Unsung Composers

German father and son composers Karl (who has the same birth and death dates as Wagner!) and Hermann Graedener (or Grädener) have languished in obscurity even more than many of the composers that are discussed here. They are so obscure, in fact, that none of their music has made it onto disc. Enter Steve's Bedroom Band, who uploaded more than serviceable recordings of Karl's String Quartet no. 3 and Hermann's String Octet and String Quartet no. 2 to IMSLP, and we finally have access to some of these mens' work. As can be heard in these well-crafted, melodious works, Karl was primarily influenced by Schumann and Mendelssohn, while Hermann was strongly influenced by Brahms. Considering that my interests lie mainly in orchestral music, what piqued my interest most about the Graedeners is that they composed some substantial orchestral works. Karl composed two symphonies and a piano concerto (as well as three operas), and Hermann has two symphonies and two concertos each for violin and piano to his credit. IMSLP holds quite a few of each composer's chamber works, as well as as piano reduction of Hermann's Violin Concerto no. 2. Does anyone have any more to say about this intriguing father and son?

I agree with your curiosity :) . The Free Library of Philadelphia's Fleisher Collection has scores and parts to a number of Hermann Gradener's concertos and other works (e.g. Hermann's opp.20, 41, 47 for violin (no.2), for piano, for cello (no.2) - and Hermann's symphony no.2 in C minor ((c)1912) also as well as a capriccio), so at least they haven't been lost like so many works that now survive only in those piano reductions.

Thanks-that's good to know :)

I recently listened to Hermann Graedener's String Quartet no. 2 in D major, op. 39 (c.1905). It's a thoroughly conservative work for its time, but certainly not without interest. It has an open-air feel more reminiscent of Dvorak than Brahms, but of course Graedener doesn't have Dvorak's talent for instantly memorable melodies. Especially remarkable is the puckish scherzo, with ear-catching spiccato and even ponticello effects. Also, the expansive first movement is quite lovely, with some interesting harmonies along the way. This work should dispel any notion that Hermann Graedener was merely a Brahms epigone :)

Hermann Graedener's 1st String Quartet in D minor (Op.33, 1898) is also a very fine piece: it has rather a post-Brahmsian feel with some lovely scrunchy harmonies and interesting harmonic progressions; of course it is basically conservative in style, but it is nonetheless lovely and again has the sort of open air feel that has been mentioned in respect of his 2nd String Quintet. It also not without its darker corners, as befits a piece in D minor.
Further info on these two quartets can be found here:
http://www.editionsilvertrust.com/gradener-h-string-quartet-1.htm (http://www.editionsilvertrust.com/gradener-h-string-quartet-1.htm)
http://www.editionsilvertrust.com/gradener-h-string-quartet-2.htm (http://www.editionsilvertrust.com/gradener-h-string-quartet-2.htm)

Also the full scores and/or parts of both quartets, and a recording of one of them, can I think be found at IMSLP, if memory serves (thanks, matesic, re the latter :) )

I was just wondering whether friends had come across anything else by either one of these two fine composers since the last post two and a half years ago...?

An esteemed colleague of mine has for years shown interest in Graedener's 2nd Violin Concerto, even saying that she planned to record it. Nothing has come of this as yet.

QuoteGraedener's 2nd Violin Concerto

Please excuse my ignorance - I assume this would be Hermann Graedener's VC2? If so, any idea what it's like? Toskey is pretty enthusiastic about the piece...

Speaking of Hermann Graedener, yesterday I took part in an all day octet fest. We played through octets by Bruch, Bargiel, Raff, Gliere, Theriot, Mendelssohn, Malling, Gade, Svendsen and Hermann Graedener. (It did take all day with breaks for lunch and dinners---organizing octets always takes some doing to get 8 people together. We were a group of pros and good amateurs and we played for an audience of about 35 people, knowledgable spouses and friends.

Without talking about which was liked best, I will tell you that everyone overwhelmingly thought Graedener's octet (the Op.12) was the equal of anything and better than most. I will say that the Bruch was uniformly blasted and rightly so. A so called op. post. work which for all the world sounds like it was written when he was 12 and not 78. Poor Max, he left it unpublished for a good reason...

We did not speak of Mendelssohn which everyone knows all too well. Pity it is virtualy the only one heard in concert. The other real standouts were the Gliere, Malling, and Bargiel.

The Gade and Thieriot were considered pretty weak, while the Raff and the Svendsen were judged workmanlike.

Sadly, to the best of my knowledge, the Graedener has never been recorded. Hats off to Matesic for his effort which you can hear at the Edition Silvertrust website, however, because of his cello situation, one loses some of the extraordinary depth in the deep registers of the magnificent opening them to the first movement. Still very worthwhile hearing and a nice job. It would be great if we could get the Graedener and the Malling recorded. I think all of the others have been recorded at one time or another.

Thanks for this fascinating account. Encouraging news about how the H. Graedener work was received.

Interesting! (I would have liked to hear how the Enescu octet- also an early octet, but a wonderful one in my own honest opinion- would have fared in the opinions of the company. It takes an excellent performance to hold together/cohere, but in an excellent performance...)

After reading Santo's kind words I listened to the H.Graedener octet for the first time in a couple of years - what a magnificent piece it is, although boy, do we need a proper performance/recording of it! I find that, as with a certain C major string quintet of similarly epic proportions, I really want to hear the first movement exposition all over again. But in my view the first movement is overtopped by the G-major variations of the third, where after a final dead march in which the second cello is required to tune his C-string down to B the theme makes its final appearance in Eb. Where did that heavenly idea come from? I hope someone (Eric?) can tell us.

