Many composers have been unashamed to be identified as Wagnerian, but I got to thinking about composers that "sound like" that other Master, for example Wetz and Cliffe. Would folks think of Schmidt-Kowalski as "Brucknerian" (not so much for me)?
Stenhammar's Symphony 1 is strikingly Brucknerian.
Haven't heard it, but judging from a Fanfare review, August Halm's symphony in A (on Sterling) qualifies easily. (The 2005 Musicweb review is, whatever the Brucknerian implications, much less positive ;) ) (Rob Barnett notes some Bruckner influence in Paul Büttner's symphony no. 4 also on Sterling- which I also have not yet heard; I do hope to.)
I guess that depends on what you mean by "Brucknerian". In terms of taking a small musical germ and transforming it over the long stretch Franz Schmidt, Ernest Bloch, even Korngold might fit. Possibly even Valentin Silvestrov. I can't think of any composer who actually sounds like Bruckner; his orchestation is utterly unique.
I think you'll find that Martin Scherber's Third Symphony of the early 1950s will qualify on all counts, Martin.
I agree about Stenhammar 1. Otherwise, Wetz is probably the best fit. Halm doesn't sound like Bruckner at all. Oh yes, and Scherber 3: very Brucknerian, but without the glorious sense of 'arrival' in climaxes.
If long windedness is the main criterion I think some of Furtwangler's symphonic music might fill the bill.
Quote from: John H White on Friday 09 July 2010, 16:46
If long windedness is the main criterion I think some of Furtwangler's symphonic music might fill the bill.
One review of Furtwängler's 2nd did note a mixture of influences including Brahms, Bruckner and Dvorak. I do think I hear all 3 perhaps. (Not a criticism- I have been pulled back repeatedly to it in the excellent Teldec recording...)
Eric
Furtwängler 2 also contains a goodly amount of Tchaikovsky!
Although not a Bruckner model composer per. se. Rautavaara's 3rd Symphony contains a great many Bruckner-like themes, phrasing, and textures including the use of 4 Wagner tubas.
I'd forgotten Furtwangler -- yes, very Brucknerian without the genius. I've never heard of Scherber! So I see another disk to be ordering soon. Thanks for the tip.
I don't get a "Brucknerian" feel from Schmidt-Kowalski. The latter is no doubt steeped in romanticism (I love the CDs I have from him to date), but his symphonies aren't as expansive as Bruckner (although most aren't -- and I do like Bruckner). I'm not much of a musicologist, so you have to bear with me a bit.
Franck, Glass, Stenhammar, Furtwängler, Moroi, Masia.
Both Francks? Masia?
Quote from: swanekj on Tuesday 13 July 2010, 20:35
Both Francks? Masia?
... there's at least four or five Francks, composerwise (from the Renaissance to the Romantic era). Two of them father and son. Which two do you have in mind?
.
But who is Masia?
I have no idea. Maybe Jesus Masia? http://www.abruckner.com/news/newsarchive/jesusmasiasnewbruc/ (http://www.abruckner.com/news/newsarchive/jesusmasiasnewbruc/)
Also, Josef Pembaur the Elder, although he is far more jolly, perhaps closer to Cowen, Goldmark, and Humperdinck.
I recall thinking that one of the Robert Herman Symphonys sounded quite Brucknerian but I don't recall which one and I'm not a home to check it out. Maybe #1.
Quote from: jerfilm on Tuesday 14 September 2010, 15:56
I recall thinking that one of the Robert Herman Symphonys sounded quite Brucknerian but I don't recall which one and I'm not a home to check it out. Maybe #1.
Yes, I thought no. 2 in B minor had quite a few Brucknerian chorales in its first movement. A spooky effect (and movement), in my opinion.
I'm not so sure about Stenhammar 1; yes, Brucknerian in form, but not at all in structure (closer to Tchaikovsky, even).
What about Paul Büttner? A strange mix of Wagner and Bruckner. Not unattractive, though.
Quote from: swanekj on Thursday 08 July 2010, 01:53Would folks think of Schmidt-Kowalski as "Brucknerian"?
