have alerted Martin Anderson...
Anyway, what do friends make of the symphony?
Taking into account that this is an electronic realisation (albeit a pretty good one), my impression is that this is an attractive work in a mainstream 19th century romantic idiom, if rather lacking in individuality. The first, third and fifth movements are all strong pieces, thematically memorable and each of a well-judged length. The opening and slow movements in particular seem rather fine and, although it's the weakest of the three, the finale still avoids tail-chasing and vacuous celebration. I thought the scherzo rather generic and suffering from a trivial-sounding trio, but I've heard worse and it doesn't outstay its (muted) welcome. My major quibble is with the fourth, Intermezzo, movement. This bucolic dance seems quite out of place, interrupting the Symphony's momentum. It belongs in a Suite, or some such lighter work, and the Symphony wouldn't suffer at all from its absence. On this showing, I'd certainly look forward enthusiastically to a cycle of Thieriot symphony recordings.
Interesting, isn't it, what one's reaction is to an additional intermezzo-like movement? Mine was rather different, mainly, I think, because the work is pretty compact so that the Intermezzo functions as a sort-of counterweight to the Scherzo, with the slow movement as the work's centrepiece. What distinguishes the symphony is surely the memorability of the writing throughout; I have found the first movement material in particular going round in my head all day.
Yes, the first movement is an excellent piece and the opening material in particular is very arresting. As I said earlier, it could be the start of a Schumann symphony.
Schumann 3 would, of course, be a precedent for Thieriot's Symphony in D - although the balance of the five movements is different.
Indeed, and it's the start of the "Rhenish" which the confident opening of Thieriot's D major most resembles, but I'd be wary of taking the comparison too far.
YouTube also has a 'realisation' of the opening movement of Thieriot's PC1 (fp 1878):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtSJTPPuKE0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtSJTPPuKE0)
Rather fine, I thought...
Oh, thank you Mark! Most appreciated. I really need to stop being so busy, and sit and listen to some music. ;D
I am resuscitating this thread because Thieriot's two piano concertos were originally slated to be recorded for the Hyperion RPC series next month. One hopes that will still take place, but fears...
Whatever the case, I discovered that IMSLP has a synthetic "realization" of the Second Piano Concerto (1912) as well. You can listen to it here (https://imslp.org/wiki/Piano_Concerto_No.2_(Thieriot%2C_Ferdinand)).
Just the first movement, I think? But yes.
Hi all,
Today I discovered that recently a number of new digital realizations of works by Ferdinand Thieriot were placed on the Youtube channel of Albis Music (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQTRTgF27FO7_snZY6rnVqg/videos) (which/who until recently went by the name "Harmo Nium"). I've only gone through the 5th symphony sofar. There is a double concerto for violin, viola and orchestra as well, plus the second movement of Thieriot's First Piano Concerto. All thoroughly delicious stuff.
Symphony No.5 is (unsurprisingly) conservative-sounding for 1908, but stronger, I think, than the D major Symphony we have already heard. This is made of much sterner stuff. It'd make a grand impression, I'm sure - and it doesn't really sound like anyone else! Not bad for a 70 year-old composer!
I would certainly typify it as more "muscular" than No. 7 (the D major, to avoid understandable confusion). However, I was rather smitten by the latter's more light-hearted nature, to be honest. If there's one critical note I might be allowed to make regarding No. 5, it's that it has something of an anti-finale problem - the finale is very strong in my view, and from those brooding opening chords to the apotheosis it knows how to maintain great tension. But it'll take a few more listens to get to grip with the piece.
A bit of information I was unaware of until I read Gero Ehlert's biographical essay (downloadable from a link in the YouTube description) was that Thieriot's Nachlass was absconded to the Soviet Union in 1946 by the Red Army, only to return in 1991. That at least partly explains the degree of neglect his music has endured.
Edit (because we probably don't say this often enough): Great work by Walter Zielke in making this music accessible. Having recently dipped my toe in the craft of digitizing scores by hand, my already-high respect for people who do this on a regular basis has multiplied.
The D major Symphony apparently comes from 'well before 1900', which I think one can hear quite clearly in comparison with No.5 in C#minor. This is part of the commentary at YouTube regarding the D major work:
The impressively fresh and classically arranged five-movement symphony in D major is one of the two Thieriot´schen symphonies without numbering. In addition to his Sinfonietta in E major, op. 55, which was published in print, the composer wrote nine other previously unpublished symphonies. For this Symphony in D major, a complete set of parts exists in the estate. On closer examination of the same, it turned out beyond doubt that all these voices had never been used before. The voice material does not contain any traces of practical use such as strokes, fingerings or other entries. Some voices even stuck together slightly from the fresh ink. The 4th and 5th parts of the string section have been copied by another hand. These copies are written on music paper of the Leipzig music publisher Alfred Dörffel, which could indicate a production in Leipzig (1880-1902?). All other voices carry Thieriot´s clean handwriting along with his sweeping signature Ferd. Thieriot. From this it can be concluded that there has never been a performance of this work with orchestra. The editor has also edited other manuscripts by Thieriot. Based on this, the dating of this symphony can definitely be classified well before 1900. (emphasis added).
