Unsung Composers

Moór will be the 2 symphony And PC in c minor. The symphony is in few words wonderful. Moor Society gave us one recording from one performance recently by hurgarian broadcasting

Fantastic news! Thank you!
Further details of the two works involved:
Symphony No.2 in C major 'In Memoriam Ludwig Kossuth', no opus no. (1895) - pub. Simrock 
Piano Concerto No.2 in C minor, Op.46A (1888) - pub. Rozsavölgyi

Brilliant news, thank you very much - greatly looking forward to this!

Boosey&Hawkes has the rights about de 2 symphony "Kossuth", but Doro of Moór Gesellschaft talked with them for our performance. Surely after this recording some much orchestras will want performance Moór. It's Unbelieve the forgotten about his music!

What exciting news. Truly, we are living through a golden age of unsung recordings.

I am absolutely thrilled. I've been longing to get Moor's music performed and recorded. This is a tremendous start - I hope it will lead to more interest in his work - and more recordings, of course. I know both these pieces through the scores and I think they are really lovely.

I would like to join in the chorus of excitement re this news - some of the most exciting news I have heard on this forum. I hope it is the start of a succession of such events!

The Moór 2nd symphony WoO 153 (not to be confused with his symphony in C Op.67, though that too is OOCopt) was published in 1895 and is out of copyright everywhere (he died in 1931); a score can be freely downloaded from Sibley iirc and certainly from IMSLP (and parts extracted therefrom). In what sense Boosey owns the rights besides their wishful thinking, I'm not wholly sure... but erm thanks to them.

As to the rest, seconded.  I've skimmed that score (and placed an incipit or two on the IMSLP page (http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_in_C_major,_WoO_153_(Mo%C3%B3r,_Emanuel))) and I look forward to hearing it.

Emanuel Moor was never the greatest cataloguer and organiser of his works and manuscripts, having discovered this after many hours Central Westminster Music Library, where there is a rather poorly managed archive. There is also an archive in Lausanne. I can see a little confusion has emerged, cleared up by Eschiss, over the actual Symphony No 2 - Moor did not actually put a number on a Symphony until No 6. His actual Opus Nos go up to Op 151 (his unpublished Requiem of 1916- how I would love to hear that!). His earliest works without Opus Numbers are three symphonies (Nos 1,2 & 4 in my chronogical list below) so they should be WoO 1, 2 & 3, but rather confusingly they have been numbered WoO 152, 153 & 154, to follow on from his actual Opus Nos. One is led to believe in this system that there are WoOs 1-151......This is the picture as I see it at present. Moor wrote 8 symphonies, of which three are unpublished.

The chronology and hence the numbering is as follows
1893   Symphony No 1 in E minor,  unpublished (WoO 152)
1895   Symphony No 2 in C, published by Simrock, dedicated to Kossuth (WoO 153)
1895   Symphony No 3 in D minor Op 44B, published by Rozsavolgyi
1898   Symphony No 4 in B flat, published by Schmid (WoO 154)
1901   Symphony No 5 in A minor  Op 53B, unpublished
1906   Symphony No 6 in E minor, published by Siege, dedicated to Casals
1906   Symphony No 7 in C, published by Siegel, dedicated to Mengelberg & the Concertgebouw
1910   Symphony No 8 in A minor, unpublished

The numbering of the first five symphonies is an assumption on my part, but in my opinion the logical one. The challenge of doing a complete cycle are immense. I did quite a bit of work on the unpublished 3rd Piano Sonata, but it was a very disorganised MS and was in fact incomplete, needing a fair amount of reconstruction. It was also probably written for, though this is not explicit, the double keyboard piano. I suspect that the unpublished symphonies are of the same ilk - in other words they were incomplete
works that were not ready for publication. Until these MSS are found and analysed we won't know.

In his biography of Moor, Max Pirani cites the 2 String Quartets (Op 59 & 87) and the Pieces Lyriques for String Quartet Op 139, as being some of his finest work - what a wonderful CD that would make!

