Decided to create a new thread for this in light of the new live recording of the work from May 26 in Lachen.
I wonder if the CPO recording will be different?
After having listened to the recording and recalling from memory the concert in person, I believe there can be some explanations for some shortcomings on this:
At times the strings sound rather thin in my opinion, and I know they did have some issues tuning the instruments after the first section.
At one time about halfway through the performance, a single violinist stopped playing for several minutes while attempting to fix the issue. If the CPO release is going to be done in the studio, hopefully they can clear up this problem. Fortunately I only hear it at certain times and in parts like the Apocalyptic Riders, the sheer robustness creates enough excitement to shadow it.
The highlight is Andreas Wolf as John. He brings a certain level of stateliness that was missing in the Empfingen recording as exemplified in No. 31, and also some vitality as in No. 6.
While the oboist messes up on No. 30 when the New World begins, I find this entire third act the most satisfying when Miss Rheinhold comes in to sing No. 32.
The choir was also quite good, in particular on No. 3 with such tenderness, also I fell they feel short a little bit on No. 13 on the higher notes.
Regarding that these are minor issues out of a nearly 2 hour performance, I am impressed with this and am glad that Raff is at least honored with this for his bicentenary.
Overall the performance is terrific, if not flawless (as always, more strings would have been a bonus). It's a live performance of course so, as Justin writes, there's the odd fluff, but the two soloists are very good - the baritone in particular is excellent, singing with great authority. There's a rawness and urgency to it at times which is really exciting - the "Death and Hell" orchestral interlude at the end of the Apocalyptic Riders section is full of vigour, and the drama of the chorus in the very end of the first part - Welt-Ende - is hugely effective. This is in such effective contrast to some of the more serenely lyrical choral passages which are beautifully phrased and sensitively sung. It's all refreshingly different to the "safety" of the old LP set, so I was surprised that the overall timing is virtually the same, which just shows that it's never just a question of tempi. As for the broadcast recording, it's not as perfect as a commercial CD of course, but it'll do well enough until cpo get their act together. All in all, this performance shows what a glorious piece Raff's last major work is and it thoroughly deserved the long ovation which I understand it got on the night.
News has just come in that the Leipzig performance at the Gewandhaus was also recorded, by Deutschlandfunk, and will be broadcast soon.
Yes, I've just read that too. Looks like his bicentenary might just have moved the Raff renaissance up a gear.
It'd be great if a major conductor/orchestra tackled some of the symphonies.
Quote from: Wheesht on Wednesday 08 June 2022, 08:41News has just come in that the Leipzig performance at the Gewandhaus was also recorded, by Deutschlandfunk, and will be broadcast soon.
Has this been broadcast? A recording, allegedly from Leipzig, is available here:
https://classicalmusicinconcert.blogspot.com/2023/05/raff-welt-ende-gericht-neue-welt-gregor.html
The source is attributed to a podcast from Catalunya Musica.
Thanks. I'm not sure if this is a recording of the Leipzig performance, which I haven't heard, or the recording of the Lachen performance we already have. Of course, as they're the same forces one would expect them to very similar, but the recording ambiance also seems close, although my copy of the Lachen recording (which I've edited a little) seems more immediate. I need to do some more detailed comparisons than I've so far been able to do, but if anyone else has a view I'd be delighted to read it.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Monday 08 May 2023, 16:18I need to do some more detailed comparisons than I've so far been able to do, but if anyone else has a view I'd be delighted to read it.
Thus the reason for my adding "allegedly" in my attribution. I, too, haven't done a side-by-side, but the recordings are just a bit too similar for performances in different venues. Can a church in Lachen have the same ambience as the oversized Gewandhaus? The pause between the conclusion and audience reaction is also just a bit too similar for comfort. But then again, I'm far from expert at audio forensics.
When I attended the concert in Lachen, I remember the oboist messing up his solo in the beginning of the third section for "New World." I hear that in this recording so pretty sure it is the Lachen performance.
