I've just acquired the Wilhelm Berger Variations and Fugue Op. 97 on Koch Schwann and was knocked out by it. I love this form, and it got me wondering how many others there are (and how many others recorded)?
Discounting "Enigma" as wildly "sung", I also have multiple versions of the big Reger pair, the Helena Variations of Bantock, the Metamorphoseon by Respighi (love them!), the Chamisso set by Reznicek and the Parry Symphonic Variations (glorious) - and that's about it (or at least - all I can remember - I have a pretty large collection though....)
What chance of other Unsung sets of Variations coming my way?
Berger is one of the unsung greats, IMHO. And his Op.97 isn't even his best work!
I'm sure your opinion about what *is* is in another thread Alan, but I can't find it quickly. Remind us all? I'm very struck by him indeed.... although it will take us off topic in record time.....
Try his Symphony No.2. There's a decent download available here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?aw5ppd3c9k2701d (http://www.mediafire.com/?aw5ppd3c9k2701d)
Details here:
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1373.msg34866.html#msg34866 (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1373.msg34866.html#msg34866)
I can strongly recommend Otakar Ostrcils "Calvary", which uses the variation form to illustrate the passion of Christ. This work is interesting, too, for beeing rather a cycle of "Variationi senza tema", like Vaughan Williams wrote it in his (much later composed) 8th symphony, then a traditional "thema and variations" work. The opening makes me the impression of beeing not a theme in the traditional meaning, but a "deposit" of the main motives.
Then there is the "Don Juan" by Walter Braunfels, a brillantly scored variation work on Mozart's Champagner air from "Don Giovanni".
Is Robert Simpson to modern to be mentioned here? If not: He wrote some great variation pieces, foremost the 9th string quartet, containing 32 variations and a big fugue on a palindromic Menuett by Haydn, and the Variations about a Theme by Carl Nielsen for orchestra, where the possibilities of developing a theme, which uses four different keys simultaneously, are explored.
Does somebody here knows Hausegger's "Aufklänge", symphonic variations on a children's song?
QuoteI can strongly recommend Otakar Ostrcils "Calvary"
.... which just goes to prove how stupid I am as I have the Neumann recording on Supraphon. Duhhh... forgot that completely.
QuoteDoes somebody here knows Hausegger's "Aufklänge"
I'd be very interested to hear about that although my only experience of Hausegger so far has been the Natursymphonie which strikes me as being Mahler with a bit of Zemlinsky admixed - nothing wrong with that except I'm not on it's wavelength quite yet...... maybe the variations that Mahler and Zemlinsky never wrote....
QuoteThen there is the "Don Juan" by Walter Braunfels
Now that sounds great - the opera Die Vögel is simply charming.
QuoteIs Robert Simpson too modern to be mentioned here?
I'm guessing you'll get a good kicking for mentioning Robert Simpson from Alan or Mark - although I'll take the opportunity to say how much I love his Symphony 4, and hide under the abuse you might get ;D
The turn of the last century seemed to produce masses of variations: three lots by Hurlstone (Hungarian, Swedish and Original), Bantock's 'Helena' variations, Stanford's "Down among the dead men", Brian's [romantic] "Burlesque Variations", Parry's Symphonic Variations and some Enigma Variations by someone whose name escapes me.
QuoteStanford's "Down among the dead men"
I really meant purely orchestral as opposed to concertante works - there are quite a few in that vein. But thanks for reminding me about the Stanford - time to break out the Fingerhut/Handley disc - although I think I'll enjoy PC2 a lot more :)
OK, lash me with a wet noodle for mentioning this, but for a good "fun" listen, I still really like the Variations on a Nursery Tune by Dohnanyi.......no fugue..... 8) 8) 8)
J
@jerfilm - me too - and to think that the whole thing sounds so threatening to begin with! Definitely not a wet noodle moment - then out of all that gloom and menace springs a very innocent tune we knew from our cradles!
Of course, Dohnanyi! His two Symphonies both end with variations-and-fugue-movements!
One of my favorite forms, too.
Franz Schmidt was a master: Variations on a Hungarian Theme, the Beethoven Variations for Piano and Orchestra.
Dohnanyi: Variations on a Nursery Theme
Kodaly: Peacock Variations
Reger wrote several: on Mozart, Hiller, Beethoven
all well worth checking out.
