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So the question...have women composers the fact that they are women, against them in the larger forms? Based on what they have done, it seems like that.

One exception is Alma Mahler. Her songs, are together with Schuberts winterreise and griegs Haugtussa, the best in the world!!!

How do these things fit together? Since when are songs larger forms? You're actually saying, there are no exceptions to the rule, but you do like Alma's songs?

The form question is a very interesting one. To react to that:

Perhaps a little off topic. But would you say the Amy Beach orchestral works are better or worse than Ethel Smyth's? (Ref: Chandos cd). I keep wondering about them. The naxos cd's being cheap!

I like Beach, but I love Smyth - I can really recommend the Chandos CD with her double concerto and serenade. Very well orchestrated, perfectly at home in large forms. The finale of the concerto for me was a bit of a nod to the finale of Mahler's 7th, so it's probably not easily digested by most - it is, however, the reason I fell in love with the piece. So, there you have it: Ethel Smyth is for me the only woman composer I can put next to the semi-great male composers. But perhaps this is, because... I have to quote Steve here, who has put it so eloquently:

Also, there is the sexist element here at work(not in yourself, Thunderbird; please don't misunderstand me!)but in hegemonic musical western history, which is mainly male-dominated; and where some women composers were railroaded into domesticity by their (male) partners, as was the dominant culture of the age; so opportunities for career development(in, for example, orchestral forms) were more limited. I am not an expert in this field; but there ARE experts(probably mainly women!); but I think we should avoid sweeping generalisations based on one or two examples until full research is done, by us, as individuals. It is a chicken or egg situation: WERE women more at home in smaller(chamber, songs) forms or  did they not have the career opportunity, because of institutionalised sexism,to develop/get tuition in these forms.

...she was a lesbian! So she "naturally" didn't feel at home in the role society allocated to her, and wasn't intimidated by men holding up the prejudice of women not being able to a) compose at all, or b) compose in larger forms. Sexism has deprived us a what would probably be an important part of our cultural heritage - then again, sexism itself is part of our cultural heritage. An interesting, though tricky, topic.

It's a curiosity only and will, I predict, die a death - as it should.

Perhaps you are right, I would've said on Thursday - but yesterday I bought the wretched thing, and now I have to say: you're probably right.

Let it die an unnoticed death now, so that in 100 years our musicologists of then will dig up the piece and pronounce it an unsung rarity from the previous (from their point of view) turn of the century.

"For I am full of it", and not ashamed of that one bit. What a lovely idea, what a lovely transcription! I think it might go wrong if you take all too seriously, and I have to admit: it is rather tasteless to print "Piano Concerto No. 3" on the cover.

If the piece sounds not fully Brahms to some people, that is because they know the originals (the VC and both PCs) too well. I'm not going to propagate my views on transcription here, because I've done that already elsewhere on this forum. I am going to say that I can recommend this CD to anyone interested in music off the beaten path, Brahms, and piano concertos.

And now I'm going to apologise for digging up an old topic from the vaults of this forum and saying something that's probably not even very interesting...

One of my favorite pieces by Moscheles is his Concertante in (F?) for flute, oboe and orchestra and I don't have the opus number here.  There was a commercial recording of it that was quite blah but I have a transfer from a Mn. Public Radio broadcast of a performance some years ago by the Mn. Orchestra with the principal flute and oboe doing the solo parts.  I was there and it was a stunning performance.  My biggest disappointment is that they've never repeated it.....

There are too many commercial recordings of this rather uninteresting piece, I myself have four. Which one are you referring to? I probably should've heard the radio broadcast you're so enthusiastic about - perhaps it would trigger my interest in the piece more.

Agreed, there' s no two ways about it: orchestral music, and especially symphonies and concertos, is the thing on which reputations are built.

Quatsch.

Wagner, Rossini, Verdi, Puccini? Operas were until rather recently the thing on which reputations are built.

Chopin, Liszt? Both wrote 2 piano concertos (horrible in their own way) but their reputation rests mainly on a body of solo works.

They all belong to the most famous of composers...

"...Can it be said that the unsung status of some of the best neglected composers is attributable to the fact that their best music is not orchestral, or operatic, or even choral, but chamber and instrumental?..."

I would say absolutely so, Alan.  The "masterwork repertory" since Beethoven has been weighted in favor of big heaven-storming works for the largest available forces (naturally there are exceptions.)  Sometimes being a specialist in this area helps an unsung...look at the Mahler revival.  I'm betting, though, that if Mahler had been a chamber music specialist, he'd still be a niche composer today, revered by the few...

David

Very well said - chamber music is not really for the masses. They prefer either a grand musical drama (opera), the overwhelming sound of a large symphony orchestra or the one-hero shows at the piano - wasn't Liszt largely responsible for pulling music for solo piano out of the chamber atmosphere? We contribute to this by letting everyone - from piano soloists to symphony orchestras - perform in large concert halls, but saving the chamber music for more chamber-like surroundings.

I feel music for just a couple of instruments, chamber music, will always belong to a small elite (within the elite that is the whole of the classical music enthusiasts, nowadays) that doesn't necessarily need (I don't say: like!) lots of brass to convey a feeling of monumentality - or simply to be entertained. Insert famous Goethe quote on string quartet here... For me, chamber music will always constitute the peak of art, culture and indeed, civilisation as a whole as measured by our delightfully decadent, European standards.

