Dear Raffians,
It is very likely that this topic has already been discussed in the former Forum. In that case my apologies for re-addressing this subject, but I cannot remember your opinions anymore. And maybe your thoughts have changed in the meantime. Hence this thread, for I believe that Raff's symphonies belong to his most important output.
Over the past days I have listened to all symphonies again. Except for #1 (Rhenish PO) I have them all performed by the Bamberger Symphoniker.
Raff's Lenore, with its attractive and delightful 2nd and 3rd movements, and Im Walde, already after 21 seconds with the characteristic "Raffian" winds, are commonly seen as Raff's most popular symphonies.
However, mine is still his first, An das Vaterland. Is it because it is the first Raff symphony on CD which I have bought? Is it the story behind the title, the programmatic element, a patriotic hint (Was ist des deutschen Vaterland? Interesting enough, since Raff's origin is Swiss)? No, not for me. It is just the music itself. The first movement is not even that special, but then it begins. A lovely scherzo and catchy, melodic fourth and fifth movements. But for me Raff never wrote such a great movement as the larghetto of his opus 96 again. A serene start, but then, after 6 minutes comes an unparallelled outburst of emotions in the middle part, ending in the same peaceful mood.
Of course, it's all a matter of personal taste, but this music touches the heart and makes the symphony not only my Raff's number one, but ranks Raff definitely between all Great Composers. Not so many celebrated romantic symphony composers wrote such a firstling. Maybe Brahms, Mendelssohn, Schumann and Tchaikovsky. Without doubt Raff belongs to these great "symphonists", which makes it hard to bear that his music is now so unjustified neglected.
Enough said. My question to all of you is: what is your favourite Raff symphony, and why?
I find this hard to answer. I have always thought that Raff's four greatest symphonies are nos. 2-5 and that they represent perfectly the competing tendencies within his eleven works in the genre. Thus nos. 3 and 5 contain his most vivid scene-painting, whereas nos. 2 and 4 represent his concern for absolute music at its best. To put it somewhat simplistically we find the competing tendencies of Romanticism and Classicism.
Beyond this I find it harder and harder to choose. On different days I would be happy with any one of these as my favourite - although Im Walde, and especially that wonderfully evocative first movement, probably presses the right buttons for me more than the others...
Having said which I am very fond of No.6 too. Ah well...
I have only heard No. 3 Im Walde and No. 10 Zur Herbstzeit...so No. 3 is my natural choice with the largo favorite; I find the beautiful woodwind passages languorously beautiful with the sudden piu mosso middle passage . I'm waiting to hear No. 5 . I know this is a discussion about Raff symphonies but there is one other symphony that has had an impression on me (beside the obvious Berwald No. 3) - Kallinikov's Symphony No. 1.
Preference tends to vary, although I have some problems with #3. Not that I don't acknowledge its quality, but I don't really love it the way I do certain others. The ones that I play most often are, in order of frequency, #11, #5, #8, #1, #6 and then the rest (according to iTunes).
I can't quite explain where that fondness for #11 comes from, but it is one of those rare pieces I can always listen to.
On different days you get different answers from me but overall Alan has pre-empted me by writing pretty much what I would have written. Nos. 2-5 show Raff at his best.
Amongst the Seasons quartet though, the Spring, Summer and Autumn symphonies are let down for me only by their finales whereas, in contrast to Alan, I still find only the slow movement funeral march of the Sixth Symphony a really convincing piece of work. Isolated movements of some other symphonies are touched with genius too but overall I relegate the First, Seventh and Eleventh, enjoyable though they are, to the status of definite also-rans.
That said, overall the Symphony No.5 Lenore would be my choice if I had to narrow it down to one. The soaring, joyful first movement and the tender, sexy second are perfect illustrations of different aspects of love and the finale is as sure footed and downright exciting a piece of programme music as anything in the Sinfonie Fantastique. Sure, the third movement march sounds a bit simplistic on a recording but it's very effective in the concert hall, and the Trio section is a wonderfully tragic evocation of separation which comes as a shock in the middle of all that military triumphalism. The whole work has all of Raff's characteristic melodiousness and imaginative orchestration whilst still needing quite modest forces. To cap it all, it concludes with that serene and increasingly ethereal apotheosis which, even after knowing the work for almost forty years, seldom fails to move me.
