Dear members,
I decided to upload a recording of orchestral works by Emilie Mayer and Friedrich Wilhelm Kücken.
I understand from interviews that at least the works by Mayer will be released by Dabringhaus und Grimm in autumn.
The files will have to be removed in time. I would appreciate a note in case I should forget about this!
Thanks for the upload. We usually remember to delete such broadcast recordings when the time comes. The symphony's movements re:
I. Adagio - Allegro con brio
II. Un poco adagio
III. Scherzo (Allegro)
IV. Finale Militair (Adagio - Allegro vivace)
I'd hoped cpo would continue the cycle, but at least someone's working on it :) And thanks!
Looking forward very much to listening to these works - thanks for the upload. I've loved all her previous works available on UC or CD and do not expect these to be any different. Like Brahms et al, melody flows out of every pore (metaphorically!)
In looking for further information on Symphony No. 3 (which, apart from IMSLP, was 'slim pickins'), I came across this link to Symphony No. 6 in D major.
https://www.trubcher.com/emilie-mayer-sinfonie-in-e-orchestra
Does anyone have any more information on either of these two symphonies (i.e. nos 3 & 6)?
Best wishes
Richard
which was very confusing until I realized symphony no.6 is in E (no.5 being in D).
sorry for the typo!
Richard
Are there any more "military" symphonies? I know of Haydn's #100 (?) of course and there is Schnyder von Wartensee #3 (again ?).
These three are all in C and presumably Schnyder and Mayer knew Haydn's work (whose name is as always not by Haydn, unlike the other examples) and now wonders if Mayer knew of Schnyder's contribution to the "genre". The "military" instruments are reserved for the last movement in all three symphonies.
I find it also interesting that the parts of Mayer's work (at IMSLP) are in her handwriting (at least they look like that to me) with the exception of one part. I once considered to construct a score form the parts but the job looked too big for me.
Let's stick with Mayer 3 here. Please do start a new thread if you want to discuss 'military symphonies'.
Sincere thanks for these uploads, britishcomposer. I am looking forward to listening to them.
Having listened to the recording I have to say that it is excellently played and conducted. Tempi rather forward leaning which seems appropriate for Mayer and maybe especially for this work.
The work itself is, to put it in one word, fun. It is Mayer's first symphony in a major key and it comes along energetically and largely upbeat. the scherzo is a little darker and also--almost necessarily--the slow introduction.
What struck me most are the many themes that remind me of Haydn. Right at the beginning of the slow introduction is a melody that nobody would be surprised to hear in a Haydn symphony. The main theme of the first movement, the theme of the slow movement and others also have a "Haydn-sound" to them. And of course the "militaire" character is in itself a reference to Haydn. What exactly Mayer had in mind when she made these choices I could not speculate. The last "military" movement is to my ears a bit monotone and not a very effective close.
Yes, Haydn in a thin but very agreeable disguise! Not a bad model for a new symphonist, I'd say.
I wonder if anyone has heard anything concrete about MDG´s plans to release the CD containing her Third Symphony?
At the risk of wandering off topic slightly, does anyone know if Emilie Mayer's 8th symphony is extant or not? We have now been privileged to hear all the others, apart from no. 5, which is, according to Grove, lost.
Unless I'm severely misinterpreting things, Gareth, Grove is wrong. After a cursory glance on the KVK catalogue there are several listings for a 5th Symphony by Mayer. Conversely I don't see her 8th mentioned anywhere, as expected.
This was the listing I posted on another Mayer thread:
Symphony No. 1 in C Minor (premièred before 4 March 1847)
Symphony No. 2 in E Minor (premièred before 4 March 1847)
Symphony No. 3 in C Major "Military" (premièred 21 April 1850)
Symphony No. 4 in B Minor (premièred 16 March 1851)
Symphony No. 5 in D Major (premièred 1 May 1852) - presumed lost
Symphony No. 6 in E Major (premièred 25 April 1853)
Symphony No. 7 in F Minor (1855-56 ; premièred in April 1862) - mislabelled on the Dreyer Gaido CD as "No. 5"
Symphony No. 8 in F Major (1856-57 ; premièred in March 1862) - presumed lost
Plus:
Sinfonie Nr. 9 in g-Moll (aufgeführt 28. April 1871)
My apologies Alan, I missed that one. And apologies to you too, Gareth for my presumptions!
And my apologies too for not referring to that earlier Mayer thread - I thought we had sorted this question out before, but I couldn't remember how we had sorted it out. But now BerlinExpat has thrown in (like the proverbial spanner) a Symphony No. 9!
QuoteSinfonie Nr. 9 in g-Moll (aufgeführt 28. April 1871)
Could you give us details of your source, please?
