I have recently acquired a recording of the piano concerto by Granados. however most of it is not by Granados but a 'realisation' by Melanie Mestri. this is not a new issue, the Alkan piano concerto is in reality by Klindworth, based on themes by Alkan, The Stanford third piano concerto is completely orchestrated by Geoffrey Bush. The so called Elgar piano concerto is cobbled together with a lot of wishful thinking by Robert Walker, and going back even further, Balakirev's second piano concerto had very substantial input from Lyapunov. There is a serious issue about how much of the original composers work exists for someone to claim it is by them and not a joint effort.
At least in those cases, this was credited somewhere visible. I gather some editors (for Muzyka/Sov. komp.?) had a reputation for very, very interventionist editing-without-comment (from a review of Roslavets recordings - of some of his later, rather more retro and Romantic works, I think- which because of this might have had to have been considered Roslavetz/(editor's name) in unknown proportion. At least in some of the cases above, I think- certainly in one that you rightly didn't mention, the Elgar/Payne 3rd (also, some recent completions of the Bruckner 9th finale, and a new edition of the Bruckner 9 as a whole)- the editor was very clear about, and published at length, just what they did, where, how, when :) )
The Alkan Piano Concerto is an orchestration by Karl Klindworth (in 1872 and revised in 1902.) of the three Etudes 8 to 10 of the Op. 39 set
It is also available on CD NAXOS 8.553702
Dmitri Feofanov (piano)
Razumovsky S.O.
Robert Stankovsky, conductor
Rec. 16-18 Dec 1995 Bratislava
See
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdFt2tda1Ho (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdFt2tda1Ho)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xvWmISPS1o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xvWmISPS1o)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AazXk1XMlY8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AazXk1XMlY8)
Claude
I do feel that a very important issue has been raised in regard to who did what and who really gets credit.
Tom :)
For some reason the "Albinoni Adagio" is creeping into my mind. When is someone going to start attributing it to Remo Giazzotto?
The 'completion/realisation' industry is in full swing these days. Of course, on occasions the result is a revelation (who'd be without Elgar/Payne Symphony 3?), but more often than not the product is some sort of hybrid using original material by the composer involved which is then imaginatively re-composed by someone else. I have no particular objections myself to this industry provided that it is made clear what one is buying into. So the real issue for me is what these hybrid works should be called. In the case of the Granados, for example, I'd've thought the piece should be called Concerto for Piano and Orchestra 'Patético' by Melani Mestre after music by Enrique Granados. In other words the name of the person responsible for the completion/realisation should really be up front and central.
In the case of Balakirev/Lyapunov it is fairly certain that only the finale was left incomplete by Balakirev, and that the composer did have fairly extensive input through deathbed consultations with his acolyte Lyapunov on how the finale was supposed to go. I think it was mostly the orchestration that was left incomplete, although some material might have been left up to Lyapunov's descretion.
Whilst in no way disparaging Bogatyrev's effective and idiomatic reconstruction of Tchaikovsy's Symphony in E flat, it has always irritated me that it was, and indeed still is, dubbed "Tchaikovsky's Seventh" when, had he not repudiated it, it would have been his Sixth. A related piece, the posthumously published Andante & Finale for piano and orchestra Op.79, which is also based on Tchaikovsky's sketches for two of the abandoned Symphony's movements, contains as much Taneiev as Tchaikovsky. An early example of the modern phenomenon, I suppose.
What kind of credit is due Raff as far as Liszt is concerned and perhaps vice-versa?
Tom :)
Aren't we talking here about modern-day realisations, though?
And how does one classify Night on the bare mountain in the Rimsky version? Every note is by Mussorgsky (I think) but it has been restructured and rescored. Should every performance carry R-K's name in the title, or does a mention in the programme note suffice?
I think his name should be mentioned as orchestrating is concerned. I'm assuming there quite different but I've only heard the RK version.
Tom :)
I thought Alan that we were discussing any changes?
