Unsung Composers

For anyone in the London area there are two performances of the Fritz Lang film Metropolis with a live symphony orchestra performing the original soundtrack. The composer is Gottfried Huppertz.  It is one of the biggest scores ever written for a film and anticipates later film music by giving each character and idea its own leitmotif. Having heard this music I can say it is some of the finest classical music ever written for film.  It is on at the London Roundhouse on October 10 & 11.

I would so much like to be there for that! The Huppertz score is wonderful, and it's too bad the recording that was made will likely never be released. But there's always the soundtrack on the dvd. In November, a new dvd/bluray is to be released which finally, after all these years, restores all (or most) of the missing parts. Someone found a print of the original in South America somewhere. Do you know what they're showing?

At the Round House they are showing the restored print with the extra twenty minutes and that means an extra twenty minuts of live music.  I believe they are also going to release the film in the cinemas with the extra footage and music.

Huppertz's music for the films Metropolis and Die Nibelungen are now available:

https://www.mdt.co.uk/huppertz-gottfried-metropolis-rundfunk-sinfonieorchester-berlin-frank-strobel-pan-classics-2cds.html (https://www.mdt.co.uk/huppertz-gottfried-metropolis-rundfunk-sinfonieorchester-berlin-frank-strobel-pan-classics-2cds.html) (2 CDs)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0127WVNMM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0127WVNMM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1) (4CDs!)

And please don't forget https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/gottfried-huppertz-zur-chronik-von-grieshuus/hnum/4135477 which, to my opnion, is as good as Metropolis and/or Nibelungen.
Strange though, I own a one disc version of Metropolis' music by Huppertz/Strobel. The new release has 2 CD's.... Has some new music found or being restored or what?

It seems to be the complete score:

For the first time on CD, Pan Classics presents the complete, recently reconstructed film score for Fritz Lang's silent movie Metropolis (1927): nearly two and a half hours of music, performed by the Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Berlin under the baton of Frank Strobel.
https://www.mdt.co.uk/huppertz-gottfried-metropolis-rundfunk-sinfonieorchester-berlin-frank-strobel-pan-classics-2cds.html (https://www.mdt.co.uk/huppertz-gottfried-metropolis-rundfunk-sinfonieorchester-berlin-frank-strobel-pan-classics-2cds.html)

Metropolis was recorded in full back in 2010, the CD release was just only released as a single CD of highlights. They are now (woo!) releasing the complete recording.

As for Die Nibelungen, that's been out for some years now.

QuoteAs for Die Nibelungen, that's been out for some years now.

Oh, quite. That's why I was bringing the thread up to date.

I hope I'm forgiven for noting that Gottfried Huppertz' score for Zur Chronik von Grieshuus (The Chronicles of the Gray House, 1925) has been released by PAN without the forum noticing. It can also be heard on Spotify. More information here: https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/gottfried-huppertz-zur-chronik-von-grieshuus/hnum/4135477. (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/gottfried-huppertz-zur-chronik-von-grieshuus/hnum/4135477)
It is a very different beast from Huppertz' famous scores for Die Nibelungen and Metropolis, befitting what is basically a dark melodrama. As a result, it is moody and introspective rather than ecstatic, but with some very good (romantic) music indeed, and as an isolated piece of music it works a bit better than his more famous works, I think.

My problem with all these scores is their 'bitty' nature; in other words, the question for me is whether a lot of bits of fine music actually add up to something worthy of repeated listening.

Thanks, Ilja. Listening now...

You are right, Alan. The music of "Metropolis" is, in my modest opinion, totally overrated. But it's an effective (and rather bombastic) "mood accompaniment", having many "empty" sequences based on primitive modulations with no real psychological, or additional contrapunctal interpretation of the image. A good example of a film soundtrack which cannot be listened separately - or, if ever, only in the form of an extracted/edited symphonic suite. I tried to listen to this "complete" CD several times, but always got bored after about 30 minutes. But together with the image it works.
As far as the DVD and BluRay releases of "Metropolis" are concerned, so far I was not able to get (of both) a clean copy without stops or jumps in the playing. Sloppy transfers. My own recording and DVD transfer from TV has not all this.
The newly found footage, now re-inserted, is disturbing, since, in comparison with the main bulk (which has been perfectly restored) is in really bad condition. They should have made this footage available on bonus tracks. Sometimes it's not a good thing to make "complete" editions if one has to make such compromises - and I am not sure if archaeological gimmicks of this sort make films better.
A similar case is Edmund Meisel's 1925 score to Eisenstein's "Battleship Potemkin". Many years ago I had planned to record this of CD because my (deceased) friend Arthur Kleiner, who had reconstructed this score, hoped so. But after having studied it, I changed my mind. In case, at least there would have been one advantage: the score is not as endlessly long as "Metropolis".

Well, I hadn't listened to any of Huppertz' film scores before and my initial impression was that this is attractive music, felicitously scored. And so it is, but after 30 minutes or so the extremely episodic and repetitive nature of it wears you down to boredom. It isn't intended to be listened to for its own sake and just doesn't work when it is. As I listened to the first few minutes I was expecting to disagree with Alan and Adriano, but you're right, chaps!

