I'm sure this is news only to me, but Assenov in this PDF worklist (http://opus.kobv.de/tuberlin/volltexte/2009/2195/pdf/assenov_bojan.pdf) for Moszkowski, on pages 359-360, describes a sizable 1873 D minor symphony by Moszkowski in manuscript. (The next pages are devoted to the B minor concerto. Not sure when this dissertation was written- will try to find out in a bit, when my computer is less jammed.) If I am reading the German right, it looks like the work is complete - which doesn't mean that the symphony score is readable. Does anyone know the situation with this piece? ...
Didn't he write a Symphony on Joan of Arc, or is that a different piece?
Well, Joan of Arc/ Johanna etc./ -- op.19 is a 4-movement symphonic poem written around 1875 and published a few years later by Hainauer of Breslau; what I see listed from 1872-3 mentioned in the same PDF (pp 359-60), unpublished, is a 4-movement (hrm... the cover as he describes it says D-moll, the tempo indications he gives say Maestoso in C-major, Scherzo in F major, Larghetto in B-flat major, Finale Presto non tanto C major... typo somewhere or other? ... probably the first and last movements are wrong, since the inner movements are normal for a D minor symphony...) - symphony.
No, from the PDF it's quite clearly a totally different work.
Well, a MS score of 168 pages appears to be in the Bibliotheque Nationale. I can't make out whether it is complete or not.
The PDF document lists the Symphony as having 168 pages. Very interesting, surely?
And gives the ref. BnF (Bibliotheque Nationale de France).
Aha! Can a copy be ordered, Gareth?
50's Grove sez there is a symphony...... 1980 Grove omits it.....
J
I believe the term is "hiding in plain sight". :)
I've never ordered from the BnF, but I'm sure it's possible. Might be expensive.
Right - thanks, Gareth. Wonder if anyone's got hold of it...?
The Bnf are not so straightforward as others libraries from what I have heard from others. They respond best to personal visits and have been known to be a little obstructive.
I know someone who goes in there from time to time so I will ask him. I would try myself, but my silly French accent would probably get me thrown out.
Thal
Not surprising - they are, after all, French. I love France and the French but they are not famed for their helpfulness to les Anglais, especially to those of us whose French is less than fluent. And French bureaucrats... well, what can I say...?
Do the initials DKW mean anything to you? Perhaps Cameo can come to the rescue.
Quote from: JimL on Thursday 31 May 2012, 14:36
Do the initials DKW mean anything to you? Perhaps Cameo can come to the rescue.
Why? How? DKW lives an awful long way from Paris...
I'm sorry. I thought he lived in the countryside near Paris. Why? A) Well, he probably speaks French better than Gareth, and B) however far he lives from Paris, at least he doesn't have to take a train underwater to get there. Also, C) he has a record label which records unsung symphonies, amongst other things. As far as how, well, maybe he already has a library card for the BNF, non?
David's French is almost as bad as mine!
I'm starting to see why he lives in the French boonies! ;D
Wow ... what an interesting detour from the Moszkowski Symphony.. Now back to the point-at-tissue you silly twisted boy(s)! "Sapristi bombpetts!" Moriarty; What about that early Piano concerto ?
Didn't we discuss the early Moszkowski piano concerto before? I'm sure I read something about the manuscript being discovered on this forum?
I do hope someone records the Symphony!
Meanwhile, back at the ranch - er, Symphony...
A) We need a guy in France. Preferably Paris. B) He needs access to these scores. Actually, I believe the PC is in other hands already, and that's another thread anyway, like the man says. C) He needs to get whatever authorization is necessary to get a copy of the symphony to whoever can determine if the edition in the BNF is up to performance standards and get it performed and recorded. D) His French must be impeccable. ;)
Qui est-ce, ce type? Je ne le connais pas!
Moi non plus. C'est depressant! :(
Ça ne doit pas être trop difficile, et qu'est-ce que j'y gagne ?!!
Quote from: JimL on Thursday 31 May 2012, 20:01
C'est depressant! :(
I think you mean 'déprimant'! Otherwise you're into depressant drugs or alcohol...
Quote from: nigelkeay on Thursday 31 May 2012, 20:10
...et qu'est-ce que j'y gagne ?!!
What's in it for you? Maybe a recording of the Symphony...
Believe you me, Nigel, if you expedite a recording you're at least entitled to a free CD!
Don't you believe it -- and I speak from personal experience! :o
I would expect that getting a copy of the symphony would be almost as difficult as the mentioned early piano concerto. The BnF would only allow photographs to be taken, so some poor sod has to now construct performance material from 500 odd barrelled photos of variable quality. Decoding the Rosetta Stone was probably easier.
All libraries are different in allowing access to their holdings, but the French Libraries seem to be slightly harder work than most. There is a library in the South of France that I approached a couple of years ago that seems to think they hold copyright on everything from Homer onwards.
