Hey everyone !
I hope I'm not posting in the wrong place. Let me explain in a few words who I am : I'm the co-founder of ComposHer, a collective that works to promote classical music written and played by women. One of the things we would like to do is actually edit works by female composers to make them more available to the general public. Of course, we focus on pieces which haven't been edited yet or which need a more modern edition than the one available. In my research about female composers in general, I often find myself on this forum, where I did find some extremely precise and useful information, so I thought I would come and ask directly :
Do you have in mind interesting female composers from the romantic era, and specific pieces that need to be edited ? I'm interested in anything : works for choir, orchestra, chamber music ... anything !
I realize that some of you might be trying to do the same things, or working in similar ways to find and promote forgotten works. I do not wish to insinuate that I'm the first to try and do that, on the contrary, I came here to see if people with more experience and years of research could help me in my project. I'll welcome any input !
Thanks so much for your help !
Marie, for ComposHer
I am sure you are aware of this but I think it needs to be answered: Furore Verlag and Hildegard Publishing both specialize in this sort of repertoire. Plus there is IMSLP. Given all this what do you plan to do or how do you think you will complement these already existing efforts?
One more thought: One of the problems is money: Louise Farrenc's violin sonata op. 39 costs $39 at Hildegard, the first volume of Beethoven violin sonatas (5 sonatas) by Henle $43. If you had never heard of Farrenc would you invest this much for this one sonata if you can get five of Beethoven's for just a little more (or each one individually for a fraction of the Farrenc)? I am not saying Farrenc's music is not worth it, quite the opposite, but those who haven't heard of her won't see it that way.
I understand perfectly why these publishers have to charge more if they want to cover their cost: They count on a small number of buyers--and are forced to make that number even smaller with their pricing. One way to reduce cost is what Merton Music and Silvertrust are doing: Taking the original edition, correcting any mistakes, fixing any hard to read sections, adding rehearsal marks if necessary and printing the result rather than re-engraving the whole work. But even this process involves a lot of work I would guess.
Dear Marie,
I think this is an excellent enterprise. Music publishing today is actually cheaper than it ever has been, since the birth of digital technology and programmes like "Sibelius". No-one is denying the considerable work that may have to be put in to editing and preparing a score but, once done, reproducing it is relatively inexpensive. So I applaud this project very much. The music publishers Double-A mentions do good work but that does not mean there is no room for others.
Among female composers deserving of wider recognition (IMHO), many of whose works remain in MS and are not therefore widely available, the following names spring immediately to mind:
Dorothy Howell
Lilian Elkington
Ruth Gipps
Dora Bright
Morfydd Owen
Emilie Mayer
Ina Boyle
Johanna Senfter
Freda Swain
Contributors to this forum will be able to add other names to this list. In the case of Dorothy Howell I can put you in touch with her niece who has all her MSS, and with Freda Swain I know who has all her MSS. Also, somewhere in my collection I believe I have photocopies of the MS score and parts of Lilian Elkington's "Out of the Mist".
I wish your project well. Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Quote from: Double-A on Friday 28 September 2018, 03:01
I am sure you are aware of this but I think it needs to be answered: Furore Verlag and Hildegard Publishing both specialize in this sort of repertoire. Plus there is IMSLP. Given all this what do you plan to do or how do you think you will complement these already existing efforts?
Yes, I know about those two and I greatly appreciate their work. Actually, one thing I haven't made clear is that I want to volunteer my time for this, i.e. do it freely. The goal is indeed to put the scores on IMSLP. I'm not looking to create a publishing company at this point, and I don't think I will want to.
The point you raise about the money issue is a good one, and that's also the core of my project : I want to make the scores available and useful for amateur musicians and ensembles.
Overall I realize this is quite a difficult balance : I don't want to ruin the work of actual publishing companies by re-doing it for free, but I do believe that something can be done even if it's in the end only a few pieces. I recently put the orchestra parts of Emilie Mayer's Faust Ouverture on IMSLP (only the complete score was there). It's not great because that's the first transcribing "job" I did (and on Musescore), but it's a start and I'm also working on her first symphony, the manuscript of which being on IMSLP.
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Friday 28 September 2018, 09:19
Contributors to this forum will be able to add other names to this list. In the case of Dorothy Howell I can put you in touch with her niece who has all her MSS, and with Freda Swain I know who has all her MSS. Also, somewhere in my collection I believe I have photocopies of the MS score and parts of Lilian Elkington's "Out of the Mist".