Yes indeed. The sound world is definitely Brucknerian, although the results are somewhat different. Another name to consider in this context is Magnard, although it is many years since I heard his four symphonies. It rather depends, of course, on what is meant by Brucknerian. If length is important, then Pettersson's 8th Symphony is a candidate. The notes for the CPO recording assert that it should be compared to Bruckner and Schubert. However, as a general rule, Pettersson is more akin to late Mahler (but a distant descendant, not a twin brother).
Some of the mid-century 20th century German composers (Johann Nepomuk David comes to mind but certainly many others?) influenced in part by Hindemith might also qualify - heavy use of chorale and fugue in many works including symphonies, much religious liturgical music - out of that same tradition of which Bruckner was in some general sense a member.
Also Richard Wetz.
Quote from: jerfilm on Thursday 02 December 2010, 23:01
Also Richard Wetz.
Agreed. (First ran across his name, I think, in some contemporary - 1920s?- issue of the NZM- and was surprised, first, to see that his third symphony had once been recorded on LP (the version that's now on a Sterling CD); was surprised, too, to see cpo announce fairly soon after a recording of his first symphony; was glad to purchase it of course, and the second symphony soon after. Besides the symphonies have only heard the violin concerto so far unfortunately, though one of the string quartets is at IMSLP and I think the other one is at NYPL.)
Though... the early reviews of recordings of his first symphony "played up" the Brucknerian angle so strong ... (reviewer in Fanfare magazine when the first cpo CD came out, going for the hyperbolic exaggeration about Bader's Wetz 1: that you wouldn't know this wasn't a Bruckner symphony unless you knew all 9 (well, 11) of his symphonies backwards and forwards. or something like that. ... erm... no? (assuming) it's a Bruckner symphony, so- let's see- last movement doesn't start with any sort of tremolo, so it's pretty definitely Bruckner 1 - except it isn't - end of story... also, soundworld and counterpoint aren't quite as Brucknerian as -that- description would imply. That said, it's still pretty Brucknerian, I have to agree, just not as copy-of-Bruckner-to-the-plate-numbers as the bad taste of that review etc. ...) erm. Which may have encouraged some people to get the recording, discouraged others, and had no effect on those most others who never read that review, of course.
There is also his Requiem in b, opuw 50, Hyperion for baritone, chorus & orch and Summer Nights Dream for womens chorus and orch. available on CD.
Regarding Wetz and IMSLP, I have posted several requests on IMSLP's suggestion board for specific works -- the first Wetz quartet being one. In each case I have included copyright information and one or more holding institutions with call number. It may be pure coincidence, but every request I have thus made has ended up on IMSLP within two or three months. So I encourage others who enjoy access to scores to do the same.
Quote from: chill319 on Sunday 05 December 2010, 22:41
Regarding Wetz and IMSLP, I have posted several requests on IMSLP's suggestion board for specific works -- the first Wetz quartet being one. In each case I have included copyright information and one or more holding institutions with call number. It may be pure coincidence, but every request I have thus made has ended up on IMSLP within two or three months. So I encourage others who enjoy access to scores to do the same.
Oh, so you're the guilty party... er... I mean... I agree! I completely agree. (When the holding institution is one with an active scanning program like U Rochester for example, even better still, but even so (yes, ok, most people here know this), people at a university can generally of course borrow a non-locked-press score, take it home, and carefully use a home scanner... etc. Emphasis on carefully, he says, going ouch and being glad that the one scan I've done wasn't of a -library- copy...)
Eric
Franz Schmidt - 2nd Symphony ;)
I think that it is somewhat hard to find truely Brucknerian composers. There is maybee nobody, who sounds Brucknerian as Rietz sounds Mendelssohnian, or as Herzogenberg sounds Brahmsian.
Bruckner was in many ways a solitary figure, who couldn't be added clearly to one of the musical directions of his time. A Wagnerian, who wrote (characteristic but) not programmatic symphonies in classical structure. But there are, as I think, elements of his style, that make him equaly differing from Brahms as he does from Wagner. The latter two composers, as different there views were in generaly, shared an aesthetic of organical developments in music. Bruckner had another concept of building great musical architectures, which seems to be more based on mechanical progressions, as it is shown by his strict use of four bar phrases. Wagner and Brahms on the contrary were more interested in the cultivation of odd phrases, which Schönberg called ,,musical prose". The views of Wagner and Brahms dominated the most musicians of the late 19th century, so Bruckner, I think, was mostly misunderstood by his contemporaries.
