Rather a digression this, but indulge me, please. We've been in the USA for a few days, staying in a city with a world-class symphony orchestra. We went to one of its concerts whilst we were there and were treated in the first half to a satisfying mix of a familiar European mainstream work and a tonal symphony by a contemporary American composer who was there to take his bow. The second half was a blazing performance of a great, popular late-romantic symphony.
We're regular concert goers in the UK, our orchestra of choice being the really rather good City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra under the excellent Andris Nelsons. Generally speaking British audiences are less demonstrative than American ones, we do get some people standing up applauding at the end of a particularly good performance, but a true standing ovation is rare, although applause generally lasts quite a while and the conductor (particularly Nelsons) is usually recalled a gratifying number of times.
We've attended maybe five concerts by this particular US orchestra over the last half a dozen years, most of them with world-famous conductors, and we've noticed a definite change in audience behaviour. A standing ovation has become almost de rigeur, but it's coupled with an increasing number of people standing and immediately leaving even before the conductor has taken his first bow. Last weekend saw fully a quarter of the audience making for the exits whilst the applause continued, which not only totally destroyed the end of the concert for us, but also short-changed the performers. The leader, much more rapidly than he would have done in Birmingham, abruptly signalled the orchestra to leave the stage, even whilst the applause remained at what we would regard as healthy and entirely justified levels. Of course, it may be over-eagerness to get to the car parks ahead of the crowd, but that doesn't explain the same behaviour by both audience and orchestra at the end of the first half.
Is this now the norm in the US, or is it peculiar to this city/orchestra? Can our American concert-goers comment, please?
OK, Mark, comments from the Heartland. We've been season subscribers to the Minnesota Orchestra for over 50 years. There have been numerous changes, none of them much welcomed by me. And probably other old timers. Dress - in the 50's everyone was dressed to the nines including quite formal evening wear. Suits, ties, and few dressed more casually than perhaps a turtle neck and sweater. Today jeans seem to be the dress of the day, at least for younger audience members. But then that's true even of many fine restaurants. Young men love to wear their baseball caps indoors. I digress......
Yes, in the past couple of years, more or less, I have not attended a performance that didn't, at some point, receive a standing ovation. And much whistling, cheering and bravos. (and the same is true of such as high school band concerts, etc.....). With the Minnesota, perhaps it happens because in recent years under music directors such as Maestro Vanska our orchestra has matured so much that it's still hard to believe at times that they ARE that good.
And the race for the exits. It appears that many folks hate sitting and waiting to get out of a parking ramp (auto park) for 15 or 20 minutes so, yes, about a quarter of them make a dash for the doors to beat the crowd. Especially in the deepest part of Minnesota winter.
And of course, everyone has to be reminded to turn off their cell phones and pagers.....
Things ain't what they used to be.......
Jerry
I've been attending concerts in Boston since 1972. From my observation, it's always been the norm. I used to think it was because people were trying to catch the last commuter train to their suburban homes, until I found out that most commuter trains stop running out of Boston before the Saturday night symphony concert finishes. Many people leave as soon as they can because there are only a handful of parking lots in the area around Symphony Hall, and they want to get their cars out and on the road before everybody else leaving the concert does the same. I think it's also just mindless rudeness: they've heard their music, they've gotten what they came for, and now they're leaving. Audiences of the Boston Symphony, like those of many long-established orchestras (at least in America), are not uniformly made up of music-lovers. Many come to see and be seen, or because it's good for business, or because the tickets have been in the family since the turn of the 20th century. Classical music is considered by many prominent (i. e. wealthy) people to be a civic obligation as much as anything else. And it's a tax write-off.
... not that I said it was Boston ...
Yes, I think the rush for the doors is all about getting on the road instead of being caught in a traffic jam. It happens at all big events here in Aus.
Middle-class America is renowned for being polite and respectful (and especially in Boston! ;D) so it is very disappointing to hear that this is happening at concerts. It must be disheartening for the performers. But then, I think we live in an increasingly impatient world - nobody is prepared to wait, for anything! ???
Try the magnificent response to the Proms Gothic performance. I was there, I was there - and it was stupendous!
True, Alan, and the contrast between the audience that night, all of whom were there because of the music, and the mixed-motive Boston audiences described by Dafrieze is very clear.
Well, I must tell you that I envy and respect you Brits. Traditions is a word which doesn't seem to be in our American vocabulary......
Jerry
I will add, however, that this sort of behavior is only typical with audiences for the Boston Symphony or the Handel & Haydn Society. Benjamin Zander has an extremely loyal and enthusiastic audience for his Boston Philharmonic Orchestra, and they tend to stick around until the final curtain call.
Standing ovations are common, generally uncalled for, and have become meaningless. I see the exact same behavior you describe all over the place. Just last week I heard an ok, not great, performance of the Elgar violin concerto. As soon as it was over it was everybody up! Not me, and not many more seasoned (older) concert goers who have a long history of performances to judge better. And yes, people leave quickly to get to cars, train, bus.