I wish your project well. Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Thanks Gareth, that's great ! I'm aware of most of these composers, although not all of them so that's already an addition to our database. I am working on Emilie Mayer manuscripts as I mentioned, and I will do some research on the others. Thank you very much !
Quote from: Double-A on Friday 28 September 2018, 03:01
One more thought: One of the problems is money
Maybe she wants to publish the score free of charge? Farrenc for no money would maybe more interesting than Beethoven for 43US$...
Best,
Tobias
btw if you want me to remove a couple of the Mayer manuscript symphonies (some of which I uploaded/mirrored-with-slight-tweaks-from-SBB) from IMSLP (I see since that, that while the manuscripts were uploaded by libraries, there may be some copyright issues since they have been published in typeset form recently, and as to others you may be working on doing the same) I will do so - sorry about.
I believe there is an entire project to edit the works of Johanna Senfter, but so far, they only have managed to release one of her symphonies (the 4th). It would be interesting to contact the people working on the project to see what else they have managed to complete in performance-worthy editions.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Friday 28 September 2018, 13:09
btw if you want me to remove a couple of the Mayer manuscript symphonies (some of which I uploaded/mirrored-with-slight-tweaks-from-SBB) from IMSLP (I see since that, that while the manuscripts were uploaded by libraries, there may be some copyright issues since they have been published in typeset form recently, and as to others you may be working on doing the same) I will do so - sorry about.
On the contrary, I'm actually working on her 1st symphony and I'm glad the manuscript is on IMSLP. Copyright issues are a bit of a puzzle for me. I was under the impression that if a piece is in the public domain and the manuscript is legally available (as I assume it is when uploaded by librairies), I can publish it in typeset form whithout any other constrain. But I might be wrong.
Actually I think it's also the case for non public domain pieces, for instance : if Gareth were to send me the scans of Lilian Elkington "Out of the mist" manuscripts, it would be legal for me to upload a typeset version of them, as long as I do so under the right license. But I might be completely mistaken, maybe you guys know more than me about this.
Quote from: JimL on Friday 28 September 2018, 15:01
I believe there is an entire project to edit the works of Johanna Senfter, but so far, they only have managed to release one of her symphonies (the 4th). It would be interesting to contact the people working on the project to see what else they have managed to complete in performance-worthy editions.
Thanks, I'll take a look !
actually, since Mayer's works were mostly first performed in the 1840s, manuscripts can indeed be scanned/rescanned without copyright concerns in many jurisdictions, iirc, because those first performances do generally count as first "publications", not the more recent 2000sies publications that claim to be Erstdruck (and which so far as first appearance on -paper- is concerned, are). The law here is at once complicated but somehow intuitive. A performance or a publication, so far as an unpublished work (from before a certain date-this does NOT apply to very recent works) counts as a "delivery" of the work and has the same "publication" status under law for setting "first publication date" status earlier.
Lilian Elkington died after 1967 (1969) so her unpublished music -is in copyright everywhere-, and it would not be legal for you to upload a typeset without at the least the consent of her estate or copyright holders! See IMSLP's guide to public domain status (https://imslp.org/wiki/Public_domain) - tables regarding public domain status of -unpublished- music.
Hi Marie,
I think this is an admirable project. A few years ago I went on a similar trawl for unpublished manuscripts, my particular angle being 19th century British chamber music. I was able to locate several in the libraries of the RAM, RCM and Fitzwilliam that the librarian was able to scan for me (at a price) and content for me to publish on IMSLP. I think even for some of these composers copyright status was somewhat unclear, but after such a passage of time the librarians were happy to look the other way.
A sticking point did arise over an early 20th century composer who died without issue and whose manuscripts had been deposited in the RAM by a family member. In this case the librarian was anxious for me to identify his closest living relative for permission to publish. There was a loophole however. IMSLP is hosted in Canada where "orphan" mss of this sort seem to be regarded in the same light as published works, being copyright protected for just 50 years after the composer's death, so no objections were raised.
Although like you I wasn't seeking any payment for my work, I still found territorial issues sometimes got in the way. If the manuscripts belong to a trust there will usually already be a family member or academic enthroned who regards the composer as his "patch", to the extent that even offers of free assistance (that can only be to the advantage of the composer's reputation) are rebuffed. With a great deal of current interest in female composers I think you may find it hard to locate much material that isn't in some sense already spoken for. Rebecca Clarke is a particular case in point - my advice would be don't go there!
But best of luck anyway
As a post-script to my story of the early 20th century composer, after 6 or more years I've made contact with his closest living relative, coincidentally living in Canada. He looked in his basement and discovered a stash of further ms material he didn't know existed!