Given that Thieriot apparently wrote 9 symphonies and that only two (including the D major discussed above) are unnumbered, is there an authoritative listing available anywhere?
Apart from the entry on German Wikipedia I know of no such listing. As Thieriot's estate is held by the University Library in Hamburg, perhaps they have (access to) a listing.
According to an article on the website of Swiss radio from September 2017 there are (were?) plans for the Symphony Orchestra Biel Solothurn under conductor Kaspar Zehnder to record a series of CDs with the music of Radecke (released in 2016 and discussed here on UC), Thieriot, Rheinberger and Volkmann.
I emailed Walter Zielke and received a reply with this listing which is almost identical with that posted earlier by Mark T:
Thieriot wrote 9 symphonies:
Symphony No.1 in F minor (Graz, 1872)
Symphony No.2 in F major (without opus, undated)
Symphony No.3 in C major (fp Hamburg, 1902)
Symphony No.4 in E flat major(fp Leipzig, 1907)
Symphony No.5 in C sharp minor (fp Hamburg, 1908, pub. AlbisMusic 2014)
Symphony No.6 in E major (without opus, undated, only piano reduction exists)
Symphony (No.7 or 8?) in B flat major (without opus, undated)
Symphony (No.7 or 8?) in D major (pub. AlbisMusic 2015) (info added by A.Howe)
Symphony No.9 in G minor (without opus, 1918).
Mr Zielke says that the original scores are probably still in various Russian archives.
QuoteAs Thieriot's estate is held by the University Library in Hamburg, perhaps they have (access to) a listing.
We have been over this ground before (was it on the old forum, Mark? - I can't remember). I did some quite extensive research on Thieriot at one time. Anyway, here is the link to the HANS Katalog at Hamburg University: https://spezialkataloge.sub.uni-hamburg.de/en/hans-handschriftenkatalog.html (https://spezialkataloge.sub.uni-hamburg.de/en/hans-handschriftenkatalog.html) Put "Thieriot, Ferdinand" into the box and hit "Suche starten".
Incidentally, I should add that I have never come across a composition by Thieriot that is not elegant, tuneful and immensely civilised. He does not scale great heights nor plumb vast depths - his music is accomplished, amiable and well worth listening to - IMHO.
OK. These are the symphonies by Thieriot listed in the Hamburg catalogue:
Symphony in F major (4 movts) – Partitur (133pp)
Symphony in F major (4 movts) – Parts (33)
Symphony in F major (4 movts) – 4 hand piano arrangement (102pp)
(4th) Symphony in E flat major (4 movts) – Parts (32)
(9th) Symphony in G minor (4 movts) – Partitur (132pp)
(9th) Symphony in G minor (4 movts) – Parts (23)
(9th) Symphony in G minor (4 movts) – 4 hand piano arrangement (58pp)
Symphony in D major; Version 1 (4 movts) – Partitur (148pp)
Symphony in D major; Version 1 (4 movts) – solo piano arrangement
Symphony in D major – Sketches
Symphony in D major; Version 2 (5 movts) – Partitur (120pp)
Symphony in D major; Version 2 (5 movts) – Parts (36)
Symphony in F minor (3 movts) – Partitur (121pp)
Symphony in F minor (3 movts) – solo piano arrangement (23pp) [3rd movt incomplete]
(5th) Symphony in C sharp minor (4 movts) – Partitur (146pp)
(5th) Symphony in C sharp minor (4 movts) – 4 hand piano arrangement (92pp)
Symphony in C major (4 movts) – Partitur (102pp)
Symphony in B flat major (4 movts) – Partitur (112pp)
(6th) Symphony in E major (4 movts) – 4 hand piano arrangement (60pp)
[Please note the catalogue lists the 6th symphony as being in E major NOT E flat major.]
There is also this:-
Symphonietta in E major, Op. 55 (in 3 movts) – Partitur (70pp)
QuotePlease note the catalogue lists the 6th symphony as being in E major NOT E flat major
Thanks for the correction, Gareth. It was an error on my part as I was going back and forth from the German info to my English translation. I have duly amended the list.
QuoteHe does not scale great heights nor plumb vast depths
I think Symphony No.5 gets closer to achieving this than one might otherwise imagine.
In fact Symphony No.5 rather disproves the notion that Thieriot couldn't/didn't write meatier stuff than the chamber works we already know. Just try the stormy passage from 6:00 in the first movement - this is material to rival the equivalent passages from Brahms 1! The finale is also an incredibly powerful creation, with an inexorable drive that is often truly gripping. And all this within a 36-minute time-span. I take this to be a major contribution to the classical-romantic symphonic repertoire. Download it and play it as loud as you dare!
Having just listened to it all the way through, I fully agree, Alan. It's a very strong work. Oh to have it recorded by a decent orchestra. I wonder if CPO might be persuaded - Thieriot ought to be right up their street.
I'm so glad you feel the same way, Gareth. Cpo (or Toccata) ought to be interested.
It's often worthwhile to re-assess music that made an impression some while ago but which one hasn't listened to since. And so I've returned to Thieriot's 5th - and I have absolutely no doubt that this is one of the most potent unrecorded symphonies that we know of. Dare we hope for a label to take it up sometime soon?