 8)

Well, after all this is film music. It's not designed to be listened to without the visual image.

I don't fully agree with you, Alan, since there is a lot of good film music by great composers which can - and should - be listened separately in the form of symphonic suites, of course. The lenght of a piece is not a meter for quality judgement; just consider Anton Webern, whose longest written piece goes for 10 minutes (Passacaglia op. 1, one of the greatest masterworks of the 20th century), or 6 minutes (Variations for Orchestra, op. 30) - and the shortest just  35 seconds. All works of a genius.
So you know why I have recorded many magnificent film scores. But they are by composers who were principally writing symphonic, chamber, theatre and vocal music, meaning that the artistic level was much higher - and they wanted to give a film good music.
That's how, for example, great British film music of the 1950s came to be written. It was Muir Mathieson who encouraged Bliss, Rawsthorne, Addinsell, Walton, Vaughan Williams, Bax, Ireland, Alwyn and others - because he knew that they would contribute with much more than a usual washy accompaniment. And it was always agreed that they should write pieces, some of which could be recorded afterwards (on 78s - all greatly conducted by Mathieson or by the composers), in order to make the music better known - and the films promoted. "Things to Come" is a famous example: it's symphonic music, good for the concert-hall as "Peer Gynt", "A Midsummer Nigth's Dream", or Fauré's and Sibelius's "Pelléas et Mélisande". Vaughan-Williams made a splendid Symphony of his "Scott of the Antartics" score, taking various cues and without even re-arranging them too much. You certainly know Ireland's "The Overlanders", Bax's "Oliver Twist" - or, the most famous and successful case of English film music, the "Warsaw Concerto". In France and in the USA we had a lot more of such cases, like Honegger, Rozsa and Herrmann!
All those 78s were an important part of my collection; I could learn a lot from them. And I never thought that one day I would be allowed to record beautiful pieces like "Baraza" - and "The Voyage" from Bliss's "Christopher Columbus"! Now these 78s are all in a public Library and I still enjoy my own private transfers :-) If anyone is interested, I can make copies of these 2 CDRs, but meanwhile many of them have been re-released on commercial CD.
And what about Shostakovich, Prokofiev and Khachaturian? Some of their pieces work even better if listened without some painful/embarrassing images! Hugo Alfvén also agreed to write film music, even if he was totally unexperienced in this field - and he produced two wonderful scores. In Germany, there was very little of such high standard because no leading and inspiring fugre à la Mathieson took care of convinncing great composers. In my opinion, only Hanns Eisler succeeded, and this with scores which were written in close collaboration with the film directors, so there were also sequences which were planned according to the lenght and message of a musical piece - as it was the case, for example, of Herrmann's "Citizen Kane" and "The Manginficent Ambersons" or Auric's "La Belle et la Bête". The latter is even more interesting, since Coctceat asked Auric to write something in this or that mood, by just showing him a (still unshot) scene's resumé. Auric went home, carried on composing, then the music was recorded and attached to an appropriately apt scene during the final montage only - of which Cocteau had not heard a note. Fellini and Rota worked in a similar way. Rota was sitting at a nearby piano during the shootings and Fellini asked him to improvise some piece after the composer had watched. If he liked it, he orderd that it should be completed and orchestrated - not always fixing a scene's exact minutage in advance. A very expensive way of working, which today would not be possible anymore!
(As far as I remember, Alan, I already reacted in a similar way to such a comment of yours years ago).

Of course, great composers can transcend the medium - I accept that. I enjoy 'symphonic suites', although they're not really 'symphonic'. They should be called 'orchestral suites'.

I wasn't really thinking of great composers, though. I was thinking of those such as Huppertz whose music just isn't interesting enough to survive on its own unarranged.

Otherwise, I agree with everything you say.

I think I do agree with most of what is said here. But there is a lot of attractive material here; I treat it like a sort of musical pick & mix when the visual image is absent, and that gets me through the day.

If film music isn't designed to be listened to without the visual image; the same goes for opera?

No, because listening to an opera one still has the words and music. Anyone who has attended a concert performance of an opera, where the visual aspect is present, but unimportant, can attest to that.

... and Opera on TV has its disadvantages too, sometimes. You have to see singer's stressed faces in close-up, making grimaces - or, due to a bad camera mix, you things which have nothing to do with what is being sung :-) Seeing everything from a spectator's seat it's still the most bearable :-)

One of the greatest operatic experiences of my life was Davis' concert performance of Les Troyens at the Barbican in London. And then there's the opposite problem of a visual staging which actually detracts from the overall effect - all-too common these days, in my experience.