And the few composers who wanted to follow Bruckner seem to me to be led by a kind of ,,productive misunderstanding". You must consider in Bruckner's case, that some of his works were played in arrangements by his pupils even 40 years after his death. The composers of the early 20th century only knew Bruckner's symphonies in this versions. Imagine: Richard Wetz died in the same the year, when Bruckner's 5th symphony was played for the first time in its original version!
The Brucknerian influences on other composers seem largely superficial to me. I have named Wetz, and would add Rott, Sibelius (surely Bruckner's most productive heir), Robert Hermann (I don't know if he knew Bruckner's music, but he uses square phrases in a striking similar way), Hausegger, Franz Schmidt, Braunfels, Furtwängler, Wilhelm Petersen. Everybody a genius in his own way. They may have seen Bruckner as their idol, but nobody of them sounds truely Brucknerian to my ears, even if it is audible, that they recieved some inspiration from his works.
Martin Scherber (1907-74). I know his 3rd Symphony. Sounds like an apotheosis of Bruckner. One continuous movement lasting almost an hour. Quite weird. :D
Probably Gerhard Frommel (1906-84), but I know only his 1st Symphony from 1937/39. His slightly earlier Concert for clarinet piano and strings is more neoclassical though.
In case of Frommel, his First Symphony (which is a great piece in my view) shows some Bruckner influences but not only, while other pieces by him are far away from Bruckner. I know quite a number of his works, for example there is a neoclassicist Suite for Orchestra which was only composed a few years before the First Symphony but which is actually near Stravinsky. These traces can also be found in the scherzo of the First Symphony but they are much less obvious there, of course. Frommel's Second Symphony is also a very different piece, lighter and with dance music allusions. In later years, Frommel was even interested in Gamelan music! However, there is also an early and rather broad "Herbstfeier" cantata which is more in the vein of the First Symphony (and also a great piece with its ritual tableau of autumn / harvest scenes of baroque Franconia). Anyway, altogether Frommel doesn't seem to be a Brucknerian composer in my view, there are too many distinct influences in his output and also a clear own voice. He would be much worth a rediscovery. Naxos will release his first three piano sonatas in a while.
Regards,
Holger
I had the first movement of the 1st Frommel in mind. Where did you find all the other works? Have they been broadcast? Yes, I know the suite, forgot about it. ;)
In particular, I like the first movement of Frommel's First very much, its main theme is so powerful and remindable! Besides that, the music is very well composed in my view.
I got most of the Frommel pieces I have from other collectors (I use to exchange a lot of rare stuff, I mean LPs and broadcast recordings) and also three of them from Frommel's son.
Regards,
Holger
Whilst Hans Rott wasn't really influenced by Bruckner's structure, he was by his music. For instance, the key theme of Rott's Symphony seems to have its origins in the B5 finale.
and the opening of Wellesz 2 by the finale of Bruckner 4 as has been elsewhere noted :) (actually, the Moderate-Scherzo-Slow structure of many of Wellesz' symphonies seems - I say seems - inspired by the accidental structure of how Bruckner's 9th turned out, leaving aside the fascinating and completable sketches of the finale of which Wellesz may not have been aware anyway.)
Yes, that's interesting! Bruckner's 9th seems to be a non intended predecessor of this Moderato-Scherzo-Slow-structure, some composers developed in the 20th century. E.g. Enescu's 3rd, Rubbra's 1st and 8th, Höller's 1st, and even Simpson's 9th.
Hrm. Finale of Rubbra 1 (a symphony I think very highly of, especially that movement) only partly fits the mold, I tend to think (that concluding fugal section being ... well, maybe that's asking too much similarity, and the slow movement of Bruckner 9 does get active though in its center rather than towards its conclusion. Höller as in York Höller? I've seen a recording of a cello concerto at the library, but not head tail nor antenna of a symphony as yet.)