BTW sym7 is op.67; sym 6 is op65 and is @IMSLP (I haven't seen Op67 at all!)
The Stiftung site worklist - archived, I hope @ archive.org if it no longer exists? I need to check - contains some useful information along the lines of the above.

I'm fairly sure that some of his manuscript ensemble works received at least one performance, so not all were incomplete, I guess. Op.87 hopefully is among the complete ones, considering.

I think your numbering and chronology of the symphonies is correct, Masterraro. I too have spent some time in the Moor archive at the Westminster Library, It is a great pity they don't have the resources and manpower to catalogue it properly. There's a lot of MS material there. On the work list at the Moor Stiftung site they used to list the works of which they possessed copies by marking the entry with an asterisk, but I don't see that information there anymore. This is a great pity. I know for a fact there are some works at Westminster which the Stiftung don't have - and there are some pieces in neither collection, so they are either lost or elsewhere (the latter, one hopes).

Incidentally, I have a feeling that the MS of Symphony No. 8 may be at Westminster. I might be wrong! Must have a look next time I'm in London. Incidentally, Fleisher has score and parts for a Symphony in C which they have mistakenly catalogued as Op. 67, but as it is listed as having been published by Simrock (1895) it can't be "Symphony No. 7, Op. 67" but must be the WoO "Kossuth" symphony. Fleisher also has score and parts of Symphony No. 3, which is listed as Op. 45 and pub. Roszavolgyi, but with a publication date of 1890.

I would be interested to know of any libraries which hold copies of the published symphonies Nos. 4 & 7.

It is good to know that I am not the only one who spent time in the dusty, disorganised archive at Westminster Central! I even offered my services to try and sort it out, but they seemed uninterested. There was a list of works they purported to have there, but it was very inaccurate. I do not remember seeing the 8th Symphony there but I might be wrong, but I need to check on the notes I made (when I can find where I put them). There is another archive of his materials in Lausanne, which I never visited, but talked at length with them on the phone. They may well have Nos 4 & 7. 

Sorry I left out the Op Nos for 6 & 7. Re Op 45 which Fleisher  and the Stiftung lis as Symphony No 3 - Pirani has it listed as a Song 'Desire',  but I see this song in the Stiftung is Op 45a - quite possibly taken from the symphony?  I must admit that 44B and also 53B (53a in the Stiftung) are unconvincing Op Nos as the B implies that they are derivative of the original no., which clearly is not the case with the symphonies.

I have redone the list in the light your feedback, and following the Stiftung over Pirani

The chronology and hence the numbering is as follows
1893   Symphony No 1 in E minor,  unpublished (WoO 152)
1895   Symphony No 2 in C, published by Simrock, dedicated to Kossuth (WoO 153)
1895   Symphony No 3 in D minor Op 45, published by Rozsavolgyi, dedicated to Anita Moor
1898   Symphony No 4 in B flat, published by Schmid (WoO 154)
1901   Symphony No 5 in A minor  Op 53a, unpublished
1906   Symphony No 6 in E minor,  Op 65, published by Siegel, dedicated to Volkmar Andreae
1906   Symphony No 7 in C, Op 67, published by Siegel, dedicated to Mengelberg & the Concertgebouw
1910   Symphony No 8 in A minor, Op 92, unpublished, dedicated to Anita Moor

Yes, I met with a similar lack of interest when I was there. It is sad. Can you give me the contact details of the Lausanne archive, please? It would be useful to know exactly what they have.