I find this question rather difficult to answer. I'd need to play through all the recordings I have 2 or 3 times to definitely make up my mind. I do find No 1 a bit too long and pompous for me, but that might be due to the slow tempi adopted by Friedman on the 20 year old Marco Polo CD. Off the top of my head, I would say its going to be a toss up between No 2 with its brilliant scherzo and No 10 with its splendid hunting finale.
Number 9 for me. It is a wonderful affirmation of life.
I'm with you on that. I think the finale of the 9th is much stronger when it hasn't had its guts whacked out with a red editor's pen.
But as far as favorites are concerned #5 does it for me.
No question: no. 5. Then 3. Lenore has so much going for it. The first movement is just thrilling. It moves along rapidly, doesn't get off course, has clear-cut themes. I just love the closing group of the exposition (third theme?). So exciting and hair-raising. The second movement so beautiful. The third movement, which I have played in concert, seems cheap and trivial at first, but when done properly (Bernard Herrmann!) it's very effective. The last movement is the problem. Finales were problems for many composers. This one works when the conductor doesn't try to be pretty. It needs to be played with a lot of strength and intensity. Great symphony. Too bad it isn't played in our concert halls.
Hello everyone.
The order I got to know his symphonies was something like this: 5, 3, 8, 4, 9, 1, 2, 7, 6, 10, 11 and for many years the 9th was my favourite. Then, Adriano, a Swiss music producer and old friend, who'd sent me my original recording of the 9th, sent me a radio dub he'd made of the 7th and gradually this elbowed the 9th into 2nd place. I think it's partly the Raff vitality, with his characteristic long musical thoughts that captivate me in number 7 (the 9th has these in abundance too.) I'm afraid I've never been 'In the Alps', but I think the composer gives me a picture of them in this work.
The 7th is rarely mentioned and, it seems, is one of the least popular of his symphonies, but for me, it's the favourite.
Cheers, Lew Lewis
I also find It is hard to decide, because of I love all Raff music taht I had chance to listen to.
Maybe, the 3rd, "In the Forest" would be considered a masterwork of the Romantic Era.
Greetings from Barcelona, Spain.
Fernando Oliva (now, I am back to the Forum under the nickname Alexander_Glazraffstein). :)
Welcome back Fernando! ;D
Yes Fernando, we've missed you. Hope you and your family are OK!
Right on schedule Fernando! ;)
Dear friends and Rafficionados:
Many thanks for your warm welcome!
I am glad to come back to meet you. I will follow enjoying your expert thougts and recommendations.
I just would add the weakest Raff Symphony, in my opinion is the 1st. "To the Fatherland", along with the two last movements of the 8th. Symphony.
Now as for my family, they are doing okay. My baby girl likes the music! She even had dinner on listening to the Liszt "Battle of the Huns"... :o
Greetings from Barcelona,
:)
Fernando.
Fernando, I'm happy to welcome you as a Spanish member! But why do you have to hurt my feelings... because I love Raff's An das Vaterland most of all... ;)
Hey, fernando; welcome back. Forum(s) havent been quite the same without you!
Steve
No.1 is surely the weakest of Raff's symphonies - but it's hard not to be won over by its sheer invention and patent sincerity. I love it too!
Dear Raffians, after reading all your interesting comments I have decided to create my own ideal Raff symphony. I just replace the Allegro of the 1st by the Allegro of his 4th, and let it follow by the four lovely other movements of An das Vaterland ;D
The no 6 is usually called the weakest. I listened to it. It still leaves me a bit confused ... (I can't make out weather I hate it or otherwise!)... The finale of this one is certainly weak
I think its just a good all round symphony. I particularly like the funeral march but must admit its not quite up to the standard of the march in No 5.
I just came back from a weekend meeting in a little village alongside the Rhine, near Wiesbaden. My German hosts asked me to give a short table speech, and after a few minutes business talk I thought to take this opportunity.
My first question to my audience was whether they thought Wiesbaden was a beautiful city with a lot of cultural sights. O yes, of course. (I agreed, for I have visited Wiesbaden a few times). And secondly if there are classical music lovers around our table. Almost everyone responded positive. A lot of names, of course including Robert Schumann. My last question was: does anybody know which famous composer lived and worked for some two decades in Wiesbaden, a city with a rich cultural history? Silence. :-[
Nobody familiar with the beautiful music of Joachim Raff? Believe it or not, one person said Aber der Raff ist doch nicht ein Deutscher sondern ein Schweizer? Then I raised my glass and told my audience about Raff's first symphony "An das Vaterland".