Dress standards are non-existent. It's so discouraging to see people in street clothes or dressed like they're going to a party or orgy later on. But then, I loathe the way people dress on airplanes, too.
The absolute worst thing about modern audiences though it the talking, dropping of program booklets, cell phones ringing. A few weeks ago I went to see Gounod's Faust. A woman a few seats away took it on herself to describe every scene to her 8 or 9 year old son who didn't understand what was going on. Finally, one brave man told her quite abruptly to shut her g** d*** mouth or go home. It's getting rough out there!
Based on my experience, Americans will now give a standing ovation to almost anything. It has been widely reported that every night the audiences at popular Broadway shows give a standing ovation....ditto the NY Phil. The combination of some audience members racing out at the final chord while others jump up hollering to demonstrate their 'superior taste' creates a traffic mess in the rows that pretty much drives all thoughts of art out the window. Particularly galling when the idiot standing to applaud next to you was sitting there checking his text messages 20 minutes before.
Then there was the woman who took a cel (mobile) call during the soprano's mad scene at the end of Tsar's Bride a few years back... The people at Mostly Mozart who beat time in their seats every time there's a melody they recognize...
Aargh!
David
If people have to rush for a train, it is understandable. As teenager, I had to rush out of Proms concerts to catch the last train back to near Cambridge, and after one performance of 'A Child of our Time' missed seeing Sir Michael Tippett take a bow, much to my subsequent chagrin. But if people are driving it seems the height of rudeness to rush out, just to get ahead in the queues. Here in Japan, people tend to stay applauding (and usually seated) for quite some time. Rushing is considered a bit infra dig.
Here in Moscow standing ovations and tonnes of flowers and repeat curtain calls are de rigeur, but never seem forced. I think they reflect as much the esteem in which artists (and the intelligentsia) are held generally as they do admiration for any particular performance. The only other groups that match this esteem are war veterans and maybe some sports stars; politicans are certainly not respected.
Quote from: mbhaub on Thursday 01 December 2011, 02:05
Standing ovations are common, generally uncalled for, and have become meaningless. I see the exact same behavior you describe all over the place. Just last week I heard an ok, not great, performance of the Elgar violin concerto. As soon as it was over it was everybody up! Not me, and not many more seasoned (older) concert goers who have a long history of performances to judge better.
The problem with that is that once you remain seated whilst everyone is standing, you may give a quite unjustified impression of disapproval. As the mean shifts, constant values become mobile themselves.
Quoteyou may give a quite unjustified impression of disapproval
An excellent point, Ilja. We certainly felt the pressure at the end of the first half of the concert which prompted this thread. Neither the performance, nor the piece warranted the reception which it received. The end of the second half was different, we were happy to join the ovation, only to have people squeeze past us in their desperation to leave the hall.
Quote from: jerfilm on Wednesday 30 November 2011, 17:00
OK, Mark, comments from the Heartland. We've been season subscribers to the Minnesota Orchestra for over 50 years. There have been numerous changes, none of them much welcomed by me. And probably other old timers. Dress - in the 50's everyone was dressed to the nines including quite formal evening wear. Suits, ties, and few dressed more casually than perhaps a turtle neck and sweater. Today jeans seem to be the dress of the day, at least for younger audience members. But then that's true even of many fine restaurants. Young men love to wear their baseball caps indoors. I digress......
Yes, in the past couple of years, more or less, I have not attended a performance that didn't, at some point, receive a standing ovation. And much whistling, cheering and bravos. (and the same is true of such as high school band concerts, etc.....). With the Minnesota, perhaps it happens because in recent years under music directors such as Maestro Vanska our orchestra has matured so much that it's still hard to believe at times that they ARE that good.
And the race for the exits. It appears that many folks hate sitting and waiting to get out of a parking ramp (auto park) for 15 or 20 minutes so, yes, about a quarter of them make a dash for the doors to beat the crowd. Especially in the deepest part of Minnesota winter.
And of course, everyone has to be reminded to turn off their cell phones and pagers.....
Things ain't what they used to be.......
Jerry
Jerry, a friend of mine told me the other day that Osmo Vanska programmed the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra in Minneapolis not so long ago and during the concert interval he could hear from his dressing-room (which is above or near to the carpark) a large number of car engines starting up as concert goers fled rather than have to sit through the Bartok :( :(
On a related issue...I cannot honestly say that it worries me too much what members of the audience wear. I would rather see young people at a concert than not and if they are more comfortable in casual clothes then so be it. The same friend of mine ( who at that time ran a BBC Radio orchestra) was having a drink with me during the interval of a concert. He looked around and commented on the fact that almost all of the audience were at least over 50 years old and lamented that in years to come who would actually attend live concerts. When he caught sight of a small group of teenagers present he just about ran over to embrace them ;D ;D
What
really annoys me-certainly as I listen again now to the sober, restrained and informative BBC radio announcers' introductions to my old tape recordings, is the gushing nonsense spouted by so many BBC TV presenters before and particularly
after a Proms concert, when they invariably inform the viewers that they have just seen and heard
the most superb performance of a work. That is, of course, not always the case and, in any event, is a judgment which should be left to the viewers to decide for themselves.