Thal
QuoteDon't you believe it -- and I speak from personal experience!
I know exactly what you mean!
My wife tells me that one needs proof of being a researcher to get access to certain rooms at the Bnf, I'd probably be classified as riffraff, she on the other hand would probably have a much better chance as a Maitre de Conférence (in English, but has keen interest in music as violinist).
Okay, send the wife. You provide the cloak and dagger. ;) Maybe she can be allowed to make a copy. Just our dumb luck that the damn symphony is guarded by Cerberus!
Hey, maybe we could make an offer the Library Director (or whatever his title is) couldn't refuse! :)
Quote from: JimL on Friday 01 June 2012, 00:29
Hey, maybe we could make an offer the Library Director (or whatever his title is) couldn't refuse! :)
Hmmm. It would have to be in comprehensible French...
Bien vrai qu'ça, donc pas moi :(
Quote from: thalbergmad on Thursday 31 May 2012, 20:51
...seems to think they hold copyright on everything from Homer onwards.
I've just been looking at the Bnf site; there's a commercial use license for things that have gone out of copyright ("hors droit").
Quote from: nigelkeay on Friday 01 June 2012, 09:08
Quote from: thalbergmad on Thursday 31 May 2012, 20:51
...seems to think they hold copyright on everything from Homer onwards.
I've just been looking at the Bnf site; there's a commercial use license for things that have gone out of copyright ("hors droit").
In other words, a label would have to come a-courtin' with hat in hand and comprehensible French. Right?
Seems there's certainly a question or two to ask. I ended up looking at this doc: http://www.bnf.fr/documents/autorisation_usage_fr.pdf (http://www.bnf.fr/documents/autorisation_usage_fr.pdf) Perhaps it would be considered a "produit dérivé"? There's an email address to write to there, in any case.
A good start. Let's see what we can turn up.
I thought I'd have a look on the web to find out a bit more about Moszkowski so started with the wikipedia page. This uncovered a rather quirky coincidence: In Paris, he lived on the rue Blanche, and in the summer he rented a villa owned by Henri Murger. That sentence has replicated itself onto dozens of other sites. I live about a 100 metres from a rue Henri Murger, so for a moment thought that this might have been where the villa outside Paris once was, but celebrated figures often ended up with streets named after them in several districts. There's another rue Henri Murger in the 19th district but that's all. In fact it's certain that the villa was at Bourron-Marlotte (http://www.apophtegme.com/ARTS/heures.htm) (rue Murger), out near Fontainebleau. Moszkowski is mentioned on that page. At least I know about Henri Murger now (& the la Boheme connection)...
I was going to post an image of the article on Moszkowski from the 1911 Grove Dictionary but as you might have read in another thread, can't figure out how to add an image file. Well, the simple upshot is, they list quite a few works - no symphony......
Jerry
I'm not asking if there is one- according to a fairly extensive worklist (see PDF linked to at top of thread) there's a manuscript at a French library (though there may be some questions about completeness that I can't address lacking - for one thing - reading comprehension re PDF... - for another - access to manuscript. But if access can be had eventually to the manuscript and someone somewhere has enough interest, and it's sufficiently readable for the purpose, that might be a start. That's a lot of ifs.
I too have been wondering about the Symphony's key - in the first edition of Grove and in an article by Moszkowski quoted in Bojan Assenov's dissertation, he mentions having written two symphonies in his youth - one must be the one in C major (assuming the key is correct) that is in the Bibliotheque Nationale and the other one must be in D minor, by a process of elimination! My guess is that Moszkowski destroyed the D minor Symphony (or its whereabouts are unknown - perhaps it was never finished and/or orchestrated?) and put the C major one in a binding originally meant for the "Symphonie in D-moll" in a confusing piece of recycling (he was none too well-off in his student days, evidently). Any thoughts on this?
... that is interesting- though it shows a (not unusual, I know) lack of judgment on the dissertation's author's part to show no curiosity, caveats, etc. and just report . Odd. Hrm.
Maybe so, but the fact that the Larghetto is in B-flat Major would indicate that the symphony might be the D minor, since that isn't so distant a key from D minor than it is from C Major. Although it isn't out of the question (see Rufinatscha's 5th). Maybe the symphony in the library is a conflation of the two.
or for that matter Schubert's 2nd (B-flat major, but C minor scherzo (yes, yes, I know, that's the relative minor of the slow movement...) )...
or Dvorak's 3rd (wt(ishere) is the slow movement doing in 7f (C-sharp) minor? and shouldn't the finale work its way back -from- it (or in some way take advantage of it...)? not his most convincing moment- and I love Dvorak.)
or other examples. True... one awaits hopeful eventual clarification.
I thought the 3rd movement of Schubert's 2nd was a minuetto, not a scherzo. In fact, it is. Are you sure it's not in G minor?