That is not to say I don't love a good Mahler (or a good Raff, for that matter) every now and again!

It's difficult to describe, but I hope you understand what I mean. Do you know some other examples?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I reckon there's no really good way to describe it. What strikes me as being silent (while: solemn) is the short fragment of a chorale stated after the main theme (Hauptthema - how does one translate that in English?) in the recapitulation of the 1st movement of Bruckner's rather unsung "0th" symphony (the one in D minor). Every time I get to that point, I wonder why Bruckner didn't make this his official 2nd symphony... It is, in fact not silent in the "physical" sense, since it involves a lot of brass, but the effect it has on me is something of a standstill. It probably has to do with the rest of the music contrasting by conveying a feeling of urgency throughout.

I remember the violist of the Fitzwilliam String Quartet quoting T.S. Eliot when writing on the trio of the scherzo movement of Schubert famous cello quintet: "At the still point, there the dance is" - but that's the opposite of unsung. Very appropriate, nonetheless!

Look carefully. What the heck?

http://lpcoverlover.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08.resized/img_1910.jpg

Well, it's not called "piano artistry" for nothing...

Karl Weigl does deserve a topic of his own, the problem is, there's not much to discuss. The situation with this composer is ever sadder than with Rudi Stephan and Emil Bohnke, who's musical language he to some degree shares: he wrote quite a lot of music, and hardly anything is available.

I have the 2 BIS CDs with his 5th & 6th symphonies, a Nimbus CD with his 1st & 5th string quartets (a good place to start, indeed!), an Orfeo CD with his 3rd string quartet (coupled with Berg's string quartet & Lyric Suite) and an Albany CD called "Darkness & Light Vol. 3" - the latter only because of Weigl's short piano trio, since the rest is rather uninteresting to me.

I know of no more Weigl recordings - perhaps one of you has further recommendations?

Yet more gems from good old Westminster. Judging from previous responses, there are probably a few fondly remembered favourites in here:

They're Amazing, Albion!

I particularly like Brahms being represented by a greasy English breakfast and Wagner by the hippie belle with the Volkswagen hubcaps  in front of her breasts. Do you reckon it's worthwhile speculating about the "why", or are they just unassuming jokes?

Just remembered, the American (what else?) label Crystal Records is rather famous for its covers. After seeing one or two, I thought the musicians were allowed to create there own cover art. After seeing the whole bunch, I started suspecting that someone over at Crystal (which is a rather fine label, actually) is probably having the time of his life creating covers that will contrast to the "normal" classical music CDs, and make people buy the CDs out of pure curiosity...

Some examples:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=52568

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=52611

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=222762

I have something else, utterly tasteless as well, but I can't figure out how to upload pictures here...

I can't stand them,either. The dog with the horn was such a great design,iconic & witty.

We still have that on continental Europe.

How about this one. What were they thinking over at Erato?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AA7HKE6KL._SL500_AA300_.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.amazon.com/LOrchestre-Satie-Erik/dp/B000059ZI6&usg=__6QX4m5VCSlSnIKF0zRA1quHg1Uo=&h=300&w=300&sz=27&hl=nl&start=0&sig2=_kAwfXaJwC51dT8ELcrlZQ&tbnid=JHk1QxYb75npuM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=157&ei=b1JpTP38LY2OjAee-qHUBA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsatie%2Blamoureux%2Bsado%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:nl:official%26biw%3D978%26bih%3D693%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=134&vpy=71&dur=187&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=144&ty=136&oei=b1JpTP38LY2OjAee-qHUBA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

Pelleas is one of the great sound wallows of all time. Sumptuous. GurreLieder also. The modern versions sure make it sound better, but don't miss the old Stokowski recording (you might be able to find his Andante set with Philadelphia). One of his essentials, to my ear -- bad sound and all.

Thank you, I will make acquiring this a priority now!

And although Herr Schoenberg would be upset, I think his best work is the orchestration of the Brahms g-minor quartet. Brilliant!

Not only Herr Schönberg. The orchestration is an interesting piece of work, but doesn't share the orchestral sound world of Brahms - the percussion effects in the finale are particularly obscene - so that we have a piece that isn't quite Schönberg, but not quite Brahms, either. Fun to listen to, but to call this "his best work" is rather ridiculous, don't you agree?

I've never really warmed up to the piece, because it to my ears it sounds like a step back from romanticism - unlike the firebird, which is hyper-romantically excessive in every way. Polytonality is also present in his Petrushka. Call me old-fashioned...

In addition to the new Schönberg topic, another composer "turned evil". I actually do appreciate the music of the 2nd Viennese school (Adorno follower...); the composer I dislike most of everyone "modern" (not counting after 1950...) is Stravinsky. I never try and miss an opportunity to bash him. I accept his Sacre as one of the greatest musical revolutions ever (it's right up there with the Eroica, Tristan and 4'33), but that's not to say I like it. And the later the Stravinsky, the worse it gets for me.

Early Stravinsky for romantics - recommendations, anyone? I like his 1st piano sonata in f sharp minor, his 1st symphony in e flat major and adore his firebird - although I have little appreciation for the butchered up suite that was created out of the ballet, which is more like a tone poem in itself. The Sacre may be (for me!) a smack in the face of music history, but there is some nice romantic music preceding it. Any more works like the ones I mentioned?