Quote from: Dundonnell on Thursday 01 December 2011, 17:48I cannot honestly say that it worries me too much what members of the audience wear. I would rather see young people at a concert than not and if they are more comfortable in casual clothes then so be it [...] What really annoys me-certainly as I listen again now to the sober, restrained and informative BBC radio announcers' introductions to my old tape recordings, is the gushing nonsense spouted by so many BBC TV presenters before and particularly after a Proms concert, when they invariably inform the viewers that they have just seen and heard the most superb performance of a work. That is, of course, not always the case and, in any event, is a judgment which should be left to the viewers to decide for themselves.
Audiences should feel sartorially and socially comfortable when listening to any form of music - somehow, I don't think that any composer who honestly wanted their work to be heard would give two hoots if his audience dressed in dickie-bows, tank-tops or spandex boob-tubes just as long as they were relaxed and receptive to the music.
;D
The informative and often erudite announcements on the wonderful broadcasts from the 1970s and 1980s come to us as messages from another, dying world: the calibre of radio and television presentation and commentary today particularly at the Proms, but more generally on regular programmes such as
Afternoon on 3, has taken such a sheer nose-dive that it would be better in general if the current 'breed' of presenter said nothing, contented themselves with pressing the relevant button and returned to their skim-read of
The Ladybird History of Music.
>:(
Admittedly tangential, but I posted on another forum -
nothing is going to bring back Radio 3 as many members here clearly remember it as it existed in the 1970s and 1980s, when studio recordings of works such as Bantock's complete Omar Khayyam and Havergal Brian's The Tigers were undertaken, when announcers introduced a symphonic work by highlighting points of interest in terms of harmony or structure and when informed presenters were accorded respect by listeners for the very reason that they clearly were informed. The ethos in this period was not paternalistic, but assumed a common corpus of knowledge amongst listeners and sought to use this as a starting point for further exploration.
The slide toward mediocrity can be blamed on many causes - but the greatest is perhaps the general paucity of knowledge about 'classical' music in our culture generally. When you listened to Radio 3 about 30 years ago you sensed that it was aimed at an audience which had at least a nodding acquaintance with standard repertoire and so wouldn't necessarily be reaching for the off-button when you programmed the latest symphony by Graham Whettam, Daniel Jones or Arnold Cooke. It seems that the BBC now perceives a need to introduce listeners to such works as Beethoven's 5th or Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, and often in 'manageable' chunks lest the goldfish should mistakenly go twice round the bowl. ::)
Well said, that man ;D ;D ;D
I'm not surprised that there was a general exodus at intermission before the Bartok. I am surprised that he programmed it LAST on the schedule. Normally they make everyone sit through that sort of thing so they can hear the Beethoven 6th after intermission.
I guess the only slightly encouraging thing about such behavior - a lot of folks are familiar with Bartok........ :-\
Jerry
My friend told me that Vanska was upset :(
... I admit to some surprise this happened with the concerto for orchestra. I know that the string quartets encounter some audience resistance the last few times I've heard them in concert (in New York and New Jersey)... (and maybe still the 1st piano concerto, say, but I can't speak to that.)
but then, so has Alkan when Hamelin brought him here, too... (or at least, some after-concert overheard grumbling - if there was flight, I didn't notice it. )
Liszt's orchestral works suffered this fate often enough and I suppose Bartók who I think did admire Liszt might have taken some solace- maybe not.
Quote from: Albion on Thursday 01 December 2011, 18:46
........b]nothing is going to bring back Radio 3 as many members here clearly remember it as it existed in the 1970s and 1980s,
...... the BBC now perceives a need to introduce listeners to such works as Beethoven's 5th or Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, and often in 'manageable' chunks lest the goldfish should mistakenly go twice round the bowl.[/b][/color]
::)
Well said, indeed. This nicely describes the situation here in Aus. too, where manageable sound bites are all too frequent, and the works which are played in full tend to be Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaik. et al. and are broadcast during the off-peak periods.
One of my gripes is the habit here for many announcers to speak in soft, hushed tones which require the volume to be temporarily increased. Perhaps they think it indicates sensitivity and refinement (as it did with David Munrow, and certain other UK music figures back in the early 70s). The announcements on the BMB recordings are just wonderful, both in style and content, and after nearly 25 years in 'Straya, the accents sound aristocratic to my ears. ;D.... but as Albion says, those days seem to be gone forever. :(
Clap-happy audiences on their feet before the final bar has ended, for this is their star turn, and it's all done regardless of quality delivered, and despite all the coughing they've done during the music. Then comes the unending re-entries of performers who obviously don't want to rush to the bar. The conductor will suddenly act as if wanting all the credit to go to the others. Finally, the feigned surprise when the programmed bouquets are presented. We are locked into this ritualistic, enforced, uncritical adulation. We have no way left of demonstrating appreciation for an outstanding performance, short of invading the stage. A good audience will first stay quiet and still at the end of a stunning performance: oh, how I wish!