I am quite surprised by the harsh judgement regarding the string octet by Max Bruch. Could you explain, Santo, what exactly makes it sound like the work of a 12 year old?

Quote from: matesic on Tuesday 29 December 2015, 09:41
But in my view the first movement is overtopped by the G-major variations of the third, where after a final dead march in which the second cello is required to tune his C-string down to B the theme makes its final appearance in Eb. Where did that heavenly idea come from? I hope someone (Eric?) can tell us.

I am afraid this is a mean thing to do to a cellist.  The peg on the cello does not click into place like a modern bicycle shifter, so to retune a string soundlessly is extremely difficult.  Also the string often won't hold the pitch as it is not "used" to be tuned to B.  In this case I can't even find a place in that variation where that B actually sounds.  Apparently he just wanted to avoid the open C string for the several long Cs that occur.  I'd ignore the scordatura request if I were to perform the piece.  Schumann did the same in his piano quartet (magnificent in any other way, far too unsung IMHO) and all cellists do a work around (in this case the lower tone is actually supposed to sound once) which is not too obvious as the piano provides "cover".

If you ignore the request to retune it sounds ever so slightly wrong, as I discovered when I heard the cellos in bars 5 and 6 of Variation 5 sounding in consecutive sevenths!  As with earlier writers of scordatura such as Biber, what you see in the score either is or is not what you get, according to which string you're playing on. Here passages marked "sul H" are to be played on the bottom string such that the initial written C sounds B (H in German terminology) and so on, while the "sul G" and "sul D" passages played on the higher strings sound as written. This applies throughout the movement so the cellist only needs to retune at the beginning. Try playing some Biber for a ear- and mind-bending experience!

Well, Black, as the French say chacun à son goût---each to his own taste. So, far be it from me to say I am right and you are wrong.

It is true, I reported my own opinion which was shared by all of the players and most of the audience. Listen closely to the first movement. It is incredibly bombastic. He is playing for the grandstands and it is highly repetitive. Listen to the end of it...Apparently, judging from the fact that some, a minority, of the audience thought it was okay, it sounds better than it plays. But if you can play it, I am pretty certain you and your group will realize it is far from something he would be proud of...

Matesic I take it back.  I should have considered why the string is always indicated in the score:  This is written in (quasi-)tabulatura, i.e. how it is stopped, not how it sounds.  So the Cs are all in fact Bs.

Bieber of course is not quite comparable:  He had strings that apparently could tolerate massive retuning (he has some very bizarre schemes in there, generating the possibility for some usually unavailable double stops), we don't any more.  As far as I recall he does not retune in the middle of a movement (though admittedly his movements are shorter than this one).  I never dared try for fear of damaging my strings; also they are not actually easy to play, quite the opposite. 

What I really meant is that this retuning creates problems for performance:  Do you retune mutely and risk the open string to be fairly massively out of tune?  Or do you retune with the usual glissando sounds thereby breaking the continuity of the  movement? (Unlike the Schumann I don't see a way to find a work around, those Bs are crucial).  This has probably contributed to the unsungness of the piece--which is truly impressive and worthy of a revival.

BTW I never quite understand why there are so few performances of even the Mendelssohn octet (which is not only brilliant, but also a crowd pleaser) let alone any of the others.  Combining two existing quartets should not be more difficult than finding an extra viola for quintets.  Is it because they can't agree which of the two first fiddlers gets to play first in the octet?

You're right of course, Santo. It is no use to discuss taste. It is just that I love to hear the piece and probably would have loved to play it, were it available when I still was an active viola player. To me it sounds utterly  Bruch'ish, much more than his 1st string quintet or his septet for wind and strings.
OK, sorry for being off topic.

Graedener does give his second cello a bit of a problem, to tune down the C-string without disturbing the rapt mood of the movement , but it only happens once at the natural caesura between the 4th and 5th variations. Once you've found it, and provided the peg isn't too sticky, the B should be secure enough until the end of the work. No problem in the recording studio, of course.  Violinists can sometimes afford the luxury of having a second instrument to hand (e.g. in Mahler 4), but I guess this isn't practical for a cellist!

Now I'm keen to take another look at Biber's Rosary Sonatas, many movements of which aren't technically too difficult. And I'll be using my second-best violin.

I think the main reason why Mendelssohn's Octet doesn't get programmed more often is the question of what to couple it with. Like it or not (actually I'm a sucker for the big tune in the finale), I'm thinking Bruch's octet could become its "natural" partner. Since the vast majority of concert-goers will be more attracted by a composer they've heard of, poor Graedener, Malling and the rest have still got a mountain to climb.

On recording, anyway, the Mendelssohn -has- been coupled with the Enescu a few times I think; in concert this would be a stamina challenge (two long, quite difficult octets back to back!)

I see four performances offhand of the Mendelssohn between now and July. The first, in Budapest in January, is coupled with Schumann's Märchenerzählungen. The second is in London in March, with a Paganini guitar quartet and Puccini's Cristantemi.  The third does indeed couple it with Bruch's octet (in Dortmund, in June. Frank Kistner plays double bass.) In July, also in London, the Mendelssohn is part of a program with works by Vivaldi (Magnificat RV 610) and Vaughan Williams :)

Hurriedly before someone corrects me, I just remembered the Bruch Octet substitutes a double-bass for the second cello, so not a "natural" partner for the Mendelssohn!

Alas, nobody's thinking of coupling it with Wilm's nonet :)

Quote from: matesic on Wednesday 30 December 2015, 09:54
Hurriedly before someone corrects me, I just remembered the Bruch Octet substitutes a double-bass for the second cello, so not a "natural" partner for the Mendelssohn!