Thanks for your contribution to the Raff cause, Peter! Although there are monuments (http://www.raff.org/life/denkmal.htm) to Raff in his birthplace of Lachen, Switzerland and a very big memorial over his grave in Frankfurt, there is nothing which commemorates his 20-odd years in Wiesbaden. What a shame.
As to the question posed by the person at your dinner, my take on the answer is here (http://www.raff.org/life/national.htm)...
Thank you for your interesting reply, Mark. Thinking of that memorable Saturday evening dinner, the most funny thing was that I succeeded in keeping some 25 Germans quiet for a few seconds. ;D Thanks to Joachim Raff!
Hi all
Herr Raff would love this kind of thread, partly because it will always be part of an endless but enjoyable and profitable discussion.
I do have a couple of favourites among the symphonies. But after various listening sprees, I have only one very firm impression of his entire corpus of symphonies. That impression is recognition of their individuality. There is no standard formula - each work has to be taken on its own merits/demerits.
I think it was Don Luis (in an archived thread) who pointed out a way to appreciate his true greatness. Compare the movements of symphonies - eg, try listening to second movements from a random selection of the words - 5 or 6, or all of them. And other movements, in the same way.
Numbers three and five are still my favourites. The final movement of the 3rd (when I first heard it) remains my most surprising experience of romantic era music, and the splendid coda (D'Avalos conducting) the best of all 'grand finales' among Raff's works.
regards
Peter
As a new member as of today, I would like to start by saying that I am a committed Raff enthusiast, who firmly believes that Raff should be far better known than he is!
I am hugely impressed by both the official Raff site and also this site and look forward to having many interesting conversations with other members, not only on Raff but also on other lesser known composers ( I am also very fond of Kurt Atterberg for example), many of whom I have discovered thanks to the CPO label.
For my first posting, I would like to give my view on the topic of favourite Raff symphony. I have read other members views on this topic with keen interest. Generally, I am in agreement with both Mark and Alan that both historically and emotionally, symphonies 2-5 rank among his very best works, with the nod going perhaps to symphony no 5 as being his very best. Obviously the answer to this question is highly subjective and everyone has his or her own particular favourite. I love the Lenore symphony and although Mark finds the third movement march a little simplistic in a sense and I can certainly see why he might say that, at the same time, I find this particular movement very appealing and never tire of listening to it! So it seems I am saying number 5 is my favourite? Let me say however, that I enjoy all of Raff's symphonies and in each one there is always at least one favourite movement for me. At the same time, I would add that some movements succeed less well than others for me and we can all share that particular feeling.
That said, I have a particular liking for symphony no 11 and just like Ilya, I keep coming back to this symphony often. I find the first movement particularly evocative of winter with the first downfall of snow and easily imagine a scene of great beauty, with a winter landscape dressed in the purity of freshly fallen snow ( I get the same feeling when listening to Tchaikovsky's symphony no 1 Winter Dreams!).
So there it is - for me a toss up between no 5 and no 11.
I have just acquired a copy of Bernard Herrmann's recording of No.5. Although the sound is not quite up to the finest modern standards, the performance is the best I have ever heard: it raises the piece to another level as far as I am concerned - which brings up another intriguing, if frustrating question, i.e. what would it sound like in the hands of one of today's great conductors and played by one of today's great orchestras?
Firstly, welcome Dennis and many thanks for the compliments about raff.org. I can never get too many, you know!
Secondly, it's interesting that so many people have a soft spot for No.11, considering that Raff himself was unconfident enough about it to actually suppress it in his lifetime. I always assumed that this was because he was subject to an uncharacteristic fit of self criticism but Avrohom Leichtling, in his essay on the work, contends that it was more likely because it represented a radical departure from his previous style and that in the succeeding symphonies, published as Nos.8-10, he moved more gradually to the sparer and more modern aesthetic he established in Der Winter. It was conceived as the first in the cycle, of course, although it was published posthumously as the last of the Seasons. From the recordings which I had heard I had always regarded it as one of his poorer efforts. Then Stadlmiar's superb interpretation quite changed my view of it.
Finally, Bernard Herrmann. Alan is right. His is still the definitive reading of Lenore I think.
Thanks Mark for your comments on symphony no 11. I was aware that this symphony was published posthumously from the liner notes but it was stimulating to read your quote from Avrohom Leichtling suggesting that Raff was moving towards a sparer and more modern aesthetic. This seems to make very good sense. Yes, I have a soft spot for this symphony but prefer the outer movements, as I find movements 2 and 3 marginally les satisfying.
