Unsung Composers

The Music => Composers & Music => Topic started by: Double-A on Monday 26 December 2016, 15:06

Title: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Double-A on Monday 26 December 2016, 15:06
In an idle moment I downloaded the two sonatas for unaccompanied violin by Benjamin Godard from IMSLP and started trying them out on my fiddle to discover how they sound and how hard they are to play.  I have been practicing them somewhat seriously for a while now and got to know them and like them.

Both sonatas are in 4 short movements, no. 1 (op. 20) in b-minor (Prélude--lento, in free meter almost all the way through like a cadenza, Gavotte, Adagio, Minuet--the only movement where maybe the inspiration failed a little) and number 2 (op. posthum) in a-minor (Sarabande, Rigodon, Adagio ma non troppo, Bourrée).  They were composed early and late in the composer's life, but look like companion pieces all the same.

There is a recording of both of them on a CD called "The Hidden Violin" with Vaughan Jones (soundbites here: (https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Violin-Vaughan-Jones/dp/B00JVP080M/ref=tmm_msc_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1482739678&sr=1-1)) along with other late 19th century solo violin compositions.  As far as I can tell it has not been mentioned on this forum (it appeared in 2014). 

There are reviews here (http://www.thestrad.com/review/the-hidden-violin-godard-solo-violin-sonatas-no-1-in-b-minor-op-20-no-2-in-a-minor-sinding-chaconne-from-suite-in-d-minor-op-123-vecsey-preludio-e-fuga-in-c-minor-joachim-schottische-me/), here (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/godard-violin-sonatas) and here (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Jun14/Hidden_violin_FHR29.htm).

All of the reviews stress the influence of the 6 sonatas and partitas by J.S. Bach.  And the influence is obviously there in all the dance movements.  All three reviewers see Godard's works more or less as "under the shadow" of Bach, one even used the word "musically tongue-tied" to describe this.  I disagree with that judgment and would like to hear what others think about this.  To me the tongue is not tied so much as it is in cheek.  The music is delightful rather than ambitious and envelope pushing.  In that sense it seems to me much closer to Telemann's also delightful 12 "Fantasias" for solo violin than to Bach though Godard knew almost certainly nothing about the Telemann pieces. 

The tempo marking on the first movement of the second sonata for example is "Sarabande, molto moderato and pomposamente".  Observe that by using the adverb of "pomposo" Godard managed to add two more pompous syllables.  Can you imagine Bach marking a tempo like this?  The two adagios are more serious though and very beautiful.  All movements contain detailed if not always exactly consistent articulation markings, for example in the gavotte of sonata 1 where some crotchets are marked staccato, others tenuto, some quavers staccato, others legato.  There are also numerous dynamic markings, often asking for sharp dynamic contrasts such as in the Bourrée of sonata 2 where the theme is presented with the last and first quaver of the measure played forte and the semiquavers in the middle of the measure piano.  This creates a loud-soft-loud-soft switch every half measure (Jones appears to largely ignore these dynamics judging by the soundbites).  The sonatas also feature the deliberate use of open strings for sound effect (sonata 1, gavotte, trio section).  Bach has no such markings with the exception of forti and piani to mark echo effects in a few places.

Another important difference to Bach is the care Godard took to keep the sonatas playable.  While they require a sound technique they are not asking for many unconventional and/or uncomfortable fingerings; the vast majority of the double stops and chords can be played in first position.  The level of difficulty is held down for a decent amateur to play for his/her own pleasure if maybe not for performance (probably at least in part due to economic considerations).  Godard's two sonatas are about playing for pleasure.  Interpreters I think ought to feel free to use rubato generously, they ought to stress dynamic contrasts and obey the articulation markings--or if they do not want to follow all the markings slavishly they ought to find their version of spicing things up by means of articulation and dynamics.