Well, well. Interesting what a little online research throws up. The Westminster Music Library list in their catalogue of printed music (NOT the Moor archive which, as we know, has not been properly catalogued) complete sets of orchestral parts for:

Triple Concerto for piano, violin & cello and orchestra, Op. 70
Concerto for piano & orchestra No. 1 in D major (Simrock, 1894)
Concerto for 2 cellos and orchestra, op. 69
Concerto for cello and orchestra, Op. 61
Second concerto for cello and orchestra, Op. 64
Concerto for piano and orchestra No. 3 in D flat major, Op. 57
AND
Symphony No. 7 in C major, Op. 67

Op.45 in D minor seems to have been published in/by 1896, at any rate. See HMB transcription (http://www.hofmeister.rhul.ac.uk/2008/content/monatshefte/1896_04.html#hofm_1896_04_0155_05).

I have found my Emanuel Moor file and there is much info in it that I forgot I had. I did my research on Moor in 1998 and my link to the Lausanne Archive is now defunct. However I have found the modern links. It is at the  Biblitheque canonale et universitaire, Riponne, phone no +41 21 216 78 80, email info-riponne@bcu.uni.ch

It is interesting what you have found listed on the main online catalogue. In 1998 I duplicated  the list they had of the stock in the archive (entitled Music Cabinet in Office...?). It duplicates the works you list as well as masses of other stuff.In addition to  Symphony No 7 (including extra score) there is (should be) Symphony in D min (full score), Symphony No 5 (score & parts), Symphony in A minor (score & parts), Symphony in D min Op 44 (sic) (Score & Parts), Symphony No 4 (ms score), Symphony No 6, Symphony No 1 (ms Score). My own list has the Symphonies 2 & 3 but I never finished listing everything. I can send you copies of their 'Music Cabinet' list if you are interested. Looking at it there is a huge task for someone to sort it all out, I can understand why the library feels they haven't got the staff resources or expertise to do so. I also wonder whether the works you list from the main online catalogue come out of the archive and why did they chose those ones in particular?

Have I missed a link for this recording? I Google the Moor Society but can't find anything. Does anyone have a link to either the recording or the society? Thanks

QuoteIn what sense Boosey owns the rights besides their wishful thinking, I'm not wholly sure

In the same sense, I imagine, that Peters felt they owned the rights to Litolff's Concerto Symphonique (or Concerto-Sinfonie, as he called it) No. 2 - and Hyperion paid them! But that was because, at the time, Mike Spring knew of no other source of the orchestral parts (no full score was ever published) than the Peters archive. As some on this forum will know, there is a complete set of printed parts in The Newberry Library, Chicago, so as I said to Mike it would have been nice to have been able to tell Peters to get stuffed. They even had the cheek to lay claim to the full score which Hyperion produced (at their own expense) from the parts for the recording, and insisted it be given to them (Peters) after the CD was released. Unbelievable!! Particularly when you know that when Mike approached Peters in the first place they denied all knowledge of having the parts, saying they were lost - it was only because he knew one of the staff in the archive personally, who, being sure the parts were there somewhere, instituted a search, that they came to light.

Prompted by this news, I have just listened to the Hungaroton recording of the Cello Concertos. They are impressive and enjoyable in many ways but, if they are representative of his other music, whatever talents he may no doubt have had he certainly wasn't blessed with the gift of memorable melody.

QuoteHave I missed a link for this recording? I Google the Moor Society but can't find anything.

The recording has not yet been released, and by "Moor Society" I think Aramiarz must mean the "Henrik and Emanuel Moor Foundation": http://www.emanuel-und-henrik-moor-stiftung.de/index.shtml (http://www.emanuel-und-henrik-moor-stiftung.de/index.shtml)  Likewise when he writes about the "Moor Gesellschaft" (at least, I think so).

You are correct dear Gareth!

Thanks for the link. I saw that link but could find no mention of an upcoming release.

The Moor Foundation website is not very well maintained, to be honest. You'll learn about recordings faster here, I reckon!  ;)

That was my impression too. It looked as though it was barely alive, with the last update from March 2014 and no contact function that I could find. I may try to write to them if I can muster the energy – or enough irritation...

Is there any news yet of a release date for this disk?

