In a reckless moment of extravagance, I've just splashed out and bought the Arte Nova set of the four Gernsheim Symphonies on ebay for the princely sum of £4.25 - what should I expect? ???
Lovely works in the received conservative German tradition, with glorious surges of orchestral power and memorable themes. None outstays its welcome. I'd put them at roughly the same level as the best of Stanford or Parry, with No.4 being the best overall.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Wednesday 02 February 2011, 17:47
I'd put them at roughly the same level as the best of Stanford or Parry.
That's good enough for me! ;D
Difficult to think how you could better spend £4.25. Alan is spot on. You can rest easy and look forward to a treat.
I agree!! Some really fine music in his output I think being recorded gradually thanks also to Toccata Classics also and others.
Thanks to Albion for this wonderful tip! I ordered a copy from Amazon. Belonging to this group is really costing me a lot of money...
A lot of money? Slightly more than £1 per gorgeous Gernsheim symphony? ;)
It all adds up,but the price IS still a bargain,although Albions copy is,sadly,(but not for him),sold.
Listening to samples on Amazon. I have never heard this composer before,but these sound really impressive,full of sweep and passion and wonderful surging tunes. This is REALLY good. I notice.at least one Amazon.com reviewer rates them more highly than Brahms's cycle. Maybe a little ott,but if the rest of the symphonies are as good as the samples!
I'm going back to Amazon & spending my a little over £1 a disc TOO!
All lovers of good unsung symphonists should hear the Gernsheim cycle. It'll bring hours of enjoyment...
And, fingers crossed, it might lead you to the wonderful Toccata CD of the two Piano Quintets!
Peter
I notice the Quintets have had some rave reviews.
I must admit the Wetz symphonies put me off neglected late 19thc/early 20thc symphonies for a while. Discovering Raff via this site got me going again.
Come to think of it,it was a review of the Antes edition of the 'Piano Trios' that I saw.
(There are so many neglected symphonies from this period. Robert Volkmann is another one,but I can't find much about him)
I DO get a strong feeling reading threads on this forum that my next cd port of call should be Felix Draeseke.
Quote from: Pengelli on Thursday 03 February 2011, 13:19
I DO get a strong feeling reading threads on this forum that my next cd port of call should be Felix Draeseke.
at least with Draeseke, you can hear some of the works in part or full (including all of symphony 3) for free at draeseke.org. I prefer the chamber music to the symphonies in his case (and several others'). (Though I like Wetz!)
Quote from: Pengelli on Thursday 03 February 2011, 13:19
I DO get a strong feeling reading threads on this forum that my next cd port of call should be Felix Draeseke.
I came to Draeseke expecting a dutiful listen to a dry-as-dust academic. Instead I found a winning melodic gift, colourful orchestration and restrained but very real emotion.
Being an orchestral (rather than a chamber music or instrumental) animal I only know his work through the Symphonies and their couplings on CPO, but these three discs have taken a treasured place in my collection.
The commenters are right: the four Gernsheim symphonies on 2 CDs is a great bargain. Sadly, the symphonies did not resonate with me. If you are interested in owning this set, drop me a line and I'll send it to you. This is a no strings attached offer (also a no pun intended offer), but if you want to send me something you're not listening to, it might be a fun trade.
I'd like to recommend more Gernsheim: https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/friedrich-gernsheim-violinkonzerte-nr-1-d-dur-op-42-nr-2-f-dur-op-86/hnum/8290276 and this lovely disc: https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/August-Klughardt-1847-1902-Symphonie-Nr-2-d-moll-op-27-Leonore/hnum/2871447
QuoteSadly, the symphonies did not resonate with me. If you are interested in owning this set, drop me a line and I'll send it to you.
By coincidence I've been listening to Gernsheim's symphonies a lot recently. On the whole, if you don't like Brahms's symphonies, you won't like Gernsheim's ....though some of the movements ( the tarantella from the second symphony, for instance ) couldn't have been written by Brahms.
Before you sell them, try the finale of the Symphony No 4 again. Its surging second subject may just convert you.
I appreciate the efforts to get me to give the Gernsheim symphonies one more chance and, indeed I have pulled out the album a couple times over the years to see if my initial impression had changed. After every listen, I always ended up coming to the same conclusion, that the symphonies were not really my bag. Nevertheless, as per the last suggestion, I went ahead and gave the fourth movement of the fourth symphony another spin. And now I can truly say that the opinions expressed here are right on: the music is conservative and does sound like Brahms wouldn't have composed it. Thanks for the encouragement, however. I really value the opinions of the members here. In any event, I was never trying to sell the CD. I just wanted to get it into the hands of someone who would appreciate it more than I do. Still looking for any takers.
My suggestion would have been to sample the other recording of it/them (over YouTube), now that there is one, but I hear you.
Quote from: Finn_McCool on Tuesday 23 March 2021, 02:04
I appreciate the efforts to get me to give the Gernsheim symphonies one more chance and, indeed I have pulled out the album a couple times over the years to see if my initial impression had changed. After every listen, I always ended up coming to the same conclusion, that the symphonies were not really my bag. Nevertheless, as per the last suggestion, I went ahead and gave the fourth movement of the fourth symphony another spin. And now I can truly say that the opinions expressed here are right on: the music is conservative and does sound like Brahms wouldn't have composed it. Thanks for the encouragement, however. I really value the opinions of the members here. In any event, I was never trying to sell the CD. I just wanted to get it into the hands of someone who would appreciate it more than I do. Still looking for any takers.