Judging from the soundbites, which cover a reasonable percentage of the short movements Vaughan Jones is missing out on this.  He plays mostly quite slowly (often about in the tempo of Bach's corresponding dances), with little rubato, quite the way one would play Bach (which is why I ended up not buying the CD).  The reviewers might just have taken a cue from him.

To be complete:  The first sonata is also on youtube in a transcription for viola here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-87aD_6Ym8Q), played by Mikhail Bugaew (who is the author of the transcription).  This interpretation is more to my liking than the CD except the adagio is rather fast.  The pizzicati in the second trio of the minuet on the other hand sound a lot better on the viola than on the violin.  Also on youtube:  A recording of the adagio of the first sonata here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcaI1as6wuI).  This one is rather weak:  Way too fast and with unstable tempo, i.e. the fluctuations in tempo one hears appear to be random and unplanned rather than a deliberate rubato.

Finally I do think that while these sonatas are inspired by Bach's masterpieces they are very much part of another (small) "tradition" as well:  Imitation baroque music of the nineteenth century (romantic neo-baroque?).  The most famous example of this category is of course Grieg's Holberg suite.  There are also Respighi's "Antiche Danze et Arie" and there are unsung pieces by Raff as well as Spohr's "Historic Symphony" which expands the concept to include several historic styles not to mention the other pieces on the CD above.  All of these pieces are not true reconstructions of "ancient" music; they use modern techniques (modern violin bows for example that allow articulations that were inaccessible to Bach) and are more about recreating the spirit of the times as their composers saw it than about imitating outdated models.  I guess it might be a good learning experience to try and play the Holberg suite on 18th century period instruments...

BTW we had a little debate in another thread about how to call these works.  Godard made it simple:  He titled them "Sonate pour le violon"--when no other instrument is mentioned no other instrument is to be expected.
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: eschiss1 on Tuesday 27 December 2016, 04:41
Whether or not he knew any Telemann (and his generation- Saint-Saëns for instance- was responsible for the revival of interest in a certain amount of French Baroque music, so... ?...) - (one of?) his teachers, Vieuxtemps, was writing solo violin music before Godard was born (1845 vs 1849, though I don't know how Vieuxtemps' or other contemporary solo violin works "sound"...), for instance...
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Double-A on Tuesday 27 December 2016, 08:46
I didn't know about Vieuxtemps.  IMSLP has one solo work* (6 morceaux etc.), "divertissement" is on the list of works but the score is not available.
I still don't know how they sound (or "sound") but I looked at them.  There is some relationship to Bach:  The first morceau (andante) copies the rhythm of the first movement of Bach's C-Major sonata such that the music looks like Bach though probably doesn't quite sound like Bach.  No. 4 (?) called Tempo di Minuetto" is an actual minuet complete with trio.  No. 6 is a prélude et fugue and looks Bachian in both parts (runs of demisemiquavers and faster in the prélude, very difficult double triple and quadruple stopping.
The Vieuxtemps is out of my reach technically which confirms the idea that Godard kept things deliberately "easy" in his sonatas.

As to Telemann I'd think it likely that Godard knew about him, but nonetheless very unlikely that he knew about the "fantasias".  How many people know about them even nowadays?  When they have been published (Bärenreiter) and recorded (Grumiaux among others though I haven't heard a really convincing version)?

* Not counting etudes.  I am assuming Vieuxtemps etudes sound like etudes buy other composers/teachers.
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: matesic on Tuesday 27 December 2016, 13:59
Gulp - they do look somewhat easier than Bach's solo sonatas, but with any amount of practice it'd still be mostly torture for me and anyone within earshot. The violin is the best instrument of all for lyrical espressivo, so why anyone should want to put it through contortions better suited to the guitar completely baffles me.  BTW the Bach cello suites are great to play on a violin if you can get your head round the transposition. I play from Watson Forbes's viola arrangement and just imagine I'm playing a small viola (of course they sound a fifth higher).
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Double-A on Wednesday 28 December 2016, 02:29
For those who are not literate on several instruments and still want to play the cello suites on the violin there is (are?) an edition(s) for violin that does not require reading the C clef (e.g. here (http://www.musikhug-shop.ch/6-suiten-709729.html)).  I don't have them with me right now but I used to play them back in the day wen I still took lessons.  And it is true that they are rewarding though they sound much better on the cello or on the viola than on the fiddle.