I thought you didn't even care for Brahms 1.. but I think I take your meaning.
It was Alan Krueck who described the first movement of Brahms 1 as lumbering along. I agree with him. The equivalent movement in Thieriot 5 is more advanced harmonically, as one might expect from its date, and every bit as powerful, if not more so.
You can see though why it comes across as "Thieriot 5 is better than this lumbering thing" which in and of, is rather in the damning with faint praise trade...
I think it is better. What I learnt from Alan Krueck was to reserve to oneself the right to critique even the most exalted of masterpieces.
Here's another: Bruckner couldn't write a symphonic allegro for toffee.
Anyway, I invite friends to listen to the opening movements of Brahms 1 and Thieriot 5 and decide for themselves...
Do we have any updates reg. the status of the Piano concertos that were supposed to be recorded for Hyperion. I just came across a realization of the 2nd movement of Piano Concerto No. 1 in B-flat. Simply beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJqPhUhckjo
Here's the first movement (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtSJTPPuKE0). Still waiting for the third...
Links to scores of Thieriot's music (inter alia):
1. AlbisMusic
Chamber Music: https://www.albismusic.de/notenshop/kammermusik/ (4 scores)
Concertos: https://www.albismusic.de/notenshop/solokonzerte/ (8 scores)
Orchestral: https://www.albismusic.de/notenshop/orchestermusik/ (4 scores)
2. Amadeus (Winterthur)
Full listing (27 scores, mostly chamber music):
https://www.amadeusmusic.ch/itemlist.php?qsa=%7C-1%7C%7C0%7C0%7C0%7CThieriot&logical_operator=AND (page 1)
https://www.amadeusmusic.ch/itemlist.php?qsa=%7C-1%7C%7C0%7C0%7C15%7CThieriot&logical_operator=AND (page 2)
This is the up-to-date catalogue of Thieriot's works from Wikipedia:
Operas:
,,Renata" Oper in 4 Akten Text nach einer Dichtung von Julius Wolff Leipzig 1898
,,Die Hochländer" (Finale des 1. Aktes)
,,Armor und Daura" tragische Episode aus dem Schottischen auf Ossian, Dichtung von Louise
Otto-Peters (solo SATB SATB Orch) Glogau, 1869
Cantatas:
,,La régine Avrillouse" (Die Maikönigin) altfranzösischer Frühlingstanzreigen aus Frau
Aventiure von Joseph Victor von Scheffel op. 74, Leipzig, 1901
,,Der Ilsenstein" Ballade von Mosenthal
,,Die Macht des Gesanges" (SATB S Orch) Gedicht von Friedrich Schiller
,,Am Traunsee" (SSA solo Bar Vl Vl Va Vc Kb)
,,Kantate der Klage und des Trostes" op. 50 für Chor, Solostimmen und Orchester, Leipzig,
1885 Public Domain-Noten in der IMSLP
,,Gott sei uns gnädig" Kantate nach Bibelworten (solo SATB SATB Orch) 1915
,,Der 57. [Psalm]" für (SATB Orch Org ad lib)
,,Der 67. Psalm" (Solo SATB, Chor und Orchester), München, 1864
,,Requiem nach Friedrich Hebbel" (SATB S Orch) op. 52, Graz/Leipzig, 1873/1891 Public
Domain-Noten in der IMSLP
,,Stabat mater" (solo SATB SATB Orch)
,,Te Deum laudamus" (solo SATB SATB Orch)
Orchestral works:
Sinfonie Nr. 2 F-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 3 C-Dur
Sinfonie cis-Moll, UA am 18. Mai 1908 in Hamburg
Sinfonie B-Dur
Sinfonie D-Dur mp3 (Memento vom 27. September 2007 im Internet Archive)
Sinfonie E-Dur
Sinfonie Es-Dur, Leipzig, 1907
Sinfonie f-Moll, Graz, 1872
Sinfonie g-Moll, Hamburg, 1918
Sinfonietta E-Dur, op. 55, Graz, 1876
Ouvertüre "Dionysia"
Ouvertüre "Loch Lomond", op. 13, Leipzig, 1868
Ouvertüre zu Friedrich Schillers Turandot op. 43
Divertimento G-Dur
Festmarsch C-Dur, 1883
Menuett F-Dur
Orchestersuite d-Moll
Orchestersuite E-Dur
,,Leben und Sterben des vergnügten Schulmeisterlein Wuz" op. 72, Text: Jean Paul Leipzig,
1900
Concertos with orchestra:
Violinkonzert Nr. 1 A-Dur, op. 68, Leipzig 1897
Violinkonzert Nr. 2 h-Moll, 1912