The flip side of all this-and I apologise profusely to those who have heard this story already:
At a recent concert in Dresden by the Staatskapelle under Christian Thielemann the orchestra began with Busoni's Nocturne Symphonique. At the end of the piece the audience responded with tepid applause.
Thielemann turned to the audience and announced that since this was one of the greatest pieces of music the orchestra would now play it a second time.
At the end of the second rendering the applause was, apparently, much more enthusiastic ;D
Now....opinions differ as to whether Thielemann was in fact berating the audience for their failure to properly appreciate the music or the orchestra for not giving a good enough performance ;D Some have criticised Thielemann for sheer bad manners ???
Either way however it is refreshing to think that either an audience or an orchestra can actually be brought to realise that not all is at it should be :)
Standing ovations are frequent at concerts in Holland (certainly in Amsterdam), and they can go on for quite some time. There isn't that much of a rush to get out of the hall at the end as your concert ticket is valid on the tram or bus for your trip home! Then there is the free wine offered at the interval! Of course on top of all these extras you have the Concertgebouw Orchestra or the excellent Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra playing. I rarely go home disappointed! Whether things will stay like this with the current govt cutting funding left right and centre we'll have to wait and see.
Quote from: mikben on Friday 02 December 2011, 01:23
Standing ovations are frequent at concerts in Holland (certainly in Amsterdam), and they can go on for quite some time. There isn't that much of a rush to get out of the hall at the end as your concert ticket is valid on the tram or bus for your trip home! Then there is the free wine offered at the interval! Of course on top of all these extras you have the Concertgebouw Orchestra or the excellent Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra playing. I rarely go home disappointed! Whether things will stay like this with the current govt cutting funding left right and centre we'll have to wait and see.
I am afraid that I have never been to a concert in Amsterdam but I have, twice, attended the Anton Phillipshall in The Hague. There would not be much chance of the audience there making a quick getaway at the end of the concert. Most of them appeared to be older than me.....and that's saying something ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on Friday 02 December 2011, 01:44
Quote from: mikben on Friday 02 December 2011, 01:23
.............Most of them appeared to be older than me.....and that's saying something ;D ;D ;D
Nice one, Colin! ;D ;D
These are the discontents of democracy. Such goings-on were unheard-of when audiences consisted of a nobleman's court.
no, then one could often not hear a concert, an opera comes to mind, at all for all the talking, rustling and whatnot between the big numbers (well, 18th century). I don't advise thinking it was so much or any better then. (And if that nobleman's court was Weimar in the middle of the 19th century, we're reminded that the intrigues might have made it rather difficult to really catch, say, some parts of Cornelius' opera The Barber of Baghdad at its premiere for all of the orchestrated whistling - to give only one example.
As often, I'll take now and work on the future :D )
Though there is a parallel to one audience-shaming technique that was mentioned recently, in something that was mentioned also in Walker's flawed (of course) but still interesting Liszt biography - Bülow's instruction (admonition!!) to an audience (presumably also mentioned in his recent Bülow biography) that it is not customary to boo in this hall (words to that effect). (Which also silenced the audience - but a few days later the press was the opposite of silent.)
Not everyone puts up with audience nonsense. Years ago, when the Met went on tour each spring and spent a full week doing up to 9 operas in Minneapolis, I recall one performance being conducted by Joseph Rosenstock who struck me as being quite a curmudgeon. He waited and waited for the coughing and rustling to end and when all was VERY silent, struck the first few chords of the Overture. Someone in the audience coughed very loudly and Rosenstock stopped the orchestra, turned in the direction he thought the cough came from and asked "Are you through??" And then proceeded with the opera......
Jerry
Bravo, Rosenstock! That's another thing...sometimes people have nasty colds and coughs. Why not just stay home? Don't subject the rest of us to your diseases and noise!
Regarding dress standards: Ok, it's the 21st century. Standards for dress are more relaxed all over. The LA Philarharmonic does concerts called "Casual Friday" where not only is the audience encouraged to attend casually, but the orchestra, too. I'm sorry, but Mahler and Mozart deserve better. I get it that it's the sound that matters, but when you have violins dressed like they just got off the beach, drummers dressed like they are going to Dodger Stadium and so on, it is distracting. And disrespectful. I went to that one Casual Friday concert, and that was it -- never again. There was one member of the Philharmonic, a horn player, probably in his 50's, who stood out because he didn't dress so casually -- coat and tie. Looked sharp. At least one player refusing to surrender his standards. And the Mahler 7th was magnificent!
What is this obsession with wearing casual clothes on every occasion? I like to dress up a bit and feel that it's an occasion. When I wear casual clothes at home or in the pub, I can appreciate them all the more for not doing so all the time. A teenage acquaintance of mine recently said 'why are older people always obsessed with being casual?', which made me smile.
I think that bad audience behaviour is not just confined to the concert hall, it is also the same in theatres and to a lesser extent in cinemas. The Americans are the worst, they view music and theatre like a circus act. I have seen and heard some very indifferent performances and had to witness rounds of ecstatic applause. In theatre, Americans applaud when their favourite actor appears in the middle of an act.
