For those who said they were searching for Florence Price's Symphony #3 in the recent "Florence Price VC's 1 & 2" thread (and were describing understandable price-resistance to the Koch recording), Naxos has recently released, on its "American Classics" sub-label, that symphony plus The Mississippi River & Ethiopia's Shadow in America.
Presto: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9254732--florence-beatrice-price-symphony-no-3-in-c-minor (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9254732--florence-beatrice-price-symphony-no-3-in-c-minor)
Amazon UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Price-Symphony-Vienna-Orchestra-8559897/dp/B09FSCKLHB/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=florence+price+symphony+3&qid=1638052222&qsid=260-9465882-0764903&s=music&sr=1-2&sres=B09KZ5RXQ9%2CB09FSCKLHB%2CB07KM16SDP%2CB0000069CT%2CB00000AEOG&srpt=ABIS_MUSIC (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Price-Symphony-Vienna-Orchestra-8559897/dp/B09FSCKLHB/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=florence+price+symphony+3&qid=1638052222&qsid=260-9465882-0764903&s=music&sr=1-2&sres=B09KZ5RXQ9%2CB09FSCKLHB%2CB07KM16SDP%2CB0000069CT%2CB00000AEOG&srpt=ABIS_MUSIC)
Amazon USA: https://smile.amazon.com/Symphony-3-Vienna-Radio-Orchestra/dp/B09FSCKLHB/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=Florence+Price+Symphony+%233&qid=1638051843&s=music&sr=1-2 (https://smile.amazon.com/Symphony-3-Vienna-Radio-Orchestra/dp/B09FSCKLHB/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=Florence+Price+Symphony+%233&qid=1638051843&s=music&sr=1-2)
Apple: https://music.apple.com/us/album/price-symphony-no-3-the-mississippi-river-ethiopias/1592152081 (https://music.apple.com/us/album/price-symphony-no-3-the-mississippi-river-ethiopias/1592152081)
.....and in the "when it rains, it pours" category, another recording of Price's Symphony #3 (along with the 1st) is due out from DGG in mid-January 2022.
Gramophone: "Nézet-Séguin and his Philadelphia Orchestra are body and soul into the joy and resolve of this music. Price can only have dreamt of performances like these."
Presto shows it here:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9252023--florence-price-symphonies-nos-1-3 (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9252023--florence-price-symphonies-nos-1-3)
If we take it as read and written that many people here are unenthusiastic about new Price releases much time and angst can be saved by all.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Sunday 28 November 2021, 04:05
If we take it as read and written that many people here are unenthusiastic about new Price releases much time and angst can be saved by all.
Understood, but the Price VC thread below included several observations which were anything but "unenthusiastic", including one member who said
"As for the 3rd Symphony...[snip]... I've been looking for a while, and have been unable to find a clean copy for anything less than an arm and two legs.", so that's why I posted this release.
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,6743.msg71717.html#msg71717 (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,6743.msg71717.html#msg71717)
It's easy enough to skip over the topics people are 'unenthusiastic' about, I do it all the time. I for one am grateful for this information...
Dave Hurwitz discusses Florence Price's music here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7x5XyJ8w7Q and is very complimentary about the works on the recently released Naxos disk containing her 3rd Symphony.
Although I don't share in the praise he heaps on the Symphony itself, I must say he otherwise talks a lot of sense about what might be called the politics of gaining entry to the accepted repertoire. Very interesting.
QuoteI must say he otherwise talks a lot of sense about what might be called the politics of gaining entry to the accepted repertoire.
Doesn't he just!
I actually think the other works on that CD are better than the 3rd symphony, however.
Yes, the problem is DH's over-estimate of Price's music. I'm afraid he's climbed on the bandwagon in this case.
Or he's just genuinely convinced it's that good. There are no absolute truths in this matter, and DH, for all his foibles, doesn't come across to me as the bandwagon type.
DH is the usually the creator of his own bandwagons, but not in this case.
Here's his published opinion of Symphonies 1 and 4 on Naxos:
That said, she wasn't much of a symphonist. Price sounds most comfortable when she gets away from the strictures of sonata form–that is, her first movements. These are an uncomfortable patchwork of disconnected ideas, repetitiously restated, especially in the Fourth Symphony. Her slow movements, though, are lovely, and while the First Symphony follows the conventional order of movements, with a "Juba Dance" replacing the third movement scherzo, in the Fourth Symphony the finale actually is a scherzo, preceded by another "Juba Dance." All of this is to say that there's both thought and originality here despite her discomfort with symphonic form, and you will have to decide if it's enough to compensate for those long, stiff opening movements.