Klavierkonzert für 2 Klaviere und Orchester op. 77
Klavierkonzert Nr. 1 B-Dur, Graz, 1878
Klavierkonzert Nr. 2 c-Moll
Konzert für Orgel und Streicher F-Dur, Hamburg, 1910
Konzert für Orgel, Streicher, Hörner und Pauken, D-Dur
Konzert für Violine und Violoncello g-Moll, op. 96, Leipzig, 1914
Konzert für Violine und Bratsche op. 92, 1910
Tripelkonzert D-Dur für 3 Violinen, op. 88 UA am 12. April 1910 in Hamburg
Konzert Nr. 2 für Violoncello, G-Dur, 1915
Konzert Nr. 3 für Violoncello, A-Dur
Konzert Nr. 4 für Violoncello D-Dur, 1917
Konzertstück D-Dur für Violoncello
Suite für Violoncello G-Dur
Zwei Konzertstücke für Violoncello, op. 76, Nr. 2 Caprice, Leipzig, 1903
Works for String Orchestra:
Serenade F-Dur op. 44, Leipzig
"Bei Giorno" von Benito Fumagalli (Bearbeitung)
Walzer op. 39 von Johannes Brahms (Bearbeitung) Noten
Tempo di Valse F-Dur
Zwei Walzer (D & A) op. 54, 1895
Chamber music with piano:
Serenade B-Dur (Fl Ob Clar Hn Fg Kla)
Klavierquintett D-Dur op. 20,
Klavierquartett Nr. 2 op. 30, Leipzig, 1875
Klavierquartett g-Moll, Hamburg, 1905
Klavierquartett F-Dur, Hamburg, 1913
Klaviertrio F-Dur, Hamburg 1856
Klaviertrio D-Dur op. 1, Hamburg, 1858
Zwei leichte Trios zum Gebrauch beim Unterricht op. 3 (G-Dur & C-Dur), Hannover, 1859
Zwei leichte Trios op. 12 (D-Dur & a-Moll), Hamburg, 1867
Klaviertrio f-Moll op. 14, Leipzig, 1868 (J. Brahms gewidmet)
Klaviertrio A-Dur, Graz, 1873
Klaviertrio B-Dur op. 45, Leipzig, 1890
Klaviertrio E-Dur, op. 47, Leipzig, 1890
Klaviertrio Es-Dur, Leipzig, 1894
Klavierquintett a-Moll (Pn, Ob, Cl, Cor, Fag) op. 80, Leipzig 1903 / Reprint Warngau 2005
Klaviertrio e-Moll op. 90, Leipzig, 1909
Klaviertrio D-Dur, Hamburg, 1916
Works for solo instruments with piano or organ:
Divertimento all'ongarese op. 10 für Violoncello und Klavier
Elegischer Marsch (Incipit: Beim Hinscheiden J.B. geschrieben), 1897
2 Adagios für Violoncello und Orgel op. 41
Abendstimmung für Violine und Orgel (Klavier)
Larghetto G-Dur für Violine und Orgel
Larghetto h-Moll für Viola und Orgel
Largo d-Moll für Violine und Klavier
Serenade G-Dur für Violoncello und Klavier
Sonate Es-Dur für Horn (Violoncello) und Pianoforte, 1915
Sonate B-Dur für Violoncello und Klavier op. 15, Leipzig, 1860
Sonate im leichtern Style op. 56
Sonate C-Dur für Violoncello und Klavier
Sonate D-Dur für Violoncello und Klavier
Sonate A-Dur op. 58 für Violine und Klavier
Sonate Nr. 3 G-Dur für Violine und Klavier, Hamburg, 1910
Suite B-Dur für Violine und Klavier
Thema und Variationen G-Dur für Violoncello und Klavier
Thema und Variationen op. 29 für 2 Violoncelli und Klavier
Chamber music without piano:
Oktett B-Dur op. 62 (Klar Fg Hn Vl 1 2 Va Vc Kb) Leipzig, 1887
Oktett d-Moll
Choral für 3 Violoncelli Ist Gott mein Schutz und treuer Hirt
Suite D-Dur für 3 Violoncelli
Erstes Streichtrio D-Dur, Winterthur 2004
Zweites Streichtrio a-Moll, Winterthur 2003
Streichquartett A-Dur op. 83, Leipzig, 1905
Streichquartett Nr. 2 C-Dur op. 93, 1911
Streichquartett E-Dur, Winterthur 2005
Streichquartett G-Dur, Winterthur, 2005
Streichquartett As-Dur, Winterthur 2005
Streichquartett e-Moll
Streichquartett a-Moll
Streichquartett B-Dur, Winterthur 2005
Streichquartett c-Moll, Winterthur 2004
Streichquartett D-Dur, 1913
Streichquartett h-Moll, Winterthur, 2003
Streichquartett g-Moll, Winterthur, 2004
Streich-Quintett G-Dur, 1914
Streich-Sextett D-Dur
Streich-Oktett C-Dur op. 78
Flöten-Quartett G-Dur op. 84 (Fl Vl Va Vc), Leipzig, 1905
Flöten-Quintett F-Dur (Fl Vl 1 2 Va Vc)
Klarinetten-Quintett Es-Dur (Klar Vl 1 2 Va Vc) Leipzig, 1897
Piano solo:
Natur und Lebensbilder op. 17 & op. 18
Sechs Phantasiestücke op. 22
Durch die Puszta op. 23
Drei Impromptus op. 35, Lübeck, 1881
Zwei Klavierstücke, op. 36 Intermezzo-Humoreske
Drei Klavierstücke op. 37 [Toccata]-Quasi Gavotte-Intermezzo