An announcement at the beginning of each performance to the effect of, please save your applause and comments to your neighbour until the end, might help.
Bad behaviour is not a recent phenomenon, I recall sitting at pantomimes when a child with men smoking pipes and cigars, not to mention cigarettes. The noisy eating of sweets and popcorn is a current irritant.
About the clothes the audience ware, I dint' bother to dress up at modern venues on the grounds that they 'don't dress for me'. The Barbican in London is like a peoples airport and The Queen Elizabeth Hall in London is offensive to the eye not to mention uncomfortable. The Wigmore Hall in London is a different matter, I always wear a suit with tie.
Having just turned 60, I'm now comfortably in touch with my inner curmudgeon and it's good to see that I'm in such plentiful company! :)
To go to the Royal Opera House I dress 'smart casual' (never jeans) - often because it's so hot that wearing a tie is just too downright uncomfortable. Living out in the sticks usually means an unseemly dash for the exit at the end so as not to miss my train - so I'm hardly ever there for the curtain-calls. To go to the summer Proms at the Royal Albert Hall I'm afraid I will often not take a jacket - again it's almost always so hot inside that personal comfort has to come first. From which overseas friends will note that air conditioning does not feature in my concert-going experience, so that how I look is a matter of some indifference to me - although I try not to turn up looking reasonably smart.
Finally, to attend performances at Opera Holland Park in London where my daughter works it's pretty well irrelevant what one is wearing because one ends up putting on a coat, scarf and gloves anyway during the course of the evening...
When I attended the Proms Gothic in July at the Albert Hall I wore a smartish jacket but, if I recall, no tie.
My nephew(well, greatnephew to be strictly accurate ;D) arrived to join me having spent the day paintballing or some similar warlike pursuit. He was very casually dressed; he prefers jazz and electronic rock music to classical music. I had persuaded him to attend, having lauded the Gothic to the skies. He was pretty tired after his active day and I was worried that he might nod off during the concert ;D
At the end of the performance he not only stood to applaud but turned to me with genuine tears in his eyes and told me that it was one of the greatest experiences of his life hearing such glorious music.
That sort of reaction meant more to me than I can possibly express in words. I didn't care what he was wearing, I still don't care what he was wearing. What mattered to me-and what I shall remember to the end of my days-is that a young man who had never heard a single note of Havergal Brian's music should react with such real, unfeigned emotion. I found that intensely moving :) :)
I don't think that these days I would say that smart has to equal wearing a tie: I think there are plenty of ways of making some effort to look presentable without a tie. But t-shirts should be reserved for home, in my opinion. In Tokyo it is not considered acceptable to wear t-shirts in town, though polo shirts are okay. Not that anyone would tell you so, but one can always spot tourists by their scruffy garb...
Still, I think what matters more is behaviour: the genuine Russian enthusiasm sounds great, but the idea the US that a standing ovation should be almost compulsory just seems to remove any value from the gesture.
Quote from: Dundonnell on Saturday 03 December 2011, 17:42
When I attended the Proms Gothic ...............
That's a great story, Colin, thank you - heartwarming indeed! :) :)
I am quite envious, as nobody in my family cares much for classical music. :'(
When it comes to dress at concerts, one might think that Australians - supposedly laid back and easy-going - would be very casual, but my experience is that they are mostly traditionalists in such matters and like to be seen to be 'correct'. As rather ratbaggish colonial subjects, the Australians consciously sought to outshine the Mother Country in its three characteristic features - bureaucracy, cricket and respect for tradition! So, we have 'graduation balls', 'school formals', debutante balls, etc, etc - all with due pomp and ceremony, and everyone in the most pretentious formal dress, even here in the tropics! Harmless, but very odd! ;D ;D
Quote from: mbhaub on Saturday 03 December 2011, 01:26
coat and tie. Looked sharp. At least one player refusing to surrender his standards.
There's another way to look at this. I, for example, think that the coat and tie look utterly absurd. It's absolutely ludicrous to me. I can't even fathom why anybody, anywhere, could possibly think it looks good, or that it has any logical sense to it whatsoever. The only two clothings I can thing of that look more stupid to me are the tuxedo, and high-heeled shoes. Wasteful, inefficient, and laughable-looking. I don't particularly care about fashion one way or another, other than thinking those three things are idiotic-looking. And wearing a suit is miserably uncomfortable, with absolutely no logical sense behind being so uncomfortable. It's just that almost everyone is brainwashed into thinking that it's just the thing to do. But why? Why can't people sit down and think about things that are "this is just how it is", and question them? WHY is this "just how it is"? Who thinks it's a good idea? Why does it look good? How can I be expected to enjoy or fully participate in any activity (or concert) when almost my whole attention is wrapped up in how miserable I am wearing such an idiotic-looking, inefficient collection of uselessly-piled cloth. I'm honestly not sure that I'd consider dressing up in a clown outfit to look any more ridiculous than the tuxedo. And I'm not just being facetious about any of this, I'm completely serious. I suppose I just tend to consider things from a very "clean slate" perspective, even things that are very well-established. And when it comes to clothing, I think notions of comfort and efficiency need to be given much higher priority than they currently are. I wonder what people 200 years from now will think of the suit&tie? I have a suspicion it will be looked on as good for a laugh, with much shaking of heads over the wastefulness of it all.