It was Karl Höller's 1st I thought of. And you are right about Rubbra's Finale. The difference to Bruckner is, that Rubbra planed the Lento of his 1st as a last movement, Bruckner didn't that with his Adagio. The more I listen to Bruckner's 9th, I find the thesis of the "finished unfinished" symphony less convincing. For my ears this adagio is more or less a great prelude to the finale. Rubbra and Enescu make sure that their slow movements are the Finali of their works, when they gave them indications of finality, Enescu with the choir, Rubbra with the sublime crescendo-accelerando-fugue. And even Höller, whose 1st isn't realy a "Finalsymphonie" like Rubbra's or Enescu's, goes in that direction. His Adagio-coda is much longer than Bruckner's and the climax is in the center of the movement.
Moving away from symphonies, there are two composers wrote tributes to Bruckner.
Gottfried von Einem's "Bruckner Dialog", Op. 39, uses material from the 4th movement of Symphony No. 9, and Georg Trexler wrote three organ works based on Bruckner's themes: "Introduktion und Passacaglia über ein Thema der VIII. Symphonie von Anton Bruckner", "Meditationen über Themen des ,,Te Deum" von Anton Bruckner", and "Toccata über ein Thema aus dem Gloria der Messe in e-Moll von Anton Bruckner".
I have not yet heard any of these.
The most Brucknerian music I know not by Bruckner (though not quite so monumental) is the scherzo from Luis de Freitas Branco's Second Symphony. There are some strikingly Brucknerian passages in Marcel Tyberg's recently resurrected Third Symphony and although his music sounds nothing like Bruckner I think Alberic Magnard's symphonies suggest a French analog to the Bruckner aesthetic in their austere (I'd never call Franck's music austere), exalted beauty and rustic quality in the scherzos.
I definitely agree with the idea of Magnard as being at least slightly influenced by Bruckner. The first time I heard Magnard's Third Symphony (on the radio), I had tuned in sometime during the first movement and didn't know what I was listening to. By the end, especially the last couple of minutes, I was convinced that it had been by a French disciple of Bruckner. The Magnard Third is, I think, one of the very small handful of undiscovered masterpieces.
The Fourth is an even greater work, an amalgam (though utterly original) of French Bruckner and French Scriabin. He's not so much undiscovered as unacknowledged. Critical establishments, both journalistic and academic, are not in the business of revaluation, just reinterpretations (reiterations with a twist) of the master narrative of twentieth-century music.
I hear more Mahler in Magnard than Bruckner...
I'm always willing to hear Mahler in anything as there can never be enough Mahler, but I miss the pictorial, programmatic/narrative, proto-expressionist elements of Mahler in Magnard. Like Bruckner (and Franck from whom he derives in large measure), I think of Magnard as having a unified, compact if you will, vision, nearly mystical though not religious. If I say that Mahler seems like an artist in search of an all-encompassing vision I don't mean it as any sort of denigration a la Copland ("Beethoven is a great composer. Mahler is like a great actor playing a great composer," or somesuch), it's an aspect both of his very real greatness and his universality.
I agree with your thoughtful analysis, X. Trapnel.
So do I! Magnard is not a bundle of influences but a unique figure with an own vision. One may hear influences of Bruckner or Mahler but they don't irritate as in so many minor masters.
Was thinking again about the differences between "Brucknerian" and "Mahlerian" when listening to Abbado's DG recording of Mahler's 7th. An extreme case (1st movement particularly) and his performance somewhat highlights these aspects - but this is the sort of thing - the juxtapositions of sudden high register and sudden low, the woodwind shrieks, the dissonance, the...- that get Shostakovich after his symphony 3 and Weinberg pegged as Mahlerian more than Brucknerian, and rightly so, I think (and they both, before they met, knew their Mahler, or so I gather.)
Qualities and formal features Bruckner introduced that have been pointed out to me include (these were described not as defects but as interesting innovations, and I incline to agree- and they were influential) a tendency toward blocks of sound separated by more or less silent pauses (for example). (Definitely hear something of this in Reger's works of a certain period too, I think...)
Not to say that it's even easy or possible to be too precise here though I do want to try to make the - well, adjectives(!?!?!?) - less interchangeable - it seems odd to think of them as though they were so.
