Picking up on Tapiola's comment in the Finnish Downloads discussion.............. I've decided to gird my loins, grasp the nettle, and stand up and be counted! I confess .............. I really don't care much for Havergal Brian's Symphonies! ::) ::) ::)
Yes, I know that many of you good people, including Dundonnell, Herrenberg, and many others, adore his work, but I trust you won't send me to Coventry for this quirk in my musical sensibilities! Before anyone starts trying to tell me what I'm missing, I should point out that I have all the symphonies, and have been patiently listening to them on-and-off for 40 years, thinking that one day I might understand what it is that holds his fans in thrall, but without success. I've listened to the Gothic many times and it's OK but it doesn't really do much for me. I don't dislike it, you understand, and I am delighted that HB has his champions and dismayed by his neglect, but his music doesn't talk to me, doesn't move me in any significant way. (So, I was far more moved by Colin's wonderful account of his son's encounter with HB' music, than I have ever been by the music itself!)
I don't want to spark a 'for and against' argument here - I just wanted to reassure others with a similar view that they are not alone! As we've agreed so many times before - musical taste is amazingly diverse and long may it be so!
:) :)
Semloh, rest assured I would never think less of anyone for not liking music I like, particularly if you have tried so honourably to do so. All of us on here are surely frequently victims of disapproval for some of our music tastes, so hope we can all be open-minded. It's just interesting to see things the opposite way round: I'm usually the only person within a thousand-mile radius who likes Brian. His music definitely isn't everyone's taste and never will be, however much his popularity increases. Much the same could be said of Berlioz or Wagner
Don't tell anyone, but apart from the early symphonies they don't do much for me either. My loss, I know, but there we are. Something to do with his lumbering gait, I think. The music just doesn't flow. But the Gothic, that's something else. The RAH Prom was simply the greatest concert experience of my life...
I nailed my colours to the mast some time ago. I admire the Gothic, thought the Proms concert a wonderful experience, but I don't share the adulation for Brian's music which others have. My loss I'm sure and I'm really not saying they're wrong but I'm losing no sleep over it.
I hope this isn't going to become a thread for beating Brian with, though. I'm sure we all have composers we don't like on here, and surely it's better if we focus on talking about the ones we do like...
There should be no problem with posting negative reactions to Brian's music provided that they are expressed with care and courtesy - and preferably with arguments to back them up.
Interestingly, I have admired Brian since the first Aries LPs. I find his work difficult but well worth repeated hearings. My point is, after the marvelous group of CDs released in 2011 with more to come in 2012, I think Brian can no longer be considerd "unsung" or just a curiosity.
Quote from: Tapiola on Monday 09 January 2012, 10:57
Interestingly, I have admired Brian since the first Aries LPs. I find his work difficult but well worth repeated hearings. My point is, after the marvelous group of CDs released in 2011 with more to come in 2012, I think Brian can no longer be considerd "unsung" or just a curiosity.
My apologies if I seemed to imply that you didn't like HB - I was just thinking of your observation regarding the extent of the championship he receives here. I feel the same way as you about his status - the many years of neglect seem to be finally coming to an end. I suppose we will all have our ideas as to what makes a composer "unsung" and maybe these will be aired in a new thread in due course.
Thanks for the understanding responses to my "confession" .... I promise to persevere with the Gothic at least!
;D ;D
Would that all of our composers on the site get a Hyperion double, two Toccatas and two Dutton releases this year! I think Havergal himself would be stunned.
One thing that I greatly admire about Brian's music is that, right from the Burlesque Variations (1903) all the way through to Symphony No.32 (1968), it has the stamp of originality to an extraordinary degree and could not be mistaken for that of anybody else. His essential characteristics of discontinuity, orchestral virtuosity (to the point of awkwardness, in much the same way that some of Bach's vocal lines are written with the clear pre-requisite that the human voice should ideally be an instrument capable of reaching the same agility as a violin or an oboe), and essentially tonal (though often with grating dissonance) counterpoint are consistent throughout his entire output.
Probably because of his largely untutored beginnings, combined with the sheer bloody-mindedness of his personality, he seemed to emerge in the early years of the twentieth-century more or less pretty fully-formed with a highly idiosyncratic musical mind which then grew and developed in a fascinating way over his enormous creative career. Yes there is some Elgarian nobilmente in For Valour and In Memoriam, some Straussian orchestral wizardry (and parody) here and there, some Brucknerian monumentality occasionally, but there is a vast amount of musical thought, material and process that is well-nigh unprecedented. Certainly this is backed up by the extant vocal scores of By the Waters of Babylon (1905-09) and The Vision of Cleopatra (1908).