I don't know. Maybe this is the mindset that lets me listen to any piece of music by any composer, regardless of how "great" I'm told the composer is, and like/dislike it completely independently.
So what would you wear to a concert, or a wedding, or a funeral, Josh?
To be honest, I don't much worry about what the members of an ensemble wear, so long as the 'ensemble' part is to some degree reflected in the wardrobe. Some muted, dark colour generally works best in my experience; but don't try to stand out at the expense of what people really come for: the music. In that sense, a single coat-and-tie orchestra member is as much of a distraction as one wearing jeans.
Quote from: Josh on Sunday 04 December 2011, 05:55
Quote from: mbhaub on Saturday 03 December 2011, 01:26
coat and tie. Looked sharp. At least one player refusing to surrender his standards.
There's another way to look at this. I, for example, think that the coat and tie look utterly absurd. It's absolutely ludicrous to me. I can't even fathom why anybody, anywhere, could possibly think it looks good, or that it has any logical sense to it whatsoever.
............. Why can't people sit down and think about things that are "this is just how it is", and question them? ...................
Well, you're right, Josh, it's not a question of logic! There's absolutely no logical argument against a man wearing a dress and lipstick, for example. However, the way a person dresses
does send a message to others - a message based on dominant social understandings - and is often interpreted as a sign of their personal attitudes and qualities. In addition, "Clothes maketh man" was a common British saying, and it suggests that not only does the way we dress influence the attitudes of others toward us, but also that it can alter the way we think of ourselves and ultimately the way we behave. Having once donned a militaristic uniform myself, I can attest to that... and it is significant that every authoritarian regime around the world has attempted to regulate the way people dress.
Apologies for getting so far away from audiences!! ;D
Returning to the dress of the ensemble, I think I'm with Ilja. The players or choir members shouldn't be a distraction or stand out as individuals, so as long as they are uniformly and relatively soberly dressed then I'm happy. I sing in a choir where the men's uniform is a DJ (tuxedo). It wouldn't be my choice (it's very hot and constricting, especially in the summer) but we're an ensemble and I think it's right that there's no place for individualism there, any more than there should be within an orchestra. Soloists and conductors are different - the City of Birmingham Symphony's young star conductor Andris Nelsons never wears a DJ - always a black hip-length shirt/tunic thing and I've never heard anyone comment on it.
The idea of a "dress down" performance for the orchestra, presumably to reduce barriers to younger audiences, is an extremely shallow one, it seem to me.
What do I wear to concerts? It depends on who I'm going with and what I perceive the norm for that venue or occasion to be. Never a tie or a suit, sometimes a jacket and crisp shirt, sometimes just a shirt. Always trousers!
My original post was about audience behaviour, rather than audience dress: The US audience whose behaviour I complained about was satisfyingly mixed in age and I'd say that most older men were wearing jackets whilst the younger ones were still "smart casual". Almost every woman, young or old had dressed up.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Sunday 04 December 2011, 11:28
I sing in a choir where the men's uniform is a DJ (tuxedo). It wouldn't be my choice (it's very hot and constricting, especially in the summer) but we're an ensemble and I think it's right that there's no place for individualism there, any more than there should be within an orchestra. Soloists and conductors are different ...
My old piano teacher (alas, no longer with us) used to bemoan the wearing of white tie and tails thus: "it's like trying to play the piano while wearing a suit of armour!"
Returning to the topic of audience behaviour, a dramatic change was brought about in the mid-late 19thC, largely by Wagner and Bayreuth, prior to which there was constant coming and going, consumption of food and drink, conversation and general hubbub throughout performances. It was Wagner, as I understand it, who established an expectation that people would remain seated, and that there would be silence for the start of a performance.
As to the dress of players, perhaps formal wear has its origins in 18thC patronage. Having musicians dressed in expensive fancy 'uniforms' was a public sign of their patron's wealth. I imagine it became a norm, and that it set a standard for all ensembles/orchestras thereafter. But that's just a guess.....
Quote from: mikben on Friday 02 December 2011, 01:23
Standing ovations are frequent at concerts in Holland (certainly in Amsterdam), and they can go on for quite some time. There isn't that much of a rush to get out of the hall at the end as your concert ticket is valid on the tram or bus for your trip home! Then there is the free wine offered at the interval! Of course on top of all these extras you have the Concertgebouw Orchestra or the excellent Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra playing. I rarely go home disappointed! Whether things will stay like this with the current govt cutting funding left right and centre we'll have to wait and see.
The first time I attended a concert at the Concertgebouw was in the 1970s. Standing ovations became de rigueur from the 'eighties onwards, even when the concert was mediocre. I always remained seated whilst applauding, but as so many people stood up before me, they blocked my view and I had to stand up, too...
I was at the Proms Gothic, too. The unending (standing) ovation was wholly deserved.