Ah yes, I was being naive about those copyright issues. To be fair it's not easy understanding what's perfectly legal, tolerated, frowned upon, etc. Thanks for the clarifications though !
And it is definitely a delicate issue. I wasn't really planning to go near composers who are not in the public domain but there's not that many manuscripts available for the 19th century.
Have you looked at Luise Adolpha Le Beau? And there are two attractive orchestral pieces by Agatha Backer-Grondahl: Andante for piano and orchestra, and a Scherzo. Scans of these MSS are on IMSLP. Performing editions and orchestral sets would be very useful.
further as to Mayer, Stabikat Berlin has now digitized a whole lot of her manuscript music, including a number of brief piano works, but unlike the symphonies, I'm not sure how much of it we can say with confidence was ever -publicly- performed.
BNF/Gallica(.bnf.fr) has a few manuscript piano works by Louise Farrenc up, I note, too. (Oddly(?) only a few manuscripts scanned by Chaminade, but I notice one of them is of her song Les papillons.)
Hi Marie, You might be able to find the score of Dora Bright's Piano Concerto No. 1 in a by contacting any of the principals of the performance within last few years by the young pianist Samantha Ward who played it with the Morley Chamber Orchestra conducted by Charles Peebles, I was able to correspond with Samantha Ward, but it has been awhile, I think Google might help. Nice piece to my ears, the pianist better than the orchestra, but never dreamed I would hear it at all.
The MS score of Dora Bright's A minor piano concerto, her only extant PC, is in the library of the RAM. I have read it there. RAM also has her Variations on an original theme for piano and orchestra. Samantha Ward performed it at Morley College, so the authorities there may be able to put you in touch with her. Or she can be contacted through her website: www.samanthaward.org It is a very fine work IMHO.
Marie, I just now found your response to my concerns. It turns out you want to do something similar to what I have been doing--though unlike you without a gender focus (but my favorite among the pieces I worked on is Emilie Mayer's e-minor quartet). Music published on IMSLP is indeed affordable and broadly accessible.
Since you want to address amateur players I suppose you are more looking at chamber music than orchestral. Anyway, for a single person transcribing a symphony and fashioning it into a score and a set of usable parts is a monster project.
I have stopped working on Mayer's quartets (I have transcribed one more but not published it) because the Furore Verlag is issuing a complete edition now. But there are piano trios and violin sonatas that exist only in manuscript that would certainly be worth a look. I suspect that most of her autographs are in Berlin (Stabikat) but have not (yet?) been digitized.
About this copyright issue (i.e. it depends on if the work has been performed): I am not sure how this would work. Who would have standing to sue you? What sort of performance would count? The only party that might sue is a prospective publisher.
It's another of those grey (40 shades?) legal areas that seem to proliferate in the music business. Technically I suppose someone must be the legal owner of Emilie Mayer's mss but at this interval of time nobody knows who, least of all the owner. To establish that there's been a public performance I suppose you'd have to find a printed poster, but what are the chances of that? The risk of being sued I should say is in the same order as of a lightning strike. Librarians like to stay within the letter of the law but they aren't responsible for policing it and my experience is that with material of this age they're happy to look the other way. I wonder what Stabikat Berlin's attitude would be but if they'll let you have the scans you're home free.
I don't need to tell you that with anything described on IMSLP as "public domain" there's no restriction, and if anyone should want to contest that IMSLP will be their target. Anything posted under a "creative commons" licence I believe you can do what you like with provided you acknowledge the licence holder.
I can vouch for the quality of certain of Mayer's works. I'd rather forgotten the E minor string quartet (I made a multitrack "rendition" of Double-A's notation that can be heard on IMSLP) but it's rather good.
Great discussion here and good to learn many of these less known names. (Is the partitura to Ruth Gipps' Piano Concerto ever published, anyone?)
Some time ago I tried looking into whether Marie Jaëll's two Piano Concerti had been edited & published. Many of her Manuscripts are at BNF, digitized and available, including autographs of both concerti. To my knowledge, full scores to neither of the works were originally published - only two-piano arrangements of each were. These works were recorded by the pianist Cora Irsen in recent times but I wasn't able to find more information whether they might have subsequently made edited scores available (it doesn't appear so).
Since these works are public domain, digitized, freely available on BNF, and first performed in the late 1800's, there should be no issues should someone want to typeset & publish their own editions of them, right? It would be a huge undertaking though. The 2nd Concerto's two-piano arrangement, available on IMSL, is interesting in that whole sections of the principal piano part are much unlike from what's in the full score manuscript.