Downloading the 1884 Brahms-edited (not first edition) score from IMSLP, you're right, it's a Menuetto (blasted hybrid non-word, but not Schubert's fault) - Allegro vivace. But yes, it's in C minor, the supertonic key of the symphony.
(Actually, that might have -been- its first edition. My bad. Huh! Not the only such case of course of a work being edited-and-FE. )
Meanwhile, getting back to Moszkowski...
I have emailed Bojan Assenov about the symphony - I'll let you know what he says in due course!
Thanks!
Well Bojan has replied to my email and thanks to him we can now clear up a couple of things! I quote his replies verbatim:
Q: Is there only one symphony in the BNF?
A: "Yes, there is only this one. With the second symphony in the Biographical Sketch he most probably meant his Symphonic Poem "Johanna d'Arc MoszWV 140" he wrote in Berlin in the years 1875-1876. There is no hint in the diaries or any other source that suggests he wrote a second symphony while he was working on the symphonic poem. Moszkowski might also have had the Ouverture D-Dur MoszWV 145 in his mind. " [Moszkowski sometimes referred to Johanna d'Arc as a symphony in his correspondence- JP]
Q: Are the 1st and 4th movements really in C major?
A: "As my research was done a few years ago, I cannot enlighten you about this very obvious question by memory. I do not believe I made a mistake or a wrong analysis - although my time was limited and the rules of the BNF about copying music quite strict. The deciphered diaries and notes of Moszkowski are almost completely included in the dissertation. But being placed in the front row of the librarian with cameras on my back - there was no chance to copy at least a few bars with pencil for the incipits I would have really liked to have included. Maybe the forum´s hypothesis about the wrong cover is right - it was a similar problem with the piano concerto that was labeled op. 6. A lack of interest of bringing light into this matter seems to be mostly on the composers part. Moszkowski was not keen to have this music published. How these documents came into the hand of Madame Suzanne Redon was not revealed (see page 475)."
Q: Is it performable and publishable?
A: "A fantastic project to have this works recorded! Detailed research of the musical material in the BNF and a performance should be possible and very interesting. I remember the works being complete (only scores, no instrument parts). As you discussed it would be helpful to have a far-reaching permission of a research institution and also a Librarian that supports this project."
So there you go. A visit to the BNF in search of a friendly librarian seems to be in order!
Oh I do hope this symphony is recordable:) Is Joan of Arc an opera?; i love this composer; his bitterweet combination of joy and sadness,; he is one of the (relatively) unknowns with his own discernible style and he writes exquisitely for the piano; i know there are some here(lol) who think him saccharine, but if it moves me , it moves me (much as SOME, not all, Eric Coates, for example): Violin Concerto, Piano Concerto, the Ballade for violin and orchestra(both on Hyperion) and most of the piano works; all gorgeous(I especially recommend, again "Hommage to Schumann " for piano which out-Schumanns Schumann in bitter-sweet extrovert brilliance, especially at the end); what a clever affectionate hommage; and this man died in penury, with poor estimate of his own worth as a composer he allegedly said his piano concerto was only fit for raising the level of piano stool :(. Field, Chopin and Moszkowski, three of the most idiomatic composers for the piano; oh and i have 2 of his orchestral suites(one on Louisvillle Orchestra LP) and they are masterly in orchestration, so NOT just a piano composer.
Hrm? No, his Joan of Arc- to my knowledge- is a symphonic poem. The score is at IMSLP. (2018 belated edit: er, egg on my face. Should have looked. The 2-piano _arrangement_ is at IMSLP...)
Quote from: Steve B on Friday 13 July 2012, 14:05
I love this composer; his bittersweet combination of joy and sadness,; he is one of the (relatively) unknowns with his own discernible style and he writes exquisitely for the piano; I know there are some here(lol) who think him saccharine, but if it moves me , it moves me (much as SOME, not all, Eric Coates, for example): ... with poor estimate of his own worth as a composer he allegedly said his piano concerto was only fit for raising the level of piano stool(:). Field, Chopin and Moszkowski, three of the most idiomatic composers for the piano;
I do
so agree with you, Steve. I think the Piano Concerto is not only absolutely gorgeous but the structure is innovative and the whole thing is just so well crafted. And you are so right when you refer to Eric Coates; the main theme of the finale of Moszkowski's Piano Concerto always reminded me of someone else but I never could put my finger on it but you just did, possibly unintentionally -- it's just like one of those quick marches by Coates and none the worse for that, in my book!
My favorite piano concerto...... 8) 8) ::)
Jerry
Joan of Arc, Op19 is a symphonic poem in four movements (Moszkowski sometimes called it a symphony) His only opera is "Boabdil, der letzte Maurenkönig" and he also wrote a ballet "Laurin". Now that's a recording project!