Dear friends
   Hello! I have the next new: the wonderful second symphony was recorded! Great work. The other piece will be the "Serenade for strings", op 16. Excuse me the next, anyone has information about this work? In the booklet will appear his name If can provide interesting comments.

The PC will be performance the next year. Mr Ritter indicated me that ís more difficult than Brahms's PC! He had performanced both... In one night!

Yes. The serenade is on IMSLP in score, parts and in a recording-ish thing by our participant "matesic" (thanks to!) See http://imslp.org/wiki/Serenade_for_String_Orchestra,_Op.16_(Mo%C3%B3r,_Emanuel) (http://imslp.org/wiki/Serenade_for_String_Orchestra,_Op.16_(Mo%C3%B3r,_Emanuel)). Composed 1881, first published 1888 (or earlier).

So let me get this clear. The first Moor CD will contain the 2nd symphony and the Serenade for strings. Do you have a release date for this, please? And there will be another Moor CD containing the 2nd piano concerto and (I presume) another work, to be recorded next year. Do you know what the other work will be?

Dear Erick & Gareth
   It's correct! The second Cd will be the PC in c moll And maybe the symphony Opus 65 in e minor, anyone to know more about this piece? Was the favorite by Casals?   do You prefer this symphony or the Concert-Ouverture op 24a? We have interest too in the VC op 62, 66 or 72

Well the e minor Symphony no. 6 was dedicated to Casals so one hopes he liked it.

Hi Aramiarz,

Since none of us knows any of this music, I would be grateful to hear anything by this fine composer - whether symphonies or violin concertos. All I can suggest is that it would be good to hear as wide a variety of Moór's music as possible.

I heartily endorse Alan's comment above. More and more, please.

Ok dear friends! I have one question, in Imslp said that the symphony was dedicated to Volkmar Andreae.... :( :-\

That's the E minor Symphony. Andreae, of course, was a very fine composer and conductor...

Well there is some confusion here. I am sure I have seen a list giving the 6th Symphony Op. 65 in E minor dedicated to Casals  and yet I have checked my own lists and find I have noted it as dedicated to Andreae. Given that I can't produce any written evidence to show the dedication to Casals I must assume that I have made a mistake. Hmm!

Aramiarz,

Two things.

1. Have you considered the Pensees Symphoniques Op. 75 or the Triple Concerto, Op. 70, scores and parts for both of which are in Fleisher?
2. Do you have a release date for the Kossuth symphony disk?

Best wishes,
Gareth

The title page of the E minor Symphony clearly shows the dedication to Andreae:

(http://cdn.imslp.org/images/thumb/pdfs/8f/0885f18aad6db48c450bf5cc0a625f6476c77dcf.png)

Andreae also performed the "Improvisationen für Orchester" by Moór in a Zurich concert of 1st June 1908, with works by Schoeck ("Ratcliff-Ouvertüre") and by Brun (1st Symphony) - the latter conducted by the respective composers. The same exciting program included also choral work by Carl Hess ("Nähe des Toten") and by Friedrich Klose ("Vidi aquam"), also conducted by Andreae. But this is only what was played before the intermission! After this, composer Josef Lauber conducted his "Le Paradis Perdu" for soli, female choir and orchestra. Musical life in Zurich appears quite dull today in comparison.

Aren't there 2 E minor symphonies by Moor? (Or am I thinking of the 2 C major symphonies...) One might be the one you have before you, the other the one dedicated to Casals and the one recorded.

Not quite true that we know none of the works at all. At least reductions, etc of those 3  violin concertos are at IMSLP, so one can get a notion...

(Am on vacation and much in the way of participation will have to wait until nearendofmonth...)

There are indeed two E minor symphonies: No.1 (WoO152 unpublished, 1893) and No.6 (Op.65, 1906), the one under consideration here.

There are also two C major symphonies: No.2, dedicated to Kossuth (WoO153, 1895) and No.7, dedicated to Mengelberg & the Concertgebouw (Op.67, 1906).