I love concert performances of operas, even historic ones - this also because I have worked in an Opera House for 25 years, and had to deal so many times with stagings having very little or nothing to do with the original pieces, or with stage directors who just used the "work in progress" system because they weren't prepared, and had to deal with sceneries which they once agreed upon with the responsibles, a thing which very often is being realised 1-2 years before the actual rehearsals. A general concept has been discussed, in order to have the scenerie's construction started. Many stage directors just forget about it, travel around doing other stagings and come back 5-6 weeks before the rehearsals in question, to be confronted with imminent realities and a lot of unforseen details.
But there still are some serious directors.
Very "modern" opera staging can be exciting if a stage director has a thoroughly conceived conception and has the awareness of not damaging the music. We had "Lulu", "Pelléas et Mélisande" and "Die Tote Stadt" staged by Sven Eric Bechtolf - in a very daring way, but they worked perfectly and made a great impression (the first two are available on DVD). Sven always started rehearsing with the music completely in his head, without needing to consult a vocal core, he sometimes knew more and better than the musical staff involved. In these two cases we had a conductor who wasn't too seriously prepared either. Bechtolf could tell a singer exactly in what place something was to do, referring to bars and sung texts. A little memorandum book with notes sketches was always lying on his table, but he consulted it very rarely. He only had to succumb once, in a too special version of "Otello" (taking place in a kind spaceship), but this only because the three Italian stars involved refused to do what he wanted, so from the first day they started disputing and claiming, and damaging the working atmosphere. Iago revenged himself for having to stay there all the time due to his contract, and made himself fall ill the very morning of the première. He could not be replaced on such a short notice, so Bechtolf himself acted in costume - and a singer sang in front of a notestand from the stageside.
Live opera CDs of concert performances are much better too, since you do not have to cope with all kind of stage noises. Mozart's "Così fan tutte" with Solti, Fleming, von Otter, Lopardo a.o. - live (1994) from the Royal Festival Hall is a really exciting recording. One has the felling of just sitting there amongst the audience in a great atmosphere.
Suppose, Alan, we have to go back to Mr. Huppertz, but there may be nothing relevant to add...

*blink* you leave a joke like that hanging in midair ("Iago revenged himself") and then...? oh-- alright.

8)
Sorry, I should have written "he took revenge".
Here's a riddle: R. R. was that Iago, Otello was J. C. and Desdemona was the late D. D.
R. R. and J. C. insulted Bechtolf during the first reheasal already in a way I never experienced in an opera production. But Italians (J. C. is not) always pretend to know Opera better than a young German stage director who, incidentally, is a highly cultural and intelligent person - and a great actor himself.

R.R. (Iago) = Ruggero Raimondi; J.C. (Otello) = José Cura; D.D. (Desdemona) = Daniela Dessì; Zurich, 2002.

Riddle solved, I believe. Now back to Huppertz & film music... ;)

Bravissimo, Alan :-)
Apropos Metropolis: conductor Frank Strobel tells in an interview that "Huppert's music is note by note an exact specification what happens in the picture"; in other words "descriptive"- and later on that "the sound tells what happens on the image". Fortunately, the score of "Metropolis" does not degenerate into Mickeymousing, but in too many scene it's, in my opinion not "descriptive" at all but just abstractly bombastic and too dramatic.
"Mickeymousing" is a Hollywood terminology for music accompanying the action almost pantomime-like. A protagonist climbs stairs and so the music ascends etc. This procedure wasn't appreciated, since some of its composers (including Max Steiner) had used it.
A particularly self-conscient composer once wrote a rather soft Main Title music and just started a big crescendo with cymbal clash once his name appeared. He was fired.

Ha ha!!  ;D

Another typical Hollywood anecdote: They were shooting "Goodbye Again" ("Aimez-vous Brahms?"), to which music by Brahms had to be used (arranged by Georges Auric). One day the producer called his assistant, or secretary, asking him/her to find out Brahms's address in Europe...
-
As far as Huppertz's music is concerned, I just took the time this morning to watch the complete "Metropolis" film again. The music is too heavy, loud and stressing most of the time. Some very short lyrical episodes are original and well orchestrated, but do not build up valuable contasts. The most painful moments are where the composer uses the theme of "La Marseillaise", to underscore the worker's uprising. There is also a church scene, in which the "Dies Irae" theme is inappropriately (and cheaply) used.
As already pointed out, in many places the music does not really "describe" or not even tries to "counterpoint" the action. Leitmotifs are too often just endlessly quoted and re-quoted and not really variated and do not always make sense according to the image.
Still, this "Gesamtkunstwerk" show made a great impression at the time it was produced and does still do so today to unprepared watchers/filmgoers. Not to speak about the immense work the film itself had required and the avant-garde effects and tricks it contains.
As far as the score's rediscovery is concerned, the merit goes to Berndt Heller, who, in 1988, made a first (incomplete) reconstruction. He also conducted live performances and is being heard on the first VHS and later DVD recordings. The presently available "complete" version with Strobel was achieved in 2010. But Strobel had already conducted Heller versions of "Metropolis" over 180 times...

Hadrianus: no, no! I just meant it was just such an- Iago-esque thing for the actor who played Iago to do. Assuming you meant, as you seem to, that he did so outside the opera. All that was missing was for him to use the actor who played Othello to do so...

Quote from: hadrianus on Wednesday 11 July 2018, 08:10
Bravissimo, Alan :-)
Apropos Metropolis: conductor Frank Strobel tells in an interview that "Huppert's music is note by note an exact specification what happens in the picture"; in other words "descriptive"- and later on that "the sound tells what happens on the image". Fortunately, the score of "Metropolis" does not degenerate into Mickeymousing, but in too many scene it's, in my opinion not "descriptive" at all but just abstractly bombastic and too dramatic.