It's a modern work, but it's basically tonal the whole way...
Ernest Tomlinson's Variations on Auld Lang Syne. A lot of people will hate it. But consider Peter Schickele's 'Unbegun Symphony' two and a half times as long with Auld Lang Syne strung throughout...
Let's keep to UC's brief, please. 'Basically tonal' is not enough...
There are the Arenskj's Variations on a theme of Tchaicovskj for strings orchestra.
Albeit for piano and orchestra Bax Symphonic Variations : I would say that in idiom they qualify (one year after "le Sacre").
Another concertante work (certainly romantic and unsung): Leon Boelmann Symphonic Variations for cello and orchestra (there is a Tortelier recording).
A "borderline" work: Nino Rota "Variazioni su un tema gioviale" for orchestra by Nino Rota (1953, but an idion more tonal than Poulenc's). There is a very recent first recording on Italian Decca (which I own; I heard the work in a concert once, decades ago, when Rota's music was in practice banned......on account of his alleged conservativism),
I have forgotten Respighi's orchestral Variazioni Sinfoniche. Also (albeit with a soloist) Adagio con variazioni for cello and orchestra.
Well, since I didn't get lashed for suggesting the Dohnanyi (and yes, what a GREAT tongue in cheek piece it is, in addition to having some very lovely melodies) how about the flip side of the old Lp which contained Siegfried Ochs Humorous Variations on "There is a bird a approaching" ?? Talk about a forgotten composer.......
Jerry
We all seem to have overlooked Josef Holbrooke. Three sets of wonderfully orchestrated and very witty (the first two at least) variations on: Three Blind Mice; The Girl I Left Behind Me and Auld Lang Syne.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 18 March 2013, 22:11
Try his Symphony No.2. ...........
I rate Berger among the best of the UCs, and his 2nd symphony is marvellous. The Adagio exemplifies all that I like about the romantic idiom - beautiful themes, precise orchestration, passionate yet carefully controlled, and constructed in a way that creates a sense of natural progression. :)
As to "Orchestral Variations", it seems to be a mostly 20th Century form, but there are still plenty that fit the brief of UC, even if we leave out concertante forms such as Arensky's spectacular
Variations on a Theme of Ryabinin, and Henselt's various enetertaining 'concert variations'.
Among the best, how about:
Bantock's
Helena Variations; [/li][/list]
Parry's
Symphonic Variations Amy Beach's
Variations on a Balkan Theme, Op.60 (orch.) , which is quite stunning, and for me the best work I've heard by her;
Kienzel's
Symphonic Variations on the StrassburgliedNoskowski's Sym. Vars on Chopin's Op.28/7 Prelude[/li][/list]
I don't know the Kienzel or the Noskowski variations, and would be very interested to hear them. Have they been recorded?
Kienzl's Symphonic Variations on the Strassburglied is available for download from this site here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1345.msg35915.html#msg35915). I have a recording from Polish Radio of the Chopin variations (actually titled "From the Life of a Nation") which I will upload shortly.
I've now uploaded the radio recording of Noskowski's Symphonic Variations "Z zycia narodu (From the Life of a Nation)" on Chopin's Prelude in A op.28 no.7 here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,4211.msg44780.html#new). I had quite forgotten about this attractive work, which is symphonic both in its scale (it's almost 33 minutes long) and in its structure: after a substantial introduction, and a statement of Chopin's theme, the variations are grouped into clear sections which share roughly the same tempo, as if in a through-composed symphony. To my ear, though, the character of the work is more reminiscent of the large scale ballets of Tchaikovsky than of one of Noskowski's own symphonies. An interesting piece.
Quote from: semloh on Wednesday 20 March 2013, 04:07As to "Orchestral Variations", it seems to be a mostly 20th Century form, but there are still plenty that fit the brief of UC...
What? How about the Variations on an Original Theme by Dvorak? That's just for starters...
unsung are also Variations for Symphony Orchestra by Artur Malawski - uploaded to UC some time ago
QuoteI've now uploaded the radio recording of Noskowski's Symphonic Variations "Z zycia narodu (From the Life of a Nation)" on Chopin's Prelude in A op.28 no.7
Thank you very much, Mark.