Now, I'm not going to try to "sell" Gernsheim to you; it's not your cup of tea, and that's fine. But I want to argue against seeing Gernsheim as a mere "Brahmsian" epigone - and the same has been said of Fuchs, Herzogenberg, Dietrich, or even Bruch or Draeseke. This is a typical example of a largely common expressive language shared among a circle of befriended/acquainted artists which then is named after its most famous representative. The unfortunate side-effect is that it creates the impression that the rest of the circle consists of mere copycats.
Quite right, Ilja. The way to approach these fine composers is to attempt to judge them on their own merits rather than in comparison with Brahms.
There is 1 more Gernsheim symphony yet to be recorded - the early E-flat of 1857. Hope this comes out eventually.
Agreed. And both it and the G minor predate his meeting Brahms, at least (I don't know how much of Brahms' music he knew at that point.)
At least much of the chamber music, I'd say - Brahms was already well-known before the 1st Symphony. Also, I think both knew Dietrich before they did each other, so it's likely he shared his knowledge with Gernsheim.
What is the source situation with the E flat? It isn't on IMSLP.
The Manuscript of E-flat symphony seems to be in the Jewish National Library https://www.worldcat.org/title/symphonie-in-es-dur-fur-grosses-orchester-manuscript/oclc/875090436 (https://www.worldcat.org/title/symphonie-in-es-dur-fur-grosses-orchester-manuscript/oclc/875090436)
...composed before his 18th birthday!
Quote from: FBerwald on Wednesday 07 April 2021, 13:04
The Manuscript of E-flat symphony seems to be in the Jewish National Library https://www.worldcat.org/title/symphonie-in-es-dur-fur-grosses-orchester-manuscript/oclc/875090436 (https://www.worldcat.org/title/symphonie-in-es-dur-fur-grosses-orchester-manuscript/oclc/875090436)
291 Pages. Ahem.
Sounds rather a lot...
It depends. 200-250 ms pages would not be unusual for a full-rounded 40-minute symphony. Some composers write 8-10 measures per page in manuscript, others 3-4. It could contain crossed-out and drafted pages etc. Only way to make a good judgment is to see what the ms looks like. But it does sound interesting – an early, ambitious work like this could either be a wonderful discovery or a complete dud.
Hrm. By comparison the holographs of Bruckner 6 and Gernsheim's C minor are about 205 and 230 pp. Interesting. (Louis Glass' first comes out to 382 pp. and 45 minutes.) The fact that some manuscripts from the same library have been made available for recording (eg Toccata's piano Gernsheim and a recent Weinberger recording) suggests the possibility, anyway.
Just an update that I gave the CD of Gernsheim symphonies to my brother. He has pretty wide open listening habits, so we'll see what he thinks. He had never heard of Gernsheim, so maybe it's better he got the CD instead of someone who's already familiar with the composer.
Two and a half years after the last contribution on this thread, I've just acquired the Arte Nova set of the Gernsheim symphonies from eBay for £6, so a bargain similar to Albion's purchase in 2011! I'd already listened to Symphony no. 1, which is discussed in Christopher Fifield's book, having never heard of Gernsheim before (I'm in my mid-70s).
These symphonies had an immediate appeal for me. There are many reminders of his friend Brahms, particularly the main theme of no. 2's finale, but also hints of Dvorak and other contemporaries. Gernsheim handles his thematic material well and writes especially well for the woodwind. He also includes instruments unusual in a German symphony - triangle and tambourine in no. 2 (tarantella) and harp in no.3. Nos. 2 to 4 last around 30 minutes each, so much shorter than the Brahms symphonies, but no. 1 runs to around 40 minutes and that's without the first movement repeat omitted by Köhler on the Arte Nova set; the scherzo is a more substantial movement that the equivalents in the other symphonies.
Although generally "conservative" in style and form, these works can be recommended to anyone wanting to hear a fresh voice from a period from which there is still so much music to be rediscovered. American music critic Dave Hurwitz has a ten-minute talk which can be found on line.
The Arte Nova set was also my introduction to these lovely works, but I now prefer the richer sound of the performances on cpo:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8031677--gernsheim-symphonies-nos-1-3
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8145269--gernsheim-symphonies-nos-2-4
The thing that stood out for me about the Gernsheim symphonies from the beginning was the evident quality of the writing: great melodies and expert craftsmanship combined. They are certainly among the best symphonies written in my home country of the Netherlands (well, 3 out of 4 anyhow). I think that there's not much difference in quality between Köhler and the alter Bäumer set on CPO; their approaches are also roughly similar so if this one's available at a discount, go for it.
Interestingly, I'm on a Gernsheim "binge" at the moment, I've recently got the wonderful violin concertos (CPO) and, just last week, Toccata Classics 2 CDs (so far) of the piano music. Must give the Symphonies a spin soon - I've got the old Arte Nova recording and it one of the first obscure composer discs I ever bought.