Allow me to heartily disagree with this. Although I do enjoy listening to film music sans visuals, you simply cannot measure it as such. There is a reason for Huppertz' excesses - Metropolis is meant to be hyperbolic, to show a larger-than-life image of a possible future. In that sense, the music is perfectly fitting.

Fitting, but unlistenable, then? Especially when divorced from the visual image...

I wouldn't be quick to put a "never" there; I've heard film music suites which, randomly shuffled into in my iPod (at the time) collection, I had no idea were incidental music (they were fairly clearly suites, but "film music" didn't shout out loud from them. The prelude, especially (but not only), to Benjamin Frankel's lovely score to "Night of the Iguana" (almost completely inaudible in the film, unfortunately) seems a good example. (Recorded on cpo.)

I was referring to the Huppertz as unlistenable...

Sorry about my yesterday's judgement, Ilja, but that is just what I felt watching the DVD.
In any case, my ears were tired, not my eyes :-)
I never wrote the music would not fit! I just criticised the style.
Frankly, to show a "larger-than-life image of the future" I would use music of a bit more transcendental kind :-)

But you need to remember that you're writing this with films like 2001: A Space Odyssey, Star Wars, Star Trek and whatever science fiction film in mind; science fiction is a genre that has developed a fairly specific musical style and has exercised a heavy influence on popular culture. Lang and Huppertz were pioneering, and went in a very different direction. And "unlistenable"? I wouldn't want to sit through the entire two and a half hours, but I think there are elements that are very successful. The title sequence music, for example (the first minute and a half) works very well with and without the image: visceral, exciting and very recognizable. But we can always agree to disagree, I guess.

QuoteI wouldn't want to sit through the entire two and a half hours, but I think there are elements that are very successful.

That's precisely the point. The only way this music can be listened to as music is if it is arranged.

"Unlistenable" is in the eye of the beholder. I personally enjoy complete film scores for what they are, and there is a community of film score listeners around that is much the same way.

At the same time, I would agree that most *complete* film scores will contain a lot of moments that more "throw-away", because they are more designed for what is going on the screen. (The same actually applies for other genres like ballet.)

For the concert hall, this is why a lot of composers who worked in film, made suites of film scores: hours of music designed for moving images, without the moving images, would not work with a lot of people. As far as recordings go though I'm personally glad to have "complete" versions.

I haven't listened to the Huppertz score in a while; from what I recall, it was pleasant enough, but I would not put Huppertz's score at the level of the top Golden Age Hollywood scores. At the same time, it's also a relatively rare example of a period silent era original orchestral film score, one that's probably more known than others out there due to the film it is attached to.

I do wonder if there are some silent film scores out there that are relatively better, but unrecorded (due to being attached to a lesser known silent film)... or perhaps some good scores that got lost completely like so much of silent film history has been. A few of my favorite film scores in more modern times were attached to mediocre to dud movies after all...

Quote"Unlistenable" is in the eye of the beholder.

Or the ear, maybe? Anyway, I'll wager that the vast majority of listeners wouldn't choose to sit through the whole of Huppertz's score - which was my point. Of course, there may well be complete film scores that are worth listening to - but on the whole the fact that 'suites' are often made for concert-hall consumption rather confirms my argument.

Silent films with great music scores:
"Cabiria", for sure! From which Pizzetti extracted "Sinfonia del Fuoco". There was a live performance in Torino in 2003. A DVD with probably the original music was once offered for sale, but disappeared from the marked within short time, meaning that I still miss it. I have only a version with new music by Roland Zag and Jiri Berdych (taped from Bavarian TV).
I have never seen a version of Pierre Malodon's film "Salammbô", coupled with the gorgeous music by Florent Schmitt. This project seems still to be realized.
I once studied the complete scores of Henri Rabaud's "Joueur d'échecs" and "Le Miracle des Loups". But I renounced to even extract suites from these, since the music is not really apt for separate hearings. "Joueur" (by the great Raymond Bernard, who also made "Les Misérables" with Honegger's music) and "Miracle" are both available in a 3DVD box, together with Bernard's "Tarakanova". All great films! Besides most avilable commercial issues, I have a collection of some over 100 more silent films, taken from TV or private collections).

We had a performance of the Metropolis movie with live orchestra here in Vienna. I did not know the film nor the music and was overwhelmed. I rushed to buy the Capriccio CD (1 h "complete" film music) - and listened to it only twice. In my opinion the music (which has many of the problematic qualities Adriano mentions, most prominent the repetitions) is really intended and appropriate to make immediate, great effect at the first listening during live performance in combination with the film. But repeated listenings (esp. on CD) lead to ultimate disappointment. In this way it is somehow similar to Wagner's rather simply tinkered Parsifal, where Wagner also assumed that the typical listener will only hear it once in his life in Bayreuth. This is also a work which collapses to nothing when you hear it more often (although not after the third time).

For anyone who has the slightest doubt about this film music or the film Metropolis, now is your chance to view it at London's Royal Festival Hall.  The original Huppertz score will be played by London's best symphony orchestra, none other than The Philharmonia. Metropolis is considered by most critics as one of the most profound and greatest films of the 20th c. It can be seen on Thursday June 10th at 7.30

QuoteLondon's best symphony orchestra, none other than The Philharmonia

They're a fine band, no doubt, but the LSO would certainly contest that claim...