Wow, John; how can we get these recorded?Jerry, your favourite PC :P :) ;) :-*; wow; one of mine too; which recording(s)do u favour?: I think i have them all.Lionel, thanks; is cyclic form used in the PC have u noticed?; and i think the thing in common between Coates and Moszkowski is that beautiful, as i have said, bittersweet poignancy of life is not unfraught with difficulties at times but lets try and go on as best and joyfully as we can(but with perhaps regret and sadness having the last word, sort of hidden underneath the ostensible joy). One movement of sheer sadness(?loss?regret for happier times?; i realise at least SOME of this is my subjective interpretation/projection)is the slow movt of the VC; i have written about before the heartstopping moment in the middle; where the drums just beat and then my favourite melody in all music comes back; this is deep music , certainly at this point, IMHO. Also, re-listened to some miscellaneous piano solo stuff: how exquisite and again poignant. I am also thinking of the , again, ostensibly, "upbeat" section of Coates' "Saxo Rhapsody"- almost manic in its STRIVING(sic!) to be happy but ending up sinking back into the forlorn, "it must be so" introductory material.As is frequent with music-that being its great strength over most of the other arts-it is BEYOND?ABOVE helpless VERBAL attempts at description, even more than approximatizing nomenclature(via tempo markings etc and so called expressive marks, like dynamics, phrasing, even rubato); it is -contentious word, i know!- metaphysical; there is a significant amount of this quintessentially musical unkowability and inability to put into words, in both Coates and Moszkowski's works.Steve
Quote from: Steve B on Saturday 14 July 2012, 18:17
is cyclic form used in the PC have u noticed?
Steve
Yes, Steve, and used with considerable subtlety! I like the way Moszkowski often takes the listener in unexpected directions but his sense of architecture is so secure that the transitions are invariably completely convincing. And now I must listen to the violin concerto again!
Two favorites - the old Ponti recording - I think we often like the first interpretation of what we hear.
The second is by Neil O'doan and if you haven't listened to this one, go here:
http://beemp3.com/download.php?file=5085280&song=Moszkowski+-+Piano+Concerto+in+E+major+op.59+-+II.+Andante%2C+III.+Scherzo+%26amp%3B+Vivace (http://beemp3.com/download.php?file=5085280&song=Moszkowski+-+Piano+Concerto+in+E+major+op.59+-+II.+Andante%2C+III.+Scherzo+%26amp%3B+Vivace)
Link to the Piano Concerto is dead - any chance of a re-upload?
Thanks.
David
I corrected the link in the above post. You may have to do a little digging there to find the first movement but I think it's relatively easy to find. Good luck and enjoy. Sorry for the bother.
Jerry
Lionel, thanks; I will listen again(to the PC) to see how the themes, however rhizomically, relate:)
Jerfilm, I was unaware of this recording :I shall listen now; thanks. Steve
Jerfilm, i just tried the link; it said "access denied"; "malicious link/material"; this was kaspersky!Steve. Is it on any other download site/Utube?
Thanks steve. p.s said this on movement 1
Sorry about that. Funny it works for me. However, here's a site you can download it from:
http://pianosociety.com/cms/index.php?section=212 (http://pianosociety.com/cms/index.php?section=212)
Right click on each movement and then pick: Save Target As and you will get the download. Lucky folks in Seattle who got to hear this concert....... :-\ And judging from the applause at the end, they thought so too.....
I also really like his performance of Rachmaninoff's First Piano Concerto which he takes at a slightly slower speed, at least in the first movement with great effect, I think.
Enjoy
Jerry
Quote from: Steve B on Sunday 15 July 2012, 16:39
Lionel, thanks; I will listen again(to the PC) to see how the themes, however rhizomically, relate:)
Jerfilm, I was unaware of this recording :I shall listen now; thanks. Steve
The PC (actually now the
2nd PC) is quite the cyclic work. Besides the reminiscence of the slow movement to which it is linked before the coda of the scherzo (a la Raff's
Im Walde Symphony) the first theme of movement I recurs right at the end of the finale (a la Brahms' 3rd Symphony). There doesn't seem to be any development or transformation of the materials from movement to movement, though.
Quote from: JimL on Sunday 15 July 2012, 17:21
There doesn't seem to be any development or transformation of the materials from movement to movement, though.
There are motivic relationships between the movements -- the Scherzo's principal subject is derived from the passage immediately after letter D (Peters full score) in the slow movement (although it's not immediately apparent because of the great difference in the speeds, of course).
I've been able to download O'Doan's performance from a link from IMSLP, I think... ah yes. The mp3s have been uploaded there, in fact (with full credit to pianist and orchestra of course) as with some other Pandora Records items.
Quote from: Lionel Harrsion on Sunday 15 July 2012, 17:45
Quote from: JimL on Sunday 15 July 2012, 17:21
There doesn't seem to be any development or transformation of the materials from movement to movement, though.
There are motivic relationships between the movements -- the Scherzo's principal subject is derived from the passage immediately after letter D (Peters full score) in the slow movement (although it's not immediately apparent because of the great difference in the speeds, of course).
