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Very strange, perhaps sabotage?? A pity that also all my detailed explanations about Respighi's early musical influences were just done for nothing :-(
Who would do it, though? And why?
Yes... that is strange ??
actually .. that was my bonus question... Respighi was taught by Rimsky-Korsakov (the only non Russian AFAIK)
Care to explain again, Adriano?
... and my two detailed replies were just to demonstrate that Respighi was NOT taught by Rimsky-Korsakov, but that he was offered to ask some advice, after he has showed him some of his early works he brought over to Russia. I listed all those early works in my last reply (gone lost), mentioning their mostly French influences (Franck, Saint-Saens etc). Only two works by Respighi were inspired from Russian composers, but more by Glazunov and Ljapunov than by Rimsky: his Fantasia Slava for piano and orchestra (containing but a secondary trumpet motif one could associated to Rimsky, the rest has even influences from Smetana) - and his ballet-pastiche La Pentola magica (quoting quite a few Russian composers, except Rimsky!). As far as his instrumentation technique is concerned, all those who say that he was influenced by Rimsky should consider the fact that Respighi, before visiting Russia, had also studied Debussy and Richard Strauss, which were both better orchestrators than Rimsky - and, as far as musical form is concerned, less academic. During his two Russian stays, Respighi even gave lessons himself in harmony and counterpoint - this after he had learned the Russian language in a very short time. Apparently, he was a language genius, so that he spoke about 8 different languages.
Mark, this may interest you: in 1897, Martucci (Respighi's teacher) conducted Raff's Symphony "Im Walde" in Bologna; a work which caused a immense impression. Respighi's "forest rustling" in the first movement of his Suite in E (see my Naxos CD) may have been slightly insipred by Raff. Funny enough, when he revised the score later, he gave to each movement a "program" title, and the first one was entitled "nella foresta".
The last movement of this Suite is, however, very much à la Dvorak (except when the rustling comes up again as a reminder)...
And a propos Raff, G. Templeton Strong's Suite "Die Nacht" is a definitely Raff-inspired work!
Sorry you had to give the R-K explanation again, Adriano, but I'm sure we're all grateful that you did. I'm certainly fascinated by the unexpected Raff influence on Respighi, but not all surprised by his influence on Templeton Strong. I must listen again to Die Nacht and Respighi's Suite again.
QuoteRespighi was taught by Rimsky-Korsakov
NO, he wasn't. (See above).
Do Rudolf Tobias and Artur Kapp (both from Estonia) count as Russian?
Can we say then he was influenced by many?
If you read Hadrianus' post above the answer is very clear - and he knows what he's talking about.
8)
Thank you Alan!.... I learned something today. And no Kapp and Tobias were not ethnic Russians, but born and spoke Estonian. Just like many people in the region, they learned Russian since they were part of the Russian Empire pre-1917, and unfortunately, were again invaded by the Soviet army in 1941.
Alan asked: Who would do it, though? And why?
Maybe a focus on Romantic composers - i.e. pre-Soviet, pro-Czarist composers producing bourgeois music, now feted by Western capitalist running dogs - was too much for Putin's men. ???
Well in that case I'm steering clear of Salisbury for a while then.
Too close to me for comfort!
Much as I'm glad that someone has a stake in Salisbury before it all mushrooms, the references all pass me by I'm afraid. Peace!
See this UK news story (https://news.sky.com/story/home-secretary-to-make-statement-on-salisbury-spy-poisoning-11280590), Eric.
Ah. Heard of that, forgot the where. Sorry!!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 05 March 2018, 11:57
QuoteRespighi was taught by Rimsky-Korsakov
NO, he wasn't. (See above).
Do Rudolf Tobias and Artur Kapp (both from Estonia) count as Russian?
Haha, no! And please don't (for your own sake) ask that of an Estonian should you ever be there/meet one/ Sure Estonia was part of the Russian Empire but so was most of Poland and all of Finland...but I don't think anyone concerned for his own welfare would ask if Chopin/Moniuszko/Sibelius might be counted as Russian.... ;D
:)
How many like Liadov (Enchanted Lake for one)?