By the way, I suggest that members read Adriano's posts earlier in this thread as he had much to say about the quality of Huppertz's music for Metropolis.

In any case, for those simply curious, you can hear the score for yourself here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQf1086SJW4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQf1086SJW4)

Personally, I couldn't tolerate this bombastic aural assault for very long...
...but that's just my opinion.

Quote from: Alan Howe on Tuesday 28 May 2019, 12:35
By the way, I suggest that members read Adriano's posts earlier in this thread as he had much to say about the quality of Huppertz's music for Metropolis.

But noone else's opinions on the matter are valid?

Of course they are. Alan only said that personally he couldn't stand this style of music for long. Others, and there may be plenty, may beg to differ.

Same goes for Adriano's views. He, at least, has studied the score with a conductor's eye, but that does not mean you have to agree with his estimation if you get pleasure from the music.

Quite. We'll said.

As others have said, it's just my opinion. But I do think we have remember that this is music intended to accompany a film, not stand uncut or unarranged as a concert piece.

Can anyone think of a film score which truly deserves to be heard on its own, in full, uncut? After all, we're talking about pieces that would last longer than the grandest of symphonies. And isn't it significant that most film scores are arranged for concert performance as suites?

To give you some idea of the scale of Huppertz's score, here's the list of contents on the Pan Classics/Strobel recording:

A. Prelude
1 The Metropolis Theme [1.01]
2 Machiness [3.31]
3 The Stadium [0.50]
4 The Eternal Gardens [2.22]
5 Maria with Children [3.38]
6 Machine Hall with Moloch [5.19]
7 Fredersen's Office 7.07]
8 Grot's Ideas – the Thin Man [6.40]
9 Freder in the Machine Hall [3.19]
10 The Car Ride [2.0]
11 In Rotwang's House [3.31]
12 The Machine Man [3.48]
13 Freder and the Machine [2.38]
14 Rotwang and Fredersen [2.37]
15 In the Catacombs [1.50]
16 The Legend of the Tower of Babel [2.47]
17 Maria's Srmon [2.43]
18 Freder and Maria – Rotwang's Plot [5.30]
19 The Chase [2.42]

B. Interlude
1 In the Cathedral [3.28]
2 The Thin Man and Georgy, a Worker [2.17]
3 In Joseph's Apartment [5.44]
4 Maria and Rotwang – The Fight [2.17]
5 Freder and Rotwang [2.17]
6 In the Laboratory – Transformation [2.53]
7 Freder and Rotwang [1.12]
8 Fredersen and the False Maria [1.15]
9 Freder's Delirium [1.42]
10 In Rotwang's Salon [1.03]
11 The Dance [2.17]
12 The Death [1.12]

C. Furioso
13 Freder and Josephat [1.46]
14 Josephat's Narration [2.57]
15 The False Maria [2.31]
16 The Incitement of the Workers [4.23]
17 The Workers' Revolt [4.37]
18 Fredersen and Grot [1.27]
19 Grot and the Workers [1.39]
20 The Heart Machine [1.44]
21 The Flooting [3.14]
22 Fredersen and his City [1.00]
23 Freder and Josephat [1.39]
24 The Flight [4.22]
25 The Rescue of the Children [1.31]
26 The Knowledge of the Workers [1.25]
27 Yoshiwara and the Masses [1.47]
28 Rotwang and his "Hel" [1.10]
29 The Clash of the Masses [3.03]
30 The Pyre [2.42]
31 Flight in the Cathedral – the Bell [1.38]
32 Flight on the roof of the Cathedral – Rotwang's Death [4.15]
33 Reconciliation [3.02]

That's 2 hours 24 minutes of music. Not for me, I'm afraid. But perhaps those who manage to sit through the whole score would tell us what they think...

QuoteCan anyone think of a film score which truly deserves to be heard on its own, in full, uncut?

I very much take your point, Alan. Right now, the only one I can think of that might come close would be the music Vaughan Williams wrote for Scott of the Antarctic, which does have a symphonic sweep and structure about it, though, perhaps unsurprisingly, I think the Sinfonia Antarctica is better as a stand alone concert piece

Exactly, Gareth Vaughan!
And I think there was no better judgement than the composer's.
However, for musicologist's interest it is always a good thing to re-record complete film scores, especially if their orginal soundtracks were badly balanced, had primitive microphone sounds or if there are musical sequences - or alternate versions - which had not been used and had landed on the cutting room floor. See, for example, my recordings of "Jane Eyre", "Beauty and the Beast" and "Les Misérables".
In the case of Vaughan Williams, musicologists may also find it interesting to study how the Symphony was conceived: which pieces were used, how they were adapted etc.. That's why I had wanted to do this recording myself in 1988 - but Ursula Vauhgan Williams did not give me the permission...

I just wonder who really listens to entire film scores - as opposed to arrangements/suites, etc.