Ah, good catch, Lionel. That had escaped me. Without knowing the letters in the score, I think I know exactly the theme you're talking about.
It's available here (http://imslp.org/wiki/Piano_Concerto,_Op.59_%28Moszkowski,_Moritz%29), Jim.
Thanks. Yup, that's the theme I thought you were talking about. BTW, that movement listing is inaccurate. The Scherzo is also in C-sharp minor, like the Andante. Hence the ending in D-flat Major (the enharmonic equivalent of C-sharp Major). The movement listing has it as being in E Major.
Quote from: JimL on Sunday 15 July 2012, 22:28
Thanks. Yup, that's the theme I thought you were talking about. BTW, that movement listing is inaccurate.
You're welcome, Jim. I had noticed that listing inaccuracy although, to be honest, I seldom bother to look at such things since they're wrong almost as often as they're right. You can't even trust publishers' catalogues to get movement listings correct!
If something's inaccurate @ IMSLP, I'm more than a bit sleepy, and not tracking (pun...ok, pun actually sort of intended...) right now (or I'd do so myself instanter) but one thing about the site is that it's not -that- hard to fix, apologies for my attitude... and thanks in advance for so doing...
Quote from: eschiss1 on Monday 16 July 2012, 04:26
If something's inaccurate @ IMSLP, I'm more than a bit sleepy, and not tracking (pun...ok, pun actually sort of intended...) right now (or I'd do so myself instanter) but one thing about the site is that it's not -that- hard to fix, apologies for my attitude... and thanks in advance for so doing...
Sorry if my words offended. I think IMSLP is a wonderful resource and I wasn't having a dig at it specifically -- mine was just a general observation that it's maybe unwise to rely on catatlogues, liner notes and so forth for accuracy in such matters. Anyhow back to Moszkowski...
Not offended and I apologize for my sharp reaction.
It often deserves quite a few digs anyway- I say this as an admin and a fan and as an editor who slips up more than just a bit...- and agreed- and yes, I'd have to wonder too why someone with the score to hand would make such a mistake. It's not the first time on the site. (Viz.: Dussek sonatas- very few, not most all, have 3 movements... anyway. Right. Back to Moszkowski.
But yes, hoping that something will come of this (has anyone here already contacted BNF? I forget.) and looking forward to, if it does / when it does.
(...
has there even been a recording of the Jeanne d'Arc symphonic poem? At least that exists in published score, from which parts could presumably be extracted given time and patience etc. ... maybe the parts are already somewhere. I don't see a recording, though. Maybe not commercially viable, as usual, unless coupled with an orchestration of Etincelles... erm... er.)
Any updates regarding the Symphony?
I noticed that when everyone discussed the excellent Piano Concerto no one mentioned the recording by David Bar-Illan. This is in my opinion the definitive version... I know..... definitive is a controversial word but when you listen to this particular recording everything else pales in comparison. The 1st and 4th movement especially will have you sit up and take notice.. NO longer the Moszkowski the Salon composer who wrote one [or two] piano Concerto(s) but a force to be reckoned in league with Scharwenka; And anyone who says Moszkowski is a miniaturist will eat his own words!! ;D Hope I haven't offended anyone! :D
Quote from: FBerwald on Saturday 01 June 2013, 17:51
I noticed that when everyone discussed the excellent Piano Concerto no one mentioned the recording by David Bar-Illan. This is in my opinion the definitive version... I know..... definitive is a controversial word but when you listen to this particular recording everything else pales in comparison.
Good to have this opinion. I'd always thought Lane pretty well definitive - and comparing Bar-Illan on YouTube with the Hyperion performance reveals a rather murkier orchestral sound, so I'm not convinced. Another problem is that the recording mentioned isn't exactly easy to get hold of, so I'll be sticking with Lane.
I understand your qualms but I find the pianism stunning. Lane sounds [sorry to say this] limpid and petite next to Bar-Illan. The score is not handled with kid gloves as if they feel Moszkowski needs special reading to make a convincing argument, rather a Moszkowski that needs no apologies and thats what I like best about it. Maybe the youtube sound is bad!! :(
Still doesn't solve the problem of non-availability.
I also wholeheartedly would endorse Bar-Illan's performance as the most exciting of this now quite well-represented concerto! I remember that when Hyperion commenced the Romantic Concerto series with Lane, I was a little disappointed personally with the end product, also with regards to the Paderewski (Earl Wild is the ONLY version IMHO!). Both Bar-Illan and Wild give these two concerti the best possible opportunity to shine in all their brilliance and are both well-supported by their respective orchestras. However, I certainly would be more than happy to hear Lane in Moszkowski's Op3 (Op6?) - sooner rather than later!
I have emailed Audiofon, the label which released Bar-Illan's recording. We'll see what transpires...
Any news reg. the symphonies? Since we now have a performance of the long lost 1st concerto...... :)
BNF has now digitized the manuscript of the symphony which is available online (http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53069256p).