Could that have been the reason why Santo and his companions were not quite so enthousiastic?

So far nobody has mentioned daddy Karl Graedener's Octet for the standard combination - one for Santo's next octathon? It doesn't look too taxing for the first violin and the part-writing looks quite interesting too. Unfortunately my shoulder aches just thinking about the 4 hours it'd take me to get a read-through in the can.

I could typeset a score (will take some time though; it is a long work), maybe a MIDI file would be better than no recording in this case.  A score would be useful for playing the piece anyhow. 
The first violin part is maybe not too hard, but it isn't exactly easy either BTW.

For an oh-so-rough impression of the first movement:

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/nu3vw4uk23z03al/gradenerC_octet_m1.mp3 (http://www.mediafire.com/listen/nu3vw4uk23z03al/gradenerC_octet_m1.mp3)

I think that's as much as I have the energy for.

Thanks, Steve. It's certainly an attractive piece, by the sound of it.

My friend sent me a run-through with piano of Graedener's Violin Concerto No.2. It is a fantastic work; musically substantial, virtuosic and sporting good tunes, and a post-Brahmsian vocabulary that yields surprises. I'm amazed this hasn't been played far more often.

What happens next with this, I don't know. She wants to record this, and you're all familiar with the challenges.

Reporting on progress on the octet by Carl Georg Peter Graedener to quote the full name at least once (and with the C for Carl):  All four movements have been entered into score and the first is also proofread.  In reasonable short order I ought to be able to post to IMSLP.  The plan is to make a MIDI version available as well.  Won't be very good compared to Steve's band, but better than nothing.  As of now I'd say the work is worth playing if somewhat uneven in appeal.
I will let everybody know when it is available.

BTW for what it is worth:  Meanwhile I have taken a listen to the Bruch octet and agree rather with the negative judgement by Santo.  I ought to say that I am generally not very impressed by Bruch, though of course the one sung VC (or at least its first two movements) is indeed beautiful and justly famous.

Bit of late reply, but for what it is worth, we played the Bruch Octet with a bass. We played at a high school and there was a bass available. Our second cellist, a string teacher is an all rounder, plays the violin, viola, cello and bass. Bass is his second instrument, cello. He played the bass for the Bruch.

Anyway, the criticism really had nothing to do with whether there were 2 cellos or cello and bass. There is just one heck of a lot, a real lot, of sawing, unnecessary repetition (without taking taking any repeats).

Finally the typeset score of Carl Grädener's octet is finished.  For the time being it can be found here (https://musescore.com/user/22214/sets/1841461).  It will be posted on IMSLP together with a set of parts when they are ready.

There is a computer generated soundtrack, so you can listen to it.  It is not very good, the balance is often unsatisfactory (I tried to some degree to fix this, but the success is modest).  Also there is a rather annoying vibrato.  Nevertheless you can imagine how the piece will sound as you read the score while listening.

I will post some thoughts  on the piece later.

That's a heroic piece of type-setting. I'm sure the catalogue can accommodate more octets of this type, although unfortunately I can't say I found Carl's music to be on the same level as Hermann's. It does seem as if melodic inspiration deserted him sometimes, particularly in the Adagio, and most of the time the part-writing seems essentially orchestral.

It's great to be able to make these judgments on the basis of what we hear rather than what we see but (as we discussed in another thread) synthesized string-instrument sounds still have a long way to go before even modest players are put out of business. Another annoying "feature" I notice is that each bowed note takes a finite time to build, such that rapid semiquaver passages hardly have time to register at all. Pizzicatos, on the other hand feel like a smack in the eye!

Some of these disadvantages could be managed.  E.g. the pizzicati could be made softer (they are among other things just too loud compared to arco, most notably in the adagio right at the beginning) by adding the info to the score.  Of course the tone does take its time to build on real violins as well and without imitating that you'd never get the feeling of strings I guess.  But something is wrong there.  Maybe if one could stop the vibrato for faster passages...
Anyhow I decided to post it as is and let people put up with it.

Here my description (judgement?) of the Carl Grädener octet (I am spelling Grädener's name as it is spelled on the old octet edition that was my source).

On the whole I agree with Matesic; it is not the most inspired of the available works for eight strings.  But I also have to admit that as I worked on it it grew on me and I don't think rehearsing it would be boredom.  It is true that there is little memorable melodic invention but I am not sure that memorable melodies are the hallmark of a masterpiece, especially in large multi movement works like this one.  The music in this octet moves forward primarily by rhythm, harmony and counterpoint.  It is also true that it is "orchestral" (more orchestral than the Mendelssohn at any rate, and BTW how many great melodies are in the Mendelssohn?), but this results in some interesting use of the ensemble such as:  The lower four instruments as a group are contrasted by the four violins, e.g. in the adagio.  I have no doubt that--in a good ensemble--some very gorgeous sound would emerge.

The first movement--Allegro risoluto ma non troppo presto--in sonata form begins with a fortepiano accent in quavers in fifths--no third.  Only when the main motif appears--a rising E flat Major triad (conscious reference to Mendelssohn?) in semiquavers--is the main key fully established.  The contrasting second theme is also rather unmelodic and repetitive but is taken through some lovely, somewhat Dvorak-ish chord progressions.  As the movement progresses rhythmic complexity is increased by the addition of triplet quavers as well as triplet crotchets such that the end is reached in increased density and tension. 