Tom
We could be, Tom. But the Granados realisation is an example of a peculiarly modern phenomenon. It's almost a type of personal wish-fulfilment.
A couple of examples that come to mind of 'doing it right' (IMHO) are
(i) Brian Newbould's realisations of Schubert symphonies and
(ii) Lev Vinocour's similar efforts re Schumann piano concertos.
In both cases, they have extensively explained in the booklet notes what they have added/altered and why to produce a performing version. From memory I think this is true of most of these modern reconstructions/recompositions that I have seen.
However, I agree a statement on the cover such as 'completed/realised/arranged by/recomposed by xxx' would be the most honest approach so that, as Alan infers in his lead comment, it (now) does what it says on the tin'. Where these works stray a bit too far from honesty, I think, is to give CDs titles such as Rachmaninov's 5th PC, or Brahms 3rd, when the result (usually some sort of transcription) is little if anything to do with the composer other than the original work it is based on.
I think Alan's title is right - it is not the artistic integrity of the work 'per se' which is the main issue, rather its mis-representation on the label before purchase.
I can see this thread running and running!
Cheers
Richard
The Alkan /Klindworth concerto is a long way from just orchestrating three etudes. Klindworth found that the more he tried to orchestrate them, it took too much away from the piano part. He eventually just kept the themes and wrote a concerto around them. I believe that Alkan was more or less indifferent about it.
There is also another issue I have and it is this; Alan says who would we be without Elgar's third symphony which I agree is something very special but then who would want the travesty of the so called Elgar piano concerto which can only do his reputation some damage. Similarly, I am pleased to have the completions of Schubert's symphonies but have to say that in some ways this is an academic exercise as clearly Schubert knew what he was doing when he abandoned them. These are both 'sung' composers so no more of them.
Whether Schubert 'knew what he was doing' when he abandoned those pieces is a matter of debate. Certainly in the case of the 'Unfinished' there is good evidence that his hand was forced by a deadline he couldn't keep. And there are numerous cases in which the composer's hand was forced rather more forcibly, such as Bruckner. Personally, I'm grateful for various people's efforts to elaborate upon what the composer left. But of course, it has to be made clear to prospective listeners.
... and to be honest, I rather like the 'Elgar' PC... Call it a guilty pleasure.
I agree to a large extent with both Giles and Alan. It should be made clear whether the work in question is a newly discovered original work of the composer, more or less intact, or a piece that has had to be newly orchestrated (and whether that orchestration is based on a short score of the composer's or wholly the work of a new hand), or a realisation of a piece from fragments left behind (the details of how many or how extensive these fragments may have been can be left to the CD booklet). "On the tin", IMHO, there should be something like, e.g.: Granados (reconstructed Melani Mestri) - Piano Concerto; or, in another case, Stanford (orchestrated Geoffrey Bush) - Piano Concerto No. 3.
This, it seems to me, would not be too much to ask, and it would be helpful to the potential purchaser.
In the case of the Klindworth/Alkan concerto, it would be more accurate to describe it as: Klindworth: Piano Concerto based on etudes by C.V. Alkan. though Klindworth would have done better to leave Alkan's music alone. Alkan knew what he was about.
The Granados isn't really a reconstruction at all, but an invention. From Hyperion's website:
Like Albéniz, Enrique Granados (1867–1916) was a brilliant pianist (he studied with Charles de Bériot in Paris) and a composition pupil of Felipe Pedrell. Both are best remembered as composers of overtly Spanish piano cycles (Albéniz's Iberia and Granados's Goyescas), but both also wrote extensively in other forms, including opera, a form in which Pedrell was also active. The Centre de Documentació Musical de Catalunya in Barcelona has two tantalizing fragments of a piano concerto by Granados which Melani Mestre has taken as the point of departure for a finished work. The first of the Barcelona manuscripts is a two-piano sketch in Granados's hand, with a dedication 'à mon cher maître Camille Saint-Saëns', and the subtitle 'Patético'. Though this manuscript has no date, Melani Mestre has suggested that it was written in 1910, around the time Granados was at work on Goyescas.