P.S. Dundonnell's remark about the geriatric audience in The Hague is correct. ;)
During the past couple of years, in addition to concerts locally, I've attended orchestral concerts, chamber music and recitals, and/or opera performances in NY city, Chicago, Minneapolis, San Francisco, Boston and Atlanta. It is common to see people wearing casual as well as more dressy clothes. I don't really care what they wear. I always wear a jacket, but not always a tie these days. The exception is the Metropolitan Opera. I do not remember ever seeing anyone in casual dress at the Met and I would feel very conspicuous dressed-down there.
I too share the distaste for over-enthusiastic ovations accorded rather ordinary performances. One does feel odd, remaining seated, when surrounded by a standing crowd gushing over a routine run-through of a tired old warhorse. But I admit, over the years I have sometimes stood just to stretch my legs and prepare to leave after a tiresome concert, as I have long legs and am invariably cramped by the seating in these halls.
My most humorous and also distressing experience in this regard was a Saturday matinee performance in NY a few years ago. The first segment of the program was a positively abominable performance of Beethoven's first piano concerto by that showman, Lang Lang. I had to close my eyes during the performance in order to keep from bursting out laughing at his incessant swooning, swaying, and limpid star gazing. These days, a 12 year old student could perform it as well. But the hall was filled with elderly matrons, and the sea of blue hair rose as a wave following his performance, and then an exodus began as they filled the aisles. The crowd that remained for the Bruckner 9 was treated to a performance of surpassing excellence that deserved the standing ovation. Yet even then, many in the crowd began their exit immediately.
As for Thielemann's antic, I'd have got up and left. But actually, I would not have attended to begin with. Having sat through one concert in which he led the NYPO, I'll never do so again. What an unbearable a$$.
And as to Bartok, he now seems to be among the most played composers in the U.S. Every orchestra I keep track of now seems to include Bartok pieces on several programs each year.
I've often wondered about what will be required for classical music to survive in the concert hall. The sacred traditions of silent reverence by elderly listeners sitting placidly in a theater-like setting, while a group of musicians, all dressed alike in black formal wear, with ritualized arrival of the concert master, the tuning, the arrival of the conductor, the performance of musicians who show no emotion and barely move and never speak, singers and soloists often drowned out by the orchestra or sound levels so low as to be somnambulant ....
It is all quite archaic and pretentious.
And it is no wonder that it is a dying art form, as it refuses to evolve to engage the interest of today's listeners. Which is very sad, because there is much in classical music that could be enjoyed by all. But by forcing them to conform to ancient stylized rituals and deadening performance practices, it actively shuns newcomers.
Quote from: Amphissa on Sunday 04 December 2011, 22:31
The sacred traditions of silent reverence by elderly listeners sitting placidly in a theater-like setting, while a group of musicians, all dressed alike in black formal wear, with ritualized arrival of the concert master, the tuning, the arrival of the conductor, the performance of musicians who show no emotion and barely move and never speak, singers and soloists often drowned out by the orchestra or sound levels so low as to be somnambulant ....
It is all quite archaic and pretentious.
And it is no wonder that it is a dying art form, as it refuses to evolve to engage the interest of today's listeners. Which is very sad, because there is much in classical music that could be enjoyed by all. But by forcing them to conform to ancient stylized rituals and deadening performance practices, it actively shuns newcomers.
I am sure that if audiences want change, it will happen, but not eveyone among the younger generation wants to overturn tradition. It has its place - we are surrounded by it - by rituals, sacred and otherwise, archaic and emerging. Here in Aus., European traditions are generally enthusiastically embraced by young people, and not just those with European backgrounds but also by those with Asian backgrounds. I am very optimistic about the future of classical music, and especially live concerts.... but I am concerned by the soundbite approach and the concentration on a handful of composers/compositions.
:)
Here's a interesting observation about audience behaviour.....
When the VPO visited Australia recently, their Sydney concert was relayed to large screens in towns across Queensland, subsidized by the state government. Here in the (so-called red-neck) far north, the venue was packed out, the audience came in their normal concert-going attire, were silent at the usual times, applauded at the usual times, and even gave the screen a standing ovation at the end!
Respect for convention is alive and well! ;D ;D
As a former schoolmaster with a number of (now approaching middle-aged ;D) friends who are, in many cases, former pupils of mine I have sought over the years to encourage some at least of them to accompany me to an orchestral concert to experience the glories and delights of an orchestra in full flow :)
A couple of years ago I persuaded two of these friends to attend a concert in the Berwaldhallen in Stockholm given by the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra under Daniel Harding. The concert ended with a really super rendering of the Mahler 1st and, to my relief, the horn section did rise to their collective feet towards the close of the finale as I had assured my friends they would ;D
The Swedes go in for smart, casual attire and a gratifying number in the audience were obviously music students from local conservatories. Very few in the audience wore ties-the Swedes, in the main, eschew that item of 'clothing'. My friends were more casually dressed than I but that was what obviously made them comfortable and if we are to encourage younger people to attend formal orchestral concerts then that is maybe just what we older folk have to accept.