I regard him in all honesty as the twentieth-century Berlioz, thinking of the sharp juxtapositions of disparate-material, the blatant disregard of 'conventional' harmonic progression (a fabulous example the climactic, seemingly-random chord progressions towards the end of the first movement of Harold in Italy) and the reckless demands on an orchestra with no concessions for human frailty. The language of the musical 'text' used by both composers is different but the syntax of self-reliant originality is basically the same, but with Brian you also have a more obsessive interest in contrapuntal structure: as Malcolm Macdonald points out several times in his majestic three-volume survey, Brian often wrote quite logical, flowing (but complex) counterpoint and then proceeded to completely break it up as an aural experience by abrupt changes of orchestral colour and tempi. That he clearly took the deliberate decision to do this (and thereby obscure the relationships between different sections within the same movement) is a never-ending source of fascination: he presents us with his music and wants us to put some work in, to tease out his logic. If we don't want to do this I don't think he would have any other response but a wry smile implying "whether you personally like it or not, I wrote it and here it is".
:)
(I try to make it a point not to get miffed if a composer I cannot get, is getting to my mind, too much attention in some area of this forum, for too long a time; for it's all a relative thing, and composers who are very sung and who I cannot abide - and will not name (and who I have not seen named here, in some cases at all, I think- hrm, maybe once) - are doing, or their estates are doing, very well no matter what goes on here.)
Perspective.
Albion, you put it more eloquently than I possibly could: Brian brings me into a sound world I find nowhere else. However, I understand that precisely because his style, which is pretty unmistakable, is so distinctive, it is not going to be to everyone's taste, and is open to accusations of 'sounding the same'. If you don't like one piece of Brian, one can't really say "oh well, try this other one", as you probably won't like it either. Added to this is the comparative limitation of his output genre-wise: mostly orchestral, very little choral music (and what there is includes two symphonies), due to the loss of "Prometheus Unbound", almost no chamber music, piano works or songs and five operas which are almost completely unheard. So I do understand that he really is not everyone's taste.
Quote from: semloh on Monday 09 January 2012, 07:51
Picking up on Tapiola's comment in the Finnish Downloads discussion.............. I've decided to gird my loins, grasp the nettle, and stand up and be counted! I confess .............. I really don't care much for Havergal Brian's Symphonies! ::) ::) ::)
Yes, I know that many of you good people, including Dundonnell, Herrenberg, and many others, adore his work, but I trust you won't send me to Coventry for this quirk in my musical sensibilities! Before anyone starts trying to tell me what I'm missing, I should point out that I have all the symphonies, and have been patiently listening to them on-and-off for 40 years, thinking that one day I might understand what it is that holds his fans in thrall, but without success. I've listened to the Gothic many times and it's OK but it doesn't really do much for me. I don't dislike it, you understand, and I am delighted that HB has his champions and dismayed by his neglect, but his music doesn't talk to me, doesn't move me in any significant way. (So, I was far more moved by Colin's wonderful account of his son's encounter with HB' music, than I have ever been by the music itself!)
I don't want to spark a 'for and against' argument here - I just wanted to reassure others with a similar view that they are not alone! As we've agreed so many times before - musical taste is amazingly diverse and long may it be so!
:) :)
Colin(Semloh), just for clarification ;D It was my greatnephew that I took to hear the Proms Gothic not "my son"-I don't have one of those ;D ;D
Those who think that Havergal Brian is receiving a measure of extravagent attention should stay well clear of that other music forum GMG where the HB thread has now reached 190 pages and 3,799 replies :o Mind you it does tend to veer off on all manner of extraordinary tangents ;D
As Albion has so well put it, Brian is, for me too, a wonderfully unpredictable and fascinating composer and always has been. I share Alan's belief that the Proms Gothic was the most wonderful experience of my concert-going life. Brian certainly fully merits the exposure which is music is again enjoying, following the earlier 1970s broadcasts of the entire symphonic series.
But....yes, there is a 'but'...the later symphonies can be hard nuts to crack. I do "enjoy" the earlier symphonies more, particularly Nos. 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10.