McEwen's Symphony definitely shows the influence of Bruckner....but also of Debussy. It's an unlikely synthesis but a successful one.
some passages of Joseph Marx's Herbst Symphonie are, IMHO, brucknerian. I think especially to contrapuntal complexity in slow parts..
further on Mahlerian though (though that did have its own thread- sorry!) Allan Pettersson (Swedish, 1911-1980) is sometimes put here for better or worse reasons; a very good Segerstam-conducted broadcast performance of his 4th symphony (1958-59) (pace Mark Shanks (http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/pettersson/sym04.php)) makes it (and him) seem a candidate for this category (and the work seem clearer than I seem to recall it did in the cpo recording, to be fair. Don't know Comissiona's recording, though I think the local university library does have it. Wish someone would release the recording I have in a similar set commemorating the Norrköping Symphony (actually, I think there has been such a set, and it didn't include it... unfortunate... maybe some other time :) It really is an excellent performance- and does highlight the Mahlerian aspects of the work - for instance, again, those high wind shrieks :), and also those quiet chorales - without slighting or hiding the discontinuities (well, not in principle "un"Mahlerian), percussion outbursts (Nielsen x n? ... just joking.) (In seriousness, a lot more going on in this piece than sums of any influences, though I feel I could make a case for its inclusion in some slightly extended way in a "Romantic" forum- both in harmonic progression and especially in affect (word chosen advisedly. then again, in effect too?). Even the odd ending - not the same reason as some similar endings in late Liszt maybe (maybe not?...) )
Try the slow movement of Stjepan Sulek's 7th Symphony. If that's not Brucknerian, I don't know what is! I'm not kidding!
Agree about Hans Rott. Try the symphonies of Brun.
If no one's said it, I'd say Paul Von Klenau in his symphonies.. Just listening to the 1st mvnt of the 7th symphony and I hear touches of Bruckner.
Richard Wetz
I disagree on this general judgement of the Symphonies of Fritz Brun! This is ridiculous. Brun has a particular build-up section in the first movement of his 4th Symphony where he deals with Bruckner, and he even explains (in a letter, see the liner notes of my CD), how just with this work he reaches to get rid of Bruckner - and how (his previous 3 Symphonies, actually, were all other than Brucknerian, but he means that in a general "attitude-like" way).
Some of his other Symphonies have definitely more Brahmsian passages, but also intentionally used, sometimes with a twinkle in his eye. I consider that Brun's most Brucknerian passage occurs in the Finale of his 7th Symphony, but there too, it's not a plagiarism; I consider it a good-humoured "homage" - and, anyway, it's theme is differently developed.
Since an ignorant German writer once stated in Wikipedia that Brun's work is in the style of Bruckner (this before all Symphonies were available on CD), such nonsense is still being ruminated over and over again today.
I also disagree on an earlier statement in this thread, that Furtwängler's Second Symphony is in the style of Bruckner. Usually, this is being said just because the Symphony is of a Brucknerian lenght. Again: listen carefully to the music, and, if you are always in need to judge composers depending on influences from others, explain exactly where and why this is occurring - and also why this eventually makes you think that the composer is of minor value. Today, nobody would dare to say: "Beethoven?? Pah, he just comes from Haydn!". But less-known composers are mostly judged this way, Musicologists and music lovers can, apparently, not find better arguments...
Funny: Just yesterday, by listening to Vaughan Williams's D Major Quintet, I heard Smetana's "Bartered Bride" Overture in a fugato section...
I completely agree with Adriano. I can really only think of Wetz and Scherber. Adriano, what would you say?
Scherber in any case! But it was his serious intention to do so, not a cheap - or devote - imitation; one could even consider it a modern "re-consideration". Of course, his First Symphony is less "experienced" than the two following. The latter can be still considered as very original works.
Wetz: I don't know him well enough (yet)...
Wetz Symphonies:
No.1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf0QxjRFsck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf0QxjRFsck)
No.2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhVbZt41sJg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhVbZt41sJg)
No.3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM5RkaviDD4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM5RkaviDD4)
My general feeling is that this thread has simply proved that there are no Brucknerian composers, except for Scherber, whose intention to imitate his great predecessor was deliberate (as Adriano has said) - and maybe Wetz.
or that we need to define the question better? also, pace hadrianus, the claim of Brucknerian character is no less nor more an insult in and of itself than the claim of originality, especially on this forum of recent years.
