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Thanks for the info. The fact that the full score is in Madrid does further suggest that Italian performances were at best few or maybe even none. I wonder if his other operas met a similar fate from his compatriots.

 Mr Howe,
Thanks for the link to the discussion. I did find the overture on my own but obviously no opera or even aria. The discussion while providing some interesting history really did not say much about the opera musically that one couldn't have predicted from general knowledge of the period and Bottesini's other music though.

One bit of history I thought quite interesting is that Ali Baba was performed in English and Spanish back in the day but apparently not Italian. So I have to assume his operas did not appeal to Italian opera goers for whatever reason. It does sound like his operas have been untouched for 150 years or so. Did no one hear the broadcast? Is the score available anywhere?

I would be very interested to know if anyone heard this opera let alone recorded it. Bottesini wrote a number of operas and he was Italian. Are they so astoundingly awful that even the Italians don't want to hear them? I'm really curious what is going on with their absolute disappearance. I assume it's not an Albinoni situation where the scores were lost.

Terry,

I agree that the B3 (and possibly B2) is more likely a general starting point for Wetz and Scherber. It is Romantic and questing without the specific and highly charged angst near the surface of B8 and all over B9. But I don't see either composer as simply imitating Bruckner but rather using him as a generalized starting point the way Brahms did in his Symphony 1 with Beethoven.

I am curious what you thought of Scherber's Lieder included with the Symphony 1 on the Adriano CD.

It was a bit hard for me to assess this because I found the performance rhythmically disjointed. Is there another better performance? Looking at the date of the performance in July 2022 it is entirely possible that pandemic related lockdowns inhibited group practices.

Musical tastes for or against different instruments are difficult to change. I do remember the Gary Karr tours. He was a particular favorite of Japanese record buyers apparently because Japan King issued an extensive series of audiophile recordings of him in the late 80s  and early 90s. I was a high school violinist so I am not as partial to viola and cello solo sound (as opposed to section ensembles which I like unreservedly). A little knowledge is dangerous I suppose. The viola and cello are rather undersized for the range of the instruments and I hear a slight nasality to the sound, particularly higher notes. But most people don't hear them that way. Ironically in spite of its size the double bass has a softer sound without much dynamic projection except on the E string.

We all have our preferences as well as things we like and dislike without being able to explain it too. But unlistenable is a strong term. Is it the sound of the instrument itself that you dislike or something about the melodies if I may ask. For me orchestral cymbals are unlistenable but they don't have much musical structure or melody.    

Regarding the "development" section of sonata I'm reminded of the joke that we have Time so that everything doesn't happen at once. Conceptually there is a certain structural relationship between Sonata form and an expanded Rondo form and composers used that latter form fairly often.

Going back to Bottesini, I hear enough variation of melodic and rhythmic elements in the Italianate style of his movements that I don't get bored with it, as I often do with less capable Italian composers.   And of course his double bass music is simply breath taking.

I think this is more of an issue for pop music. You have to always follow the money. Paying royalties is a big expense of streaming music. So "AI" (as it is currently very loosely and sloppily defined)  allows someone to generate music "in the style of" and avoid royalty payments. Any more positive use is just icing on the royalty cake. Since classical music is such a small percentage of music streaming it doesn't make any sense for those streamers to worry about it. I think the aspect stated above where printed music is played back through software is helpful but also no big deal. Playback software of scores has existed for over 25 years commercially and not really AI.

I agree about Sgambati and Martucci but at least they have a few dedicated threads here which is why I didn't reference them too. But the works of all 3 are not merely enjoyable but dynamic and exciting. A shame for their neglect.

Thanks for your reply. Yes pre WW1 Italian composers have a pigeon hole (opera) that they must reside in or they will be ignored by the critics and then the public. I understand that. Paganini is rather a special case. My question is why he seems to be ignored here too relatively speaking? I believe the LP you refer to has been reissued on Sony Essential Classics CD series wiih Ricci and Petracchi and Francescatti. The quintets I have are on SOMM with I Musicante while the Quartets are on Dynamic. I did not see the Quartets issued on Naxos or CPO. Do you have the citations for them?  I have seen CPO and  Naxos CDs of his orchestral pieces.

I agree on Bottesini's double bass writing; it is quite marvelous and light footed for  a double bass. But I can understand why classical audiences don't rush to hear them. Other than for violin, cello  or piano, concertos are unsung by major orchestras.

Obviously Giovanni Bottesini was a noted 19th C. double bass virtuoso. Unlike most such  instrument virtuosos, he wrote quite a lot of music in genres and for ensembles outside of his specialty. I have CDs of his string quartets and quintets along with a couple of his more well known double bass pieces. I started this thread because I was a bit puzzled by the relative lack of mentions here except en passant. As far as I can tell this is the first thread dedicated to his music. Is he considered not an Unsung or is there some other reason for the lack of discussion? To me while his double bass music is obviously a mainstay for that instrument, his other music seems to be invisible.I know he wrote operas as well but have not been able to find any recording of them except for the Ali Baba overture. If I have somehow strayed off the reservation with this thread feel free to delete.

Believe me I share your wish for Theriot and some others too  but I don't know what an enterprising label is in 2024, particularly for orchestral music. I am more familiar with the US but the pandemic was rather devastating for the classical music field here. Yes the few classical music organizations that are in the largest cities like New York, Chicago and LA are perhaps about back where they were in 2019 but even those have had losses in season subscriptions which is worrisome. The second-line cities like Detroit or Cleveland are starting to sink. The breakup of the Soviet Union created some openings in the 90s and 00s for cheaper orchestral recordings in Russia and Eastern Europe but those are pretty much gone for different reasons.

I would think some crowdsourcing vehicle is more likely than relying on labels which are facing a rapidly shrinking CD and download market. In the US, CDs are actually well below vinyl now in both revenue and units sold. Even more feasible IMO would be the transcription of these symphonies for well done computer playback. Given that many people now listen to MP3s on their computer or mobile device one need not worry overly much about audiophile considerations. Just my thoughts but I do share your concern.

I saw the old thread but missed the bio reference. So he was another Brahms! It's interesting how intimidated Austro Germanic composers were by past symphonies. I am trying to think of a similar example elsewhere in music history but can't off the top of my head. And yet composers outside of Austria and Germany were writing all kinds of symphonies without any cares. 

I get it that the harmony was more along Wagnerian lines. This is of course an initial impression but there was a kind of solid warmth occasionally to the orchestration that was characteristic of Brahms but more rarely of Bruckner. By solid warmth I mean a rather close integration from bass to treble of the orchestral sections.  Anyway I thought it was a good effort along with the Theriot Sym 5. I wonder why Becker did not write more symphonies.