I have to say though that the later suites, especially number 5 and 6, are hardly easier than the Godard if at all (and pose the problem with "torture" too).*

If you actually gave the Godard sonatas a shot (and some time to mature--at least for me it is essential never to rush practicing if I want to play acceptably) I am sure you'd find them more playable than you thought.  They are less hard than most of Spohr's violin duos (which often have three or four voices over extended stretches of music and require much more tricky double stopping than the Godard, yet lyrical espressivo is everywhere).  Double stopping and lyrical espressivo do not necessarily exclude each other (e.g. third movement of Bach's a-minor sonata--as well as both adagios by Godard).

*  I have always wondered why the suites--unlike any of Bach's other sets of pieces--seem to be arranged in the order of increasing technical difficulty.
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: matesic on Wednesday 28 December 2016, 08:07
The moderators must have been asleep to let that one go by, but to row back into home territory does anyone know of any romantic works for solo violin that play to the instrument's natural strength of cantabile ("in a singing style") and don't then launch into a torrent of empty note-spinning? One (accompanied) piece that springs to mind is Berlioz's Reverie et Caprice, although I'd have to admit it isn't top-drawer Berlioz.
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: matesic on Wednesday 28 December 2016, 10:54
Double-A will certainly not need informing that Mazas is one romantic composer who did write simple, cantabile music for solo violin. I'm looking forward to trying his 8 Melodies Opus 80.

Alternatively, here's a way of abusing your instrument that I hadn't come across before:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Adagio_religioso,_Op.2_(Soldan,_Otto)

You unscrew the frog, poke the stick underneath the violin and wrap the hairs over the top so you can play all four strings at once!
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Double-A on Wednesday 28 December 2016, 15:11
I was going to leave this alone, but I think the expression "empty note spinning" is mischaracterizing the Godard sonatas with its short movements that follow more or less the established patterns for dance movements.  You may dislike the way the fiddle is employed in them, that is a matter of taste, but these are valid and inspired compositions IMHO; only the minuet of the first sonata is somewhat lacking in inspiration.

There are of course dozens if not hundreds of romantic violin concertos (and cadenzas) that feature empty note spinning (Spohr very much included) but those sonatas are not guilty.

I also take some issue with your insistence on the violin's "natural strength of cantabile".  I'd say an oboe or a clarinet can do cantabile as well as a fiddle (if you take "cantabile" literally then even better:  Wind players work with the breath like singers).  It is the versatility of the instrument that sets the stringed instruments apart.  You can influence the tone with the bow (the whole spectrum from sul taste to sul ponticello plus speed and pressure variation) and with the left hand; you have many different articulations (at least since Tourte), legato, staccato, spiccato, ricochet etc.  Plus pizzicato.  Many of those options are not cantabile but they are perfectly legitimate means of expression for a fiddle.  This is not to dispute the beauty of cantabile on the violin, just to say there is so much more it can do too.

Thank you for pointing out Mazas op. 80; I had assumed (but it had never occurred to me to verify) that there was a piano included...  I'll definitely give them a try; they look quite hard in places too though, especially no. 8.  BTW the double stopping in some of the Mazas etudes is far from easy.  I have been practicing no. 26 and 27 on and off for years and still can't play them properly...