Zwei Stücke für 2 Klaviere op. 38
Drei Stücke für [Pianoforte] leicht op. 39
Drei Sonatinen für Klavier (C, F, G) op. 71, Leipzig, 1898
Zwei Stücke militärischen Charakters op. 82?, Leipzig, 1904
Albumblatt Fis-Dur
Andantino quasi allegretto B-Dur
Bagatelle A-Dur
Tanz-Caprice D-Dur
Caprice Es-Dur
Einweihungsklänge zu einer Festlichkeit C-Dur
Fughetta scherzanda D-Dur
Fughetta scherzanda G-Dur
Gavotte G-Dur
Gigue h-Moll
Humoreske E-Dur
Lied ohne Worte E-Dur
Molto vivae f-Moll
Narratio A-Dur
Presto a-Moll
Romanze E-Dur
Toccatina F-Dur
Traum E-Dur
Variationen über ein eigenes Thema Es-Dur
Variationen E-Dur op. 65
Vergangenheit d-Moll
Walzer a-Moll
Walzer As-Dur
Walzer Des-Dur
Zwei Fantasiestücke c-Moll & D-Dur, Leipzig, 1867
Humoreske E-Dur
Klage gis-Moll
Piano 4-hands:
Sechs Klavierstücke zu vier Händen op. 34 Heft I, Heft II
Sechs Klavierstücke zu vier Händen op. 46 im Umfang von 5 Tönen
Zwei Klavierstücke op. 40
Allegro non troppo G-Dur
Andante tranquillo a-Moll
Cavallerie B-Dur Legende für Klavier
Doppelfuge d-Moll, Graz, 1871
Humoreske G-Dur
In den Gefilden Terpsichore's Reigen-Cyclus für Pianoforte Hamburg, 1918
Klavierstück C-Dur
Klaviersonate f-Moll
Dritte Tanzsuite für Klavier
Stück in Des-Dur
Stück in f-Moll
Zur Karnevalszeit 4-händige Silhouetten
Zwei Tanzweisen G-Dur für Klavier
Vom Donaustrande op. 64
Thema und Variationen für 2 Klaviere, op. 66
Organ works:
Festhymne B-Dur op. 85/1
Passacaglia (in freier Form) op. 85/2
St. Petri Präludium Es-Dur
Orgelfuge Es-Dur fugae regulariter suspectus
Idylle E-Dur,op
Choralbearbeitung Gelobet seist du Jesu Christ
Choralvariationen Wer nur den lieben Gott lässt walten
Choral In allen meinen Thaten
Orgelsonate (verschollen)
Choral works:
,,Andacht" Worte aus Psalter und Harfe von C. J. Ph. Spitta (SSA, Klav)
,,Du sprichst: Ich bin reich" Geistlicher Gesang (SATB Org)
,,Hand in Hand wie dieses Paar"(SATB Klav)
,,Hochzeitlied" für Chor (SATB SA Klav) nach einem Gedicht von Goethe
,,Hochzeits-Musik" für Chor, Solo und Pianoforte, Text von Louise Otto-Peters
,,Luther" (TTBB Org/Trp Trp Pos Pos) op. 94 zur Einweihung der neuen Lutherkirche in Worms
31. Oktober 1912
,,Christnacht" op. 70 (SATB S B Org) Leipzig, 1899
,,Lebenslied" nach einem Text von Johann Gottfried von Herder (SSA, Klav)
,,Liebchen auf der Wiese", italienisches Volkslied (SSAA Klav)
"Rose, Meer und Sonne sind ein Bild der Liebsten mein" Text aus dem Liederfrühling von
Friedrich Rückert
,,Aufforderung zum Tanze" op. 48 (SSATB Klav4)
,,Die Macht des Glaubens" Kantate (SATB Bar Org)
,,Abschied vom Meer" op. 81 (SSA Bar Klav) Gedicht von Alphonse de Lamartine Leipzig, 1904
,,Neuweinlied" Text von O. J. Bierbaum (BB Klav)
,,Schneeglöckchen's Tod" (SATB Klav)
,,Schottischer Schlachtgesang" Text nach Walther Scott (TB Klav)
,,Über der Heide hallet mein Schritt" (SSA Klav)
,,Vogels-Flug" Text Friedrich Hebbel (SA Klav)
,,Ausgleich" (Von einem reichen Rosengrab) Text M. Stona (AB Klav)
,,Liebesgruß" (Es grüßen dich die Blümelein) Text von Stine Andresen (AB Klav)
,,Abend am Meer" (Verklungen ist des Tages Schall) Text von Stine Andresen (SAB Klav)
,,Hinter den Tannen" (Sonnenschein auf grünem Rasen) Gedicht von Theodor Storm (SAB Klav)
,,Der Frühling kommt" (Freu dich, Geliebte, der Winter entweicht) Gedicht von G. Falke (SATB
Klav)
,,Die Spinnerin" (SATB Klav)
,,Das Märchen vom Schnee" op. 63 (SATB solo ST Sprecher Klav)
,,Meine Lust ist Leben" op. 91 Gedicht von Peter Rosegger (SATB soloA Klav)
Choral works a capella:
Sehet, sehet, so stirbt der Gerechte
Ein Gebet Dich, (Herr, erkenn' ich im Sternendom)
Letztes Gebet (Ich habe mich dich hingegeben) Gedicht von Gottfried Kinkel
Siehe, ich stehe vor der Tür und klopfe an, Leipzig, 1903
,,Ave Maria" (SATB)