The "Adagio molto" mustn't be played too slowly and I wonder why Grädener didn't write it down in cut time (and why "molto").  It is in A B A' form, the A (B Major) part based on a motif consisting of repeated notes of the same pitch.  The B part (a minor) adds semiquaver sextuplets to the pattern and has a triadic melody (such as it is).  When the opening motif reappears the transition to A' is underway.  A' is enriched by the sextuplets from the B part.  Interesting detail:  Like in Hermann's octet the cello is asked to tune the C string down to B during this movement, though only for the last chord.  Coincidence?

The scherzo (E flat again) starts out sounding like a passacaglia over an eight measure theme presented twice in different instrumentations before a scale derived melody is combined with it .  Later on the "passacaglia theme" keeps appearing in snippets (as a rhythmic backdrop) while the melody is developed a bit.  At the end of the scherzo the opening theme appears played backward.  Two trios are interspersed; the first being the more interesting:  The upper instruments move up and down chords while the lower instruments move through the same chords in countermotion.  The second trio is in 2/4 (measure = measure) and is essentially a not all that exciting chord progression.  This movement to me is the least interesting.  If I had to perform it I'd cut the second trio.

The last movement--Allegro con fuoco ma non troppo (Mendelssohn first movement:  Allegro moderato ma con fuoco)--opens with runs up the E flat scale which constitute a short introduction.  The first subject is a fugue on a theme that might be from much earlier times.  The second subject features a small alteration to this theme, contrasted with a counter-theme, a lovely melody (the loveliest by far in this work anyway), still worked out in fugal writing.  Indeed the whole movement is so dominated by fugal writing that I'd call it a sonata fugue form (again reference to Mendelssohn whose last movement also has fugue elements in it?).  The introductory scale runs appear again at the end of the exposition and, somewhat extended, serve as the coda to the whole work, a sort of signposts along the way through the movement.  This I'd think is the most exciting of the four movements--though the fuoco is indeed non troppo.

I yielded to the temptation of quoting the title and the instrument names in the original German exactly as they are on the source, mainly because I love the (not so very) German word "Bratsche".  It sounds so exactly like a viola...

After time consuming formatting and correction exercises the score and parts (http://imslp.org/wiki/String_Octet,_Op.49_(Gr%C3%A4dener,_Carl_Georg_Peter)) are finally up on Musescore.

Maybe it'll further discussion of these two interesting composers to add a work list for the younger Grädener, who might be the more interesting and musically substantial, judging by Matesic's recordings of the String Octet and String Quartet No.2:


Hermann was born in Kiel, Germany, but spent all his professional life in Vienna, where he was one of Brahms' circle. He received his initial musical education from his father Karl before studying at the Vienna Conservatory with Hellmesberger. In 1862 he became organist at the city's Lutheran Church, and in 1864 became a violinist in the court orchestra. He joined the Horak Piano School as a teacher of harmony in 1873 and four years later moved to the Vienna Conservatory to teach music theory, becoming a professor there in 1882. Between 1892 and 1896 he was director of the Vienna Singakademie, and from 1899 he also taught harmony, theory and counterpoint at Vienna University. He retired in 1913. As well as teaching and composition, Hermann Grädener was an accomplished conductor.


Choral & Dramatic Works:
Op.40 The Minstrel [Der Spielmann] Rhapsody for mixed choir, violin and orchestra  (1904)
Op.51 Our Father, 1914 [Vater unser 1914]. Hymn for 4-voice women's choir, 4-voice men's choir & orchestra (ms)
WoO The Recruits [Der Geworbene] for male choir (WWI)
WoO Opera: Richter von Zalamea
WoO Oratorio: The Blessed Zita [Die heilige Zita]
WoO Wittenberg. Ballad for soloists, choir and orchestra)
WoO The Maid at the Lake [Das Mädchen am See] for 3-voicewomen's choir & piano (ms)

Orchestral Works:
Op.4 Capriccio in F major for orchestra (1872 - 10 mins)
Op.14 Sinfonietta for orchestra (1881 - 25 mins)
    I. Allegro II. Scherzo: Molto allegro III. Andante IV. Finale: Molto vivo
WoO Variations for organ, string instruments & trumpet (1898)
Op.20 Piano Concerto in D minor (1914 - 23 mins)
    I. Allegro moderato II. Adagio ma non troppo III. Finale: Rondo
Op.21 Symphony No.1 in B minor (1914)
WoO Symphony No.2 in C minor (1912 - 56 mins)
    I. Allegro un poco maestoso II. Adagio non troppo III. Scherzo IV. Finale
Op.22 Violin Concerto No.1 in D major (1905)
Op.28 A Comedy Overture [Eine Lustspiel-Ouvertüre] for orchestra (1886)
Op.41 Violin Concerto No.2 in D minor (1914 - 30 mins)
    I. Allegro non troppo II. Andante III. Finale: Rondo capricioso
Op.45 Cello Concerto in E minor (1908)
    Allegro moderato — Adagio molto — Allegro moderato — Allegro
Op.47 Cello Concerto No.2 in B minor (1914 - 20 mins)
    I. Allegro moderato II. Adagio III. Finale: Rondo