I had a good laugh at your other example. It is no coincidence that it appeared in the US, the land of snake oil salesmen (where I'll move back in a few months).  I believe the composer is lying when he claims to play the piece with the bow stick under the fiddle (and the hair over the strings of course).  He claims it explicitly; in the even funnier German introduction he claims grandly to produce "full sound and expression" that way though he admits it is "peculiar".  If you think about it you realize that no more than half the length of your bow hair will be available to play; the rest will have to stay unused.  Not enough to play a whole note in adagio.  (Or else you have to get your bow maker to put longer hair on your bow so you can still install the frog as usual--if there exist any horses with long enough tails...)  What is more there are plenty of three voice chords.  How you would get the E string to stay quiet with the hair going right over it I don't know; at best it would require some very subtle adjustment of the angle of the bow--with the stick and the frog unconnected and both in your fist.  But it comes even worse on the second page where we find a series of crotchets (3 and 4 voiced) which are supposed to be played with accents and every one of them on the down bow.  To retake the bow and to start any note with an accent is a physical impossibility under the circumstances.
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: matesic on Wednesday 28 December 2016, 16:29
Well yes, I was being a bit provocative about the Godard Sonatas but certainly wouldn't put him in the "note-spinner" category, so hopefully we can put that dispute to bed!

I will stick to my guns regarding "cantabile" however. I didn't mean to imply that the violin is inept at non-vocal forms of expression or that these are in some sense "illegitimate", just that many composers particularly of the nineteenth century seem willfully to neglect what I consider to be its chief strengths. Looking through the solo violin music available on imslp it's extraordinarily hard to find anything predominantly lyrical - too many notes! Ironically, most pianist-composers of that era seem to be intent on persuading us that a percussion instrument which is ideally adapted to play many notes extremely fast or simultaneously is also capable of cantabile! The range of attack, sustenance (if that's the right word), tone colour, pitch bending, portamento etc available to a violinist who wishes to consciously emulate the human voice I'd say is wider and more instinctive in its execution than that afforded by any wind instrument. Maybe inspiration and expiration are literally lacking, but one of the more useful tips I learned in my last orchestra was to breathe along with the phrasing (must remember to do it some time..).

Mazas's Opus 80 is as grateful to play as I'd expected, although hardly grate music. I didn't actually look too hard at Otto Soldan's masterpiece; I might be tempted to have a go only my Skylark violin was recently recycled as "sculpture"!
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 28 December 2016, 17:37
QuoteThe moderators must have been asleep

You're right there! Zzzzzzz...
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Double-A on Friday 30 December 2016, 14:55
I sightread about 70% of the Mazas op. 80 directly from the computer screen and decided I don't need to print them.  They are all cantabile all right, but the musical ideas seem curiously non-characteristic and resemble each other throughout the opus.  Also the individual "melodies" are rather longer than they should be.  Too bad; somebody made such a nice typeset of them (though he neglected to mention his source) a few errors with accidentals notwithstanding.

His etudes are definitely superior.  More contrast between as well as within the etudes, more memorable ideas, more concise compositions.  The constraints of etude writing seem to have woken up his creativity.  Just in the first volume I find 13 out of the 30 etudes that I consider good enough to be performed for an audience.

As to that percussion instrument:  There are "percussionists" around who can sing with all those hammers.  How they do that (there must be a physical, i.e. technical explanation) escapes me completely.  They are at such a massive distance from where the tone is generated!  But I say:  More power to them!

BTW I do think the two adagios in the Godard are lyrical or at least cantabile (not exactly sure about the meaning of "lyrical" in this context) in spite of the many notes i.e. double stops (at least they should be cantabile in a good realization).
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: matesic on Saturday 31 December 2016, 08:32
Mazas calls his Opus 80 "Mélodies" but they're formally more ambitious than that suggests. Four of the eight comprise two linked movements while number I at least is clearly in sonata-form. Without any accompaniment it's asking a lot of the violinist to make such extended forms interesting, and a little more bravura writing probably wouldn't come amiss! But I'd say he's attempting something rather unusual here - a classico-romantic take on the solo violin sonata while Godard's is neo-baroque. I'll certainly be returning to them a few times.