I have checked back and must apologise. The g-moll symphony performed on 28. April 1871 was by another woman: Aline Hunt!
I thought she was the only the conductor, but in fact was conducting her own symphony!
I sorry for leading you all up the garden path, but where then is Aline Hunt's symphony?
Where are all the overtures Emilie Mayer is supposed to have composed?
No problem - thanks for clearing up the confusion.
Perhaps you'd like to start a new thread on Aline Hunt? If so, please go ahead.
Quote from: BerlinExpat on Wednesday 01 December 2021, 22:43
Where are all the overtures Emilie Mayer is supposed to have composed?
There are scores and parts for 4 different overtures by Mayer on imslp. Do more than those exist?
QuoteWhere are all the overtures Emilie Mayer is supposed to have composed?
The autograph full scores and ms parts of her overtures in D major, C major and D minor are in the Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin. They have been digitised and can be viewed online via the music catalogue. These versions are also available at IMSLP, as tpaloj has noted. I think, together with the Faust Overture of course, these are the only extant overtures by Mayer.
Apparently, the three missing overtures include the following: Ouverture serieuse (performed in Stettin, 1879), Ouvertura giocosa (performed in Stettin, 1883), and an early Overture in C minor for which sketches exist in the Berlin State Library. Since the two overtures were performed in Stettin/Szczecin one can hope that the performance material managed to survive the ravages of time and two world wars and will turn up in Poland one day. Doubtful, but one can hope.
Hello!
Could you also post the recordings of two Flotow's compositions that were broadcasted in this program?
With the imminent arrival of MDG's commercial recording, britishcomposer's recording of the original broadcast of the Emilie Mayer works has been removed form our Downloads Board..
And now a rival recording, plus Symphony No.7, forthcoming from cpo (but evidently not until November??):
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/emilie-mayer-symphonien-nr-3-7/hnum/10892972
Performers: NDR Radiophilharmonie, c. Jan Willem de Vriend
Am I right in thinking, Alan, that the cpo recording of these two symphonies will complete the recordings of all extant symphonies? If so, I think I will order this recording and wait in patience.
Or is this forthcoming recording of the Seventh Symphony, its second incarnation? (the first being as "Symphony No 5", alongside the Le Beau Piano Concerto, on www.dreyer-gaido.de and still available to purchase on amazon.co.uk).
This is what we know (I think):
Symphony No. 1 in C Minor (premièred before 4 March 1847)
Symphony No. 2 in E Minor (premièred before 4 March 1847)
Symphony No. 3 in C Major "Military" (premièred 21 April 1850)
Symphony No. 4 in B Minor (premièred 16 March 1851)
Symphony No. 5 in D Major (premièred 1 May 1852) - presumed lost
*Symphony No. 6 in E Major (premièred 25 April 1853)
Symphony No. 7 in F Minor (1855-56 ; premièred in April 1862) - mislabelled on the Dreyer Gaido CD as "No. 5"
Symphony No. 8 in F Major (1856-57 ; premièred in March 1862) - presumed lost
*This only leaves No.6 to be recorded commercially.
Please consult new thread on Symphony No.6:
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,8322.msg89628.html#msg89628
The Symphony No. 3 received its title "Sinfonie militair" on the occasion of its second performance in the spring of 1851 (no date given) in appreciation of the conductor's support for her music, having given the première the previous year.
The conductor of the Orchester "Euterpe" was Wilhelm Wieprecht, the popular conductor and reformer of Prussian Military Music.
(Source p.110 of Barbara Beuys' "Emilie Mayer - Europas größte Komponistin -Eine Spurensuche")
Interesting. This seems to be contradicted though by the fact that the title "Sinfonie militair" appears on all the original parts--on IMSLP--which are in Mayer's handwriting if I am not seriously mistaken. Given that the title is an obvious reference to Haydn and that the work resembles Haydn's (in both works it is only the last movement that is "militair") it seems more plausible anyway that the name was given by Mayer from the outset (i.e. at the conception stage) and not awarded later.
QuoteThe title "Sinfonie militair" appears on all the original parts
Possibly so, but she worked with handwritten parts for practically all concerts before publishers were willing to take her on. Even then she was expected to pay the costs. The handwritten score and parts of the first performance were most likely reused for the second the following year and she could easily have addded the title then. As she was very reticent about her private life I guess we'll never know for sure.
You can look at the parts here (https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.3_in_C_major_(Mayer%2C_Emilie)). To me it does not look as if the title were added later: "Sinfonie militair" on line 1, then underneath, centered: "no. 3".
Anyone would have had to work with handwritten parts for unpublished works around 1850 (in fact until very recently) but how many composers wrote whole sets of symphony parts themselves? She was willing to do hard work to get her music performed.