Maybe Johanna Senfter? Have only ever heard her 4th symphony, would very much like to hear more (anybody know of other pieces available?). Agree with Adriano that it seems unnecessary to listen to music only to find "influences". Of course, listeners with trained ears will hear echoes but then also that training just probably helps them put it all into perspective, hopefully to find something to appreciate about the "influenced" composer's highly subjective sound expressions. I said in some forum once, maybe this one, that all music must have descended from birdsong, so rather than decry a musical passage that is 'derivative' of the warble of a two-toed yellow faced whickerpoof, just listen to it or don't!
Senfter- I've heard a few other works of hers (some piano works) and would add her teacher Reger as an influence, and also look forward to hearing more.
(Some Wellesz sounds especially Brucknerian - the opening of his 2nd symphony somewhat paraphrases-sort-of the (opening of the) finale of Bruckner's 4th symphony, for example; similar ostinati for similar purposes, same E-flat minor key...)
You are right, eschiss 1 (in both your last postings) :-)
Senfter's 4th sounds rather like a continuation of Bruckner's stylistic trajectory.
Edit 10th March 2024: In light of the broadcast of Senfter' s 4th Symphony I would no longer connect her with Bruckner; rather, the influence of her teacher Reger's constantly evolving chromaticism seems to me all-pervasive.
Johanna Senfter. Listen to her 4th Symphony.
Cuclin in some of his symphonies?... or maybe not. Hrm. Will have to think on that one. Mr. Schmidt-Kowalski?
(The usual difference between "Brucknerian" and "Mahlerian" -- _a_ usual difference - has to do with the sorts of things that are said to have influenced Shostakovich & cie - Mahlerian irony/disjunctness/etc. Whose presence even in Mahler, and absence from Bruckner, are to be proven and not merely asserted, of course; seems clearest to me in GM's 7th...)
A few years ago I was in an orchestra which put on the Symphony by Paul Dukas. Written in 1896, part of the slow movement reminded me of Bruckner. I don't know how much of Bruckner's music would have been known in France at that time.
Well, Dubois, one of his teachers, was very much no fan of Wagner and probably might not have been of Bruckner. (OTOH Debussy, who Dukas was friends with, was influenced early on by Franck, who heard, not Bruckner's symphonies, but his organ improvisations, in person.)
Some apparently discernible similarities may well be attributable to, for example, Wagner and turn out to be parallel developments across different countries and traditions. True 'Brucknerians' surely came after him, e.g. Wetz or Scherber. I don't think are very many - unlike, say, the imitators of Brahms.
Quote from: jimsemadeni on Saturday 11 August 2018, 16:15Maybe Johanna Senfter? Have only ever heard her 4th symphony, would very much like to hear more (anybody know of other pieces available?). Agree with Adriano that it seems unnecessary to listen to music only to find "influences". Of course, listeners with trained ears will hear echoes but then also that training just probably helps them put it all into perspective, hopefully to find something to appreciate about the "influenced" composer's highly subjective sound expressions. I said in some forum once, maybe this one, that all music must have descended from birdsong, so rather than decry a musical passage that is 'derivative' of the warble of a two-toed yellow faced whickerpoof, just listen to it or don't!
Working on her symphonies now and they will eventually be available (a 3-year project). Bruckner is often evoked because of her 4th but that does her disservice. Generally, she is very careful to observe the sonata form, less melodic, more abstract and less emotional. Funnily enough, the review of her first symphony (titled "1914") performed in 1918 mentioned that "the woman is just like Brahms, enough said". Also agree that we can always find influences but it may well be that is more a question of the style of the era. For instance, I conducted Amanda Maier-Röntgen's violin concerto a few years ago and the musicians talked among themselves how "it clearly had influences of Sibelius with also they key the same in D minor" until our flute player mentioned that it had been composed 30 years before Sibelius... Back to Senfter. I am prophesying that her symphonies will become the new "cycle of 9" within a decade.
An interesting prospect. I've started a new thread on Senfter's symphonies: perhaps more details could be posted there?