Excellent - already some intriguing suggestions - and a few I have but had forgotten about. Thank you all (but don't stop if there are more :) ) Meanwhile - Berger 2 sounds like it's worth chasing down...
I would recommend Walter Braunfels's Phantastische Erscheinungen eines Themas von Hector Berlioz ... not the only work he wrote in this form, but the only one I have heard.
Berger. Berger. Berger. The right man at the right time for the job.
The fact that Reger, bless him, is better known, is part of the sheer mischief that occurred when the ideals of Western Culture collapsed post 1914. Reger was a powerful composer, but in my view Berger is the true master.
Berger's music is certainly more easily digestible than Reger's, but I wouldn't be without the best of the latter. However, the relative neglect of the older master is nothing short of a scandal. Why the symphonies haven't been done is beyond me. As far as commercially unrecorded symphonies are concerned, these must be among the most deserving of preservation on CD. Along with the last three by Abert, that is.
Delius Variations on an Old Slave Song - Appalachia. That is a big and ambitious set of variations.
Poor old Delius must rank as unsung these days. Though there is singing in Appalachia!
Quote from: Pickler_MZ on Sunday 31 March 2013, 13:34
Delius Variations on an Old Slave Song - Appalachia. That is a big and ambitious set of variations.
Poor old Delius must rank as unsung these days. Though there is singing in Appalachia!
I'm not sure about live performance in Europe or N. America, although a quick scan of the web suggests Delius is not neglected. His music certainly gets played and discussed here in Australia as much as any other British composer, and the CD listings are pretty generous. That said, personally I would regard his music as being in the impressionistic rather than romantic style as per UC, although Appalachia does just scrape in as a 19thC example of purely orchestral variations - which still seem few and far between.
No, Delius is definitely sung. Quite why though is another matter - I've just resurrected a very old thread in which I nominate him as possibly the only composer I don't get at all.
Nicodé's set, and Koessler's 1901-published symphonic variations in C-sharp minor...
One can find sets at IMSLP from the Romantic era by Franz Kessel (published 1896), Richard Heuberger (Schubert-variations for small orchestra, pub.1880)...
Hrm. Few and far between- well, in comparison to the loads of concertante variations one finds published just in the years 1830-1833 in HMB, say, and I'm guessing in most years of the earlyish Romantic period, compared to those, published purely-orchestral variations... yes. (Ah, I forgot Wilhelm Taubert's variations Op.161, though they exist in piano-duet form too, I think, though I think orchestrated- or vice-vers'- by the composer. Still, if that leaves them out, then bye-bye Brahms Op.56 too (well, not just on grounds of not being unsung, I mean...))
If we're going to include movements of other works, there's also Heinrich Esser's suite no.2 in A minor (op.66) for orchestra (pub.1866) whose third movement is a theme and variations, and the first movement of Cui's Op.38... (and has anyone mentioned the penultimate movement of the Raff In Thuringia suite, at that...?)
Also: Octave Fouque (Fouqué?) : Variations symphoniques sur un Air béarnais p. Orch. (Introduction et Thème. Andantino, Pizzicato. Danse rustique. Adagio, Intermède et Marche. Andante finale.), pub. 1882. (Anyone mention d'Indy's Istar yet? :) ) Also Richard Wuerst's Op.50 variations for orchestra pub.1869...
Even from earlier on- by J.L. (Johann, I think) Böhner: Zephyr-Walzer mit Variationen über ein Original-Thema für ganzes Orchester. Op. 91 - published 1831. &c. There are more, not thick as mud but not exactly few and far between, I think.
But yes, there are, if this is what you meant, far far more concertante variations and chamber-work variations than variations (with/without fugue) for orchestra-alone (that I can find, anyway, published. I expect that RISM online may say similar things about manuscripts, though.)
Quote from: bulleid_pacific on Sunday 31 March 2013, 23:52
No, Delius is definitely sung. Quite why though is another matter - I've just resurrected a very old thread in which I nominate him as possibly the only composer I don't get at all.
Delius must be like liver...either you can't stand the smell of it or you revel in it.
I despise liver(and hard rock), but Delius floats my boat..
Mine too. Who can resist the opening of the Mass of Life, for example? Glorious, exultant stuff.
Quotehas anyone mentioned the penultimate movement of the Raff In Thuringia suite
The fourth movement of the preceding, Hungarian, suite is also a set of variations, as is the slow movement of his Fourth Symphony (although not explicitly described as such).