For myself I don't doubt that Mayer planned and composed the work as an "hommage à Haydn" and structured it in analogy to Haydn's symphony with the same nickname.
My copy of the new MDG recording arrived this morning - and Symphony No.3 turns out to be another finely crafted work entirely unworthy of neglect.
However, I think it's time for a realistic assessment of Mayer. To be frank, I don't think any of her symphonies are of the front rank; certainly there's nothing to compare with the originality and stature of, say, Kufferath's Symphony in C which is roughly contemporary. I'm not even sure whether Mayer's symphonies are superior to those of, for example, Louise Farrenc. More impressive, I find, is her late Faust Overture, although even this doesn't really 'grab' me.
Perhaps I'm having a bad day. Please feel free to disagree...
While it is tempting to compare female composers to other female composers, it seems to me that we need to be careful to do so because there are so few (especially around this time) and you easily end up comparing apples to oranges on the basis of gender and little else. Instead, why don't we rate Mayer as a Germanic symphonist of the 1850s? Let me begin to say that I really like her melodic facility and the purpose that her works demonstrate. On the other hand, she seems to be quite content to remain within the confines of conventionality; it's rarely very daring music. Overall, I'd rate her as a solid second/third-tier composer - similar to colleagues like Kufferath, Ulrich or Czerny. Definitely a better craftsperson as a symphonist than someone like Spohr, but not on the same level as Gade, Gouvy, or even an original outlier like Bristow. She tends to be very consistent, if not always particularly interesting.
p.s. I do recognize that I'm contradicting my standard disclaimer line (below). No one is perfect.
Kufferath's Symphony in C is way more bold, adventurous and forward-looking than anything by Mayer. If Kufferath is, say, tier 2, then Mayer is definitely tier 3. IMHO, of course!
Quotewhy don't we rate Mayer as a Germanic symphonist of the 1850s?
Even then, of course, we don't have anything like a full knowledge of the field. That said, I don't disagree with either Alan's or Ilja's assessment. Mayer is generally an enjoyable listen, she certainly has a melodic facility, generally a good sense of proportion and sometimes shows imagination in developing her material, but both her harmony and orchestration are very conventional, even old-fashioned, for the times. One gets the impression that she was very aware of what she'd have seen as adhering to the
respectable or
seemly in contemporary art music - probably because she was a woman in a man's world, which was a radical enough thing in itself, without venturing into musically daring areas. I don't like rating composers as first/second/third rate, but we do tend to look back and prize the radicals, those who turned out to be trendsetters like Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Berlioz or Wagner, say, and it's rarer that posterity prizes someone who consolidates or sums up an era - Brahms being the obvious example. Mayer clearly falls into the latter category, and does so without enough real individuality or genius to merit special attention -
except for her sex which, of course, in the historical context is
very relevant and moves her significantly up the rankings as an important phenomenon, even if her music in itself doesn't merit it.
I am confused. Mayer's third is "entirely unworthy of neglect" AND "definitely tier 3". I think "tier 3" as a general rule might be "worthy of neglect"--unless nothing is.
My impression is that the third symphony with its many evocations of Haydn is more "traditional" than the first two--and maybe a little less inspired. I also think the last movement is too long, too repetitive and melodically under endowed. On the whole maybe we SHOULD neglect the third in favor of Mayer's better work.
Tier 5 would be worthy of neglect!
Tier 1 = masterpieces
Tier 2 = near misses
Tier 3 = run-of-the mill works, but of more than historical interest
Tier 4 = historical interest only
Tier 5 = once heard, best forgotten
That's my personal working range - but it's not official! Now back to Emilie...
I believe this is addressed by bulletin Mus2019.03.21bis from the Bureau International des Poids et Mesures.
I rather think it originates from the self grading procedure of ACMP (Amateur Chamber Players).
I didn't get this from anywhere. It's genuinely my own personal and therefore entirely challengeable range.
Just briefly returning to the question discussed earlier of Mayer's objective quality as a composer, I was very agreeably surprised this morning listening to her A minor Piano Trio performed by the Klaviertrio Hannover (see our Downloads Board here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,8554.0.html)). This struck me as a strong work and certainly more individual than most of the symphonies, albeit still with a noticeable Beethoven influence. Now that almost all her orchestral music is available commercially, perhaps labels will turn to her chamber music and we'll discover some gems?
Listening to Mayer's D minor Piano Trio for the first time today, I was struck by its individuality, freshness and abundance of invention which, like the A minor Trio, seem to place it on a higher plane than most of the symphonies, pleasant though they are. I wonder whether she might be yet another example of a composer categorised and found wanting as a "symphonist", whose true forté was another, less prominent, genre - in this case chamber music?