Re- the Raff site, I tried to stream the extracts from the piano quartet no 2 but initially was not able to do so as the message came up in I tunes as "continuous". This has also happened with other more recent entries on the Raff site. As luck would have it, my daughter's friend was staying with us and he is, unlike me very computer literate. He said that the "links within .m3u files need spaces to be replaced by "%20". He showed me how to do this and I now have no problem streaming the newer musical additions on the site. Does this make sense to you or was it merely a problem on my computer?
Cheers
Dennis
I an understand what your friend is saying, but it's the first I've heard of it being a problem. Maybe it's a Mac thing, iTunes being an Apple product. I've certainly experienced no problems myself, but in my set up Windows Media Player takes care of streaming audio. I'll investigate...
Being a mac owner, I never experienced a similar problem. (combination Firefox/iTunes).
thanks Mark for your reply re- my difficulty streaming certain extracts on the Raff site. The problem seemed to arise only on certain works(newer entries?) and I have listened to a large number of extracts merely by clicking on the icon. As I now know what to do, it's no longer a problem as such. I note that Ilya says it's not a Mac problem. I use a Dell computer.
By the way, I would still like to have your thoughts on Erkki Melartin, especially his violin concerto.
Regards
Dennis
Dennis, I've replied to you by private email.
I have just listened again to Raff's less beloved 6th. Definitely an attractive and interesting symphony to listen to, and I simply love it. Maybe not as good as most of his other symphonies, but that is partly due to the last movement, I guess.
This symphony raises a question, which I like to discuss in a seperate topic.
The 6th is one of my guilty pleasures. I particularly love the first movement coda - exciting, or what?
Oops, for seven years no one wrote something here. Today, I listened again to the "In Summer" symphony of Joachim Raff and its seems to become my favourite symphony of his along the "Lenore". It is such a wonderful symphony and the main theme of the 1st movement is one of those melodies that will stay in my mind for days. I listened to the Stadlmair recording today and I have to check soon whether I prefer this one or the Albert on cpo.
@Lew Lewis (who, unfortunately, posted as a guest only).
I am intrigued about what you write, since I have no idea anymore who you are (sorry) :-(
As posted in earlier Raff chapters, there are quite a few of his Symphonies or Symphony movements which I find a bit boring and superficial, but excellently orchestrated and perfectly constructed. I miss in Raff the sparkle and tightness of a Mendelssohn or the dephth of a Schumann - nevertheless, if perfomed/interperted well, Raff can be "sold" - and we Swiss should be proud of him. I find his Grand Quintuor for piano and string quartet much better than some of his Symphonies or his great (and "Great") piano trios...
"Leonore" remains my favorite: in there, Raff almost breaks the mould...
Hi Adriano
nice to also meet you here. We recently had some exchange on your Brun series on another forum.
Best regards
Lutz from Stuttgart
A quick reminder, if I may: personal messages are best sent via UC's PM facility.
You may, I did not realize this forum has this function, nice :)
I know, Alan, but he is a guest and there is no possibility to send a personal message
Well, actually he's a member, so...
And how can I know this? I just answered his old posting of June 2009, where he wrote as a guest. Is there a complete member list somewhere?
I try to solve this misunderstanding via UC PM.
Apologies, Adriano. Obviously I have this information as Administrator.
I listened to the Seventh Symphony "In The Alps" while hiking through the Alps in Switzerland, and while it was a perfect experience where the music matched seamlessly with the landscapes, I can't seem to recreate that enjoyment when listening to it at home. It makes me imagine that Raff spend many days hiking waiting for the melodic inspiration to come to him, and he did an amazing job. For my favorite symphony in any setting, it would be his third, "Im Walde."
The best performance of No.7 that I've heard was reviewed here:
https://www.raff.org/news/reviews/2001/stgallen.htm (https://www.raff.org/news/reviews/2001/stgallen.htm)
My best too, obviously, but I don't think the symphony as a whole is amongst his best. Although atmospheric and boasting Raff's usual melodic generosity, it's too diffuse and too repetitive.
I agree. It struggles to maintain interest as "absolute music" as for me.
Symphony No. 8 "Spring" - the 1st movement has become my all time favorite piece of music by Raff. He manages to capture the joy of spring with one beautiful tune after another calumniating in a hair raising coda. Pity we don't have a stellar recording of this symphony.
That first movement is one of those pieces where the music is well-written; it just has to have the proper interpretation to shine.