The slow movement of Raff's 4th Symphony is actually a conflation of passacaglia and sonata forms. Remember on the old Raff forum how Avrohom and I got into quite a row over it? ;D
I well remember, and I'm not going to get into a row about it. As I say, "not explicitly described as such".
Yes, let's not serialize the row by repeating it.
Thanks, Eric.
I don't believe Eyvind Alnaes' Symphonic Variations or Jan van Gilse's Variations on a Saint Nicholas Song have been mentioned yet. Both are fine pieces that can be found on the magnificent YouTube channel of "Bom Cabedal".
....who seems to have extensively plundered our archive!
Indeed, but I take it as a compliment!
Quite 8)
....so have "KuhlauDilfeng/KuhlauDilfeng2" and, to a lesser extent, "collectioncb2/collectioncb3". Indeed, Alan and Mark, you should take it as a compliment! What a magnificent archive indeed :)
I have opened up a couple of YT channels, and must admit that all of the above have spared me quite a bit of work. Also, mention must be made of Tony (fyrexianoff) and bartje11. I believe all of them must be, or at some point were, members here. Tony was for sure. I have corresponded with some of them through YT, particularly Björn (KuhlauDilfeng, I believe).
Franz Lachner's 1st orchestral suite of 1861 contains a set of variations that ends in a march.
A lot of the variations mentioned here are descendents of Brahms' "Haydn" Variations. What about descendents of Strauss's Don Quixote? Are any better aligned in that column?
Question here, too- does anyone know of any pre-20th-century examples of Variations-and (leading up to)-a-Theme (pre-Vaughan-Williams, pre-Britten)...
Edmund Rubbra(1901- 1986)
Variations on 'The Shining River', Op. 101
Variations on a Phyrgian Theme, Op.105
Handel-Rubbra - Variations & Fugue on a Theme of Handel Op. 24 (orch. Rubbra)
Rubba was unquestionably a composer in the romantic vein.
... just to be very picky, that's usually described, with some cause, as Brahms-Rubbra. Brahms wasn't quite that retiring.
Quote from: JollyRoger on Friday 26 July 2013, 01:51
Rubba was unquestionably a composer in the romantic vein.
With respect, he wasn't. What he wrote might be described as 'modern tonal', but definitely
not 'romantic'.
What do you mean by "modern tonal" Alan? Do Vaughn Williams, Sibelius and Shostakovitch come into that category? Personally, I think its very hard to classify composers by date, particularly if they wrote in more than one style.
Rubbra's music is usually, if I remember offhand (and somewhat correctly, I think) described as looking partially all the way back to the Tudor era and forward also, but not back to the Romantic era (diverse though that era really was).
(It's not that easy to categorize as a body of work any more than that of a number of other composers and maybe less than some others- Rubbra's first symphony, and some much earlier works, stand to his output as Vaughan Williams' 4th symphony stands to his, give or take, somewhat, for instance. Several of his works- possibly his first symphony (whose finale is a bit ambiguous in form- though not, I think, ambiguous in effect), but definitely his third and seventh- do conclude with fine variations-and-fugue sets- just not relevant to this particular forum.)
That said, I forget if I mentioned- listened to the Thuringian Suite (Raff, that is...) for the first time a few days ago and I take the meaning; very good variations set there!! (Among other things.) Meanwhile will be looking for some other worthwhile ones on IMSLP, DKB, elsewhere...
Recently uploaded to IMSLP and new to me are works by Karl Adolf Lorenz (1837-1923), mostly for piano or voice but including a set of variations and fugue (Symphonische Variationen über ein Original-Thema und Fuge, Op.98) published in 1914 by Schlesinger. Is this composer well-known to anyone and is there perhaps a private tape of this work (or even a commercial recording) in circulation, or ?... any information? The full score is uploaded, anyway (... better than what we sometimes have. Thanks, cypressdome :) )
Eric
Quote from: John H White on Friday 26 July 2013, 11:35
What do you mean by "modern tonal" Alan? Do Vaughn Williams, Sibelius and Shostakovitch come into that category? Personally, I think its very hard to classify composers by date, particularly if they wrote in more than one style.