I hope that I will give no offence by saying that the advocacy of Brian's music was sometimes in the past open to the charge that those who appeared fanatical about it had been seduced by the aura of "the old man" composing all those symphonies in an isolation which was far from 'splendid':
Brian contra mundum. This inevitably led some critics to react in a hostile way to the music and many of them still do. In reality, I sometimes think, the adverse reaction is not informed by actually listening to and studying the music-as
semloh obviously has-but by a determination not to give ground to those 'amateurs' who dared to challenge the established view. Thus the perception of people like Andrew Clements that, essentially, Brian-lovers are cranks.
Nor does it help when-and I suppose that there is an inevitability in this-people set composer against composer. As I have said many times before, I winced in surprise, pain and, yes, anger when I read in Malcolm's Volume II his disparaging comments on the "Cheltenham Symphonists". I will continue to champion Brian's music but never, I hope, at the expense of equally championing the music of a composer like Edmund Rubbra, whose symphonies touch a deep spiritual chord in me.
Quite. There are many composers I love who thought little of each other: Vaughan Williams/Britten, George Lloyd/Britten, Elgar/Stanford, and I reserve the right to love them all. And to dislike whom I please, though with respect. In fact, one of things I like about Brian is how he seemed to find a synthesis between the Mahler/Sibelius divide (the symphony containing the whole world versus the symphony as a glass of cold water) and also between the Elgar/Delius stylistic divide.
Quote from: Jimfin on Monday 09 January 2012, 14:05
Quite. There are many composers I love who thought little of each other: Vaughan Williams/Britten, George Lloyd/Britten, Elgar/Stanford, and I reserve the right to love them all. And to dislike whom I please, though with respect. In fact, one of things I like about Brian is how he seemed to find a synthesis between the Mahler/Sibelius divide (the symphony containing the whole world versus the symphony as a glass of cold water) and also between the Elgar/Delius stylistic divide.
As a teenager I used to argue for hours about the respective merits of Bruckner v. Mahler, Sibelius v. Nielsen, Walton v. Britten(yes, I must have been a rather odd "teenager") but, on reflection, that was all so silly. Bruckner's 7th, 8th, 9th and Mahler's 1st and 2nd all move me, so do Sibelius's 4th, 5th, 7th, Walton's 1st, Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem. I prefer Belshazzar's Feast to the War Requiem but I would take the Britten Violin Concerto over the Walton Violin Concerto.
We prefer one composer over another, or one composition over another based on our own temperaments and our own aesthetic responses. That does not make one composer "greater" than another ipso facto ;D
I think I fall in with Alan on this one. I first heard the Gothic years ago and thought, aha, another unsung composer to lighten my wallet. But his development didn't seem to tickle my musical sensibilities. I guess I've always been too much into melody and non dissonant harmony......
As for his being "sung" now, I expect that's gonna depend on where you are on the planet. Certainly his exposure in Britain and on CDs is marvelous, but here in the colonies I don't see it happening. I think the Minnesota might have played the Gothic once years ago. But that's about it. At least in this neck of the boondocks.
But recognition is an elusive and strange thing and often comes slowly. And so very dependent on who your particular music director is. I think I've mentioned this before, if so forgive an old guy. I clearly recall the first Bruckner symphony that I ever heard, the 7th, back in the '60s here in Minneapolis. And as I was sitting there immersed; mesmerized by this gorgeous music and thinking "Why have I never heard this man's music before??". about a third of the audience was slowly, one by one and two by two, walking out of Northrup Auditorium during the performance. But not anymore......
Funny how time changes things.
Jerry
No, the Gothic has never been heard in the USA :(
There was a plan by the conductor and composer Sir Eugene Goossens to perform it at the 1935 Cincinnati Biennial Festival but the Depression put paid to that idea.
about a third of the audience was slowly, one by one and two by two, walking out of Northrup Auditorium during the performance. But not anymore......
Funny how time changes things.
Jerry,
Just to be sure. Does this mean that people no longer walk out of a Bruckner concert or is Bruckner no longer programmed?