In spite of occasional mistakes (one being the estimated timing of 20 minutes!) I think Bernhard Köpfer's transcription deserves more credit than the one star some mean-spirited scrooge has given it!
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Double-A on Saturday 31 December 2016, 14:29
There is also the "Schottische Melodie" by Joachim.  It is on the CD that also contains the Godard sonatas.  The soundbite is part of the melody, simple and unaccompanied, not a single double stop in those 30 seconds (out of 2 min 25 sec).

A "Schottische Melodie" can also be found on IMSLP (http://imslp.org/wiki/Schottische_Melodie_(Joachim,_Joseph)), handwritten on a single sheet of paper.  It is the same melody but accompanied by means of double stopping (it would be easy to play as a duo without any double stops).  The melody is played once, then repeated an octave higher and with a different accompaniment.  It looks like a whole piece on the page with  the final one and a half measures scrunched together so as to fit the sheet.  But it seems more likely it is part of the piece on the CD--one variation of several. At the bottom of the page the following line:  "Jan 1916" followed by three words I can't read and then "Joachim in Göttingen, abgeschrieben von Walther Schultz, Student."  Not having tried it I am not sure but I'd say it is more difficult than the Godard.  In such a setting of a folk song any difficulty would have to be mastered to the point of sounding easy.

It is quite different from the Mazas but definitely not "neobaroque" (quotation marks because the term is generally used for composers of the 20th century). 
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: matesic on Saturday 31 December 2016, 15:11
The 7 minutes of concatenated excerpts on youtube sound to me more like a man doing battle with his violin than making it sing!
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Double-A on Sunday 01 January 2017, 03:01
I had never listened to it but did so now.  Those concatenations are usually awful.  This one is quite good at giving an impression of the CD.  It confirms what one suspects from the soundbites:  It seems too academic, presented like a research project rather than living breathing music.

You'd have to admit though that the violinist is winning the battle at least in a technical sense: no noises from chords, excellent intonation (only a couple of octaves are slightly off as far as I heard), no mishaps of any kind.  Unfortunately not much excitement either.  No risk taking musically or technically, cautiously slow tempi, avoidance of any extreme in dynamics, articulation or rubato, indeed only hints in those directions.  There is such a thing as too good taste.

The video includes the part of the Joachim that is on IMSLP and I find it rather pretty, not earth shaking but as an encore piece it would do very well.  I think one might aim to emphasize the melody more than it is done here.

BTW I agree about the typeset of the Mazas!
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: matesic on Sunday 01 January 2017, 08:19
It all sounds rather effortful to me, especially the nervous vibrato. In comparison I'd cite Ilya Kaler's recording of the six solo sonatas by Ysaye which I think comes close to ideal. Do three examples (of solo romantic violin sonatas composed by Francophones) make a tradition?
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: eschiss1 on Sunday 01 January 2017, 19:44
Hrm. Guénin's solo sonatas (http://imslp.org/wiki/3_Violin_Sonatas,_Op.9_(Gu%C3%A9nin,_Marie_Alexandre)) (with ad lib 2nd violin part; published in the 1820s) are listed as Classical at IMSLP, but maybe because of date rather than their style. Someone willing to take a performer-informed look at them and make a determination? They might fit too, if from the earlier rather than the later Romantic era...
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Double-A on Monday 02 January 2017, 06:40
I looked at this and played some of it off the computer screen.  "Classical" is definitely the correct assignment.
Very shortly therefore:  They are duos for students as mentioned on the title page.  The ad libitum second fiddle probably for the teacher and maybe also to say:  "You don't have a second fiddler?  Buy it anyway!"

Quite pretty and charming though.  But no part of a solo violin tradition.  Sorry!
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: eschiss1 on Tuesday 03 January 2017, 06:21
Ah well. Nothing ventured! Thanks!
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Double-A on Thursday 05 January 2017, 02:56
About this putative French solo violin tradition:

This is not an easy subject to research because of the prevalence of etudes, caprices, variations on popular themes etc.  I did some searching on IMSLP to find more evidence.  Unfortunately the search function on IMSLP is rather clumsy and additionally problematic because contributors do not always correctly categorize the entries.  Also of course:  Big as IMSLP is it is far from complete.