Sibelius and Vaughan Williams clearly started off with both feet firmly planted in the sort of late romanticism covered by our remit at UC. Sibelius effectively stopped composing in the mid-twenties and his final completed symphony, although evincing a modernist preference for concision, is still written in a style which fits our criteria. VW, of course, continued writing for over thirty years after Sibelius, so that it is hardly surprising that he developed stylistically beyond the sort of predominantly romantic style that characterises his first two symphonies. The harsh dissonances found in his 4th and 6th symphonies, for example, take him way beyond our remit, although it is clear that he never abandons tonality. Shostakovitch, however, started as a modernist in the twenties and, while never abandoning tonality either, cannot be described stylistically as a romantic in the way that, for example, Miaskovsky can (compare the latter's Cello Concerto - surely one of the last throws of the romantic dice - with Shostakovitch's Cello Concerto No.1!!)
So, what I am distinguishing between are compositions whose style is in accord with UC's stated remit and those that aren't, but which still maintain a fundamental allegiance to traditional tonality. Sibelius' works fit fine (although
Tapiola stands at the outer fringes, as it were); earlier VW is also a good fit, whereas much of his later music (although not all) moves beyond romanticism; Shostakovitch, however, is a prime example of a composer writing in a broadly tonal idiom too dissonant to be described as romantic (although there are individual compositions and parts of compositions written in a wholly romantic style, e.g. the slow movement of the 2nd PC and the Romance from
The Gadfly).
I hope this is clear...
though I'd disagree here and there with those descriptions (e.g. I'm not sure quite how tonal some works by Myaskovsky are- quite a few works of his from the late 1920s/early 1930s- or some of Shostakovich's around the time of the 12th and especially 13th quartets (relatively speaking)- but some of that might be a matter of detail, depending...)
Agreed, Eric, but we're talking broad generalities here.
Glazunov's Theme and Variations for String Orchestra is very good.
I would also love to mention Estonian composer Artur Kapp's Symphony no. 1 (with a wonderful variation last movement).
And lastly, Myaskovsky's Theme et Variations (string orchestra version).
Glazunov's piece is supposedly originally for string quartet, however. and making a quick check of the score shows the double bass part pretty similar to the cello part. Fow whatever that's worth.
fairly sure that's true of the Myaskovsky piece which I think is originally from his Op.33 No.3 (D minor quartet, 2nd movement, the variations on a Grieg theme used to tweak Liadov should Myaskovsky's professor happen to recognize the theme (Liadov didn't much care for Grieg's music at all) - I am under the impression that however he did not...)
Clarification - by "orchestral" we're referring to just works for orchestra, no solo, nothing concertante? If not I'm happy to nominate the variations movement from Serge Taneyev's suite de concert, a fine and enjoyable movement of a quite good piece (I have Oistrakh's live recording, mistracked though the particular version - well, anyway.)
Quote...does anyone know of any pre-20th-century examples of Variations-and (leading up to)-a-Theme (pre-Vaughan-Williams, pre-Britten)...
The work that brought my attention to this inversion of the classical paradigm was d'Indy's Istar Variations (1896).
Don't forget Respighi's early "Variazioni sinfoniche" and Emile Jaques-Dalcroze absolutely charming "Variations on a Swiss song". Both no masterworks but abolutely concert-hall-worthy.
By Jaques-Dalcroze I will record one more CD in about a year or so, including a magnificent vocal cycle for sorprano and orchestra, of which I am presently editing the score.
Adriano, Zurich
Quote from: hadrianus on Saturday 19 October 2013, 22:14
By Jaques-Dalcroze I will record one more CD in about a year or so, including a magnificent vocal cycle for soprano and orchestra, of which I am presently editing the score.
Adriano, Zurich
Sounds interesting. Can you tell us any more about the proposed contents of the CD?
Also interested. By him I've heard only the odd op.61 serenade for string quartet (and have seen the violin concertos in reduced score - I seem to recall they've been recorded) - intrigued by the announcement of the new CD...
It's a vocal cycle entitled "Tragédie d'amour". The work will be coupled with an orchestral suite entitled "La Veillée" and the Overture to his opera "Sancho"
Marvellous. One for the wants list!
I'm looking through my archive and found first:
Samuel Coleridge-Taylor: Symphonic Variations on an African Air op.63
Perhaps, I will find some more...