Thanks very much for this thread. I have been listening to Bruckner for many years and I enjoy his music now better than ever so I guess I'm a lifer. Bruckner has taught me patience. Yes I looked for similar composers rather fitfully but never found any. However I have listened to the suggestions in this thread and do agree with those who said Richard Wetz and Martin Scherber. With Wetz there is an actual kinship I think. With Scherber it is more a modernistic take on Bruckner; harder and sterner than anything in actual Bruckner. None of the others seem Brucknerian, merely German and Romantic. So thank you for introducing me to both.
One issue is that Bruckner's orchestration I think is derived from his extensive experience as an organist. So you have these sudden starts and stops which are easy enough on the organ because they are under the control of two hands and feet. In US orchestras which are not that familiar with Bruckner, I have seen musicians reduced to jelly trying to manage these.
As for the Symphony 9 there were some interesting comments on its unintended 3 movement structure . I think the problem Bruckner had in completing it was due to it being a tragic symphony in form. I guess he didn't realize that until he came to the Finale, but there is no way to follow the third movement directly with a positive Finale IMO. The dissonant chord close to the end of the slow movement is so forceful and harsh that it either mandates a tragic Finale or at least adding an intervening fifth movement to recover from it and then move to a more positive Finale.
Agreed. I think we are only really left with Wetz and Scherber.
That unintended 3 movement form - Moderate Scherzo Slow- led to successors itself (think Egon Wellesz' first and 6th-9th.)
Yes that (abbreviated) format enables the composer to bury the (troublesome) Finale in a safe place out of earshot.
The difference, of course, is between an unfinished 'torso' and a work purposely created in that format.
Actually, in the Wellesz and similar works the 3rd movement obviously -is- the finale...
,,,which isn't the case with Bruckner 9.
I got the Wetz LP of Sym 3 with the Berlin Sym as well as the Col Legno CD of the Scherber Sym 3 and can recommend both recordings, both for themselves and as likely to interest Bruckner fans. I have also started listening to the CPO CD box of Wetz complete symphonies and violin concerto. I have to thank the Rheinland Pfalz orchestra for most of the available Wetz recordings plus the Scherber. I find Scherber quite interesting too. Many thanks to this site for mentioning these two composers.
Scherber's First Symphony is definitely a Bruckner homage :-)
Adriano is too modest to mention his recording of Scherber's 1st Symphony:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8399983--martin-scherber-erste-symphonie-goethelieder-kinderlieder
Quote from: adriano on Wednesday 27 March 2024, 11:29Scherber's First Symphony is definitely a Bruckner homage :-)
Adriano,
It's on order but I haven't received it yet! BTW I have others that you did for Marco Polo. I think the first one I got was the Honegger Film music.
A number of young composers have dedicated their First Symphony to their musical hero, and some have achieved a fair measure of success in so doing. Nils Gade's First followed on from his Echoes of Ossian overture in telling a story of innocence and derring-do,as a tribute to Mendelssohn. Charles Ives composed a hauntingly beautiful homage to Dvorak on the occasion of the latter's return from America in the slow movement of his First.
Scherber falls into this category of success. Taking,I believe, Bruckner's Ninth as a starting-point, he has distilled his admiration into 30 minutes of loving respect. Maestro adriano has brought Scherber's First to life with palladian limpidity and we are greatly in his debt. This is a must-buy for me!
I finally got the Scherber CD with the Sym 1 conducted by Adriano plus a collection of Scherber's songs for tenor. First of all I must commend the sonics of this CD. They are wonderfully natural with no apparent digititus. Secondly, Scherber is a much more substantial composer than I ever suspected. Third, the Symphony although closer to Bruckner than the more radical Sym 3 is still a fine work and conducted wonderfully by Adriano. Then there are several collection of songs for tenor added to the CD. I must admit that Lieder for voice and piano is not a format that I am overly fond of because of the constraints that the piano puts on the voice. However these songs by Scherber are marvelous with very flexible piano accompaniment.
I did not think Bruckner's symphonic style to be particularly good as a model for others but on the evidence of Scherber and Wetz I was wrong. These two composers made adroit use of the general music style of Bruckner without copying him and the results are interesting and satisfying.