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/florence-price-two-symphonies/
Not much of a symphonist - quite! An uncomfortable patchwork of disconnected ideas, repetitiously stated - that's more like it, Dave!
Having followed comments on UC and then seeing the Hurwitz love-fest, I just had to hear the 3rd. I thought that BBC Music magazine had a recording some time ago, and I located it eventually. Never bothered listening to it. I had heard the 1st live in concert a couple of years ago - not impressed at all. Then came the Naxos recording; neither the 1st or 4th seemed worth all the trouble. The 3rd is no masterpiece, either. What does Hurwitz hear that I don't? Of course in the USA today, saying that it's not great music will instantly make you subject to claims of "racist" or misogynist. There is pressure on even small, amateur orchestras to play music other than Dead White European Males. One local orchestra I am involved with has been informed by civic leaders that our future funding will be dependent on us playing music by women, minorities, LGBTQ and other "missing" groups. Price's music would check off a couple of boxes.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 04 December 2021, 10:46
Not much of a symphonist - quite! An uncomfortable patchwork of disconnected ideas, repetitiously stated - that's more like it, Dave!
But he's a) entitled to change his opinion, and b) to have a different one about the Third Symphony - as, since he's calling it "completely successful", he obviously does. There is no eternal truth here, and tastes evolve.
Quote from: MartinH on Saturday 04 December 2021, 13:07
The 3rd is no masterpiece, either.
Nor does it need to be. I thought the whole point of this forum was to leave the thought behind us that a work
needs to be a masterpiece (whatever that means) to deserve attention.
The point, though, Ilja, is that Price's music has been extensively and ridiculously over-hyped. Everyone needs to calm down and reflect with as much objectivity as possible upon her admittedly attractive, but minor talent.
QuoteThe 3rd is no masterpiece, either.
Don't take that comment too literally, Ilja. When we say that something's no masterpiece, we just mean that it's not up to all the hype which suggests that it is.
The objective reality is that Price's music is, generally speaking, of mixed quality. To suggest anything more is just silly and does a grave disservice to the many composers whose music deserves rather more than a fraction of the attention currently being given to hers.
I do observe quite a bit of "overhyping of minor talents" on this forum though--generally this is not discussed much. The question then becomes: Why does it cause a big debate (in two threads) in this case?'
Because nothing about -those- cases allows anyone to gripe about "woke culture" or about how no one plays Beethoven anymore.
The enthusiasm for minor composers on this forum is as nothing in comparison with the overhyping of Florence Price which has taken over the print media (and beyond) in recent months. And then there are the major unsung composers whose achievements far outstrip those of Price who don't even get a look-in as far as the public is concerned because critics and commentators are totally ignorant of them - and usually aren't even curious enough to investigate them. Instead time is spent hyping Price or critiquing the latest project to record some conductor's warped take on an over-recorded masterpiece from the standard repertoire, both of which are an utter waste of time and energy.
Speaking purely for myself, it's not about "wokeness" at all but rather that the over-hyping of Florence Price's music is such an egregious and blatant example of the politicisation of culture, for whatever reason. Her music isn't dreadful by any means, but the plaudits which it currently attracts have little to do with its quality, rather they are awarded (consciously or not) in pursuit of a political agenda and, irrespective of the merits of that agenda, that strikes me as wrong. There are plenty of examples in the past of such deliberate distortions of musical values (Stalin springs to mind as an obvious example) and, if we condemn those in the past, we should be wary of it happening now, as reported by MartinH in his earlier post.
I might as well add my tuppence worth, although I have made my views clear in other Price-related threads. Music and cultural politics go hand-in-hand and, as just noted, at this point in time Price ticks all the boxes. Regardless of its quality - we can debate that endlessly - I believe that the massive resurgence of her music serves primarily political agendas rather than musical ones. In any case, I am pleased to have the opportunity to listen to it!
Quotesuch an egregious and blatant example of the politicisation of culture, for whatever reason
(my emphasis)
I think Mark's making exactly the same point as you, John.
That's true. If only it could be taken purely on its own terms.