Thanks. It'll be interesting to read what others more expert than I make of it...
Thanks!
It seems to have a rather long scherzo. From what I can tell the movements are:
I. Maestoso - Allegro appassionato (D minor)
II. Scherzo: Vivo (F Major)
III. Larghetto (B-flat Major)
IV. Finale: Presto non tanto (D minor - Major)
How fantastic to have the score to this symphony. This interests me greatly, and Moszkowski is way overdue for a recording of his orchestral works. I'd love to do this, and will see if I can interest some producers.
Oh, well done!
Thanks, minacciosa. Let's hope your words fall on receptive ears.
Any updates reg. the Symphony - Has anyone read the score?
I have just acquired copy of the Moszkowski symphony from the BNF if anyone is still interested.
Yes.
Moi aussi.
Since this thread has been revived I must offer belated apologies. Way back in 2012 Eric wrote:
Quotehas there even been a recording of the Jeanne d'Arc symphonic poem? At least that exists in published score, from which parts could presumably be extracted given time and patience etc. ... maybe the parts are already somewhere. I don't see a recording, though. Maybe not commercially viable, as usual, unless coupled with an orchestration of Etincelles... erm... er.)
I meant to point out at the time that the orchestral parts for the Jeanne d'Arc symphonic poem (or "symphony" as I believe the composer sometimes called it) are, not surprisingly, at Fleisher. The catalog record at Fleisher gives 45mins as the playing time, but I don't know whether this is based on an actual performance at sometime, or just a guess.
Thank you all for this discussion and linking the score. It's a shame Moszkowski wasn't interested getting it published back in the day.
Here's a simple computerized midi of the first movement I created. It runs some eleven minutes (including a repeated exposition). My apologies for any mistakes in transcription. It's best to listen while following the score to better grasp the full range of dynamics of the piece.
I've only briefly glanced through the rest of the score, but even from this example there shouldn't be any doubt this Symphony stands long overdue its proper revival and recording. Was it ever performed in Moszkowski's time?
Dropbox link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ps1u8ywmtd3os53/Moszkowski%20Symphony%20-%20I.%20Maestoso.mid?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ps1u8ywmtd3os53/Moszkowski%20Symphony%20-%20I.%20Maestoso.mid?dl=0)
The MIDI, much as I dislike them generally, certainly whets the appetite. Thanks for making it available.
Would anyone care to characterise the style?
Filtered through the fog of the MIDI sound it comes across as a thorough-going Germanic opening movement, with strong and memorable material and harmonically not too adventurous for its time. Beyond that I wouldn't go.
I'll agree with Mark - memorable material (very memorable if played by an actual Orchestra). Thank you Monju for giving us the 1st snippet of this symphony.
I'll second any enterprising conductors to champion this symphony! The manuscript even with its usual slips of pen and the occasional missing accidental is very tidy; any professional editor should be happy to spin a typeset edition from such a legible score. (If the length won't scare them.)
I agree this material presents a fresh sample of the Moszkowski spirit - playful but stern, and quite memorable. Intricacies being hard to notice through midi sound - but after working on this it's impossible to fail to mention his effective orchestration. An actual performance should highlight this fact in its best light. I'm glad the midi has been of atleast some use as a simple starting point of reference for this work.
The Fleisher copy is printed. The score was, according to the marc record at Fleisher published by Julius Hainauer, Breslau, and G.Schirmer, New York. Parts also printed, apart from the harp which is MS. Full printed scores of this work (316pp) can be found in a number of European libraries and the Wissenschaftliche Stadtbibliothek, Mainz has also a set of parts.
What made you think Moszkowski had not published the work?
A two-piano arrangement by the composer was published by Augener.
Interesting. What Fleisher copy are you talking about? Fleisher doesn't HAVE a copy. (Do they???) (This is not the Joan of Arc symphonic poem- which is available at IMSLP in that Augener reduction though also unrecorded. It's from 1876 and was published about 1878.)
(Ok, who's been sneaking copies off to Fleisher again? Fess up.)
also, Jean d'Arc op.19 is -very- E major (see the 1879 Hainauer reduction @ IMSLP), not D minor :) (which the symphony clearly is, see the downloadable manuscript linked above from BNF.)
So sorry. Apologies. I thought we were talking about the Joan of Arc "symphony". Must pay more attention.
I copied the exposition in Sibelius and ran it through NotePerformer (the most realistic VST I can access) and this is the result: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QBwQbzh0_vWlJ8dxcxesa2G6r9ltEiWD
Quote from: Monju on Tuesday 01 May 2018, 12:27
Here's a simple computerized midi of the first movement I created. It runs some eleven minutes (including a repeated exposition). My apologies for any mistakes in transcription. It's best to listen while following the score to better grasp the full range of dynamics of the piece.
Ah someone already made one. Are you transcribing the other movements?
I'm only working on the Larghetto :) No plans for the other movements.