Ah, thanks Justin. I was fairly sure that it was the Lachen recording, but as I'd fiddled a bit with the audio wasn't able to make a direct comparison with the original.
A rather promising release. I don't know any choral work by Raff yet, so I have high expectations for this upcoming recording:
https://www.clicmusique.com/joseph-joachim-raff-welt-ende-gericht-neue-welt-reinhold-wolf-meyer-p-110786.html?osCsid=9tk8s617e4000i8u58q51t1rt5
This is awesome! I had a feeling after its performances in 2022 at Lachen and Leipzig that this work would soon be commercially released.
I am unsure from the cover if this is the May 2022 Lachen performance (the one I attended and currently posted on this forum) or the June Leipzig one or a studio recording. The Lachen one has a flub by the oboe in the beginning of the third section and a mishap by a violin being unable to play for a couple minutes at some point in the first section. The vocal performances by Wolf and Rheinhold are outstanding.
Excellent! I'm fairly sure that it was recorded in Leipzig. With the upcoming release of Samson and the prospect of Die Eifersüchtigen in the autumn, it's going to quite a year for major vocal works by the master.
The cpo recording is due out in Germany next week:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/joachim-raff-oratorium-weltende-gericht-neue-welt/hnum/11165022
Good oh! To answer Justin's earlier query, this is definitely the Leipzig performance, recorded at the Gewandhaus on 6 June 2022.
1 hour 46 minutes of prime Raff - can't wait! My order's in.
I see, and their 6 new releases of the month are out at that (of which this is no.2 in order of physical placement). Anyhow, good news! (Ah, yep, says Recording: Gewandhaus Leipzig..." on the back label from the jpc site. Hrm, recorded just under 2 years before release- arguably not bad in general, and I don't mean just for cpo.)
I'm gobsmacked that the whole double album, as yet unreleased, has already been posted of YouTube by the choir.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Friday 23 February 2024, 12:04I'm gobsmacked that the whole double album, as yet unreleased, has already been posted of YouTube by the choir.
It was just released.
And why are you gobsmacked in 2024? For most people, streaming IS how they listen to things. I'm fan of a game whose second entry came out a year ago. Soundtrack was released on CD and download (in Japan only, as is the normal) shortly after, and almost everyone who continues to whine about "Why isn't it on Spotify?!" "When's it going to be on Spotify?!".....and now it was just put there the other day, tons of people are all over it.
If this is the way of the world, I'm a dinosaur. And always will be.
Back to the work itself...
QuoteFor most people, streaming IS how they listen to things.
Oh, I understand that, of course, and I have no problem with it. But if it's on YouTube it's not monetised as it would be on the commercial streaming platforms, so neither cpo nor the artists will get anything financially from it being streamed from there.
That is precisely the point, Mark. I can't see how it can be in the interests of the choir (or any of the artistes) to make this brand new recording available via a medium which is free. I will listen to it, of course, but I shall also purchase the CD when it is released.
Anyway, as Alan rightly prompts: back to the work itself. (Alan and I will lumber back into the Jurassic undergrowth!)
In Germany I can only find this one:
Gerhard Rehm conducting: Mechthild Georg (Mezzo-Soprano); Kurt Widmer (Baritone); Balinger Kantorei; Catholic Church Choir Empfingen; Wiesenstetten Church Choir; and the Southwest German Radio Symphony Orchestra
Quote from: TerraEpon on Friday 23 February 2024, 13:20Quote from: Mark Thomas on Friday 23 February 2024, 12:04I'm gobsmacked that the whole double album, as yet unreleased, has already been posted of YouTube by the choir.
It was just released.
And why are you gobsmacked in 2024? For most people, streaming IS how they listen to things. I'm fan of a game whose second entry came out a year ago. Soundtrack was released on CD and download (in Japan only, as is the normal) shortly after, and almost everyone who continues to whine about "Why isn't it on Spotify?!" "When's it going to be on Spotify?!".....and now it was just put there the other day, tons of people are all over it.