Dan
I don't think any US orchestra has performed the Gothic- that would be a fairly noticeable event- but according to my memory, backed up by Havergal Brian.org (http://www.havergalbrian.org/sym23.htm), the University of Illinois Symphony premiered the 23rd symphony. (And relatively major works by e.g. Weinberg, Holmboe and others have been performed each in both Canada and the US more recently, as in the last few years, but that's another subject entirely about the concert programming situation here as a whole and on average :) )
These comments remind me of an interesting story. Years ago, American Record Guide Magazine ran a feature entitled "Meet the Reviewer". It was a small paragraph depicting the likes and dislikes of the reviewers and one such article would appear every two months. This particular reviewer started by saying he was never really interested in classical music. He didn't hate it but he never became passioned by it until one day his wife gave him a copy of Prokofiev's Piano Concerto No.1 and told him to play it until he liked it. The rest was history.
Quote from: fr8nks on Monday 09 January 2012, 17:03one day his wife gave him a copy of Prokofiev's Piano Concerto No.1 and told him to play it until he liked it.
;D
To answer your question, Hemmesjo, I think at least one Bruckner has been programmed here in Minnesota for some years now. And generally to thundering, standing ovations (a subject we thrashed out recently in another thread......)
And I don't recall seeing anyone walk out. At least during the performance. Of course, a Bruckner symphony is always the last half of the program (if not, in some cases, all of it) and if some leave at intermission, I wouldn't know that. But they did the 7th a year or two ago and the place seemed to be full. And it was the whole program.
Jerry
Quote from: hemmesjo on Monday 09 January 2012, 16:12
Jerry,
Just to be sure. Does this mean that people no longer walk out of a Bruckner concert or is Bruckner no longer programmed?
Dan
They did one of the Bruckner symphonies here in DC a few years ago - it went as well as anything the NSO ever does. (Which is to say, tepid as usual.) Can't say as I enjoyed it very much, but that's my own personal taste speaking - I tend to prefer Mahler.
I was under the impression that the Gothic had never been performed outside the UK until the Brisbane performance in 2010. Unless one counts the recording sessions in Bratislava for the Marco Polo version. But I may be wrong
far as I know, that's right or most likely right, though I am no expert. Seems to be to the best knowledge of the Brian Society. See their page (http://www.havergalbrian.org/sym1.htm) (and note that the page lists -two- performances of part I only, not one, nota bene - this would certainly explain the tape recording I have, which is of part I only but does not match the timings of Grove in any way, but ends in a part I-ish "concert ending" approved way - D major chord- rather than in a way that suggests that it's a full performance that was just cut off by the tape recorder.) The second is a rehearsal and runthrough at Olave's School, Orpington, Kent, UK conducted by Mark Fitzgerald, but if it was taped, as I am now guessing, I for one am now much enlightened. (I have only the first movement digitized atm, but can get the rest so in awhile if I find the tape, I guess.) (It seems to be the last (1984) performance the Gothic had before the Lenard (1989), Curro (2010) and Brabbins (2011).)
(Yes, yes, I know, enough already.)
Quote from: Jimfin on Monday 09 January 2012, 21:48
I was under the impression that the Gothic had never been performed outside the UK until the Brisbane performance in 2010. Unless one counts the recording sessions in Bratislava for the Marco Polo version. But I may be wrong
Your impression is quite correct :)
Quote from: semloh on Monday 09 January 2012, 07:51
but I trust you won't send me to Coventry for this quirk in my musical sensibilities!
Somewhere closer to Stoke-on-Trent might be more appropriate and besides, Coventry is reserved for under performing fletchers.
As for the composer in question, it is all too much for my feeble brain to cope with. I cannot think of anything in life that would hold my attention for 100 or so minutes, apart possibly from the Darts on BBC2. When I did listen to the "Gothic", it took me a few sessions and a few pints to get through it.
Incredibly, looking at the Brian website, even an "introductory" talk on his music by a certain Malcolm Macdonald lasts an astounding 58 minutes. Lord only knows what a full version amounts to.
I am of course delighted that this music seems to give pleasure to so many, but I think I will give it a miss until I am retired, made redundant, or trapped for the nth time on the Dartford Tunnel approach road.
Thal
Ser, I love Mahler as well. He and Bruckner are SO different yet are probably my favorite "sungs"......