My strong sense is that we haven't heard the best of most of the symphonies. Järvi has done a fine job, but we need more recordings from him or someone who really 'gets' Raff.
Slowly moving through the Raff cycle (not in chronological order) I have just arrived at No. 7 and find it absolutely wonderful. All the movements are near perfect imho and don't outstay their welcome (at least for my ears). I was especially happy with the finale which in so far I have found to be Raff's weakest point. The Finale of the 7th not only keeps up with the preceding 3 but somehow manages to go a step past them - Pity he didn't combine all the 3 preceding movement themes instead of just the 1st juxtaposed with the motives of the finale. Splendid symphony.
I still find his 3-5 symphonies the most enjoyable and satisfying(incidentally that's the same trio for Stanford for me as well)
Shame we get dozens upon dozens of new Brahms symphonies, as an example, each year it seems but we don't get those above I've mentioned more often(or at all is more correct).
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 05 August 2019, 00:07
My strong sense is that we haven't heard the best of most of the symphonies. Järvi has done a fine job, but we need more recordings from him or someone who really 'gets' Raff.
That's very true, although some of the symphonies have suffered more than others. Particularly No. 1 had been subjected to a number of - at best - lacklustre treatments that have left its reputation in tatters even among Raff afficionados.
As a pendant to Ilja's comment about No.1 (with which I agree), it's recently been discovered that, sometime after the Austro-Prussian war of 1866, which brought the real prospect of German unification (which came in 1871), Raff wrote to his publisher that he intended to compose a new finale, thereby excising the no-longer relevant "yearning for German unity" elements which dominate the last two movements, which it would have replaced. It seems that performances of An das Vaterland had fallen off and he hoped by this means to restore it to the repertoire. I wonder if, had he gone ahead with this plan, we'd look more kindly on a shorter four-movement Symphony, shorn of the nationalistic bombast which, after two world wars, can jar so to modern listeners, even though Raff was merely giving voice to a much more innocent and entirely understandable aspiration shared by most of his countrymen?
My favourite is number 5. But on Sunday November 17 I will hear number seven in concert in Baden (Switzerland), played by an amateur orchestra. It is the first time that I have the opportunity to hear a Symphony by Raff in a concert. And I am very excited about that.
I was hugely disappointed with Jarvi's take on the 5th. Far too fast and frankly I don't care if it is in line with Raff's tempo markings it just sounds awful played that way. I'm sort of glad he never did the 3rd and 4th symphonies because he would've probably ruined those as well. Hope I'm not alone in this.
On the other hand, I suspect that if one starts with Järvi, everyone else will sound earthbound by comparison...
QuoteI don't care if it is in line with Raff's tempo markings it just sounds awful played that way
Even if that was what the composer intended? Interesting. If I were a composer I would like performers to follow, as far as possible, the instructions given in my score. Isn't it possibly the case that our introduction to the symphony was a performance in which slower tempi were adopted so we have got used to that - compare Klemperer's tempi in the Beethoven symphonies with those of Roger Norrington, for example. Yet it is generally acknowledged that Norrington's are closer to those which Beethoven wished and expected to hear. I suppose I'm only saying what Alan has written, but with examples.
Oh please don't get me started on HIP of Beethoven symphonies - they sound terrible to my ears! whoosh - All the romanticism is gone from them. If people enjoy Jarvi's performances that's fine by me but I grew up on Bernard Herrmann's magnificent account which just ''sounds right'' too me. I'm more than happy to live with a ''wrong'' interpretation.
Spot-on, Gareth. Thanks.
I just want to add that is was that recording of Hermann's 5th that made me a Raff lover for life. I immediately knew Raff was something special, and made me want to explore more of his works and I haven't looked back. My allegiance is therefore very strong to that recording, and I don't think it will ever be broken.
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Sunday 10 November 2019, 14:59
Isn't it possibly the case that our introduction to the symphony was a performance in which slower tempi were adopted so we have got used to that
If the roles were reversed, where Herrmann was faithful to the markings and Järvi was much slower, some may have said that he ruined it by being too "sluggish." I agree with Kevin that it is preferable, but it certainly isn't "awful" in my opinion. As Mark has said, the music keeps up and it doesn't lose its effectiveness. That helps demonstrate just how skilled Raff was as an orchestrator.