I wanted to create a simple demonstration quickly, omitting most dynamics (and little time spared pondering misspelled notes, spotty handwriting at places). Yours sounds more like the piece actually will. Thanks for also making it available!
Thank you in earnest. From experience (mostly with chamber music and occasionally reductions of orchestral works, in my case) it's _hard_ to do that (and I haven't used MIDI-creation programs in years... well, ok, I gather Lilypond can do so, but haven't really worked out how, except for, iirc, one semi-successful something.)
Alright I'm gonna try to work on the Scherzo. I'll post the recording once I'm done
Hello to all. A soundfont performance doesn't do any justice to the 3rd movement... scored for Winds, 2 Horns and Strings (rest of Brass + Percussion tacet), in 12/8 time. It's been very difficult to create a convincing recording. It's best again to listen following the manuscript - starting from page 91 - to realize the voicing and dynamics.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5eqk9zoaz6ey5bm/Moszkowski%20Symphony%20-%20Larghetto%20%28computerized%29.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/5eqk9zoaz6ey5bm/Moszkowski%20Symphony%20-%20Larghetto%20%28computerized%29.mp3?dl=0)
I'm going to tidy up a proper score and post it later this week or next week if I have time.
I have now alerted Simon Perry at Hyperion concerning this symphony - which, IMHO, certainly needs to be performed and recorded. Thanks in part to the easy availability of the MS full score, and the computerised realization efforts of those here, he has promised to bring this to the attention of conductors who would be best placed to give the work proper appraisal, and if the response is positive, to consider taking the matter further! We just have to now sit back and hope........!
Brilliant, Martin. I wonder of the "Joan of Arc symphony" would be a suitable coupling.
The "Joan of Arc" symphony would, of course, be the most suitable, but the two symphonies together would surely exceed the playing time for one CD - unless a double album (are we pushing our luck here!) was a possibility, which would then offer even more space for perhaps at least one of the orchestral suites (Op39, Op47 or Op79)! Anyway, let's see what happens - and keep fingers crossed!
That's really good progress. Thank you to all of those involved.
Or if one's really pushing one's luck, I wonder if the Moszkowski D minor symphony and Grimm's symphony in D minor (or another substantial, serious, never-recorded symphony from the mid-19th century or so) would be an appropriate coupling and fill out sufficient of a 80-minute disc? (Unlike some reviewers, with content like that (hopefully excellently recorded and performed of course), I would not complain that it were "merely" 60 minutes instead of the 79.5+ they seem to also request as a minimum :D )
Do we have an estimated performance time for the symphony, please?
I think it's pushing our luck to expect a conductor to take on Grimm's Symphony as well as the Moszkowski.
QuoteDo we have an estimated performance time for the symphony, please?
1st Mvt: After a brief Maestoso opening rest marked Allegro appassionato. About some 12-14 minutes at most, exposition repeat included.
2nd Mvt: vesteel was working on the Scherzo, maybe he could give an estimate?
3rd Mvt: Larghetto generally at 66 bpm was around 9 minutes.
4th Mvt: Haven't examined much of the music itself, but a simple calculation - 321 bars (4/4 time) marked Presto non tanto, last 322-348 marked Più mosso - about 9-10 minutes?
Thank you very much. So we are probably looking at 40+ mins.
Fleisher gives the running time of the "Joan of Arc" symphony as 45 mins, though whether this is based on an actual performance or guesswork I don't know. Either way, it would be difficult to get both works on one disk. So one of the suites might be a more viable option.
The Scherzo should be around 7-8 minutes using the tempo I gave (~160 BPM) because in Sibelius the speed of Allegro and Vivo/Vivace are the same (120 BPM) which is slow
As one can tell from assignments of tempo markings with metronome numbers in scores they depend too on time signatures among other things :)
I finished the Scherzo https://drive.google.com/open?id=1y46fjZyDCbZB1EJaQ6S7Y8vPHpiO9s3X duration is 8 minutes. I can't say if it's 100% accurate tho
Reading the score while listening might help if the audio is not clear enough
also to Monju: Can I get at least the xml file (or better, a sib file) of the midis you made? Thanks
Love the music. Trying to get a handle on the overall style. Anyone?
Is there a possibility that someone might be able to post the whole symphony so that it can be auditioned in one go?