I wouldn't start working on these pieces without confirmation from Irsen or the conductor whether they might have plans to publish their performing editions (or if they already had. I just couldn't find any info). I did try contacting her, never had a response though so I didn't pursue this project further then. And I don't have time to start editing these pieces now.
Also just to conclude this already lengthy sideline about Jaëll: all other scores of hers in BNF seem to either have serviceable first edition scans or new editions available, except for Les heures, a piece for piano which I worked on some time past. I wanted to mention this so you wouldn't - if by chance you thought to pick that one up for editing - lose your mind working on that whirlwind of blue crayon corrections and ink blottings; it's enough for one person to suffer making sense of the mess that MS was (not a judgment on the music, but I wouldn't say it's anything too special either).
Quotehttps://musescore.com/user/29480707/scores/5205239
Hey everyone,
Let me try and answer everything.
Gareth : I've looked at Luise Adolpha le Beau but unless I'm mistaken her only known orchestral works have been published and recorded (can't find it on the top of my head, but I remember decided there was nothing to work on from her). Maybe some chamber music, I'll have a look. Agathe Backer-Grondahl on the other hand, I knew about her but I didn't see thosee two manuscripts. Thanks !
I'll look into Dora Bright, thanks !
Double A : I'm actually interested in both orchestral and chamber works. I was actually looking for pieces to play with my amateur orchestra and realized it was really hard to get anything written by women. A symphony is a huge project but I'm not alone, I have other "volunteers". Thanks for your work on Mayer, it's amazing ! I'm only a beginner in this game. I'll try to check out the piano trios
Monju : I actually know the person who edited the two Marie Jaëll concertos. Indeed, I don't think they made the scores available but I'd love for them to be accessible because these concertos are so great. I will ask and keep you posted here. Thanks for the info and for your work on "Les Heures"
Marie,
You are no doubt aware that Emilie Mayer's E minor symphony (No. 2, iirc) has been edited and typeset (full score and parts) by the redoubtable Ros Trubger and can be purchased (parts hire only) from her website: www.trubcher.com (http://www.trubcher.com)
Luise Le Beau's mss are in the Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin. Although her piano concerto has been commercially recorded, I don't believe it has been published.
Among her unpublished orchestral works, besides the PC, are a Symphony, a symphonic poem and a Fantaisie for piano & orchestra.
I've seen a few publications of works by Olga von Radecki (1858-1933, born and died in Riga but spent a fair amount of her life as a pianist in Massachusetts) - songs and solo piano pieces, but interesting for all that..., but she's said to have performed a piano quintet (of hers) (and/or also a piano trio which the Drinker Institute page mentions), iirc- and I have been curious for some time whether the work still exists somewhere in manuscript.
Speaking of Jaëll, don't forget her beautiful cello concerto, which would be a welcome addition to a repertoire that has all too few works in it already!
Mayer's symphony no.2 is also available from Ries & Erler as of this year. Still, at least in some countries, the manuscript and work are public domain because of its premiere way back in 1847 March. (The relevant body of law is sometimes referred to, I believe, as editio princeps.)
Isn't it quite absurd that the copyright status of a manuscript piece should hinge on a transient event witnessed by few people that may or may not have taken place 170 years ago? What's the point of copyright protection when you don't know who the right belongs to? I've never been one for blind adherence to the letter of the law, and I'm sure anyone who ever filled in a tax return will agree (?). In my view bad laws deserve to be flouted in the hope (as Gareth recently asserted in another thread) that this will accelerate their repeal or revision.
Hear, hear!
Although not a romantic timewise, the music of Louise Lincoln Kerr is quite romantic in spirit. "Southwestern Impressionism" is the term some of us who know her music like to use. She lived primarily in Scottsdale, Arizona, but played for a time with the Cleveland Orchestra. A driving force in creating the Arizona Opera, the Phoenix Symphony, the Phoenix Chamber Music Society, local hospitals and such. She wrote a great deal of music in many forms - some trivial, some frankly bad, but there are some nice pieces in there, especially for chamber groups. I've gone to the archives and made performable editions of two orchestral works, Indian Lullaby and Enchanted Mesa. Audiences have enjoyed them both and they are well within the ability of amateur/community orchestras. Some 20 years ago I was involved in a concert of her chamber works. We used Louise's handwritten parts, but they could use the computer typesetting treatment.
Her music - all of it - in the Arizona State University archives. All of her children and heirs are long gone. Even the archivists at ASU identify who owns the copyright and just told me to assume it's in public domain.
Hey,
I'm looking into everything you mentioned, thank you all very much.