Yes, love Enchanted Lake and Baba Yaga. His other works don't (yet) stand out for me.
I love all 5 of Lyadov's symphonic pieces - and his 8 Russian Folk Songs.
The 1970 Svetlanov Melodiya recordings are great. Later in 1992, Veronika Dudarova also made an excellent CD with Lyadov's music (on the Olympia label), including some unknown pieces like "Dance of the Amazons", "First Scherzo for Orchestra", "Polonaise" and "Doleful Song".
"The Enchanted Lake", "From the Apokalypse" are masterworks!
yes, the "The Enchanted Lake" is one of my favorites. I found it interesting to research Lyadov and learn about this interactions with Rimsky-Korsakov.
I'm more a fan of 2 of Lyadov's pupils, one of whom is closer to this forum's orbit than the orbit (and even then not all the time).
Wonderful minor composer. I used the op. 49 Polonaise in a concert last year and it was quite well received by orchestra and audience alike. Looking into 8 Russian Folk songs this year. Wish he had written more, but he was notoriously lazy.
Alas I have another recording but love his material. Quite unsung too.
Quoteyes, the "The Enchanted Lake" is one of my favorites. I found it interesting to research Lyadov and learn about this interactions with Rimsky-Korsakov.
I too did this research. Rimsky taught and influenced many. :)
Quote from: MartinH on Tuesday 20 March 2018, 14:34
Wonderful minor composer. I used the op. 49 Polonaise in a concert last year and it was quite well received by orchestra and audience alike. Looking into 8 Russian Folk songs this year. Wish he had written more, but he was notoriously lazy.
We played the Russian Folk Songs in the student's orchestra years ago. Very well worth playing and not too difficult! Lovely solo for the lead cellist (or was it 4 way divisi? I am not sure now; there were only four cellists).
The world of unsung music !
I actually find Lyadov's instrumentation technique superior to Rimsky's, and in many places, more innovative. I think Rimsky is considered as a top instrumentalist mainly because he wrote a handbook of instrumentation. Of course, there is a lot of brilliancy in his work, but there are so many clumsily or academically orchestrated passages, especially in his operas!
An interesting episode in Lyadov's biography is that Serge Diaghilev had commissioned him to compose a "Firebird" ballet before approaching Stravinsky. After "lazy" Lyadov could not cope with this task, Rimsky suggested him he should write a fairy-tale opera, but here too, it did not work. The tone poem "Kikimora" may be a result of this attempt.
I look forward to your posts :) as I learn so much. An interesting what if. Scheherazade put Rimsky-Korsakov to the front with his orchestrations.
Sheherazade may be his most brilliant example, but formally it is quite a simple thing. Played in its piano reduction (which is always a good test for musical analysis) it becomes a bore...
I have been listening to Liapounov's grand and colorful Symphony #2, a live recording from 1998 with the great Evgueni Svetlanov leading the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France, and I am so thankful- while there may be clouds on the horizon, we are in a Golden Age for recordings of Unsung [and "Semi-sung"] composers. I remember back in ca. 1970 you could not find a recording of any of the Glazounov symphonies- I finally found a Russian Cultural shop in NYC [I was a member of the Glazounov Society of America and the president was a wonderful guide, who had ferreted out the source] and was able to get a couple of recordings, by special order. It was not until 1975 that EMI/Angel brought out Fedoseyev's recordings of the Glazounov symphonies- not all of them, but at least 4,5 and 6. The notes were astonishing- condescending, full of left handed complements, etc. - why do [or did] record companies undermine the sales of their records with unenthusiastic support? Happily, now we have competing sets of nearly everything that Glazounov wrote; and that is just one example.
While I agree that there may be troubles ahead, the world of Classical Music is so much richer today than it was before the age of CD and the internet.
Glazunov: Practically all of his orchestral works were recorded by Svetlanov and the USSR SO between 1961 and 1990 (including the complete ballets) on 18 CDS (3 boxed sets) on the rather unofficial SVET (and not Warner!) label - an edition "protected" or authorised by his widow. It's perhaps no more available, but it came out in 2008. Music Web was selling this edition directly. A real sensation! And, besides the Symphonies conducted by Fedoseyev, there is also a very satisfactory alternative version by the BBC Wales Orchestra conducted by Tadaaki Otaka on the BIS label (5 CDS).