I listened to Huppertz' Metropolis while doing the dishes, some vacuum cleaning and found his music pleasing and most of the time very repetitive. I agree that's not listening and concentrating yourself 100% on the music. I think many film music composers take one or two themes and toss them around to some lenght. Introducing variation after variation. And Huppertz can do this endlessly. So I woudn't recommend his scores for Die Nibelungen (4h 30 min) or Zur Chronik von Grieshaus (94 min.), both on Pan classics too, and very fine performances btw, to anyone who can't stand repetitive music. But, isn't Philip Glass in the same league?

We can't really discuss Glass here, I'm afraid - way beyond our remit.

QuoteI listened to Huppertz' Metropolis while doing the dishes, some vacuum cleaning

Very appropriate. I imagine the vacuum cleaner drowned out the bombast. But only just...

Alan, the fact that so many recordings of complete film scores are produced shows that there are many people listening to them.
And not all film scores are as long as "Metropolis". Some Honegger scores come up with just 20 minutes of music - except, of course, his two silent scores "Napoléon" and "La Roue" (made up mostly of non-original, but arrangements of repertoire and stock music pieces). Silent scores required thorougly running musical accompaniments. Honegger's "Les Misérables" (a 1934 sound picture) has just 60 minutes of music covering a trilogy of movies of 110, 80 and 90 minutes.
I really do listen to entire good film scores - because I can learn a lot also from this kind of musical genre - which I highly respect. I am listening to them also as a musician. Finally one must appreciate the ability of some greater (film) composers to create short and substantial "illustrative" pieces which work indipendently. And some of those good "entire" scores have thematic and dramatic build-ups - and their leitmotifs can show developments - or they are subject to variations.
Classic film composers like Prokofiev, Khachaturian, Shostakovich, Rozsa, Honegger, Walton, Bliss, Herrmann all came from the symphonic and theatrical field and not from the Hollywood factory, they knew what they were doing and were concerned to create good pieces of music, no matter how long they were. And they also orchestrated these pieces themselves (which was not required in Hollywood - not even by someone like Korngold!). And such good scores are really enjoyable if listened in entirety - even without the image.
Suites were created for concert and commercial performances (Just to mention the merit of Muir Mathieson, thanks to whom British film music became so successful because he started recording excerpts/suites already on 78rpm discs).
Good "symphonic" film scores are, for example, Jacques Ibert's "Macbeth" and "Golgotha". I did not record them in entirety because Marco Polo did not wanted this, but the selections chosen make up about 80-90% of the complete scores - and one can listen to them like listening to symphonic music - and discover thematic developments and contrasts - and different forms, like scherzos, adagios etc.
Don't forget that incidental and ballet music are based on the same "given duration" and "illustrative" conditions. Petipa clearly instructed Tchaikovsky how long about and of what kind of atmosphere each ballet "number" should be. The same goes for "Peer Gynt" and various incidental scores by Sibelius: some pieces had to be conceived as interludes, to be long enough to cover the time for dancing/pantomime or vocal pieces or stage changes. And many of those miniatures are masterworks.
And it's a real pleasure to listen to the complete scores of "Peer Gynt", "A Midsummer Night's Dream", to Tchaikovsky's and Délibes' ballets!

PS: Alan, I Hope it is not prohibited to answer Yaskovsky's question whether Philip Glass is in the same "repetitive league" with a simple "yes" :-)

Would you say the same about A Misummer Night's Dream or Peer Gynt?

I don't understand the mentality. Sure there's nothing wrong with suites -- and certainly I'd agree they work much better for concert use. But there are many film scores I wouldn't want to be without all of them. Either because there's just great variations of the already good material, or just really well written "action" music, etc. Now I will grant I can see in the case of Metropolis (as well as Die Nibelung) there's a decent amount of repetition and a good amount of what could call "dead" music (where just not much is going on) but it still feels like a narrative that has its ebb and flows, and yes I can sit through the whole thing just fine.

Incidental music is stage, ballet and film music - it is there to accompany a theatrical action - and eventually to emphasize or counterpoint it. And opera is related too, considering the period from Monteverdi to Verdi ("number" operas) - before it became symphonic (late Verdi, Wagner and Debussy). The question about "Metropolis" is a matter of taste. I actually mentioned much earlier that in connection with the image, this score works perfectly - and that I enjoy it. I just have a problem listening to it separately on CD.

QuoteI just have a problem listening to it on CD.

Because it's essentially one part of the intended 'Gesamtkunstwerk', i.e. a film.

Of course, greater composers than Huppertz, whom I take to be an epigone rather than an innovator, are able to transcend the medium. But I'd be surprised if there were a 2½-hour film score worth listening to on its own.

I have to admit that I have a similar problem with ballet music. I know that Tchaikovsky wrote great ballet scores, but do I listen to them frequently right through on CD? No. I just get bored...

All these comments but has anyone seen the film with the score played live ?  If not then it is like judging Wagner's Ring Cycle without the voices or staging.  The only really great film score I know of, is Shostakovich's for the Russian film of Hamlet. That is a thread that we dare not go down.

Well, that was obviously the composer's intention - which is what I've been arguing all along.