,,Gott rüstet den Gerechten mit Kraft" (SSAATTBB)
,,Bereitet dem Herrn den Weg" (SSATB)
,,Stütze dich auf mich" (SATB)
,,Zwei humoristische Gesänge" op. 69 (TTBB) Leipzig, 1897
,,Frisch mein Lied" op. 69a (TTBB) Text von J. Mosen Leipzig, 1903
,,Zwei Augen" op. 82 (TTBB) Text von A. Blumauer 1908
,,Abendfeier" (Wie ist der Abend so traulich) Text aus Psalter und Harfe von Spitta (SATB)
,,Ergebung" (Ich nehme was du mir bestimmst) Text von Spitta (SATB)
,,Es zieht den hellen Strom hinunter" Gedicht von Ludwig Frankl (SATB)
,,Frühlingswunder" (Sieh, der Winter ist vergangen) Text von Spitta (SATB)
,,Herbstlied" (Schön im goldnen Ährenkranz hat der Sommer uns geblüht) Text von Friedrich
Rückert (SATB)
,,Im Sommer" (Im Garten blühn die Rosen) Gedicht von Stine Andresen (SATB)
,,Kuckusruf" (Drei Mägdlein gingen im grünen Wald) Gedicht von Gustav Duill (SATB)
,,Lebensschluß" (Den nur nenne den Glücklichen) Gedicht von Jacob Balde (SATB)
,,Neujahrslied" Text Emil Gött (SATB)
,,Die Vöglein im Frühling" (Vöglein singen, Vöglein springen wieder froh) Text von Weickert
(SSB bzw. SSA)
,,Vier Volkslieder" (SATB):
Mit Fuß und Augen (wenn alle Brünnlein fließen)
Aus der Farm (Soll ich dich denn nimmer sehen)
Nachtlied (Die Erde ruht, der Himmel wacht) Text von Aug. Mahlmann
Im Wald (Im Wald, im Wald ist Luft und Fried) frz. Volkslied, Text von Béranger
,,Brennende Liebe" (In meinem Garten lachet manch Blümelein) Text von Mosen (SSA)
,,Drei Stücke für Frauenchor" (SSA)
Schelmliedchen (Am Teiche flüstern Schilf und Rohr)
Was Liebchen alles ist (Heller Vogelsang tönt im grünen Wald )
Vor den Türen (Ich habe geklopft) Gedicht von Fr. Rückert (SATB)
,,Wie lieblich sind die Boten" Gedicht von Fr. Rückert (SATB)
Sieben Stücke für gemischten Chor a cappella (SATB):
Der Wind, Text: W. Osterwald Noten
Die Diebin, Text: Lessing
Paulinzelle
Der Heini von Steyer Text aus der Aventiure von Joseph Victor von Scheffel
Wendisches Volkslied
Liebeslied (portugiesisch)
Songs for men's choir:
Chorlieder für Männerchor
Songs for solo voice and piano:
Sololieder mit Klavierbegleitung
I am assuming "Suite für Violoncello G-Dur" is with orchestra, not solo. :) Btw the op.85 organ works have been uploaded in typeset at IMSLP as have the published parts of, I think, both of his 2 published string quartets... (nope, just no.2. Interesting that no.1 in A is op.83- and Gernsheim's no.5 is in A, op.83... the Rieter-Biedermann 1905 parts of Thieriot's op.83 are at the (central) library @ Zürich whose library catalog doesn't give much information about them.)
QuoteI am assuming "Suite für Violoncello G-Dur" is with orchestra, not solo
You assume correctly. I'll clarify that particular category.
Good gracious! That is some list of works. I can't help but think that we are missing out on some really good and possibly great music.
We've heard a very small percentage of Thieriot's works - but enough to suggest that he's a composer at least as good as, say, Gernsheim, and in some respects superior. His Symphony in C sharp minor first performed in 1908 is a magnificent work in the classical tradition which ought to alert conductors and record labels to his stature. At least we can hear this good computer realisation of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSuKduRk_Ic
This is Mathias Keitel's 2010 book on Thieriot's estate:
https://kataloge.hh.gbv.de/DB=6/CHARSET=UTF-8/PPN?PPN=638536251
Has anybody any idea how we can get hold of a copy?
This is a thesis, isn't it? Might be tricky. I suggest contacting the library and asking if it is available, either online or in hard copy, to purchase from a publisher (might be academically restricted - i.e. you have to have a subscription to the service). Is there a German equivalent of UMI ProQuest?