...or, even better, Serebrier on Warner.
...and the Svetlanov set is still available:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Symphonies-Glazunov/dp/B003HM3BEA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1522009218&sr=8-1&keywords=glazunov+svetlanov (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Symphonies-Glazunov/dp/B003HM3BEA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1522009218&sr=8-1&keywords=glazunov+svetlanov)
Yes Alan, but this is the Warner set of the Symphonies on 6 CDs only, not the "complete" 18 CD 3-volumes on the SVET/MusicWeb licensed set I was talking about:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2008/Nov08/Glazunov_Svet27.htm
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2008/Nov08/Glazunov_Raymonda_SVET34-41-16.htm
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Apr09/Glazunov_Symphonies_SVET21-26.htm
Unfortunately, Svetlanov did not record Glazunov's concertos. I know Serebrier did.
Cannot remember why, but I wasn't too enthusiastic about Serebrier's recordings of the Symphonies... Perhaps because after I had to learn how (unjustly) nastily he behaved with this orchestra too...
Yes, I'm aware the set only contains the symphonies - I referred to it because your post concluded with mentions of various recordings of those works in particular. I know nothing of Serebrier - except that his Glazunov symphonies are wonderfully played and interpreted.
BTW why should anyone pay £45 to buy the symphonies from MusicWeb when they can be purchased for far less at Amazon?
NB: they're no longer available from MusicWeb...
More expensive because it's a semi-private (and perhaps not too legal) label - a thing which I respect. Incidentally, the liner notes are by Rob Barnett.
Warner can sell at lower prices since they are a big company and distributed worldwide. And, if I am not wrong, the SVET-set of 3x6 CDs was released 2 years before the Warner one, so at that time there was no Svetlanov alternative for the complete Symphonies. Meanwhile, Amazon USA sells the Warner Symphonies it for 39 Dollars and Amazon UK for 27 Pds., but they were Warner were more expensive (over here in Switzerland, in Germany and in France) when they came out. The whole ambitious Svetlanov project was dropped by Warner because the CDS did not sell well enough.
Still, the Svetlanov set - at £6-7 per disc - is pretty cheap at Amazon.
QuoteSheherazade may be his most brilliant example, but formally it is quite a simple thing. Played in its piano reduction (which is always a good test for musical analysis) it becomes a bore...
so much to learn
Well-
(1) composers are often best-known - even years later, not just during their lifetimes - by music that is not their best or most representative.
(2) Rimsky, afai(think I)k, wrote a wide variety of very interesting music of which much better things can be said. (Yes, I still keep meaning to listen to his last opera and several other works he wrote in his late years, which sound very interesting; will do so soon. I am very distractable (... shiny ferret?...))
By the way, Svetlanov's (Soviet-time) recordings of Glazunov's symphonies and other orchestral works have only recently been reissued by Melodiya as part of a large anthology which presents Svetlanov conducting Russian and Soviet music:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/aram-khachaturian-anthology-of-russian-and-soviet-symphoniy-music-vol-2/hnum/7619111 (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/aram-khachaturian-anthology-of-russian-and-soviet-symphoniy-music-vol-2/hnum/7619111)
Of course, these are 55 discs costing €400 and therefore mostly for enthusiasts (in fact, I recently decided to buy a copy).
Ridiculous price. Why can't they break the set down sensibly?
Who is going to buy this?? And this is a second volume already? Would never buy such an edition with many different composers... At the maximum I would choose a set concentrating on one composer only like the ones we talked about earlier (Glazunov). I also never buy "monument" sets honouring a single artist. In other words, the Russians now publish that Svetlanov legacy edition (is it really complete??) which Warner was unable to... Anyway, Svetlanov isn't as exciting as that to be in need everything he recorded.