I repeat....I would much rather see young people at a concert than the elderly ladies and gentlemen who are there-in some cases at least-because it is part of the "socially accepted" norm.
Where will all this lead? If live classical music is struggling, I would hope that somehow orchestras and opera companies will take the lead of the VPO in Austrialia and the Met Opera and do something that is technologically now feasable: live feeds into our homes. If I could subscribe to the London Symphony concerts, or the Vienna State Opera, or the Berlin Philharmonic and have the concerts fed to me in HD video with 5.1 surround sound, I'd pay for it -- it'd sure save the cost of going there, I wouldn't have to dress up, there would be no talkers to annoy me. And I could pause between movements and grab another beer! Would enough people sign up to make it profitable? Who knows. But at a local theatre when the Met is broadcast, they sell out quickly.
Quote from: mbhaub on Tuesday 06 December 2011, 00:00
Where will all this lead? If live classical music is struggling, I would hope that somehow orchestras and opera companies will take the lead of the VPO in Austrialia and the Met Opera and do something that is technologically now feasable: live feeds into our homes. ..........
Interesting idea! I suppose it will happen, although it is a shame because staying at home rather than socializing is yet another nail in the coffin of our sense of community. I recall all those exciting trips to the picture house when I was little, and all the mayhem and fun we all had at the children's film, throwing stuff around, booing the baddies, and cheering the goodies, and being told to behave by the usher ;D ;D - hardly the same as sitting alone in the usual seat in front of the telly!
But I take your point - it would be very handy for those people who can't get out to a live concert. :)
I think there are already a lot of people who seldom or never go to a concert, but who love the music. And certain composers are largely only heard on CD or other recorded music, such as Bax or Stanford, concerts of whose music are very rare, though much of their output is recorded.
Quote from: mbhaub on Tuesday 06 December 2011, 00:00
Where will all this lead? If live classical music is struggling, I would hope that somehow orchestras and opera companies will take the lead of the VPO in Austrialia and the Met Opera and do something that is technologically now feasable: live feeds into our homes. If I could subscribe to the London Symphony concerts, or the Vienna State Opera, or the Berlin Philharmonic and have the concerts fed to me in HD video with 5.1 surround sound, I'd pay for it -- it'd sure save the cost of going there, I wouldn't have to dress up, there would be no talkers to annoy me. And I could pause between movements and grab another beer! Would enough people sign up to make it profitable? Who knows. But at a local theatre when the Met is broadcast, they sell out quickly.
I think the Berlin Philharmonic already does this, albeit not with every single concert.
I don't know if the Boston Symphony live feeds, but at least some of their concerts are available soon after, I think, not just as radio broadcasts but as replayable videos on wgbh.org (I found a link to a video of their recent concert of their performance of Harbison's 4th symphony at the station's website) - being able to rehear works like that at one's convenience, in an orchestra-authorized fashion at that, is a good thing too... though rather a digression to mention (sorry. Thought it was more connected when I started)
The BSO does broadcast live every Saturday night (if the orchestra isn't playing, they usually play recordings of the orchestra). Here's the website: http://www.wgbh.org/995/bso.cfm (http://www.wgbh.org/995/bso.cfm).
Quote from: eschiss1 on Thursday 08 December 2011, 21:03
I don't know if the Boston Symphony live feeds, but at least some of their concerts are available soon after, I think, not just as radio broadcasts but as replayable videos on wgbh.org (I found a link to a video of their recent concert of their performance of Harbison's 4th symphony at the station's website) - being able to rehear works like that at one's convenience, in an orchestra-authorized fashion at that, is a good thing too... though rather a digression to mention (sorry. Thought it was more connected when I started)
John Harbison has written a Fourth Symphony.....oh, and a Fifth too apparently ::)
That's the trouble with lists: no sooner do they get shorter than they start to expand again........... ;D ;D
His Sixth, a commission from the BSO, will be premièred at the end of their cycle of performances of his symphonies.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Thursday 08 December 2011, 22:25
His Sixth, a commission from the BSO, will be premièred at the end of their cycle of performances of his symphonies.
Oh....good ??? ;D
Pursuant to a bit of our earlier discussion, some of you will probably find this story very sad albeit a bit amusing. Guess this just happened....
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/classicalmusic/2012/01/alan_gilbert_stops_ny_philharm.html (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/classicalmusic/2012/01/alan_gilbert_stops_ny_philharm.html)
Jerry
Makes me think of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QK3GS8_3rs
Quote from: jerfilm on Wednesday 11 January 2012, 23:15
Pursuant to a bit of our earlier discussion, some of you will probably find this story very sad albeit a bit amusing. Guess this just happened....
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/classicalmusic/2012/01/alan_gilbert_stops_ny_philharm.html (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/classicalmusic/2012/01/alan_gilbert_stops_ny_philharm.html)
Jerry
Access "Forbidden" ... pity!
Oo-er. Symphony Hall in Birmingham (UK) makes an announcement before each concert and I notice that it prompts many people to switch off their mobile phones. Curiously, mine has five bars immediately outside the hall and no signal at all the moment I go inside. Maybe they've cracked the cloaking device technology?