Dear Gareth, We will wait 2017 midyear for Kossuth Symphonie release. We have in the mind for the future the triple concerto.

For op 75, We have the score and parts, let me to revise this situation.

Thank you very much for this information, Aramiarz.

As we draw towards the middle of 2017, may I ask if there is any news yet of the release of Moor's "Kossuth" symphony? Many of us are very eager to hear this music.

Dear friends, We had a very bad new, Mr Miramontes Zapata, suffered a stroke heart in february,  the good thing Is that him ís better! This situation delayed all projects... Step by step his health is recovering ;)

Oh, I'm sure we're all very sorry to hear this news. Please would you convey our best wishes to him for a full recovery? His health is the most important thing, of course.

Thank you dear Alan, Mr Miramontes Is working now, I hope very Soon give you news about the Moór's Serenade, work that let us get the cd

... now there's a pun- the Moór's serenade?

Anyhow, glad to hear. The serenade in F Op.16 is a lovely work.

I am very happy to hear that Mr Miramontes is back "on the podium". Please give him our warmest good wishes.

Sorry, Aramiarz, but where does the Serenade figure? I thought the CD was to contain the Kossuth Symphony and the 2nd piano concerto.

I am sure that we are all glad to hear that Mr Miramontes is back doing what he does best!

Re serenade: see http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,6178.msg66776.html#msg66776 (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,6178.msg66776.html#msg66776).

Thanks, Eric. My memory is going!!!

Dear friends, in January-february, We Have ready the parts of Concert-Ouverture, this piece will be together the Second symphony. This last ís ready, but We need funds to record the second piece. I can to promise send one Cd to whose support, moreover that his name appear in the acknowledgment in the Toccata Cd. Someone has ideas? Maybe by paypal transference.....

So, the CD will come out on the Toccata label, not Sterling?

It's correct, It will be in TOCCATA. please see:


https://toccataclassics.com/product/paul-juon-piano-music-v1/

Our first collaboration.

Other projects will be release in Sterling

I see. I didn't realise that the pianist on the Juon CD is Mexican.

The Juon Gesellschaft are charming with this Cd, in my opinion Is the better Juon's piano solo Cd available! Beautiful music! Moór too!

So have all plans to record Moor's 2nd Piano Concerto now been abandoned?

The PC will be for one second volume, too we are working in the parts for Moor's Symphony dedicated to Volkmar Andrea.

As I still hope to hear some of of Moor's symphonies and the 2nd piano concerto before I "go hence and be no more seen", I wonder if there has been any progress on these projects. Do you have any news, Aramiarz?

I respectfully repeat my enquiry. Or should I assume that silence means this project has foundered?

Dear Aramiarz,
I will ask one third and last time: is there any news on the Emanuel Moor recording project, or should we forget about it?

Whilst downloading the 2nd symphony recently (which (i) I really appreciate the upload and (ii) I have not had a chance to listen to yet), I trawled the web for any information on this work and came across a site (I think Gareth is familiar with this from much earlier notes in  this thread): http://www.emanuel-und-henrik-moor-stiftung.de/Emanuel/works.shtml

If you'll pardon a long list (moderators may want to scrap this post if this thread has already exhausted this information!), this site's details - sorted- gives the results in the following list (orchestral works only, E & OE):

Orchestral Works:
•   Serenade for Strings (Op. 16)
•   Barcarolle for Strings D min (Op. 38, 1894)
•   Pensees Symphonique (Op. 75)
•   Concert Overture D min (op. 24a, 1893)
•   Rhaspsody pour grande orchestre A min (Op. 93, 1909)
•   Pièce Symphonique (Op. 107)
•   Quatre Esquisses for orchestra (Op. 124)
•   Chant Héroique for orchestra (Op. 132)
•   Consolation for orchestra in E minor (WoO. 163, 1887)
•   Funeral March for orchestra in F minor (WoO. 164, 1886)
•   Spring magic for orchestra (WoO. 165, 1888)
•   Chant Funèbre for orchestra (WoO. 166, 1910)