I don't think the comparison with Wagner stands, however, because Wagner's is patently great music by a great composer - which Huppertz wasn't. It is, after all, perfectly possible to listen to The Ring and imagine the action (often better than watching the absurd stagings one encounters these days).

In addition, Metropolis as a visual entity is an artefact in itself, whereas a Wagner opera only has indications as to staging, which invite interpretation. Thus, as I said, one can perfectly well imagine in one's mind's eye the visual aspect of a Wagner opera, but one has no such option with a film.

I do agree, though, that the optimum conditions under which to judge the film/score in question here is the full, live cinema experience. My hunch, though - and that's all it is - is that Huppertz's music in the final analysis is actually dispensable. The large number of attempts to produce an accompanying score surely bear this out:

In 1975 the BBC provided an electronic score composed by William Fitzwater and Hugh Davies.
In 1984 Giorgio Moroder restored and produced the 80-minute 1984 re-release, which had a pop soundtrack written by Moroder and performed by Moroder, Pat Benatar, Bonnie Tyler, Jon Anderson, Adam Ant, Cycle V, Loverboy, Billy Squier, and Freddie Mercury.
In 1991 the Club Foot Orchestra created an original score that was performed live with the film. It was also recorded for CD.
In 1994 Montenegrin experimental rock musician Rambo Amadeus wrote his version of the musical score for Metropolis. At the screening of the film in Belgrade the score was played by the Belgrade Philharmonic Orchestra - in 1998 the material was recorded and released on the album Metropolis B (tour-de-force).
In 1996 the Degenerate Art Ensemble (then The Young Composers Collective) scored the film for chamber orchestra, performing it in various venues including a free outdoor concert and screening in 1997 in Seattle's Gasworks Park. The soundtrack was subsequently released on Un-Labeled Records.
In 2000 Jeff Mills created a techno score for Metropolis which was released as an album. He also performed the score live at public screenings of the film.
In 2004 Abel Korzeniowski created a score for Metropolis played live by a 90-piece orchestra and a choir of 60 voices and two soloists. The first performance took place at the Era Nowe Horyzonty Film Festival in Poland.
In 2004 Ronnie Cramer produced a score and effects soundtrack for Metropolis that won two Aurora awards.
The New Pollutants (Mister Speed and DJ Tr!p) has performed Metropolis Rescore live for festivals since 2005 and rescored to the 2010 version of the film for premiere at the 2011 Adelaide Film Festival.
By 2010 the Alloy Orchestra had scored four different versions of the film, including Moroder's, and most recently for the American premiere of the 2010 restoration. A recording of Alloy's full score was commissioned by Kino Lorber, with the intention of it being issued on their remastered Blu-ray and DVD as an alternative soundtrack, but this was vetoed by Friedrich-Wilhelm-Murnau-Stiftung, which owns the copyright to the restoration and mandates that only their own score can accompany it. Alloy's score is available on its website and can be synchronised to the film independently.
In 2012 Dieter Moebius was invited to perform music to the film. For that purpose he produced pre-arranged tracks and samples, combined with live improvisation. He died in 2015, but the project was completed and released in 2016, as Musik fur Metropolis.
In 2014 the pianist/composer Dmytro Morykit created a new live piano score, which received a standing ovation from a sell-out audience at Wilton's Music Hall in London.
Also in 2014 Spanish band Caspervek Trio premiered a new score at "La Galería Jazz" Vigo, with further performances in Budapest, Riga and Groningen. Metavari rescored Metropolis as a commission from Fort Wayne, Indiana's Cinema Center for Art House Theater Day 2016. The score was released worldwide on One Way Static Records for Record Store Day 2017 and distributed in the United States by Light in the Attic Records.
In 2017 Factory Floor performed their own soundtrack at the London Science Museum as part of their Robot Exhibition. An album was released of their composition for the film in October 2018 called Soundtrack to a Film.
In 2018 flautist Yael Acher "Kat" Modiano composed and performed a new score for a showing of the 2010 restoration at the United Palace in Upper Manhattan.
In 2019 organist Nils Henrik Asheim composed and performed live an experimental organ score for a showing of the 2010 restoration at Stavanger Konserthus. Heavy modification of the organ was used to create a futuristic soundscape befitting the film.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolis_(1927_film)#Original_score (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolis_(1927_film)#Original_score)

@giles.enders
Of "Metropolis" there is an excellent DVD/BluRay deluxe edition of the (score's and film's last version) memorable live performance of Februray 2010, as conducted by Frank Strobel. There is nothing better than that: you have the best (home) seat, the best (home) acoustics, you are not disturbed by a chattering, coughing or chewing audience and you can stop and replay what do you want :-).
The microphones were placed correctly near the orchestra. Of course the picture comes directly form the new master.
A warning before buying it: the first edition by Warner Home Video was a defective transfer (both DVD and BluRay); at long last Universum Film has managed to obtain a clean and perfect print of film and sound! The elaborate bonus documentaries are super!

Quote from: giles.enders on Wednesday 29 May 2019, 10:48
All these comments but has anyone seen the film with the score played live ?  If not then it is like judging Wagner's Ring Cycle without the voices or staging.  The only really great film score I know of, is Shostakovich's for the Russian film of Hamlet. That is a thread that we dare not go down.