Chamber Works:
Op.1 Piano Trio No.1 in F (1867)
    I. Allegro II. - III. Andante IV. Finale: Allegro non troppo
Op.6 Piano Quintet No.1 in D major (1872)
    I. Allegro moderato II. Scherzo: Molto vivace III. Andante 
    IV. Intermezzo: Allegro V. Finale: Allegro
Op.11 Five Impromptus for piano trio (1880)
Op.12 Octet for strings in C major (1881 - 47 mins)
    I. Allegro moderato II. Allegro non troppo III. Lento 
    IV. Finale: Allegro non troppo, ma con fuoco
Op.19 Piano Quintet No.2 in C minor (1889)
    I. Allegro moderato II. Scherzo: Allegro molto III. Adagio IV. Finale: Allegro
Op.23 String Quintet in C major (1883)
Op.25 Piano Trio No. 2 in D minor (1893)
    I. Allegro II. Scherzo: Allegro III. Adagio IV. Finale: Allegro con fuoco
Op.33 String Quartet No.1 in D minor (1898)
    I. Allegro con brio II. Adagio in Balladenton: Adagio non troppo
    III. Scherzo: Allegro molto IV. Finale: Rondo. Allegretto moderato
Op.35 Violin Sonata in C minor (1905)
Op.39 String Quartet No.2 in D major (1905 - 31 mins)
    I. Non troppo allegro, risoluto ed energico II. Andante
    III. Allegro IV. Allegro energico ed un poco agitato
WoO Lento - Allegro for 2 violins
WoO String Quartet Movement in G minor G-Moll (ms)

Songs:
Op.7 Five Duets for soprano & tenor with piano
Op.8 Four Lieder for tenor (or soprano) & piano (1876)
Op.9 Five Intermezzi for violin & piano (1881)
Op.10 Seven Lieder for alto & piano (1880)
Op.15 Six Lieder for tenor (or soprano) and piano (1881)
Op.17 Six Lieder for Tenor-Baritone (or mezzo-soprano) & piano (1886)
Op.26 The Three Gypsies [Die drei Zigeuner] for baritone & piano (1892)
Op.27 Five Lieder for voice & piano (1888)
Op.29 The Wandering Musician [Der wandernde Musikant] for voice & paino (1891)
Op.30 Four songs for middle voice & piano (1892)
WoO Silent Love [Stille Liebe] for voice & piano (1899)
Op.34 Five Lieder for high voice & piano
Op.37 Four Lieder for high voice & piano (1904)
Op.38 Four Lieder for middle voice & piano (1904)
WoO Four Lieder & Poems by Anna Ritter (1905)
WoO Let's Scrape Your Horse's Hoof [Lass scharren deiner Rosse Huf] for voice & piano (1908)
WoO Five Lieder for voice & piano (1911)
Op.44 Six Lieder for a lower voice and piano (1914)
WoO Vow [Gelübde] for voice & piano (1914)
WoO Twelve Lieder for voice & piano (1920)
WoO The Invalids' Thanks to the Emperor [Des Invaliden Dank an den Kaiser] for voice & piano (WWI)
WoO From the Hunting Bag [Vom Jagdtasche] for voice & piano (ms)
WoO The Leaf of the Fower [Das Blatt der Blume] for voice & piano (ms)
WoO A Call Was Made From the Mountain [Vom Berg ergeht ein Rufen]. Duet for soprano and alto (or baritone) & piano (ms)
WoO Lied: Now, Ferryman [Nun Fährmann] for voice & piano (ms)
WoO Remembrance [Erinnerung]. Duet for mezzo-soprano, baritone & piano (ms)

Works for piano:
Op.2.Three Impromptus for piano four-hands (1868)
Op.3 Four Impromptus for piano four-hands (1869)
Op.5 Voices [Stimmungen] Six piano pieces (1871)
Op.18 Sonata for Two Pianos in D minor (1882)
    I. Allegro moderato II. Non troppo lento III. Finale: Allegro molto

Notes:
Unidentified Opus nos: Opp.13, 16, 24, 31, 32, 36, 42, 43 & 46-50.
Sources: HMB, Worldcat, IMSLP, SBB, ONB, RISM, Fleisher.
Dates: are generally those of publication, sometimes of performance, but not of composition.
Work durations: are from Matesic's recordings or estimates given in the Fleisher Collection catalogue.
The English Wikipedia page mentions two Piano Concertos, but this seems to be a mistake.

The Library of Congress may have a few of the rarer full scores (2nd cello concerto, 2nd symphony...).
The Austrian National Library does have them (though not the first?) as well as a caveat that some works they list as by Hermann Grädener are by a more recent creative artist (an author and playwright I think, died 1956.)

Fleisher has complete performance material for 13 pieces, including, among orchestral works, the 2 you mention, Eric, plus IIRC the 2nd VC, Capriccio, Sinfonietta and the PC.

As I recall ÖNB seems to have those (how much and in what forms, how available and to whom, I'm not positive) too- but redundancy is good; better multiple libraries should have something than only one.  I wonder if anyone has material for the first symphony?
Off top of, etc., I'm going to guess ÖNB has some stuff for Karl too...

According to WorldCat a Study Score (143 pages) of the Erste Sinfonie in h-moll is held in the Harriet M. Spaulding Library at the New England Conservatory of Music. That's all I can find.

To round out the catalogues of the Grädeners père et fils, here's a work list for Hermann's father Karl (or Carl). On the face of it, he majored in chamber music, songs and piano works, but there's a mystery: he may well have written several major works which were unpublished, and of which I can't seem to trace any evidence online except for a summary of his oeuvre published in 1882 to celebrate his 70th birthday - see the bottom of this post. So, for now...


Grädener  was born in Rostock and grew up in Altona (near Hamburg) and Lübeck. He began studying law in Halle and Göttingen before turning to music. Between 1835 and 1838 he lived in Helsinki as a cellist before returning to Germany as a composer and conductor in Kiel and music director of the city's university. Political problems caused his dismissal and he moved to Hamburg as a private music teacher and concert organiser, where in 1851 he founded a Singakademie which he headed until 1861. From 1862 to 1865 he taught voice and music theory at the conservatory in Vienna, but he returned to Hamburg and from 1873 until his death he taught at the Hamburg Conservatory.