•   8 symphonies (1893-1910), including:
o   Symphony D min (Op. 45, 1896)
o   Symphony in E min (WoO 152, 1893)
o   Symphony in C maj (WoO 153, 1895)
o   Symphony in B flat maj (WoO 154, 1898)
o   Symphony A min (Op. 53a, 1901)
o   Symphony No. 6 E min (Op. 65, 1906)
o   Symphony No. 7 C maj (Op. 67, 1906)
o   Symphony No. 8 A min (Op. 92, 1910)

•   concertos including piano concertos, violin concertos (1905-1907), cello concertos (1905-1906), a Triple Concerto for Violin, Cello, Piano & Orchestra (1907), a double concerto for piano & violin (1911), a Harp Concerto (1913) and numerous other 'concertante' works:
o   Concerto for 2 pianos C min (Op. 46, 1888)
o   Concerto for Piano & Orchestra in D maj (WoO 167, 1886)
o   Concerto for Piano & Orchestra in D-flat maj (Op. 57, 1904)
o   Concerto for Piano & Orchestra in E-flat maj (Op. 85)
o   Concert piece for piano & orchestra (Op. 88)
o   Concert piece for piano and orchestra (Op. 113)
o   Rhapsody for piano and orchestra in B major (Op. 143b)
o   Suite for piano and orchestra in A major (WoO 172, 1914)
o   Concerto for cello & orchestra No. 1 E maj (Op. 61, 1905)
o   Concerto for cello & orchestra No. 2 C# min (Op. 64, 1906)
o   Concerto for 2 celli & orchestra D maj (Op. 69)
o   Rhapsody for cello & orchestra G min (Op. 78)
o   Second Rhapsody for cello & orchestra in A maj (WoO 170, 1911)
o   Largo for cello and orchestra (Op. 105)
o   Ballad for cello and orchestra in E major (WoO 171, 1914)
o   Concerto for piano, violin and orchestra (WoO 173, 1911)
o   Concerto Violin, Piano & cello & orchestra (Op. 70)
o   Concert piece for viola & orchestra in C# min (WoO 169)
o   Concerto for Violin & Orchestra in G maj (Op. 62, 1905)
o   Concerto for Violin & Orchestra in E maj (Op. 66)
o   Concerto for Violin & Orchestra in C maj (Op. 72, 1908)
o   Concerto for Violin & Orchestra in D min (WoO 168)
o   Second Aria for violin & orchestra in D maj (Op. 83)
o   Rhapsody for violin & orchestra (Op. 84)
o   Concert piece for violin and orchestra (Op. 143)
o   Concert piece for violin, cello and orchestra (Op. 98, 1909)
o   Ballad for cello & orchestra in E maj (WoO 171, 1914)
o   Suite for piano & orchestra in A maj (WoO 172, 1914)
o   Concerto for piano, violin & orchestra (WoO 173, 1911)
o   Concerto for string quartet & orchestra (WoO 174, 1916)
o   Concerto for chromatic harp and orchestra (Op. 141)
o   Concerto for string quartet and orchestra (WoO 174, 1916)

•   Requiem, for four soli, full chorus and orchestra (Op. 151, 1916)
•   Mass for soli, chorus and orchestra (Op. 127)
•   Stabat Mater, Alto solo, women's chorus and orchestra (Op. 138)

As Gareth was, I believe, looking at the Westminster Library collection, I'd be interested in any alterations or omissions to give a more complete list (although it looks as if these works - tempting as they may be - are not likely to grow wings any time soon - moor's the pity (pardon the pun!)

Best wishes

Richard

Hi Richard,

It's always worth doing a search first...
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1734.0.html (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1734.0.html)

"Ah!, grasshopper, this is how you learn!!"

Tks for the hint (and diplomacy!]

Cheers

Richard

'tis a lesson I've had to learn myself!