Why are you surprised that some of us are gobsmacked (be it 2024 or 2084)? A lot of time, money and effort went into this and to have it all freely streamed is just plain wrong. If your argument is that this is the standard norm nowadays, it still doesn't make it right. This whole argument of free streaming music so that the public can sample the whole thing before they can make a decision if or not to purchase is akin to going to a clothing store and telling them that you want to wear one of their expensive 3 piece suit for a couple of days before deciding if or not you want to actually purchase it.
If they must sample something, then let it be sound clips; of if it is the whole piece, then make it part of a paid subscription.
Quote from: TerraEpon on Friday 23 February 2024, 13:20It was just released.
And why are you gobsmacked in 2024? For most people, streaming IS how they listen to things.
...Because now anyone can down load it for free, eliminating any monetary return for CD sales or paid streaming.
Well, I've paid my money and made my (no doubt old-fashioned) choice...
I believe my order went in within 24 hours of yours, so let's see to whom JPC gives priority.
I never thought I'd see a recording of this. And to think there are still candidates, like the "Volker" (Op. 203) suite or the Suite in A (Op. 210) for violin. Still, something on this scale is remarkable.
Well, I already recorded it directly from digital radio when it was broadcast in 2022, but will still buy a CD in order to support this enterprise :-)
Exactly. I'm doing the same.
Qobuz has it available already to stream, for those who Qobuz :)
CD orders from jpc are now being shipped.
My order's on its way.
Ok gave this a listen. As usual for Raff, very good. Was worried about all the dialogue but no, it's recitatives. Whoops. :P
Of course as usual Amazon doesn't seem to want to have pages for CPO CDs any more for some reason, no idea what's up with that.
The recording is excellent. I still prefer the Lachen performance as I feel the baritone puts a bit more passion and feeling into it, but this CD is highly recommended for sound quality and hearing all of the orchestral textures.
@TerraEpon
Oratorios have usually recitatives and no dialogues :-)
QuoteOf course as usual Amazon doesn't seem to want to have pages for CPO CDs any more for some reason
They do have pages for CPO CDs, but I've noticed that for new releases Amazon seems to offer the downloads first and only list the physical product some weeks (or even months) later. I agree - it's an odd practice.
Not all that odd from a retailer's perspective. Keeping inventory is expensive, so the more customers you can serve with the digital product, the less physical items you need to stock. Of course, one box of Raff CDs won't make a huge difference but across their entire catalogue...
You may well be right, Ilja. Although that doesn't explain why they don't simply invite customers to order the CD as soon as it is advertised on the Amazon website, telling purchasers it will be delivered when the physical item becomes available (as they not infrequently do with products from other labels) - they wouldn't be holding much stock then.
But all this is by the by...
Frankly, I've given up waiting for the UK release of new cpo recordings on CD. I order them direct from jpc as soon as they come out in Germany.
Quote from: Ilja on Tuesday 05 March 2024, 21:21Not all that odd from a retailer's perspective. Keeping inventory is expensive, so the more customers you can serve with the digital product, the less physical items you need to stock. Of course, one box of Raff CDs won't make a huge difference but across their entire catalogue...
This, however, is Amazon which lists almost anything else. They are as a whole pushing toward digital but this isn't some small label that sells mainly from its website, this is CPO which for sure could be considered a major indie in the classicalsphere.
I don't want this to escalate into another pointless discussion of economics, but it's good to realize that in commercial terms, classical music is minute at around one percent share of the music market. Of that, the independents are again only a small part.
One element to keep in mind also (and which I forgot in my earlier post), and which might explain Amazon's policy of pushing downloads over physical product is that the margin on downloads is generally higher. Not only because of inventory, but also because the costs of creating physical product are, by and large, higher than the price difference between CDs and downloads.
... and with that, let's focus on Raff and his oratorio, please.
The notes tell us the band is a HIP ensemble. Hmmm. Well, we'll see what that ultimately means when I listen to my copy tomorrow.
I listened to Part 1 this morning. All in all it is a success. The vocal soloists are a bit too forward for my taste, but not excessively so, and the HIP orchestra doesn't lay on the HIPness much. Like, they play like squares...you dig, Daddy-O? And that's fine by me.