Järvi's tempi are definitely what Raff would have expected to hear - von Bülow once wrote that "with Raff everything goes rather quickly". It's true that to those of us who cut our teeth on Herrmann's rendition of Lenore, Järvi's account came as something of a shock, but it's the one which I listen to most often now. I do think, though, that his orchestra scrambles somewhat to keep up in the first few bars, and that gives an impression of "too fast" which can easily stick in the memory, even though the rest of the performance is impeccable. FWIW, Kevin, my advice is to stick with it - the performance is really quite revelatory once you're used to it.
Järvi in Raff isn't really as radical as Norrington in, say, Beethoven - for example, he doesn't dispense with vibrato in the string section (which I dislike). It's really just a question of tempi and here he is evidently much more faithful to Raff than, say, Herrmann. Having said which, I don't think one has to choose. Why not have both and learn to appreciate them both?
QuoteWhy not have both and learn to appreciate them both?
Yeah, I only listened to Jarvi once because I was left speechless of the speeds he took with all the movements(how can he do this to Raff I thought?) I think I will give him another go and listen with fresh eyes(ears?) No promises if I'll like it though ;D
QuoteI don't think one has to choose. Why not have both and learn to appreciate them both?
I totally agree, Alan.
Ok I've given this Lenore another go, several gos in fact, and I must admit I've warmed to it more than I expected. I think in my case I like to think of it as one long tone poem all played at an exhilarating tempo which works quite well(it's not a traditional symphony when played like this in my view, which is fine maybe that's what Raff intended, I have no idea). The slow and march movements are still too fast for me but I can live with it. It's not going to replace Herrmann or Stadlmair for me but I can now see the virtues of it more clearly, it helps to have an open mind like others have said(quite frankly I conditioned my mind to it as if it was the first time I've heard the symphony - it worked.) It helps enormously that we have a world class orchestra do justice to Raff's virtuoso orchestration, always a big plus in my book and the studio sound captures many tiny details missing in other recordings. I take it back, it would've been, at the very least, interesting what Jarvi could have done with the 3rd and 4th symphonies. Honestly, I'd like another set of the Seasons Symphonies, my next favourite Raff(I've a strong fondness for the 8th and 9th).
One final thought on Lenore. The poem on which Raff based the symphony is, essentially, a nightmare and his fast tempi underline that feverish quality in the music. As for the final four symphonies, the Eighth Symphony in particular still lacks a recommendable recorded performance.
No recommendable Eighth? I have Stadlmair, Albert, Schneider and Lehel. Maybe I should sit down with a score, but at least the first two sound fine to me. (Given the circumstances of the recording biz, I wonder if there will ever be any more recordings of Raff symphonies.)
I think what Mark means (and I agree with him) is that as far as the splendid 8th is concerned, none of the performance has done justice to it properly. Most of the recordings are fine. The Albert in particular is a disaster - Sounds like the recording of an early rehearsal. Schneider and Lehel are fine. Only Stadlmair gives us a performance that has some punch to it but here his tempo is a bit rushed and one longs to hear the finer details. I think the main problem is that since Raff is such a fantastic orchestrator, it takes a dedicated and committed conductor to bring out all the nuances - Raff's woodwind and Brass writing are nothing short of genius. I also think most people (conductors) take for granted the one accusation against Raff that seems to persist - that he writes banal tunes at times. I don't think so. Instead he (as did Godard in many of his works) uses short seemingly uninteresting tunes and develops them into massive structures. In any case... lets hope there's a Raff set still to come, that gives us a fine 8th finally.
Thanks, FBerwald, that saves me some writing! For me, Albert's interpretation had the potential to show the symphony off at its best, but the performance and recording itself are dismal, a great shame. Stadlmair came close in the first three movements, but then throws it all away in the finale, which comes over as an almost trite tail-chasing piece. Raff's contemporaries criticised the bustle of the finale, missing the point that it is intentionally anxious and nervy, illustrating the restlessness which Raff himself felt at the onset of spring. Unfortunately Stadlmair made the same mistake.
It's cliche at this point but Im Walde will always be my favorite. It is one of the works by him that I first encountered and loved (Also, is anyone familiar of this live performance of it by a Japanese Orchestra? https://youtu.be/Jl6GdVS6bkM (https://youtu.be/Jl6GdVS6bkM))
Other than that, The Winter, Autumn, and the 2nd symphonies are quite high as well.
Nothing wrong at all with having Im Walde as your favourite - it's one of Raff's masterpieces. Thanks for the link to the Japanese performance - new to me.
Quotethe Japanese performance
Hmmm. Not great. Rather scrappy.