I went through romantic solo violin pieces and then looked at each composer with a French sounding name and checked out the entries.  Most of them are either etudes, caprices or else "methodes de violon".  Apart from a few curiosities (a volume of ways to imitate sounds on a violin for fun at a party for example) here are some contenders:

Alexandre Ropicquet, Le Divertissement, Thèmes favoris, Suite 2 (suggesting there is at least one more set of 6 "themes" around that hasn't made it onto IMSLP, published 1905)

Six themes such "Tyrolienne de Mercadante" or "Valse de Beethoven", each with a set of variations, sometimes with an introductions or a "finale".  Not too hard to play, but each set has at least one variation with serious double stopping.

Emile Sauret, Suite pour violon seul op. 87 (1907)

The suite features not a single dance movement, so I don't understand the title.  There are four movements, rather long and very hard to play, lots of notes (not as hard to play as the Ysaye I think, but as hard as the Vieuxtemps certainly).  The very beginning looks a bit like the first movement of Godard's second sonata and may be quoting him (identical rhythm).  The piece however is definitely not "neobaroque" in spite of being called a suite.

Taking all the examples we know of (the two examples above plus Vieuxtemps, Godard, the two other French composers on the "hidden violin" CD, and Ysaye) we get a "tradition" of seven rather diverse pieces or sets of pieces (Vieuxtemps, Godard, Sauret and Ysaye being multi movement works are more closely related than the others).  I ought to do the same exercise on German composers to have a "baseline" so one can see if there is something francophone about this.  But not now.

P.S.  This is pertinent to this thread in other ways:  Adolphe Herman, L'art de chanter appliqué au violon (1885).
It is in fact a compilation of short "melodies" from operas by Verdi, compiled with no accompaniment whatsoever, not even a single double stop.  A very quick way to make a publication.
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: eschiss1 on Thursday 05 January 2017, 04:21
Contributors/uploaders in general, btw, don't categorize the entries, strictly speaking- a for-want-of-better "tag team" does, and still not very well (I say this as one of the small group of semi-trained dedicated taggers there.) And of course it isn't complete; I used it as a guide/aide/for advice...

(Suites without dance movements are hardly a novelty-- are they? Titling is at root a matter of tradition rather than fixed rule in the arts.) (It seems as though some of Purcell's suites for example have just tempo movement headings, and at least one of Telemann's orchestral suites- this earlier than any of the composers in question.)
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: matesic on Thursday 05 January 2017, 08:44
I briefly ventured up a similar avenue to Double-A but it didn't lead anywhere very suggestive. Both Godard and Ysaÿe were taught by Henri Vieuxtemps whose chief teacher was Charles de Bériot. Throughout his career de Bériot wrote plenty of Caprices and Etudes for solo violin that may not have been purely for didactic purposes. As early as the 1840's Vieuxtemps published his 6 Concert Etudes Op 16, also presumably intended for solo performance rather than merely for practice, but that leaves 30 years until Godard's first Sonata came along. He waited 20 years before publishing a second, and Ysaÿe another 20-30 years before publishing his 6 with just a couple of examples cited by Double-A to fill the gap. Incidentally Ysaÿe quotes Vieuxtemps as having said "Not runs for the sake of runs - sing, sing!"
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Double-A on Thursday 05 January 2017, 10:56
There is clearly a tradition of etudes or caprices for performance and also as study material--in France maybe more than elsewhere.  But I think that multi movement works for solo violin is a genre distinctly different from caprices--more "serious" as opposed to caprices which are more on the salon side of the spectrum. 
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: eschiss1 on Thursday 05 January 2017, 12:30
Well, Germany/Austria would come close (I'd say neck-and-neck but at the risk of it sounding like a pun. Surely a set of solo violin "sonatas or studies" by Andreas Romberg, e.g. is one work falling under the same header too...)
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Double-A on Sunday 15 January 2017, 14:50
Here are the results from the search for German solo violin music in the 19th century:

Andreas Romberg:  Etudes ou III Sonates pour un violon1, op. 32 (already mentioned by Eric).
These pieces are not "neobaroque".  They are classified--correctly--as "classical" on IMSLP.  They are undated but were probably written or at least published after 18002.  Yet they all have two movements, a design one finds typically in early classics like Boccherini or Christian Bach.  However the pieces are harmonically more adventurous than those early composers.  The writing is generally homophone, double stops are used to play an accompanying line along with the melody almost throughout.  The demands on the player's technique are considerable. 

Joseph Heinrich:  Adagio für die Violine; eine Nachahmung der Harmonika mit losgeschraubtem Bogen zu spielen; also Quartett für eine Violine (published 1825; Adagio for the violin; an imitation of the harmonica to be played with the bow unscrewed [presumably with the frog detached] hence Quartet for one violin).
Otto Soldan had precursors it seems; enough said.

Friedrich Wilhelm Sörgel: Trois solos pour le violon (published approx.1820)4.
The three solos are Allegro moderato - Adagio - Allegro moderato.  They seem to be arranged to be played in sequence and might as well be called "sonata".  These pieces are largely in one voice; only the adagio has extended double stopped sections.  Pretty melodies but probably a bit too much passagework with the danger of getting boring.  Not "neobaroque" either.

Richard Barth:  Partita (1892, dedicated to Brahms), Ciacona (1908)
The titles already clearly indicate that Bach was the model here.  The partita has five movements:  1.  Adagio - Fuga, 2.  Allemande, 3.  Menuet I - Menuet II, 4.  Air, 5.  Gigue.  In Bach's terminology it would be a sonata-partita hybrid--Barth even the switches from Italian to French movement titles when the "partita-section" begins.  The ciacona uses rhythms and other patterns from Bach's model, but goes beyond it in virtuosity incorporating tricks like left hand pizzicato.

And there is Joachim's "Schottische Melodie".  Plus the many pieces by Reger.

So we have a series of solo violin pieces (other than etudes/caprices/cadenzas for concertos) throughout the 19th century, more often than not by "minor unsungs" (if that makes any sense; for myself I would list only Godard and Reger as "major").  If one wants to call this a "tradition" depends upon the definition of "tradition".  At any rate it appears that the challenge of writing music under such narrow constraints seems to have preserved its allure over the centuries.

To return to the Godard sonatas, the starting point of this thread:  What distinguishes them from all the other pieces that have been mentioned here (including Bach's) is how accessible they are technically.  To be sure they are not for beginners.  But I can play all of the Godard movements at near satisfactory levels while all the other works are hopeless.

1) It strikes me that a lot of non French music of the time was nonetheless published with French title pages (even by German publishers, e.g. also some works by Johann Benjamin Gross).  Anybody knows an explanation?

2) Comparison with publication dates of nearby opus numbers.

3) No. 1: Andante (sonata form) - Tempo di Minuetto; No. 2: Adagio cantabile - Allegro (free variations on an "Air de Stegmann"); No. 3: Andante (with a grave introduction feeling much like a cadenza) - Polonoise (sic).

4) On the work page in IMSLP one finds the word "hrm".  I wonder who put that there.
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: eschiss1 on Sunday 15 January 2017, 22:31
Me. Revision of 2 July 2012, 9:20 p.m. In the notes section.
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: matesic on Monday 16 January 2017, 19:11
Much as I respect Double-A's determined quest for a "tradition" of solo violin literature in the 18th century (my casual suggestion seems to have been thoroughly refuted) , I think he's over-generous even to admit Joseph Heinrich's Adagio for consideration. Why would anyone want to hear a violin imitate a harmonica anyway? At least Heinrich had the decency to mark it "con sordini", although how you could get more than one mute onto a violin also defeats me.
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: jonfrohnen on Monday 16 January 2017, 19:30
I remember uploading these 2 Solo pieces to IMSLP years ago, great they are recorded...too bad the recording is not very good :-(
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Double-A on Tuesday 17 January 2017, 09:18
Quote from: matesic on Monday 16 January 2017, 19:11
I think he's over-generous even to admit Joseph Heinrich's Adagio for consideration. Why would anyone want to hear a violin imitate a harmonica anyway? At least Heinrich had the decency to mark it "con sordini", although how you could get more than one mute onto a violin also defeats me.