The sketch opens with a long, brooding piano solo, and the tempo changes to Allegro grave non molto lento when the orchestra makes its first entry. Altogether there are some 250 bars of music in this sketch, which breaks off in the middle of a bar. A second autograph manuscript is much neater, but the opening solo, marked Lento grave e quasi recitativo, is considerably shorter (just eighteen bars—less than a quarter of the length of this solo in the sketch), before the initial fully scored orchestral entry. This manuscript has several blank pages between orchestral entries where Granados may have intended to add the solo part, and it ends with nine pages of full orchestral score before stopping abruptly.
Musicologists will never agree about the viability of completing a work that exists only in a fragmentary state, and for which there is no surviving continuity draft to indicate what Granados's intentions might have been for the entire movement. Putting those questions to one side, what Mestre's completion demonstrates is that the surviving sources provide ample material for a single movement of considerable interest. The music is unusually dark and sombre, centred on C minor (the key of Beethoven's 'Pathétique' Sonata, presumably no accident given the subtitle 'Patético' on the sketch), and Granados can be heard here at his most gravely expressive and harmonically resourceful. It is unclear whether he set out to write a three-movement concerto (there is some evidence that he did), or whether he thought that this substantial single movement could stand on its own. Mestre believes that Granados had a three-movement work in mind, and to create that (since there is only material for the first movement in the Barcelona manuscripts) he has taken two solo piano works, orchestrating and adapting them for piano and orchestra. The second movement is based on two pieces: Oriental, No 2 of the twelve Danzas españolas, and Capricho español. The finale is an arrangement of the Allegro di concierto.
(emphasis added)
The problem with this thread is that we have been talking about a wide range of compositions - from orchestrations and reconstructions from existing incomplete material on the one hand to virtual recompositions on the other. In the case of the former it seems to me that it is perfectly valid to feature the original composer in any advertising material, provided that the orchestrator/arranger's name is present in the small print, as it were. In the case of the latter, I would say it ought to be the other way round.
alan's comment brings to mind a phrase containing the words 'head' and 'nail'.
However, in fairness to the record industry, I've now checked Rachmaninov's 5th and Brahms '3rd' that I mentioned in my previous post and in both cases the CD cover clearly states the work is an arrangement/transcription of whatever, so at least that is 'honest'.
I've re-checked a few others I've got (e.g. Beethoven's 10th symphony) and again its origin is honestly stated on the CD cover, so no deception there either.
Are we talking about works that members feel are almost 'deliberately' misleading or just nuances of crediting their origin?
Cheers
Richard
QuoteThe Granados isn't really a reconstruction at all, but an invention
In that case it ought really to say so "on the tin" - i.e. the cover of the CD booklet. Wouldn't you agree?
Oh quite. As I suggested in a previous post.
This situation has been going on in the soundtrack industry for quite some time. As an example Copland wrote a Red Pony Suite for the concert stage as well as material for the film. Similar, but the trained ear can pick up the difference. The same can be said about Herrmann and The Devil and Daniel Webster. Rosza went so far as adapting his Violin Concerto for the film The Private Lives of Sherlock Holmes. Vaughn-Williams wrote his Sinfonia Antarctia first for the film Scott of the Antarctic and later created a concert version which made no mention of the film. It should have clearly stated that this material was adapted. It certainly did not say in the opening credits for Dracula that the music was Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake. A very interesting thread.
Tom :)
QuoteVaughn-Williams wrote his Sinfonia Antarctia first for the film Scott of the Antarctic and later created a concert version which made no mention of the film. It should have clearly stated that this material was adapted.
