Many thanks to vicharris for uploading this beautiful symphony!
An incomplete version exists on YT, but here we finally have a complete performance by a top rate orchestra. Its engaging melodies and sprightly dynamics have got my day off to a splendid start. There are so many musical ideas packed into the work, and - for me at least - it is going to withstand/reward repeated listening! So, thank you again. ;)
It is indeed a very beautiful work and I am extremely grateful to hear this pleasing performance.
I completely agree. Marvellous, memorable stuff. Come on cpo - let's have your recordings of all four symphonies under Israel Yinon! (FWIW, I think Yinon is rather more dynamic in this score than Bruns, thoroughly grateful though I am to have a recording of the whole Symphony!)
I'm sincerely examining my musical and critical values here. Not all late romantic symphonies can be a world which embraces everything, but to get my juices running a number of attributes are essential: tunefulness certainly, but also formal and melodic inventiveness, dramatic projection, structural cohesion, harmonic tension and release, rhythmic dynamism, variation in instrumental colour. Which of these would you say Jadassohn 4 possesses?
Jadassohn's Fourth is really great music. Long long ago I tried to convince Klaus Heymann to let me record Jadassohn's Symphonies, but he never wanted this.
Of the Fourth and the Third I have original scores (first prints); of the 3rd all instrumental parts...
This morning I also gave a new look to the full score of Moszkowski's E major Concerto (first print of 1898) and to Niels Gade' s Concert Overture "Michelangelo" (undated first print, probably around 1865)...
So much music in my archive which, alas, I will never be allowed to perform in this life... :(
Ah, but what in your view are its qualities? Can you point to specific features in the score that are noteworthy? My loss I know, but to me it sounds pretty run-of-the-mill in both recordings, distinctly backward looking for its date.
You are right, matesic, it's still run-out-of-the mill, compared to other works by other composers, but there are possibilities for avert and intelligent conductors and good orchestras to make them sound alive and interesting. I never compare music to its "dates", but to its substance, build-up and intrumentation.
I'd pick out two features:
1. Orchestration. Wonderful solo writing in particular for oboe and French horn. Haunting, beautiful.
2. Melodies. The work is full of them. I can remember almost all of them. Real ear-worms.
True, it's conservative for its date (son of Schumann rather than son of Brahms) - but who cares from the perspective of 2014? I don't.
BTW I think it was premiered in December 1888 (perhaps earlier) (it was given in that month in a concert in Leipzig.) Are its composition dates known?
Edit: 6 December 1888, Gewandhaus, according to the NZM (1888, p.552. Not sure if future or past tense is being used, though, so that may be predictive and may not have happened as scheduled exactly, etc.)
Of itself, musical conservatism or "backward-lookingness" shouldn't prejudice our judgement, particularly (as Alan says) from the perspective of more than a hundred years, but with very few exceptions the composers we consider "great" were all forward-looking, mould-breaking, expanding the frontiers of musical experience. For some reason even decent music composed in the style of a previous generation is generally branded as "derivative", hardly better than "worthless". I'm sure in many cases that's an unfair judgement which should be corrected, but we also attach great value to the possession of an individually distinctive "voice" - another quality I currently fail to detect in Jadassohn. Could be due to my ignorance of the rest of his oeuvre, of course, but I wonder?
I'm not sure how far this particular part of the thread is going to get us. Jadassohn was one of the many fine symphonists writing within the broad, conservative Austro-German tradition in the 19th century: others include Reinecke, Volkmann, Dietrich, Bargiel, Gernsheim, Fuchs, Franck (E.), Goetz, Brüll, Bruch, Hiller, Abert, Rheinberger, Rudorff. This idiom was effectively a sort of musical lingua franca.
So, can I always distinguish their works? No. But then I'd have the same problem distinguishing something obscure by Mendelssohn from something obscure by Schumann and nobody denies their greatness. Can I tell one composer's symphony from another's? Answer: yes! Why? Because I've spent years getting to know them - and now that I do know them, I can hear all sorts of distinguishing features which amount to individual variations on this musical lingua franca. So, I simply don't accept the premise of this argument. It's a matter of familiarity, not distinctiveness.
I disagree entirely! As you say most perceptively (!), many minor composers of this and any other period speak a similar "out of the conservatoire" language which doesn't allow for easy differentiation on grounds of harmonic idiom, formal manipulation, dramatic contrast, orchestration and so on - exactly the qualities which DO distinguish the major figures. In addition, there are those difficult-to-define quirks of utterance which shout out "Bruckner" or whoever. I don't know whether it's intentional or not, but I suspect they really can't help being themselves. It seems pretty clear to me that this is a major reason why some composers enjoy the light while many more are stuck in the shadows
I understand your position; the problem I have is with your statement that Jadassohn doesn't have an 'individually distinctive "voice"'. I think one simply has to listen harder to discern it.
And I still think that it is possible to confuse the more obscure pieces by the recognised greats - especially in the field of chamber music where the range of colours available is much more restricted. So familiarity is a big factor here.
Hmm.... debate over the quality of compositions is familiar territory at UC. The outcome is usually an agreement to respect differences of opinion and taste. ;D
Let's take that outcome as read, please, and move on...
What we can agree about, surely, is the wonderful melodic content of Jadassohn's 4th. I'm still humming its tunes and tapping my feet to its various rhythmic features as I write this...
Does anyone have any information (timings, tempi etc) on the various movements of this lovely piece?
Thanks
Richard
Thank you, Richard. You took the question right off my fingers. ;)
I also recorded the youtube version conducted by Israel Yinon (the CPO recording) back in 2009 but movement titles etc weren't provided.
Has Yinon recorded the other symphonies, too? This one has been aired a couple of times but none of the others.