Orchestral Works:
Op.20 Piano Concerto in A minor (1869)
Op.25 Symphony in C minor (1872)
Op.30 Overture in G major to Schiller's Fiesco for orchestra (1873)
    Langsam — Rasch — Festes Tempo — Schneller — Langsamer und sehr ruhig
Op.36 Duet of the Elves, a Night-Piece [Zwiegesang der Elfen. Ein Nachtstück] for soloists,
    six-part choir & small orchestra (1858)
Op.53 Romance in E major for violin & small orchestra (1868)
    Adagio sostenuto

A Capella Choral Works:
Op.8 Eight four-part Lieder for mixed choir (or solo quartet) a capella (1853)
Op.38a Three Marian Lieder for four-part womens' choir (2 soprano & 2 alto) a capella (1871)
WoO Acclaimed, He Begins Life [Gefeiert tritt er in das Leben] for men's choir  (1880)
WoO Two Drinking Songs [Trinklieder] for men's choir (1880)
WoO Drinking Song [Trinklied]: The Emperor Octavian [Der Kaiser Octavianus]
    for men's choir (1880)

Chamber Works:
Op.7 Piano Quintet No.1 in G minor (1852)
    I. Allegro  II. Andante cantabile e molto sostenuto
    III. Scherzo: Molto vivace e con leggerezza  IV. Allegro molto
Op.11 Violin Sonata in D major (1853)
Op.12 String Quartet No.1 in B flat major (1861)
    I. Molto allegro  II. Menuetto scherzando  III. Adagio molto cantabile e sostenuto
    IV. Finale: Allegro vivace
Op.17 String Quartet No.2 in A minor (1861)
    I. Allegro - Lento, quasi Recitativo — II. Andante non troppo lento, quasi Allegretto
    III. Presto  IV. Finale: Allegro assai
Op.22 Piano Trio No.1 in E major (1857)
    I. Presto - Allegro molto  II. Larghetto molto lento più tosto Adagio
    III. Allegro risoluto quasi Presto
Op.29 String Quartet No.3 in E flat major (1861 - 33 mins)
    I. Introduzione: Lento molto e cantabile - Allegro di molto  II. Largo molto ed
    espressivo  III. Scherzo. Molto Allegro quasi Presto - Presto furioso, ma non troppo 
    IV. Finale: Lento - Allegro - Lento molto - Allegro vivace
Op.35 Piano Trio No.2 in E flat major (1860)
    I. Allegro  II. Andante mosso (alla Marcia)
Op.41 Two Small Violin Sonatas in Lighter Style
    No.1 in B flat major: I Mässig schnell  II. Allegretto  III. Rondoletto: Zeimlich rasch
    No.2 in D major: I. Schnell, leicht II. Scherzino: Leicht, schnell
    III. Andantino. Nach Behagen  IV. Rondino: Ziemlich rasch
Op.48 String Trio in G major (1864 - arranged for piano four-hands 1881)
    I. Lento - Allegro molto moderato  II. Minuetto: Un poco vivace
    III. Adagio  IV. Finale: Allegro vivace, ma non troppo
Op.49 Octet for strings in E flat major (1870 - 34 mins)
    I. Allegro risoluto ma non troppo presto  II. Adagio molto
    III. Scherzo: Allegro  IV. Finale: Allegro con fuoco, ma non troppo
Op.57 Piano Quintet No.2 in C sharp minor (1872)
    I. Allegro moderato II. Adagio molto  III. Menuetto scherzando
    IV. Rondo finale: Allegro moderato ma energico, quasi Marcia
Op.59 Cello Sonata in C major (1873)
    I. Adagio molto - Allegro  II. Molto adagio III. Allegro finale con brio
Op.61 String Quartet No.4 in F major (ms)
    I. Allegro  II. Andante molto sostenuto
    III. Scherzo & Trio: Molto vivace  IV. Allegro

Songs:
Op.4 Four Lieder for voice & piano (1850)
Op.6 Four Lieder for voice & piano (1849)
Op.9 Five Cheerful [heitere] Lieder by R. Reinick for voice & piano (1856)
Op.13 Six Lieder for voice & piano (1851)
Op.15 Five Hebrew Melodies [Hebräische Gesänge] by Lord Byron for one or
    two women's voices and piano (1852)
Op.18 Sounds of Autumn [Herbstklänge]. Seven Lieder for low voice & piano (1857)
Op.19 Forest Magic [Waldeszauber]. Quiet Joy [Stille Freude]. Sounds of Resurrection
    [Auferstehungsklänge]  A Lieder-Cycle for soprano, alto, tenor & bass (1853)
Op.23. Six German Lieder for voice & piano (1856, 1867)
Op.26 Four Lieder for voice & piano (1870)
Op.32 Four Love Songs [Liebeslieder] for soprano and tenor with (1867)
Op.34 Four German Lieder for voice & piano
Op.39. Poor Peter [Der arme Peter]: Three lieder & Song of the Prisoners
    [Lied des Gefangenen] by  H. Heine for 6 or 5 women's voices (1871)
Op.44 Ten Travelling & Wandering Lieder by W. Müller for middle voice & piano (1863)
Op.45 Six Lieder by J von Eichendorff for  two voices (soprano & alto) with piano (1863)
Op.46 Five Sacred [geisliche] Lieder. Offertory [Offertorien] for middle voice
    and harmonium (or organ) (1871)
Op.50 Sounds of Autumn [Herbstklänge]. Seven Lieder for middle voice & piano (1867)
Op.56 Five Love Songs [Liebeslieder] for voice & piano (1871)
Op.60 Werner's Lieder from Welschland (France & Italy) from Scheffel's Trompeter
    von Säkkingen for lower voice & piano. 11 nos. (1873)
Op.63 Three Rhapsodic Songs [rhapsodische Gesänge] for baritone (or low soprano) and piano
Op.65 Youth's Dream [Jugendtraume]. Seven Lieder by Rückert for middle voice & piano (1878)
Op.66 Six Lieder by Hermann Kletke for middle voice & piano (1878)
Op.67 Four Duets by Hermann Kletke for two sopranos with piano (1879)
Op.69 Six Lieder by Hermann Kletke for three women's voices. (Nos.1-3 without piano;
    Nos.4-6 with piano) (1884)
Op.71 Eight Lieder by Hermann Kletke for middle voice & piano (1884)