I don't agree at all. The Sinfonia Antarctica is not "a concert version" of Vaughan-Williams' (note spelling) music for the film "Scott of the Antarctic". VW uses the themes from the film to produce a genuinely symphonic work which is rightly included in the canon of his symphonies. Why should he say that he uses material from his film music here any more than stating he employs themes from his opera "The Pilgrim's Progress" in the 5th Symphony? I suppose a composer may do what he likes with his own work!
e.g. recordings of Mussorgsky's Pictures (Toradze's, I'm told) or Medtner piano works (one volume of Fellegi's, on MP) where substantial uncredited/mentioned editing is performed either by the pianist or by the author of the, well, edition they're using? I suppose that may qualify after a fashion...
Quote from: sdtom on Monday 11 May 2015, 19:42
This situation has been going on in the soundtrack industry for quite some time. As an example Copland wrote a Red Pony Suite for the concert stage as well as material for the film. Similar, but the trained ear can pick up the difference. The same can be said about Herrmann and The Devil and Daniel Webster. Rosza went so far as adapting his Violin Concerto for the film The Private Lives of Sherlock Holmes. Vaughn-Williams wrote his Sinfonia Antarctia first for the film Scott of the Antarctic and later created a concert version which made no mention of the film. It should have clearly stated that this material was adapted. It certainly did not say in the opening credits for Dracula that the music was Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake. A very interesting thread.
Tom :)
Copland's and Herrmann's examples are hardly relevant here. They are exactly 'what it says on the tin' in those cases.
We're getting off-topic here. This thread concerns arrangements (of whatever sort) of other people's music where the finished article wouldn't otherwise exist. This can involve everything from expert reconstructions or completions of existing material/sketches to the creation of works which were never envisaged in the first place, such as the Granados PC (or at least, the two thirds of it that come from quite different sources).
Composers can do what they like with their own music. That's a completely different issue. And we're not talking here about the use of certain music in other contexts, such as films. So, back to the original topic, please...
Thank you for bringing us back into line. This topic was wandering off its focus.
How serious we all are on this topic! Theater people do things like that routinely, play Hamlet in modern clothes, cut large sections of the plays etc. with no attribution (unless there is a copyright fee to be earned of course...).
Also, Fritz Kreisler (a candidate for this forum I believe) composed a concerto by Vivaldi, a Rondino by Beethoven, Preludium and Allegro by Pugnani etc.
Lighten up everybody!
There's an interesting example of a 'suite' by Debussy
http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-SACD-1782 (http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-SACD-1782)
In short, an orchestration of the rare intermezzo which was supposedly originally for cello and orchestra but only exists for cello and piano (it's also one of those cases mentioned in another thread about a piece being in a private collection for a long time). The rest of it is just orchestrations of other pieces.
Talking of getting back 'on topic', does anyone know of examples that are specifically in the realm of the romantic Unsung Composer?
QuoteLighten up everybody!
Fine, but in doing so let's keep to the topic...
I started this thread and the point I wished to make is that there is sometimes an implication that the music is almost entirely by the original composer and the completer has played a minor role, whereas they have done a great deal more than fifty percent. In many cases, Elgar Symphony, Schubert symphonies, Mahler 10 and Howell's first piano concerto, I am pleased that some one has 'realised what is possible' but I do object to fragments being used by others with the implication that the work is by the original composer.
To get back to the Granados, to imply that the second or third movements are what Granados might have composed is fanciful. I like the disk for what it is, one movement by Granados and flights of fancy by another.
At present I am trying to persuade a composer to complete some more piano concertos, which are a little more intact.
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 11 May 2015, 19:50
QuoteVaughn-Williams wrote his Sinfonia Antarctia first for the film Scott of the Antarctic and later created a concert version which made no mention of the film. It should have clearly stated that this material was adapted.
I don't agree at all. The Sinfonia Antarctica is not "a concert version" of Vaughan-Williams' (note spelling) music for the film "Scott of the Antarctic". VW uses the themes from the film to produce a genuinely symphonic work which is rightly included in the canon of his symphonies. Why should he say that he uses material from his film music here any more than stating he employs themes from his opera "The Pilgrim's Progress" in the 5th Symphony? I suppose a composer may do what he likes with his own work!