Man, Imagine someone coming along and stating "the only great classical music I know of is <whatever>". How would you feel if someone said that?

 :-\

QuoteOf "Metropolis" there is an excellent DVD/BluRay deluxe edition of the (score's and film's last version) memorable live performance of Februray 2010, as conducted by Frank Strobel.

Can you provide a link to where I can buy this particular DVD, please, Adriano? There are quite a few different versions on Amazon and it is not clear which of them is the one you mention.

A fine summary of the many available versions is on http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare7/metropolis2.htm

Agreed. My answer to the broad general question asked that ended "pieces that would last longer than the grandest of symphonies." is-- given that some film scores are rather brief, and that some late-Romantic symphonies (Mahler 3, Brian 1) are at around 105 minutes rather longer - er, no, sorry, nope, not so.  (And since you most certainly did NOT specify "Romantic" symphonies, the grandest of symphonies - not counting minimalist ones- extend into the 5 hour range, far longer than any film score I know. So wrong indeed.)

I didn't have to specify 'Romantic': that's our exclusive remit!! So my point stands, Eric: Huppertz's score for Metropolis is indeed longer than any symphony which we might discuss here.

"Can anyone think of a film score which truly deserves to be heard on its own, in full, uncut? After all, we're talking about pieces that would last longer than the grandest of symphonies."

Quite a few film complete scores clock in considerably <105 minutes (reread my comment!!!). If you doubt that Mahler 3 is a Romantic symphony, that's for another thread. That you were distracted by my last sentence about even longer symphonies, and that you did not stick to the Huppertz? Not On Me. That was not "your point" and can't be made so retroactively.

You completely miss the point, Eric. I was talking about the fact that Huppertz's complete score for Metropolis clocks in at just short of 2½ hours - which, as far as I know, is longer than any symphony that can be discussed at UC.

And yes, I did mean 'Romantic era' symphony as we do not discuss later music here. I would have thought that is obvious. I mean, we're comparing like with like here - i.e. Romantic-style music with other Romantic-style music, not Huppertz in comparison with Glass or Sorabji - but Huppertz in comparison with, say, Strauss, Mahler, Brian etc.

Of course, I accept that there are complete film scores which are much shorter. They would be much more listenable. But to repeat: the context of my remark was the FACT that Huppertz's score lasts longer than the grandest of symphonies (brackets: of comparable musical era/style - obviously) and that that makes for a very exhausting listen.

And with that, let's move on.

@Alan

Funny enough, I can't find this most recent DVD/Bluray version of "Metropolis" on amazon.co.uk
Look at amazon.de:

DVD
https://www.amazon.de/Metropolis-Deluxe-DVDs-Gustav-Fr%C3%B6hlich/dp/B07GRLHHY4/ref=pd_sbs_74_1/260-5800420-9770208?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07GRLHHY4&pd_rd_r=7157d547-8265-11e9-a88f-0353b2786e42&pd_rd_w=WkX4K&pd_rd_wg=WDHN4&pf_rd_p=74d946ea-18de-4443-bed6-d8837f922070&pf_rd_r=YVADK92JWNYAK8XRW651&psc=1&refRID=YVADK92JWNYAK8XRW651

BluRay:
https://www.amazon.de/Metropolis-Blu-ray-Brigitte-Helm/dp/B07GRLVRYS/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=metropolis&qid=1559170983&s=dvd&sr=1-1

This is the one for sure!
It is important to chose the 2018 issue, not the 2010 - or earlier ones. This can be found out in the product details.

But they have only German subtitles. Maybe UK/USA versions are still in preparation...

The latest stage of the film restoration includes additional footage found in 2008 in Buenos Aires. This footage is included in he DVD versions of 2010 and, of course, in the abovementioned new DVD/BluRay.
The quality of this recent footage could not be improved; which means that in the film, every time it appears, a different screen format shows up. There are not many, and they are very short. But the music carries on properly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03K0E_BgEKg
(there is no different screen format displayed yet, but it gives you an idea about the image quality)

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/05/movies/05metropolis.html
https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie-metropolis-2010-restoration-1927

In any case do not buy any German issues previous to the above mentioned 2018 ones. Either they are not "complete" as far as the footage is concerned or they are technically faulty.

Now about this UK/USA version (available on amazon.co.uk):
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Metropolis-Reconstructed-Restored-Masters-Cinema/dp/B0041SMF4Q
It has English subtitles! And a fine booklet, which the new (German) version does not have.

It could be recommendable, but it may be licensed from the earlier mentioned (German) version with unsatifactory image transfer quality, incorrect image ratio and incorrect speed. Of course all this can be realized by connaisseurs only...

This is the previous German issue which was critizised:
https://www.amazon.de/Metropolis-komplette-Film-verlorenem-Material/dp/B004DJ4Y1A/ref=sr_1_3?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&keywords=metropolis&qid=1559195010&s=gateway&sr=8-3

But it's already the latest "complete" 2010 version as far as music and image is concerned.

Thanks, Adriano.

To avoid confusion, I have deleted my previous post about the correct version to buy.

My fulsome thanks to both M.Yaskovsky and Adriano for their very helpful responses to my question. I shall consider carefully.