And any chance we can lock this thread? I think all points have been said, and repeated, and repeated again, that can possibly be said. Other threads have been locked for less. These two threads risk doing so much to embed the popular image of classical music lovers as crusty men raging and railing against the times, and I am confident that is the last thing we want.
You both make good points, but we'll leave this thread open just a little longer I think.
Then perhaps people could comment specifically on the qualities of Symphony No.3, Mississippi River & Ethiopia's Shadow in America rather than reiterating THAT other point over and over. In answer to John's valid Wagnerian point, I would say that there was no conversation happening here, just repetition.
I'm with Mark on this. Let's concentrate on the music from this point on.
Personally, I'm waiting for the CD release of Symphonies 1 and 3 conducted by Nezet Séguin to find out what the 'Fabulous Philadelphians' make of the music. I'll comment in the New Year...
Perhaps, Christopher, you could offer us your thoughts on Price's music?
I've not had the opportunity to listen to these pieces. With regard to the other works which were on the CD that came with the BBC Music Magazine last year, and to the piano concerto which was played at the Proms this year - I would describe them as pleasant listening that I was happy to discover but which I haven't yet rushed back to. One of them, I can't remember which, had elements of Afro-Caribbean spiritual music which I did like. I would need to listen again to give a more detailed answer. And if I come across the pieces listed in this thread I will also share my thoughts. (Just beware that I lack the skills that others on here have in expressing precisely WHY I like/don't like a piece, for me it is usually much more of a gut reaction than an analytical one.)
As a valid comparison to Grofe she falls short. His Mississippi work is far superior, perhaps the orchestration.
Some excerpts from today's MusicWeb review:
Composers in America have been wrestling with the concept of "The Great American Symphony" for the last hundred and more years. But even a cursory glance at the repertoire show a richly diverse range of symphonic expression in the decade or so around 1940. From William Grant Still's Afro-American Symphony of 1930 or William Levi Dawson's Negro Folk Symphony of 1934 to the more familiar Hanson Romantic of 1930 or Harris No 3 in 1939, Diamond No 1 in 1940, Schuman No 3 & No 4 both in 1941 or Bernstein Jeremiah and Antheil No 4 both in 1942 or Piston No 2 and Gould No 1 in 1943. If you are seeking a female symphonic composer go right back to Amy Beach's Gaelic of 1894 which is every bit as imaginative and well-written as Price's - just fifty years earlier...
By choosing a folk-influenced melodic idiom Price sets herself several problems. Folk-melodies are notoriously short-breathed and difficult to 'develop' in traditional symphonic form. This is especially true of the Symphony's first movement. The work begins promisingly with some richly voiced brass writing warmly played here by the ORF Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra. But Price's first subject theme is disappointingly mundane and she struggles to develop it effectively. The result often resorts to Constant Lambert's assessment of folk-music in the classical idiom; "The whole trouble with a folk song is that once you have played it through there is nothing much you can do except play it over again and play it rather louder". Likewise Price's handling of the orchestra lacks imagination here. For a mid 20th Century work she orchestrates in a late 19th Century manner (the third movement is markedly different and better). By no means is it badly orchestrated just surprisingly unadventurous. Much the same could be said for her harmonic sense as well. The melodic shapes she uses do favour bluesy flattened note harmonies and occasional hints of pentatonicism. But these are – quite literally – moments of passing harmonic frisson. At no time does Price operate on a heightened level of dissonance and indeed her harmonies are resolutely tonal.
The exception is the Symphony's third movement – Juba. A juba dance originated with African slaves. By the late 19th Century it was a popular feature of Minstrel Shows and the sound of it as represented in the symphony is reminiscent of Scott Joplin's Ragtime Dance and in general the syncopated music of the pre-jazz era. Curiously, Price's orchestration is suddenly more interesting and more colourful. Freed of the 'requirements' of symphonic form this is a pleasing self-contained movement as long as one accepts that neither rhythmically or harmonically is this anything like as sophisticated as the scores Duke Ellington was producing at much the same time – Black, Brown & Beige of 1943 is the most obvious example. The finale proves to be a rather serious return to academic symphonic procedure with a sense of dutiful working out of musical material rather than anything touched by inspiration...
...My sense is that viewed objectively, Price's music lies within the second tier, proficient but too rarely inspired and curiously bound by the very conservative tradition that you might expect it to challenge.
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/Dec/Price-sy3-8559897.htm
Juba is fantastic, the rest is second-tier as Barnett points out. However, the interest lies in something new and exciting from an American composer.