One of the things that really struck me while listening to it is how obviously it is by Raff. No other composer could have written this. His style is as easily identifiable as Brahms or Mendelssohn. Whatever accusations are made against him, that his music lacks identifiable character or has a generic 19th century sound is certainly not valid.
---
Having now listened to the whole thing I was at first surprised at how low-key it was, which is really to its credit. Given the subject matter one might be tempted to write something bombastic and excessive, but Raff wisely avoids this.
The recording and performance deliver a pretty impressive punch, conductor Gregor Meyer emphasising the dramatic vigour of the work. The baritone Andreas Wolf has a powerful and dynamic presence and soprano Marie Henriette Reinhold, with a much smaller part, is also excellent. Both are recorded a little forward of the choir but not excessively so and the chorus itself sings with gusto and finesse as the music demands. The purely orchestral passages come over very well, the fierier ones genuinely exciting, and the pace of the piece is absolutely spot on - Meyer doesn't hang around and that's what's almost always needed with Raff. I suppose I'm so familiar with the work from the old LP recording, a noble but flawed effort, and this is such a (literally) dramatic improvement, that at present I'm rather bowled over by it. In this performance it really does come over as the master work Raff hoped it would prove to be.
First: the music. It's extraordinary. As John says, this is unique. Sure, there are influences, e.g. Berlioz's Requiem in the grand passages for brass, but the word that keeps crossing my mind is 'luminous' - and forward-looking, which makes me think of some of Liszt's late music. It's a one-off piece, demonstrating Raff's huge range and creativity.
Secondly: the performance. It's beautifully recorded, with just the right amount of space around the orchestra and soloists. However, and it's a gripe that I feel could have been avoided - the baritone's technique is surely faulty: he has a habit of starting a note without vibrato which then turns into a 'bleat'. (The mezzo is better, although she shares something of the same tendency.) Nevertheless, it's a strong voice and, from what I can tell, his tuning is excellent. I would also have preferred less HIP-influenced string-playing from the orchestra, although the recording's resonance helps to impart a certain glow to their performance. I'm left wondering why an HIP approach was chosen but, like Mark, I was frequently bowled over the sheer magnificence of the music.
What is your opinion on the Lachen performance versus the Leipzig one?
I'm probably not competent to judge. I think the new cpo recording is fine, but could have been better if it had avoided an HIP approach. I dislike the baritone soloist and the vibrato-free string-playing. But it's a mandatory purchase.
I'm away from home now, without access to either recording, but from memory my impression was that the Leipzig performance has a tad more drive and immediacy. Of course, that may be down to the different acoustic and balance of performers.
After acquaintance with this work via the Empfingen performance on LP, I was skeptical of this new attempt, but have been totally won over. It's like hearing the work for the first time and I look forward to many plays of the cpo issue.
I do have a question for those who purchased the physical CD. I note that the streaming/download version have discrepancies in timings vis-à-vis the booklet: e.g. CD1 track 04 Part I, Welt-Ende B.Die Apokalyptischen Reiter Recitative by St John Und ich sah, dass das Lamm is listed in the booklet as 07:14 while the download track is only 0:56 in duration. Among other discrepancies, the final track of CD2 (16 Part III, Neue Welt Chorus Komme, ja komme bald, Erlöser!) is stated to be 02:04 while the streaming version is 05:46
cpo, for all their merits, have a bit of track record at messing up tracks (punintentional) on their printed brochures and trays, but thought I'd check here if the physical CD actually matches the booklet timings. FWIW, the streaming version plays smoothly with no jarring segues from track-to-track. TIA.
The CD has the same discrepancies between the printed track times in the booklet and the actual ones, which are the same as the downloads. You're missing no music.
How hard can it be to get this right?
Don't get me started.
Much as I admire and value cpo, their production values often leave much to be desired. Track timings, eccentric booklet notes and poor translations into English done by native German speakers are among the defects that really need urgent attention.