Now to Svetlanov's second recording of Tchaikovsky's "Manfred" Symphony (Japan live recording, a separate Warner issue):
The work is played here in an unpardonable drastically cut version. In the 4th movement, for example, the postlude-like "redemption" episode with the organ is omitted completely. Earlier in the same movement there is an absurd cut of over 50 bars, whose translation now sounds awfully brutal.
To the dramatic ending chords of the first movement, Svetlanov adds a handful of extra - clumsy and silly syncopated - tamtam clashes. As far as I remember, this could be coming from a Golovanov version.
Not to speak about the fact that the recording has a continuous humming, sounding as if coming from an air conditioning device.
Does a masterwork like "Manfred" really need all this to become more interesting??
As far as the interpretation is concerned, the fourth movement of this live recording is quite thrilling, but the rest remains conventional and rather boring. There are so many reasons - in spite of an inferior sound quality - to prefer Svetlanov's earlier (1970) - and complete - recording, revealing an overall compact atmosphere...
Sounds like my first GE stereo when I was 10 :)
Huh? ???
the buzz
...of excitement? Or a hum?
In my last posting I've corrected the word "hum" into "humming", in case this may cause some excitement :-)
I remember a concert I attended in Vienna. USSR Tchaikovsky SO under Vladimir Fedoseyev. The Manfred was severely cut! The TCHAIKOVSKY SO!!!!!!! My goodness. Many in the public were very enthusiastic. I was angry. Do you have a recommendation for a true great Manfred recording Hadrianus?
Jurowski?
There are several excellent Manfred Symphony interpretations, starting from (if I am not wrong) the first stereo version by Igor Markevitch (1965), followed by Maazel (1971) and Ahronovitch (1977), just to mention the 3 "separate CD issues", besides those already included in "complete Symphonies" boxes by Svetlanov (early version), Muti, Caetani, Pletnjev (both versions), Rostropovich, Jansons and Kitaenko - which all figure in my collection. They are all uncut versions. The exciting (mono) version by Toscanini is, unfurtunately, also cut.
Perhaps I am going to buy Vasily Petrenko's version on Naxos and the old Rozhdesvensky one (which Melodyia could have included in their (excellent) complete Tchaikowsky Symphonies box, but perhaps they didn't because he recorded it with another orchestra).
Maazel's is (if I am not wrong) the only version using a real deep, mysterious and bleak church bell in the 3rd movement, instead of the usual dull orchestral tubular bells.
Ahronovitch's version is one of the most "personal" ever, but still in the concept of the composer; I just adore it!
Ahronovich also managed to record (with Tomas Vasary) the best version of Rachmaninov's concertos, as far as the orchestral accompaniment is concerned. He and the pianist created a wonder!
Such a pity that Karajan and Bernstein never cared about the Manfred Symphony! They would have delivered exciting - and wonderfully played - interpretations of this very difficult work.
Before "cleaning up" my LP and, lately, my CD collection, I had a half a dozen more Manfreds...
I have studied this score thorougly many times. In my personal opinion, the Ahronovich, Maazel and Jurowski ones are the best. Caetani's is also excellent - he is Markevitch's son; he told me that his father's (and his own) tempi should be closest to those Tchaikovsky intended - as far as he could learn from people who worked with the composer.
I have the large score of Manfred from the first complete Tchaikovsky edition published by Muzgiz in 1949. I bought it in the 1970s, at a time it was already a rarity and was very proud to possess it. I even found a printing mistake (not figuring in their errata list) and dared to write to the publisher about it – and he even answered. I just find this, my first Russian incoming letter of 1972 is still in my archive... Of course, in the meantime, there are better editions of this work, as, for example, the Eulenburg. The new (in)complete NCE Tchaikovsky edition in 76 volumes is too expensive – and progressing too slowly (as, for example, the new Scriabin edition in 12 volumes, which I still hope tob e able to buy in complete during my life).
Did some of you realise that the second movement of this Symphony has his main "waterfall spray" theme all written down in a syncopated way? Untraiend ears do not hear this, but as a sensitive conductor one should emphasize this, and not just be vexed about it, making one have to concentrate a lot more as if it was written down in a non syncopated way...