The score of Thieriot's Symphony in C (fp Hamburg, 1902) has been digitised:
https://digitalisate.sub.uni-hamburg.de/recherche/detail?tx_dlf%5Bid%5D=6818&tx_dlf%5Bpage%5D=1&cHash=6fa65a850cd95f94e1320b01459a6825
As Gareth kindly informed us some while back, Hamburg University Library has full scores of all nine of Thieriot's symphonies, with the exception of the one in E major, which is in piano reduction only.
To recap:
No.1 in F minor (Graz, 1872)
No.2 in F major (undated)
No.3 in C major (fp Hamburg, 1902)
No.4 in E flat major (fp Leipzig, 1907)
No.5 in C sharp minor (fp Hamburg, 1908) - published by Albis Music
No.6 in E major (undated)
No.? in B flat major (undated)
No.? in D major (probably before 1900) - published by Albis Music
No.9 in G minor (1918)
What's interesting is how late most(?) of Thieriot's symphonies are, i.e. coming after the deaths of Brahms (1897) and Bruckner (1896). By 1900 Thieriot (1838-1919) was 62! I wonder whether there's any significance in this? Historically speaking, it's hard to think of any other composer of Thieriot's generation who might have seen himself as preserving the Austro-German symphonic tradition in a period when Mahler was taking the symphony in a new direction and Strauss had abandoned it in favour of the symphonic poem. (Gernsheim's 4th and final symphony was written in 1895.)
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Thursday 22 February 2024, 16:44This is a thesis, isn't it? Might be tricky. I suggest contacting the library...
I've sent them an email - thanks, Gareth.
Gareth, the library catalog seems to contain only Symphony No. 5 (https://katalogplus.sub.uni-hamburg.de/vufind/Search/Results?lookfor=%5C"Thieriot%2C+Ferdinand%5C"&type=Person); can you tell me where you found references to the other ones?
Try this link:
https://kalliope-verbund.info/findingaid?fa.id=DE-611-BF-88930&htmlFull=false&lang=de&fa.enum=1&q.page=7&lastparam=true
It took me quite some time to find them!
On the subject of the premiere of Thieriot's 5th Symphony in C sharp minor in Hamburg under conductor Julius Sprengel on 18th May 1908, the music critic of the Hamburger Anzeiger, Wilhelm Zinne, wrote:
[His 5th Symphony] is one of the most remarkable and captivating mood-pictures which we have had in recent times. With this C sharp minor Symphony Thieriot has now finally left behind his long cultivated modesty and from now on may be named in the same breath as Brahms and Bruckner.
I agree. I haven't heard anything composed by a composer of Thieriot's generation in the wake of Brahms and Bruckner that matches the sheer majesty of this symphony.
Note: one work that would fit in the category of symphonies written in the broad Austro-German tradition post Brahms and Bruckner by composers of their generation would be the Symphony No.1 in C major Op.140 (1907) by Reinhold Becker (1842-1924), the terrific opening movement of which our friend Reverie posted on YouTube a while back:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPsxN12I994
Napravnik was a near-contemporary too . Maybe the later symphonies of Major and Mihalovich, too.
Yes, true. But not in the Austro-German tradition. That's why the Hamburg critic cited Thieriot in the post Brahms/Bruckner period.
Of course, it'd be good to get to know those composers, but that would be in the context of the wider European symphonic tradition. What I'm interested in is what composers of the Brahms/Bruckner generation in the Austro-German tradition were writing post 1896/7 in the last 10-20 years of their lives - and whether we've missed something.
Note: Napravnik was active in Russia for most his life; Mihalovich studied in Leipzig and Munich but returned to Budapest/Hungary; Major (b.1858) is rather later and also worked in Budapest.
are we referring, since we know little about these composers' actual symphonies for the most part, to their nationality, to their preference or lack thereof for non-programmatic symphonism , or ?
Possibly better example: H Grädener's symphony no.2 (1914, age 70).
Yes: Hermann Grädener (or Graedener, 1844-1929) would be a good example. Well sleuthed, Eric! We have had his two Violin Concertos from Toccata Classics which sound rather Brahmsian, so his Symphony No.2 in C minor would be worth pursuing. IMSLP has this entry:
Symphony No.2 in C minor (published by Universal Edition in 1912. Performed by the Vienna Philharmonic 15 February 1903. See e.g. WorldCat. Only seems to be available(?) presently at the Free Library of Philadelphia, Fleisher Collection, also at ÖNB Wien.)
https://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_Hermann_Gr%C3%A4dener
I'm thinking specifically of composers of Thieriot's generation in Austria/Germany who were engaged in writing symphonies as classically conceived (generally in 4 movements, without programme). In other words, my suspicion is that Thieriot may be the best of these - indeed, he seems to have managed to forge a symphonic identity all of his own after the deaths of Brahms and Bruckner, as we can hear in his Symphony No.5 in C sharp minor.
Of a slightly different character, but definitely post-Brahmsian: Felix Woyrsch (1860-1944) wrote his last three symphonies after the age of 69.
Waitwaitwaitwaitholdit. If composers born as late as 1860 are allowed into the mix... I deliberately didn't even look at some composers as possibilities for the sin of being born in the 1850s.