QuoteCan I get at least the xml file (or better, a sib file) of the midis you made? Thanks
I wrote the Larghetto in Musescore so no .sib files unfortunately. Hope you can make use of the .xml files. (The midi file has some incorrectly assigned instruments due to conversion from Musescore data but is otherwise ok)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fi7kkg0bq7dwpv2/larghetto%20xml.mxl?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/fi7kkg0bq7dwpv2/larghetto%20xml.mxl?dl=0)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9jwgok9fqu1uo22/larghetto%20musicxml.musicxml?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/9jwgok9fqu1uo22/larghetto%20musicxml.musicxml?dl=0)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ohdyst2sr9tur7/larghetto%20midi.mid?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ohdyst2sr9tur7/larghetto%20midi.mid?dl=0)
The 1st movement midi I wrote in NWC since I find it very easy and fast to input notes in. The program is no use for making properly typeset or formatted scores but atleast has some use. Limited support for exporting to .xml unfortunately too - I doubt the .xml conversion is very accurate. In case you have any use for the .nwc file it's here too:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ze2frt9k7x2lv92/Moszkowski%20-%20Symphony%20first%20movement%20nwc.nwc?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ze2frt9k7x2lv92/Moszkowski%20-%20Symphony%20first%20movement%20nwc.nwc?dl=0)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5xncpv1ofgdafgl/Moszkowski%20-%20symphony%20first%20movement%2C%2C%20nwc%20xml.xml?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/5xncpv1ofgdafgl/Moszkowski%20-%20symphony%20first%20movement%2C%2C%20nwc%20xml.xml?dl=0)
It would be great if you can find use for these files, like Alan Howe is saying perhaps to create a consistent, full computerized 'recording' in due time? :)
By the way.... besides the MS, does the library also have the instrument parts? Or are they lost and have to be created?
I forget, was there ever even a performance? There might not even be instrumental parts.
It gets a mention in symetrie's preface to the Op.3 Piano Concerto score: "... The first performance of the piano concerto took place on Saturday, 27 February 1875, under the direction of Ludwig von Brenner and with the composer at the piano. The Symphony in D minor (MoszWV 146) and the Caprice op. 4 (MoszWV 3) were also on the program. ..."
Doh, I should've read the early posts in this thread more carefully. Bojan Assenov had confirmed that BnF only has the complete score, no parts.
Oh right, sorry-- Assenov p.28: "Ein anderer Kopist namens Gräsemann produzierte die Stimmen zur Symphonie d-Moll MoszWV 146, welche ebenfalls auf dem Programm stand." Not sure if this helps us find it, but.. yes. Thanks. Sorry!!
(Assenov p.360 has "Sonnabend, 17. Januar [1875] [...] Dann begann die Orchesterklasse u. zwar mit meiner Symphonie. (Finale.) Es wurde 2mal gespielt und klang ganz erträglich." - so 17 January, just the finale, source: Moszkowski's Tagebuch. No mention in there I can see offhand of a complete performance on the 27th, but perhaps it's mentioned elsewhere eg a published journal. There's also a piano quintet Mos 136 mentioned on p.8, hrm.. ok, I want to look into that if only to find out it's lost (or not) but... er...) (Ah. Incomplete, 3 movements, or something.)
The whole thing is done :D Total time is 38 minutes. The 1st movement is the longest (13 mins) while the other three are less than 10 minutes long.
Here's the 4 movements in zip form:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yKvUTWoTzCcQkSmETXVnmQ8My1dOHJ_r/view
For sure my transcription isn't 100% accurate. I need to guess nearly half the dynamics (since it sounds strange for the strings to be playing pp while the winds in ff) and I might've misplaced some notes but I think the final render sounds fine. Also thank you Monju for help on the 1st and 3rd movements! It saved me some time.
I also made a score video of it: https://youtu.be/XR65lHPvzE8
Thank you for this, vesteel - it's quite an achievement. I'm looking forward to listening.
Vesteel, I'm hugely impressed. By your work, obviously, but I hope you'll allow me to be actually blown over by Moszkowski's symphony itself. It's a great piece, which makes its fate up to now all the more unjust. But I'm very glad to have heard it now. The fact that Sibelius renderings have gotten so much better lately helps, of course. It's still somewhat artificial, but by now one can actually listen to the music without being distracted continually.
Edit: Vesteel, I've sent you a DM.
I'm late to reply this, but your computerization is really impressive, vesteel! Listened to the whole thing earlier - great!
I couldn't help but notice second half of the 1st movement has plenty incorrect notes - most likely stemming from my lacking source files that I had provided, sorry for that. My .xml export also seems to have messed rhythms in a few bars in middle of Larghetto, in the section with all the TS changes. Fantastic work, especially the Finale sounds perfect in this rendition.
And I completely forgot to upload the sheet music of the Larghetto, silly me. It was all but done sitting in my computer. Here we are...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h5h2sd9cki5mh60/Moszkowski%20Symphony%20in%20D%20-%20III%20Larghetto.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/h5h2sd9cki5mh60/Moszkowski%20Symphony%20in%20D%20-%20III%20Larghetto.pdf?dl=0)
I see the Johanna D'Arco Symphony/Symphonic Poem is on its way from Toccata Classics, and this looks likely to be a series of Moszkowski Orchestral Music CDs.
https://toccataclassics.com/pipeline/ (https://toccataclassics.com/pipeline/)
Please see this thread for the forthcoming Toccata CD:
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,7234.0.html (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,7234.0.html)