Thanks for asking, this is one of my "desert island" music pieces :-)
hum, but I was most excited about the equipment and the recording of Tchaikovsky :)
Thank you for this Hadrianus - Tchaikovsky is far and away my favourite of all composers, sung and unsung. And yet the Manfred Symphony has always left me cold, if not asleep (so, unsung to me). It just has never done ANYTHING for me. Now, I will listen to it with new ears, and especially will hunt down the recordings you mention.
It's one of the great unsung works by a sung composer.
Oddly, I've heard Manfred several times but not yet I think his much more sung All-Night Vigil eg... time to do something about that- tonight even maybe.
I should have specified that I love the "Manfred Symphony" not for its music di per se, but for its masterful counterpoint and instrumentation. Such pieces are also worthy to be carried over to the desert island :-)
Tchaikovsky is now on the brilliant "instrumentation level" of his 2nd and 3rd orchestral Suites. As far as the written program with musical scheme supplied him by Balakirev, he did not follow the proposed key signatures - and he even excused himself for not having done so.
Funny enough, being inspired by "Harold en Italie", in my opinion, the same attributes of being musically of minor value also apply to Berlioz's piece ... "Manfred" is, of course, more interesting, more "modern" and full of "daring" and "experimental" harmonies/chords. The most picturesque, but also the most "easy to hear" movement of "Manfred" is the third. When I first heard it (on the Markevitch LP), I was disappoined, but today I see more values. It is build-up in a quite interesting way, using 7 different keys...
The "daemonic atmosphere" in the 4th movement has a more plausible "references" than the orgy in Berlioz "Harold": the finale of his "Symphonie Fantastique", but one could perhaps also refer to Liszt's "Faust Symphonie" or to his (Tchaikovsky's) own "Francesca da Rimini", written 12 years earlier.
Incidentally, Tchaikovsky also knew and appreciated Schumann's "Manfred" - which I still considers an "unsung" piece.
Now (at last) to the Rozhdestvensky recording of "Manfred Symphony". This is a real discovery. In my opinion it is the best Russian conductor-Russian orchestra recorded version, with no comparison to both Svetlanov versions. We have now a lot of sensitivity, sense for compactness, contrasts, colour and dramatism. The 4th movement has ideal tempi. It's a real pleasure to listen to this 1989 recording, re-issued by the "alto" label.
There are two negative points:
1) The sound is not ideal, but still very acceptable and much better than in the first Svetlanov recording. The orchestra should be more present and with less reverb.
2) "Manfred" is coupled with a recording of Tchaikovsky's Overture in C minor conducted by Sergei Skripka. I consider this a profanation. But I am a burned child as far as Maestro Skripka is concerned (see my article "too obscure" in the chapter "sceial features" of my website).
Somehow the name suggests "Conducted by Violin"...
Right, eschiss1 - and when I personally met him in 1994, his strings screeched at me hysterically. He made, actually, some intersting recordings (including Shebalin's 2nd and 4th Symphony), and recorded a lot of soundtracks with his Cinema Orchestra. He was (or still is) chief of the Moscow Cinema Museum (which, thanks to him, I was forbidden to visit).
Skripka is a quite common name. As an insturment, it is a particular Azerbajani fiddle with 4 strings tuned in fifths.
I have heard his recordings of those two symphonies- I'd forgotten. Sympathies re museum.
... does that mean kvartet ...2 skripki etc are actually not for the usual stringed instruments? I thought I was just joking...
I was joking too, eschiss1 :-)
All violins have 4 strings tuned in fifths, and a Russian violin is indeed a skripka - but also a cheaper fiddle - er even a synthesizer. So I preferred to associate that conductor with the latter two, using in here the Adzerbajani or Uzbek version (more correctly spelled "skrjpka", if I am not wrong), but written in a non-cyrillic alphabet...
Incidentally, Skripka's recording of Tchaikovsky's 7th (E flat) Symphony ("reconstructed" by Semyon Bogatyryev) was promoted in Russia as "A Life's Symphony" and as a world premier recording - many years after Ormandy's version of 1962! I think even Järvi's 1994 version came before Skripka's (which is the worst version, considering Kitaenko's magnificent new one of 2015).