That's the recording starting towards the close of the first movement, right? Or have you the whole thing? We know that Yinon has recorded all four symphonies for cpo, but there's no sign of them yet.
Yes, I have the complete recording of the first movement. I did not upload my recording because I knew that CPO would release it some day.
It'd be good to hear it. We'd obviously have to take it down when cpo's recording comes out, so might you consider uploading your recording of the whole symphony? (I think it's superior to Bruns'.)
Re what I think was the premiere, from NZM (1888) -
"Das neunte Gewandhaus-Konzert wurde am 6. Dezember eröffnet mit einer neuen Symphonie (Cmoll, nr. 4) von Sal. Jadassohn. Sie fand unter des Leitung des Componisten bei einer vortrefflichen Ausführung eine nicht ungünstige (?) Aufnahme ; am meisten schien das Scherzo zu gefallen, ein vorzugsweise französischen Mustern geschicht nachgebildetes, an Pariser Plauderton gemahnendes Tonstück, dem nur ein gewählteres Trio noth thut. Das einleitende sostenuto des ersten Satzes wird auch dem Finale vorausgeschicht, ohne dass dafür ein zwingender Grund anzugeben wäre. Das Adagio ist wie auch in den drei Vorgängerinnen die Achillesferfe(? Achilles' heel?) des Werkes, das begreiflicherweise von irgendwie aufrührerischen Gesinnüngen sich fernhält, im Uebringen glatt und geschickt gearbeitet ist und gut klingt. ..."
(Excerpted, with a poor effort on my part to transcribe from the Gothic German, from archive.org (https://archive.org/stream/NeueZeitschriftFuerMusik1888Jg55Bd84#page/n559/mode/2up). Will attempt to translate when my brain cools... ouch!!!!!!)
Even from what we can hear on Youtube, the differences in timings between the two performances seem extraordinary. Yinon takes three minutes less over the scherzo and no less than twelve minutes more over the finale, at the same tempo. Is he trying to kill his violinists?
For your information: Yinon takes 7:45 min for the first movement.
Is there a repeat in the finale?
Two I'd guess, although that wouldn't account for Bruns's time being more than doubled! The proportions of the 4 movements in Yinon's version are most peculiar, and I can't think of any other piece of this period that places such weight on the finale. Maybe Bruns also made cuts? And unauthorised repeats in the scherzo?? Without the score it's hard to tell what's going on.
There are copies of the symphony (in full score or reduction or something) at St. Pancras (British library - 144pp - full score) and Newberry Library , Chicago, Illinois (also 144 pp, "Partitur-Bibliothek", plate 18324 of Breitkopf), among other places, if anyone wants to look. I don't think Newberry interloans to my library here (not for free and maybe not at all), but some people on this list may live near St Pancras station...
St Pancras shelfmark: Music Collections h.1567.s.(2.)
UIN: BLL01004433659
Identifier: 004433659
(OCLC: Worldcat.org (http://www.worldcat.org/title/symphonie-no-4-in-c-moll-fur-grosses-orchester-werk-101-partitur/oclc/497230279). Newberry: Worldcat (http://www.worldcat.org/title/symphonie-no-4-in-c-moll-fur-grosses-orchester-werk-101/oclc/62246521).)
QuoteYes, I have the complete recording of the first movement. I did not upload my recording because I knew that CPO would release it some day.
"Some day" is unlikely to be this decade, I fear, knowing the typical speed (or rather, lack thereof) that cpo requires to get recordings into distribution. It's exaxperating to know that so many interesting pieces have been recorded by them, only to languish on tapes and harddrives for years on end.
In my honest opinion: This will be less exasperating the moment one can say: their total product (program notes, CD case (if CD), sound quality, everything together) has been put together so well by them that releases that come more quickly from other labels feel rushed in comparison.
Actually, sometimes they do pretty well with much of this, except for some times when they should have spent yet more time on the program notes...
Regarding the timing of Yinon in the 1st movement: in Carlos Kleiber's iconic recording of Beethoven's 5th Symphony, the first movement, repeat included, clocks in at 7:47, if memory serves.
As already mentioned earlier, I have full scores of Jadasshohn's Fourth and Second. After my return from Bratislava in January 2015, I will find the time to scan them an make them available over the net.
That's very good of you. Thanks!
Speaking about Israel Yinon: yesterday, during a Lucerne performance of Strauss' Alpensinfonie the conductor broke down, fell from the podium into the audience and died. I will miss his wonderful and highly inspired artistry! He was conducting the Central Swiss Youth Philharmonic Orchestra
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/vermischtes/Dirigent-stirbt-waehrend-Konzert-in-Luzern/story/26957193 (http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/vermischtes/Dirigent-stirbt-waehrend-Konzert-in-Luzern/story/26957193)
That is tragic news. He was only 59. A great conductor and a great loss to music.
Very, very sad news. Thanks, Adriano, for letting us know.
Very tragic indeed! At least he died doing the thing he loved most.
Kevin
So listening to this again, it really is great, one of the best pieces uploaded here I'd say. Seeing that CPO has a recording in the can is great.....hopefully when it comes out I'll remember how much I like this...
In the can? *blink* :)
Erm, wait, what? In another thread we've been discussing the release of this very recording, which is available, just maybe not everywhere yet- not in the latest Records International- well, maybe next month... (a search Jadassohn Symphonies on the US amazon.com still turns up only the Cameo Classics recording of sym.1 which I'd managed unfortunately to forget- which eliminates A, erm I mean March...)
(Hush, Eric.)
JPC just sent me a depatch advice confirming that the Jadasshon CD is on the way 8)
Do see this thread on the complete cycle:
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,5427.0.html (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,5427.0.html)