At the moment I'm looking for something very specific that would have a chance to be played soon in concert if it fits the criteria : we need a rather short piece (~10 min) written by a female russian composer of the romantic era (or style), for orchestra and solo violin. Any ideas ?
How about 'Monolog' (2002) for violin and string orchestra by Alla Pavlova (b.1952) - a very beautiful work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AChRqLTZTY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AChRqLTZTY)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00APBH78W/ref=dm_ws_tlw_trk1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00APBH78W/ref=dm_ws_tlw_trk1)
the main female Russian Romantic actually from that era (Leokadiya Kashperova, 1872-1940) who comes to mind offhand while she wrote a symphony, some piano music and 2 cello sonatas did not write any violin and strings music that I'm aware of offhand.
(Sorry, was speaking from ignorance and looking besides in the wrong Wikipedia category :) Also: Ekaterina Likoshin (fl.1810), Katerina Maier (also fl.1800) (seem to have mostly wrote piano pieces and in Maier's case also a piano concerto?), Nadezhda Rimskaya-Korsakova (1848-1919 - yes, best known as Rimsky-Korsakov's wife, but before her marriage composed a symphonic poem and a few other works that survive in manuscript; perhaps something should be looked up there), Valentina Serova (1846-1924, perhaps again best known for her marriage to Alexander Serov but again a composer, in her case mostly of 4 operas she composed after Serov's death), Yekaterina Sinyavina (d.1784 - apparently only keyboard works survive).)
...which is why I flagged up Alla Pavlova's piece.
I have always been somewhat intrigued by the symphonic poem of Mrs Rimsky-Korsakov, but have made no serious attempt to find the whereabouts of the MS. Nevertheless, the title ("The Bewitched Place") is interesting. Something in the style of Liadov perhaps. Would like to find out.
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Wednesday 31 October 2018, 23:43
I have always been somewhat intrigued by the symphonic poem of Mrs Rimsky-Korsakov, but have made no serious attempt to find the whereabouts of the MS. Nevertheless, the title ("The Bewitched Place") is interesting. Something in the style of Liadov perhaps. Would like to find out.
Yes, it's an intriguing prospect isn't it! But I think she really gave up composing after they married in 1872, according to wiki, completing the orchestration the year afterwards... So I think Liadov's style, which is the next generation as it were, would be too advanced. Perhaps an idiom more like Balakirev or Glinka or R-K himself, if keeping influences limited to Russians?
Quote from: eschiss1 on Friday 05 October 2018, 17:19
Mayer's symphony no.2 is also available from Ries & Erler as of this year. Still, at least in some countries, the manuscript and work are public domain because of its premiere way back in 1847 March. (The relevant body of law is sometimes referred to, I believe, as editio princeps.)
Thank you very much for mentioning my work in connection with Emilie Mayer. However, The symphony that I have published and which was performed in Neubrandenburg in 2012 to celebrate Mayer's bicentenary, is not the symphony referred to above. I have, in fact, published the later symphony in E Major composed in 1853 and referred to as no.6.
A virtual extract is here https://soundcloud.com/rosflute/emilie-mayer-sinfonie-in-e-dur?in=rosflute/sets/virtually-unknown (https://soundcloud.com/rosflute/emilie-mayer-sinfonie-in-e-dur?in=rosflute/sets/virtually-unknown)
There a Berceuse for violin and piano by Ella Adayevskaya (1846-1926) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ella_Adayevskaya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ella_Adayevskaya) - perhaps you could orchestrate it...! It has been recorded once on a CD called Baltikum (Camerata Tallinn) - though the listing itself says it is an arrangement (I don't know of what...)
Thanks everyone. I suspected as much regarding russian composers of the romantic era. However I'm really happy you mentioned Alla Pavlova, because I did not know her and I think this piece could be a good piece if we can convince the orchestra that it's worth it to rent the parts.
Glad to be of help.
It is a most attractive work.
I just wanted to add one more name: Helen C. Crane. Born in New York in 1868 she disappeared from the historical record after about 1930 and had definitely died by 1944. Between 1898 and 1908 she had about a dozen works (piano pieces, songs, instrumental pieces) published in Germany and continued to compose up through the late 1920s. The published Piano Trio from 1907 is at IMSLP (https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Crane,_Helen_C.). A list of her works with opus (https://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_Helen_C._Crane) is also there (afraid I never got around to listing all those without opus). All of her surviving manuscripts are in the New York Public Library (http://archives.nypl.org/mus/20224). Included among those are a concert overture, 2 symphonic poems, a serenade for orchestra, 2 suites for orchestra, and 2 symphonies.