I know!  But I could not not include the piece given that it is a "precursor" of Soldan's "work".  I thought putting "enough said" into that paragraph would signal sufficiently the less than serious nature of this particular contribution.
BTW:  The "sordini" may be explained by insufficient knowledge in Italian grammar (or alternatively in violin "technology"):  A companion to Schubert's moments musicales--but only in the area of foreign language skills.

On the other hand:  I know a serious piece where the violin imitates a bagpipe (unfortunately this piece is outside the remit).
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Double-A on Thursday 26 January 2017, 14:49
Searching for something unrelated I stumbled over the information that a recording exists of the sonatas by Andreas Romberg, available for download here (https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/romberg-3-sonatas-for-violin/id641404031).  The violinist is Yuri Revich.

I don't think the music is worth the purchase (unremarkable melodically, somewhat repetitive) but there are two (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN4owCTRUEM) "appetizers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYPGKSERTLM)" on youtube.  Technically the playing is impressive; in spite of serious difficulties it sounds relaxed.  Personally I don't like his rubato which obscures rather than enhances the rhythm, especially in a movement called tempo di minute (2nd example).

Anyhow:  The snippets should suffice as a demonstration that these pieces are not at all "neobaroque".
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: matesic on Thursday 26 January 2017, 19:54
Surely with dates of 1767-1821 Andreas Romberg has to be considered "classical" rather than "romantic", and his solo sonatas appear to date from about 1810 so I can't imagine he'd have been very interested in harking back to the baroque already. Amazing that Revich and Sony are taking such an interest in this repertoire - concertos too! I'll certainly be giving him a listen.
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: matesic on Friday 27 January 2017, 10:07
Two complete movements of the G minor sonata can be heard on yuryrevich.com but so far I can't find anywhere to buy the CD. Rather fascinatingly, Romberg seems to have one foot in the baroque and one already in the romantic camp. The opening movement (Grave - Andante) makes me think of Biber more than Bach, while the following "Polonoise (Polonaise)" definitely feels more romantic than classical and probably isn't intended as a joke! Revich is some fiddler - if Sony are willing to record him in this deeply obscure repertoire it beats me why they aren't promoting him in the warhorses too.
Title: Re: Godard's sonatas for solo violin--"baroque" music from the 19th century
Post by: Double-A on Saturday 28 January 2017, 06:32
I don't think there is a CD.  Download only.  There is a picture made to look like a CD cover.  But it is only 26 min of music.  The link for the download (https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/romberg-3-sonatas-for-violin/id641404031) (iTunes only as far as I can find but I am only moderately savvy on the web) is right below the two movements on the same page (http://www.yuryrevich.com/web/albums/sonates-pour-un-violon.html).

I started on a typeset; the music on IMSLP looks awful even for the early 19th century, so I thought if somebody--not me--wanted to play they might appreciate a better print.  I do think though that the music on the whole is only modestly interesting.  The third is probably the most interesting of the three--I haven't arrived at it yet so I only took an glance for an overview.  Listening to it I think Biber is indeed present in that first movement (Romberg, being a violinist, might even have known it);  the "Polonoise" would sound more dancy if taken a bit slower such that the characteristic rhythm (Tam Tada Ta Ta Ta Ta) is more clearly audible.  The first is more like Boccherini than any other composer I can think of.  The second has a second (and last) movement that overlays features of a rondo over a variation form (on an "air by Stegmann", a rather uninteresting theme) which is interesting.  But all of it seems to outlast the staging power of its material.