Works for Organ:
WoO Prelude in B flat major - O God & Lord [Ach Gott und Herr] for organ (1881)
WoO Prelude & Fugue in A minor for organ

Works for Piano:
Op.5 Flying Leaves [Fliegende Blätter] for piano (1849, 1855)
Op.24 Eight Little Flying Leaves in Child's Style [Fliegende Blättchen im Kinderton] for piano (1856)
Op.27 Flying Leaves [Fliegende Blätter] for piano. Vol.2: Three Scherzos & a Notturno (1856)
Op.28 Piano Sonata in C minor (1861)
Op.31 Flying Leaves [Fliegende Blätter] for piano. Vol.3: Four nos. (1856)
Op.33 Flying Leaves in Child's Style [Fliegende Blätter im Kinderton] for piano. Vol.2: 9 nos. (1857)
Op.43 Little Flying Leaves in Child's Style [Fliegende Blättchen im Kinderton] for piano.
    Vol.3: 9 nos. (1864)
Op.51 Variations on an Original Theme for piano (1868)
Op.52 Nine Fantastic Studies & Reveries [Fantastische Studien & Träumereien]for piano (1871)
Op.58 Eight Children's Songs [Kinderlieder] for three-part choir or solo voices with piano (1872)
Op.72 Nine Small Impromptus for piano (1886)
WoO Six Cello Sonatas by J.S. Bach, arranged for piano

Unidentified Opus Numbers: Opp.1-3, 10, 14, 16, 21, 37, 40, 42, 47, 62, 64, 68 & 70
Sources: HMB, WorldCat, IMSLP, SBB, RISM, Fleisher.
Dates: are generally those of publication, sometimes of performance, but not of composition.
Durations for Opp.29 & 49: are from Matesic's and Double-A's realisations of the works.
Translations: Mine, so apologies for the many errors.

A contemporary appreciation of Grädener, published in a German periodical to mark the composer's 70th birthday in 1882, lists more major works: 3 more symphonies, two operas, two oratorios, four cantatas, a second overture and a fifth string quartet. Other dictionaries and online references copy this larger list (or some features of it), but I can't find any trace of the scores themselves or performances of them. Here's an extract from the article, which itself makes no mention of any individual pieces:


Help in identifying any of these other works would be appreciated.

For what it is worth:  I started transcribing Carl's string trio (from IMSLP) to get a score, since this is a relatively rare genre and additions of good works to the repertoire might be welcome.  However I got bored in the middle of the first movement because the music seemed to say nothing to me.  It is pleasant enough and very "chamber musical", but just boring and uninspired.

BTW it seems to be "Carl" most of the time.  Carl is (unaccountably) a very common spelling of the name in Germany; e.g. Carl Maria von Weber or Carl Gustav Jung.

Re: "Carl" - yes, that's clear, but I used Karl here to be consistent with the heading of the thread.

Why would you need to transcribe the Carl Gradener String Trio to get a score when there is a perfectly good one as part of the violin part?  And the version from Sibley available on IMSLP is excellent quality and the Schuberth edition has rehearsal letters as well?  It would seem that everything one needs is already to be found there. Or were you transcribing it to arrange it for a different combination?

As an aside, I have played it and found it one of his better works, although, perhaps, this is not saying a lot. Still, our group liked it and thought the opening movement quite original...Of course, tastes vary.

I know that.  But I do typesetting sometimes just to get to know a piece.  I can't really read harmony, so I use playback to hear the chords.  Also I find myself skipping too much when just trying to read a score.  It really was curiosity about the piece in the first place that made me do it (or rather begin to do it).

Further on:  If the piece turned out worth it I could get a regular violin part out of it.  That score is an awkward thing to sight read out of (and to page turn).

I only just discovered the soundbites of Hermann's String Quartet No.1 Op.33 on editionsilvertrust.com. With distinct hints of Dvorak in the finale and rather less evidence (to my ears) of Brahms, it seems a more interesting piece than the second quartet. Could Santo possibly divulge which group we hear playing and where the recording comes from?

Yes, Santo,  that would be good to know.

The soundbites of the Hermann Gradener String Quartet No.1 are from a radio recording by the Munchnser Streichquartett. Can't remember where we got them from, but it could have been here...

Guess it wasn't here Mark since you too want to know.  After typing the last sentence, I walked away from the computer to check our CD library and sure enough, I found a CD of it there. But, it was a CD someone, wish I knew who, made for us. On the disk, it says, "Concert performance at the Lucerne Festival, 13 August 2006. Broadcase by BBC Radio 3 on 5 March 2007. It was coupled with Klughardt's String Quintet Op.62

Mark, are you sure you did not make this for us?

I have this recording, but I didn't make it, so...

I'm not at home at present, Santo, so I can't check. It'll be embarrassing if it turns out it came from me! Bear with me until Sunday, please...