Edward Joseph Collins (1886-1951): Variations on an Irish Tune (1932)
Ernest Farrar (1885-1918): Variations op.25 (bur for piano and Orchestra)
Herrmann von Glenck (Switzerland, 1883-1952): Variationen-Suite (1918, second Version 1930)
Paul Graener (1872-1944): Variationen über ein rusisches Volkslied
Edvard Grieg (of course no unsung Composer): Altnorwegische Romanze mit Variationen op.51
Robert Heger (The German conductor, 1886-1978): Verdi-Variationen op.23
Already mentioned in this forum:
William Hurlstone (1876-1906): Variations on an original theme (1896), Variations on a Hungarian Air (1897), Fantasy Variations on a Swedish Air (1903)
Not all of this compositions are perfectly romantic. Judge yourself. All are or at least were available ond CD
To be continued...
Julius Röntgen (1855-1932): Variationen über eine norwegische Volksmelodie
Franz Schmidt (perhaps no unsung Composer): Variationen über ein Husarenlied (1931), Konzertante Variationen über ein Thema von Beethoven (1923, for piano and orchestra)
Schostakowitsch: Theme and Variations op.3 (One of his earliest compositions. Date of composition given as 1915(!) - 1922)
Arthur Somervell (1863-1937): Normandy - Symphonic Variations (but for piano and Orchestra)
Maximilian Steinberg (1883-1946): Variations for orchestra op.2
George Szell (the famous conductor): Variations on an original theme op.4
End of the list...
As I mentioned before:
- Not all compositions are truely romantic
- All are or were available on CD
Martin
These lists lend support to my earlier observation - casual as it was, and despite some obvious exceptions (Dvorak etc) - that purely orchestral variations are largely a 20thC form. I can only guess which ones are romantic in style.
Well, the Shostakovich (in B-flat) has been recorded- once. The Szell has been performed by the American Symphony Orchestra- maybe it can be heard over iTunes- also recorded by the Cleveland Institute back in 1992 (for a description, see program notes (http://americansymphony.org/variations-on-an-original-theme-op-4-1913/); the date seems to be 1913, I assume this is composition, not publication date- ah, I see, published in 1916. In A (minor? major?))
Graener's Russian folktune variations (his opus 55, published 1922) can be found on IMSLP here (http://imslp.org/wiki/Variationen_%C3%BCber_ein_russisches_Volkslied,_Op.55_%28Graener,_Paul%29) which may or may not help in answering that question...
(Hrm. Can't remember if I mentioned the 20th c., but early 20th c. (by-1912) Aleksandr Winkler "Variations sur un thème russe" (http://imslp.org/wiki/Variations_sur_un_th%C3%A8me_russe,_Op.16_%28Winkler,_Aleksandr%29) - so - mentioning it... likewise Müller-Hartmann (http://imslp.org/wiki/Variationen_und_Fuge_%C3%BCber_ein_eigenes_Thema,_Op.3_%28M%C3%BCller-Hartmann,_Robert%29)'s 1909 variations and fugue in E major, Op.3 for large orchestra - again, 20th century but early in it.
I haven't listened to most of the works in my list for quite a long time. I remember at least Coleridge-Taylor, Graener, Hurlstone and Röntgen to be romantic in style.
Though somebody already mentioned Franz Schmidt, i think that the marvellous 2nd movement of his 2nd symphony has not been mentioned. Also, let's not forget the 3rd movement of Gliere's 2nd symphony.
I'm slightly surprised no-one's mentioned Haydn Wood's Variations on "If You Want to Know the Time, Ask a P'liceman". Quite a witty and intricate piece, but I'm not sure it's had a recording since Alick Maclean did it with the NQHLO for HMV in 1920. I have that disc and it was a joy to find and hear; now after reading this thread, I have to go through my acoustical orchestrals and find it again! Does anyone else here know it?
Yes, indeed. As a fan of 'light music' it's a familiar piece. It appears on the very entertaining Marco Polo disc of Haydn Wood's orchestral music, played by the SlovakRSO, cond. Ernest Tomlinson.
Perhaps it has not been mentioned because forays outside the remit of UC - i.e. the romantic genre as defined on our webpages - are generally avoided. Some threads lend themselves to a little more leeway than others, as I think this one does, but we do try to keep discussion as close to the romantic genre as much as reasonable. :)