I used a poor choice of words and I've always had trouble with the 'a' in his name. I suspect that Vaughan-Williams knew he was going to create a symphony and did the film for money.
Getting back to the topic the recent recording on Sterling of Raff's Bernhard von Weimar music contains a long version of "Eine feste Burg"
Tom
Off topic, but I'll deal with it here. The Ein feste Burg Overture is not a "long version", Tom, but a rewriting of Raff's original Overture to Bernhard von Weimar, which amongst other things extended it by a few minutes, replacing the original's downbeat ending with a triumphal one. When the recording was made we thought that the BVW music (apart from the two posthumously published marches) was lost, and so substituted Ein feste Burg for the original Overture, but in the delay between recording and issue I tracked down not one, but two complete manuscripts! Heigh ho.
Thanks for sharing this information with us. All of this CD is an important find.
Tom :)
QuoteI used a poor choice of words and I've always had trouble with the 'a' in his name. I suspect that Vaughan-Williams knew he was going to create a symphony and did the film for money.
... and although trivial
both of you seem to want to hyphenate his names :) ...
Regarding the Elgar PC, the cover couldn't be clearer, I don't believe it does any damage to Elgar's reputation whatever and it's a guilty pleasure of mine too. I don't need profound stuff all day every day...
Thanks for the correction. There should, of course, be no hyphen in Vaughan Williams. Let's be accurate. I'm glad you like the Elgar PC. I don't dislike it - I just don't think it's very good. Not really out of Sir Edward's top drawer IMHO.
I absolutely agree that it's not great by any means and I'd also assert that the Elgar/Payne Symphony 3 is staggeringly good. Seems like others would agree. Even if the outcomes are variable, realisations / orchestrations / completions are sometimes wonderful. But yes, the covers should tell the full story.
Yes, the Symphony No. 3 is top notch.
QuoteTo get back to the Granados, to imply that the second or third movements are what Granados might have composed is fanciful. I like the disk for what it is, one movement by Granados and flights of fancy by another.
Can't remember for certain offhand, but is it not the case that the Elgar 3 sketches were almost non-existant for the Finale? I seem to remember Anthony Payne admitting that he's had to imagine Elgar's wishes far more here than in the other movements. So the situation is far from clear-cut even in this celebrated example...
While always seemingly marked as arrangements or orchestrations, Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an Exhibition" has pleased me in almost any configuration, because the piano version alone towers above so much other music. My favorite is the Emile Naoumoff version, I see one by Leonhard Lawrence on YouTube. I wasn't too impressed the movements that Mestre added to the Granodos' 1st mvt (apparently with the most indications of what the author wanted). I also like the Elgar piano concerto for the most part for no particular reason. I guess sometimes I balk a little at people turning piano quintets, etc. into concertos, usually seem to fall a bit thin on the ears. For example, Brahms' Piano Quintet in F minor is, like the original "Pictures" on piano, more than just fine the way it is. All just my unschooled opinion, and I guess if this sort of thing is amusing to composers, they can do all they want, but I definitely agree that truth in advertising helps me accept such more open-mindedly.
Somewhere I saw the hyphen and started using it. I also spell Lizst for some reason. Little things.
I recently received this recording http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/Feb/Pictures_GEN15340.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/Feb/Pictures_GEN15340.htm) which is a brass delight if you like your music this way.
Tom :)
Again Tom, simple arrangements are just....not really what is being talked about.
Though Neomoff's version Pictures would count -- he essentially recasts it into a piano concerto and adds some of music as well as some other weirdness (though it's pretty 'modern' sounding in places).
Perhaps an interesting bit of video in the light of this discussion, with Helge Evju and musicians discussing the recent recording of Evju's concerto based on Grieg's fragments for his second concerto.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HoB7xZ9DEo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HoB7xZ9DEo)