That's a shame. I've downloaded it to listen later.
I don't think it adds anything - unfortunately. It's just not well enough played.
I enjoy them all immensely haha. He was such a genius. And what's with the ridiculous verification for a post?
The verification only applies to your first couple of posts. It's part of our anti-spam defences, something which benefits the whole community here.
Quotethe ridiculous verification for a post
It generally stops all sorts of ridiculous people posting ridiculous and sometimes offensive statements. This is something up with which we will not put (to quote a phrase).
Hello all,
Its like asking which is your favourite child. Saying that, alot of parents seems to to be drawn to their youngest. So I would say my favourite is the last.
Yes, but which one is your last :D ? No.10, I assume, despite the misleading publication of the slightly earlier no.11 with a later number? Or? (Of course if your early discarded (partly reused in the suite in C major) symphony in E minor is ever re-discovered, we'll just have to add "1" to all the numbers...)*
*Or just call it symphony no.0, Brucknerische...
Here some pictures inspired by Bürger's ballad "Lenore" - some of which may have inspired Raff to compose his Symphony, César Franck to compose his symphonic poem "Chasseur Maudit" and Henri Duparc his symphonic poem "Lénore".
https://eclecticlight.co/2018/09/30/the-dead-travel-fast-the-gothic-ballad-of-lenore-in-paint/
Sorry, I thought Franck's Le Chasseur Maudit was inspired by Berger's Der Wilde Jager? (Sorry for the off topic comment)
You are perfectly right, Jonathan, sorry!
(My long message was written at about 04:00 hrs. in the morning, during a sleepless monlight night :-)
To make it good, I add three more musical versions of "Lenore":
Franz Liszt: "Lenore" (Melodram, 1857)
https://imslp.org/wiki/Lenore,_S.346_(Liszt,_Franz)
Antonio Smareglia: "Leonora, Sinfonia descrittiva" (1876). His opera "Nozze Istriane" has been recorded by Bongiovanni (see a previous short thread of 2015).
And, last but not least - a recording from my collection which I had totally forgotten:
Anton Reicha: "Lenore, Grand musical tableau for soli, chorus and orchestra" (very recommendable; there once was a version on Orfeo; the more recent one is a superb Supraphon CD.
I'm guessing Lenore inspired Klughardt's 2nd symphony, too?
Definitely, eschiss1 - thanks :-)
My memory is definitely falling...
Quote from: vesteel on Monday 02 December 2019, 12:11
Is anyone familiar of this live performance of it by a Japanese Orchestra? https://youtu.be/Jl6GdVS6bkM (https://youtu.be/Jl6GdVS6bkM))
It isn't terrible, but the ensemble doesn't sound all together. For example, bad notes made by the brass at 18:50. Technically sounds like each musician recorded their part alone in a studio and then someone put them all together.
Let's forget that performance. It does Raff no favours at all.
From their web site: "ISP gathers players who are active in various orchestras. Perform "experiments" regardless of existing concepts aiming to explore new "value perspective". It is an amateur orchestra".
The first and last sentences make sense, but the second?
If it's a translation from Japanese then it makes complete sense that it doesn't make any sense. Eg. Yasujirō Ozu's beautiful movies have some horrible subtitles even though you get a general idea what's being said on screen.
I must confess that I got to know Raff only just recently - through this website! Thank you for pointing me to him. Last weekend I listened to symphonies 1 - 5. What I can say so far: I love
- the slow movement of #1,
- mov. 2 - 3 of #2,
- mov. 1 and the wonderful ending of mov. 4 of #3
- mov. 1 - 3 of #4
- only the solemn ending of #5
As a whole I adore the 4th symphony the most and I am surprised that in this thread this one was hardly refered to at all - what a powerful work!!!
Which overtures can you recommend to me?
Perhaps you would care to give us the reasons for your preferences, Gerd?
It depends what you respond to in Raff's music, I suppose but, as has recently been touched on in another thread, you can't go wrong with the late Preludes to Shakespeare's Tempest, Macbeth, Romeo & Juliet and Othello. They're powerful, highly inventive and technically advanced min-symphonic poems which really pack a punch. The opera overtures, apart from that to King Alfred, are all modelled on Rossini's: light, frothy pieces of fun. The best of the three concert overtures, just in my opinion of course, is the Festival Overture, which showcases one of Raff's most glorious melodic inventions. Although it's not an overture, it's also worth listening to his Elegie, a powerful piece which was the original slow movement of the 10th Symphony.