Also, Gernsheim's symphonies are not all entirely non-programmatic, so out he drops, tsk. (That may explain why Klughardt didn't come up either.)
I think Woyrsch's later symphonies may incorporate elements of both the Brahms and other traditions? (or is making your 6th symphony a Sinfonia sacra just a more liturgical extension of Beethoven 9?)
Woyrsch is an interesting composer, but too late for comparison purposes here. He's really a contemporary of Mahler and Strauss. As I said, I'm after the generation of composers born around, say, 1825 to 1845, who outlived Bruckner (1824-1896) and Brahms (1833-1897) and who found new ways of renewing the classic symphonic tradition after the deaths of those two great composers. I think that's what Thieriot did in his 5th symphony without resorting to mere imitation.
Note: Klughardt's last two symphonies date from 1897.
1845 leaves poor Mr Fuchs (sym.3 also composed at age 59 in 1906) right out :)
Draeseke 4, at least, is absolutely in the tradition ... (and the slow movement, I'd argue, no more puts it out of court than Beethoven writing a characteristic (not program) symphony like his 6th- though on the whole the Comica makes me think more of a more somewhat updated Beethoven 8.)
Thanks for the reminder about Fuchs, although I wouldn't rate him as a symphonist.
Draeseke's 4th is very much a postscript to his symphonic output - and a sui generis commentary on the rising tide of modernism. I wrote about it years back in discussion with Dr Alan Krueck:
https://draeseke.org/essays/sym4howe.htm
At the moment, as far as original symphonists are concerned, I think we're left with Thieriot and, once we've heard the rest of his 1st Symphony, probably Reinhold Becker.
Reminders:
Thieriot No.5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSuKduRk_Ic&t=207s
Reinhold Becker No.1 (whole work): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ievZpsWSPow&t=647s
Should be able to put up the completed Becker later this week all being well.
Wahay!!!!
Of Thieriot's contemporaries I'd completely forgotten about Ernst Rudorff (1840-1916) whose terrific 3rd Symphony was first performed in 1911.
Thanks for this thread. I purchased a CD of Theriot's chamber works (Octet in B flat and a Quintet). Very satisfying music. I hope more of his chamber works can be issued. As for the symphonies the outlook is increasingly dim IMO because of the economics. I did like the Symphony 5.
Weren't Theriot's Piano Concertos going to be recorded for Hyperions RPC. Any update on that?
Listening to the Becker Symphony 1 I think this is the first time I have heard a work that seems to combine elements of the symphonic style of both Brahms and Bruckner. Do others agree or disagree? I like his control over the brass section. My criticism of a number of the unsungs symphonies relates either to a hesitant or rather formulaic use of the brass section. This affects their Finales particularly. The strings and woodwinds are generally handled well by them in contrast. The Becker has good integration of the 3 sections though.
Becker's style derives from mainly from Wagner, I think. This may explain your findings.
I get it that the harmony was more along Wagnerian lines. This is of course an initial impression but there was a kind of solid warmth occasionally to the orchestration that was characteristic of Brahms but more rarely of Bruckner. By solid warmth I mean a rather close integration from bass to treble of the orchestral sections. Anyway I thought it was a good effort along with the Theriot Sym 5. I wonder why Becker did not write more symphonies.
Becker was primarily a composer of songs and choral music. Please see this thread:
https://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3817.0.html
As a symphonist he was a very late starter; his biography suggests that he carried the music for his 1st Symphony around in his head for a long time before considering himself ready to begin the composition process.
I saw the old thread but missed the bio reference. So he was another Brahms! It's interesting how intimidated Austro Germanic composers were by past symphonies. I am trying to think of a similar example elsewhere in music history but can't off the top of my head. And yet composers outside of Austria and Germany were writing all kinds of symphonies without any cares.
To return to Thieriot: as far as I can tell no-one of his generation was writing symphonies (nine of them) over a comparable 46-year period (1872-1918). They're crying out for an enterprising label to take them up.
Believe me I share your wish for Theriot and some others too but I don't know what an enterprising label is in 2024, particularly for orchestral music. I am more familiar with the US but the pandemic was rather devastating for the classical music field here. Yes the few classical music organizations that are in the largest cities like New York, Chicago and LA are perhaps about back where they were in 2019 but even those have had losses in season subscriptions which is worrisome. The second-line cities like Detroit or Cleveland are starting to sink. The breakup of the Soviet Union created some openings in the 90s and 00s for cheaper orchestral recordings in Russia and Eastern Europe but those are pretty much gone for different reasons.
I would think some crowdsourcing vehicle is more likely than relying on labels which are facing a rapidly shrinking CD and download market. In the US, CDs are actually well below vinyl now in both revenue and units sold. Even more feasible IMO would be the transcription of these symphonies for well done computer playback. Given that many people now listen to MP3s on their computer or mobile device one need not worry overly much about audiophile considerations. Just my thoughts but I do share your concern.
cpo would be my first choice: they mostly release German radio recordings and there are conductors who would do a good job - such as Golo Berg, who tells us that his performance of Grimm's magnificent Symphony was recorded for release sometime soon. Toccata Classics have put out two superb CDs of Thieriot's chamber music, so they too might be interested.