Well, as I pointed out earlier, what we hear in our individual concert halls is not necessarily what you and I (or the season ticket holders for that matter) want to hear. It all depends on what your music director (or Head Conductor or whatever he's called) wants to program. Vanska loads us with Sibelius and Part. For years I've begged them to do THE DREAM OF GERONTIUS before I die - and for 55 years they haven't. They always plead silly things like, we can't get the performers together. Which has to be BS. We have an endless (well, almost endless...) supply of choruses - the U of M, Bach Society, Minnesota Chorale, St. Olaf College, etc. etc. all of whom I presume are delighted with the opportunity to sing with the orchestra. So is it THaT hard to get, what is it? - 3 soloists for a week? I had high hopes when Sir Neville was MD but even he did not program much British music. Although he did conduct an Elgar 2nd that brought me to tears one night......
I ramble. Sorry
Jerry
Speaking for myself only my "confession" is that I started with the - hrm. Probably the 31st symphony because at 14 minutes it fit quite neatly between my classes (as did Prokofiev's 1st piano concerto and Barber's opus 1 serenade for strings, each also less or rather less than 20-odd minutes, and the music library was just down the road from my department - math). On becoming acquainted with that I started - on the late and much lamented Sir Charles Mackerras' LP* - I started wanting to branch out.
* (Yes, yes, it's a CD now - has been in several incarnations; I've owned it, thought I've lost it, bought it again, found it ;). It was around 1990 and the university library - yes, I'm one of those horrible (Ex-)academics, I was a junior or senior then - had the LP. :) ) May have happened slightly differently - with the longer - 55 minutes - 3rd symphony instead of no.31 (quite possibly, since the Hyperion CD of the former was recorded 1988, released around 1989? and I remember seeing it in the university library's "new release" listings and being curious what it was all about, especially its "C-sharp minor" bit- which always would make me think "I wonder how it ends?...", back then :) :) so of course- had to borrow it. You know how it is.)
** Symphony 3. (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/tw.asp?w=W1515)
Quote from: jerfilm on Monday 09 January 2012, 15:40
.....
As for his being "sung" now, I expect that's gonna depend on where you are on the planet. Certainly his exposure in Britain and on CDs is marvelous, but here in the colonies I don't see it happening. I think the Minnesota might have played the Gothic once years ago. But that's about it. At least in this neck of the boondocks.
But recognition is an elusive and strange thing and often comes slowly.
I think you've given a good example of why the notion of an "Unsung Composer" is such a fascinating one, Jim. It raises all sorts of interesting issues... perhaps that new thread is on the way! ;)
Eric - you seem to have done the sensible thing in going with the 31st initially, rather than doing what I did and start with the Gothic! ::)
It does seem that the Gothic is the one that moves people and represents the pinnacle of HB's symphonic achievements, it dominates evrything I read about HB and his music, and yet it is Symphony
No.1 ..... so, was it a case of an initial massive outpouring of genius (as some view it) and then (some might say) a half-century of less inspired symphonies? I can't really get a grasp of his musical development - it seems to all be in reverse! ???
Perhaps, the Brianites can put me straight on this..... ;D
and to complicate matters (a little; this isn't so rare...) it's his first completely surviving symphony (... if that; the full manuscript score doesn't. But moreso than the Fantastic Symphony that he once called his first symphony.)
"It does seem that the Gothic is the one that moves people and represents the pinnacle of HB's symphonic achievements, it dominates evrything I read about HB and his music, and yet it is Symphony No.1 ..... so, was it a case of an initial massive outpouring of genius (as some view it) and then (some might say) a half-century of less inspired symphonies? I can't really get a grasp of his musical development - it seems to all be in reverse! ???
Perhaps, the Brianites can put me straight on this..... ;D"
Oh dear ::)
It is far too late at night and there are others who can be more than relied on to reply at length and in depth ;D ;D ;D
For me, the Brian Symphonies (I'm speaking primarily of the symphonies after the 5th) are the equivalent of flying over a dramatically undulating landscape; once you've flown over you can recall that it was "dramatic" & "undulating," but none of the individual high points really stand out as memorable peaks...
Perhaps this was his intent - cryptic fellow that he was.
I do have a great affection for the first five, however :)
I loved hearing The Gothic Live (for the second time) and think that it is a great work. Even so the choral sections do take some perseverance IMHO, although I appreciate them much more now. I agree with Colin's selection of favourites No 6-10 but also have come to appreciate No. 2,3,16 and 22. Some of the others are indeed difficult to get hold of and I hardly ever play them (No. 11 is an exception).