I'm surprised that you didn't find much to commend at least the first two movements of Lenore, the Fifth Symphony, Gerd. Why not?
I re-listened to the 5th now several times - and I have changed my assessment of the work now! First I was a irritated by the fast rushing tempo of the first movements beginning and did not see much substance there so that I didn't even listen to the whole movement. By now I love the jubilent outburst of joy at the end of the exposition and recapitulation and I realise that these fast phrases at the beginning just head to that outburst as a climax of joy. Also the slow movement with these long drawn melodies I appreciate now very much, but really fantastic is the joyful and powerful Scherzo and the soo wonderful and unique choral at the end of the 4th movement!
Still the 4th symphony in g-minor is my favourite. There I don't love only certain passages but every portion of the first 3 movements captivated me when listening to it last weekend. I want to study the score until I can share my impressions in more detail ...
I'm glad you reassessed Lenore - it really is a wonderfully inventive work, and I too think the redemptive chorale at the end is a masterstroke. Maybe you were listening to the Neeme Järvi recording? After many, many hearings I feel that he definitely takes the opening bars too fast. In my earlier reply about the overtures I forgot to mention Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott, which is a very powerful work, based on the famous Lutheran hymn, and another composition well worth a listen.
It may be that, in the symphonies, Gerd prefers the 'classical Raff' to the 'programmatic Raff'. I personally do in general, although I still think his greatest symphony is Im Walde.
I agree with Alan. No. 3 is perhaps the greatest of his earlier Symphonies; but there's something to be said about the Seasons cycle. I can't choose between anyone of them. All of them have something facsinating to offer. Winter, initially was an ugly duckling for me but now, it's something I go back to quite often.
I played No.10 (Stadlmaier) to a church social group yesterday and they applauded at the end!
yes, Mark, first I was listening to the Järvi recording, now I alsway listen to this with the score :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1gG2FI7Kbc
and the more I do this the more I get enthusiastic about this symphony! The second theme in the slow movement at 18:18 is just gorgeous!!! These kind of long melodies in the strings so far I knew only in Berlioz' Symphony Fantastique slow Movement or Tschaikowsky ... WOW !!
Herrmann's is a classic recording, but surely too slow? A bit like Klemperer in Beethoven - great, but are we sure this is how the music really should go?
It was the enthusiastic review in the Gramaphone that caused me to rush out and buy the Herrmann and a lifelong affection for Raff commenced. He might take the music more slowly than the composer intended, but I can forgive him for that,as the revelatory end justifies the means. Jarvi sounds to my ears just a little too fast.
Raff is fast. My take fwiw is that Järvi is by some way the best of the bunch we have barring the very opening of the work, where he's too fast, and the final chorale, where his tempo could also be slower. In all other respects, for me he takes the crown.
I still have the Järvi Chandos 5th symphony on my wants list - I really ought to buy it! I did get his recording of the 2nd a few weeks ago but I've not had time to give it a spin yet.
Is there any way another complete cycle of Raff Symphonies might come out? Surely CPO or Hyperion must see the potential for doing a cycle with a conductor who is sympathetic to Raff's music. Järvi's incomplete set just screams out for completion as does the Rufinatscha symphony cycle, but as Alan says, that's the topic for another post.
I don't think that's very realistic, I'm afraid. One presumes Chandos cut short Jaarvi's proposed recordings of Raff - and there were only two more symphonies (3 & 4) planned - because 2 and 5 did not sell enough copies for the company to think it financially worthwhile to continue. A great shame IMHO, but there we are.
I have been told that the reason the Chandos/Järvi cycle was abandoned wasn't poor sales, but because it was dependent on Järvi continuing as principal conductor of L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande. Parts had already been ordered for recordings of Symphonies Nos.3 Im Walde and 4, the sessions were booked and Järvi was reportedly enthusiastic about the music, but his contract renewal negotiations with the orchestra broke down unexpectedly and he left quite suddenly. The planned Raff recordings were collateral damage. Maybe the orchestra being Swiss brought with it some Swiss money too, I don't know, but for whatever reason it was Järvi's unexpected departure from Geneva that killed the project.
That certainly is a very great shame, Mark. Thanks for the clarification, though.
Raff's 11 symphonies have been mentioned in Dave Hurwitz's list of "10 Essential 19th- Century Symphony Cycles for Non-Beginners." At 19:44.
Please see this new thread on Hurwitz's choices:
https://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,9268.msg94655.html#new