To my shame I never followed up Santo Neuenwelt's query but now, after more than a year, I can make amends. Although I had obviously quite forgotten about it at the time, I was indeed his source for the recording of Hermann Grädener's String Quartet No.1, excerpts of which can be heard at Edition Silvertrust's site. It isn't my recording but, as it's of a radio broadcast, I have posted it in our Downloads Board here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,6497.msg68691.html#new). It's a very pleasant work, but I suspect that it would benefit from a rather fierier peformance than it gets here.

Thanks very much, Mark. I'm looking forward to getting properly acquainted with the first quartet, the parts of which aren't available on imslp. But when (oh when?!) will a couple of enterprising quartets get together to record the octet?

And we've already, as I noted elsewhere, had one good and missed opportunity for an appropriate place to record some of Hermann's orchestral music instead of a duplication...

For all those interested in Hermann Grädener:
Good news!
Violin Concertos No.1 and 2 will be recorded in July 2018. Label of publication not yet clear, perhaps Naxos.
Score of Concerto No.1 got lost in 2nd world war (was publ. by Breitkopf & Härtel). Newly rewritten now. The first concerto had been premiered on 21.12.1890 in a concert of the Vienna Philharmonic, cond. Hans Richter, soloist Adolf Brodsky.

That is indeed good news, thanks for passing it on.

QuoteScore of Concerto No.1 got lost in 2nd world war (was publ. by Breitkopf & Härtel). Newly rewritten now.

What does this mean, please? Is it reconstructed from orchestral parts? Is it newly orchestrated from the piano/violin score? Can you explain please?

According to Breitkopf in Germany, Score and orchestra material of the 1st Violin Concerto are lost. You cannot rent it from them.
The last copies apparently got destroyed or lost in WW2.
After a long search, a handwritten copy (in a copyist's handwriting) of the score was found. Comparing it with the violn/piano edition, there are minor changes besides a lot of obvious writing errors. Apparently, Grädener had changed a few things in the process of creating the piano reduction or while proofreading it. Usually, the composers at that time made the piano reductions themselves if not otherwise mentioned.
That means, score and parts will be newly written after comparing them carefully with the printed violin/piano edition, which is almost without misprints.

Thank you. This sort of thing happens ocasionally. At least there was a full score (even if it wasn't the autograph) so the composer's original orchestration could be used. I recall working on the MS of Brull's VC, since there was no published full score or set of parts and finding a few not insignificant differences between the autograph MS and the printed piano/violin score.

The score for No.1 wasn't lost; it was at the Library of Congress. I got a copy from LOC and gave it to Karen. Rabl will create new performance materials for the recording.

It is a wonderful piece.

This is fascinating - and I'm greatly looking forward to hearing the music. Thank you!

Likewise here.
The Library of Congress online card catalog contains much uncertainty ("unk" entries for example) and I'm sure many items are not in their catalog at all - etc. Wonderful things have "turned up" there, if memory serves (at least, the original version of Stenhammar concerto 1 did too, and other things if I vaguely recall.)
Anyhow, good news I expect; I haven't seen -either- Grädener's orchestral writing iirc, but have enjoyed their chamber music as rendered by Steve @ IMSLP and generally as uploaded.

(I'm selfishly hoping it's Naxos, cpo or some other of the labels that at least eventually stream through Naxos Music Library so I can hear it there first, instead of Hyperion or MDG etc., but I am sometimes selfish that way. Anyway again, thanks for the announcement!)

Out of curiosity, while ÖNB's catalog seems to suggest that at least one of Hermann Graedener's symphonies (no.2 in C minor, 1903, published 1912) survives in score (http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AC09178937), is it in good enough shape to create parts from and are there any plans to record it at some point in the (indefinite...) future?

(Edit: of course, maybe some other library -has- the parts. Search time, later...)

Edit: Free Library of Philly, Fleisher Collection, score and parts. Should have known to check there first. Score and Parts and movement listing even. (https://know.freelibrary.org/Record/323342) (Though it's sometimes been reported that their scores and parts are -not- as useable as a library catalog can quickly indicate, I think...) (note: click "MARC" at the bottom for full information, yes.)

I can provide a scan of the C minor symphony (score only), PM me in case anyone's interested. It's rather low quality though and the pages aren't in order (no time on my hands to fix this at the moment, that's why I'm hesitant to put it on IMSLP).

The scan is low quality, or the music?

we have plenty of scores with this problem @ IMSLP - so long as they're clearly numbered, someone else down the line can reupload a corrected pdf. anyhow thanks if so!

Quote from: Mark Thomas on Thursday 22 February 2018, 22:25
The scan is low quality, or the music?

The scan of course, can't really say too much about the music just yet, other than that it looks competent enough and appears to be imbued with a healthy dose of late 19th-century Germanic counterpoint, think Berger or early Schmidt ...

Quote from: eschiss1 on Thursday 22 February 2018, 22:27
we have plenty of scores with this problem @ IMSLP - so long as they're clearly numbered, someone else down the line can reupload a corrected pdf. anyhow thanks if so!

True, but also I haven't got around to removing the library stamps and I'm kind of paranoid when it comes to this, even with works in the public domain. Oh well, I'll do it some time this spring in any case.

Is there any further news about the recording of Hermann's two Violin Concertos, please?

if there's a problem in uploading to IMSLP in that regard, ask the copyright-admins first (with some details to the question)...

Please see this new thread for news of Hermann's two VCs:
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,7237.0.html (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,7237.0.html)

Here's Hermann's Lustspiel (Comedy) Overture:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aPMv_cqBR0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aPMv_cqBR0)

That's a find! Thanks, Alan.