I suppose the title "Sinfonie militair" was supposed to be French. "Sinfonie" was acceptable at the time (now spelled "symphonie"). But "militair" always had, and still have, a final "e", in both masculine and feminine forms: "militaire".
Quote from: jdperdrix on Monday 20 June 2022, 19:42I suppose the title "Sinfonie militair" was supposed to be French. "Sinfonie" was acceptable at the time (now spelled "symphonie"). But "militair" always had, and still have, a final "e", in both masculine and feminine forms: "militaire".
Hmmm! It's German!!
In German (following Haydn) it would be 'Militärsinfonie'. In French - as the new CD has it - it's 'Sinfonie militaire'. The MDG recording has 'Sinfonie militair' (in French), which is grammatically incorrect.
Has anyone seen the score?
Voilà:
https://imslp.org/wiki/File:PMLP856931-MayerE_Symphony3inC_PPN1015735703_strings.pdf (https://imslp.org/wiki/File:PMLP856931-MayerE_Symphony3inC_PPN1015735703_strings.pdf)
So, "Sinfonie militair" is what is written on the title page indeed. Probably jdperdrix's explanation is quite right (and, of course, Alan is totally correct: "Sinfonie militair" is not German, one could say "Militärsinfonie", "Militär-Sinfonie", "Militärische Sinfonie" or whatever): Mayer wanted to gave the piece a French title and made a grammatical error.
I wouldn't get too exercised about this. Up until the end of the 19th century spelling could be extremely flexible in many languages (e.g. Jane Austen wrote 'ancle' for 'ankle', and in the 1890s there is written evidence of 'ache' appearing in reputable publications as 'ake').
Of course, Gareth's remark is fully valid also for the German language – if you read 19th century German texts you will come across many spelling issues which would have counted as mistakes in later days but these were the times before (Konrad) Duden. I have no idea about the French language, and even less about this particular issue (which is finally a minor one as I agree).
Quite right, both of you.
I've just come back from a walk and was thinking exactly the same thing. What I laid out was what would be correct today; however, uniformity of spelling is, as you suggest, a modern science. What's odd is the fact that 'militair', as a word from French, isn't actually spelt that way (it always has an 'e'). Perhaps both 'M/militär' and 'militair' were in circulation at the time in German-speaking states. And perhaps Emilie didn't know French grammar!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Tuesday 21 June 2022, 11:38Any idea what's actually on the score?
You can check all the parts on IMSLP:
https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.3_in_C_major_(Mayer,_Emilie) (https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.3_in_C_major_(Mayer,_Emilie))
As it is explicitly pointed out that the copies of the percussion parts were not written by Mayer herself it seems that all the remaining parts should be due to herself. In any case, the spelling is always "Sinfonie militair" and "Finale Militair".
Apologies, I only spotted the link a few minutes ago - and duly deleted my question!
Of course, whatever the rights and wrongs of the case grammatically speaking, we should run with the composer's designations.
However, the producers of the new CD have clearly decided otherwise!
Quote'M/militär' and 'militair' were in circulation at the time in German-speaking states. And perhaps Emilie didn't know French grammar!
I think you could very well be right, Alan.
As far as I know, "militaire" was never spelled in French without the final e. This title is repeated with the same consistent misspelling on the various parts of the manuscript. Probably a confusion between German and French, between "militär" and "militaire". As I said before, "sinfonie" was a common spelling in France during the 18th and early 19th centuries: Czerny's 2nd symphony is titled "Grande sinfonie". Anyway, "Sinfonie militär" would be incorrect in German, the adjective has to precede the noun. In conclusion, I think the title "sinfonie militair" is a pleasant mix of French and German!
That sounds about right to me!
Within France, there may have been more consistency due to the efforts of the Académie française to maintain uniformity in French spelling, syntax, etc. compared to other languages, if I remember, but the suggestion that Mayer may have been making a cognate/parallel from her native German makes sense. (To this day, after all, people very frequently translate B-dur as B major (etc.!) - because "B", no doubt.) [I am aware that this humor may fall flat.]
Even though this is not about Mayer: Even in the 1970s our music teacher, Armin Schibler for those familiar with Zurich, made us spell "Sinfonie" and scolded those hard who used the pompous quasi-Greek letters y and ph.
I admit: To this day I find the spelling "Symphonie" (in German) unduly pompous.
The rival recording, plus Symphony No.7, forthcoming from cpo, is now advertised as being available from 22nd August:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/emilie-mayer-symphonien-nr-3-7/hnum/10892972
Performers: NDR Radiophilharmonie, c. Jan Willem de Vriend