I would very much like to know your opinion of the following dramatic music, music which probably doesn't please you but almost certainly won't keep you unmoved. You will understand the resemblance, I guess.
"Quartet for the end of time" (Quatuor pour la fin du temps) by Olivier Messiaen and "Symphony No. 3" by Henryk Górecki.
I don't know the Messiaen. I do know the Górecki. It was quite in vogue in the UK 10-15 years ago. It's very accessible but IMHO pretty much a naive "Johnny-one-note" one-trick pony. The mood of lamentation and grief is effectively built up but, because it and the uniformly slow pace are maintained throughout the whole work, it looses its impact because there is no contrast, nothing to throw things into focus. Very much a case of "more is not always better".
The Messiaen is rather difficult. It needs work on the part of the listener - I can't say I've really given it the attention it probably deserves. People speak highly of it but I don't find it appealing.
The Gorecki Symphony is a con-trick. As I said on the old forum, it is one of the great musical emptinesses of our time. That is expressing trenchantly what Mark has written more politely.
I know both works, haven't listened to them in quite some time, and have no itch to do so. They go through the right motions, make all the right sounds, and have a sense of gavitas. But when all is said and done, is this great music? Really? Or is it pretending to be? Maybe the composers have fooled themselves and some followers, but give me a string quartet by Beethoven, Mendelssohn and a real symphony any time! The Gorecki is just boring...no other way to say it. It may be beautiful -- but for what end? The slow movement of Raff's 3rd is beautiful, too, and says so much more in much less time.
There are two other works like these: Gavin Bryars The Sinking of the Titanic and the Silvestrov 5th symphony. Slow, ponderous with no doubt very striking and interesting timbres and effects. But far from having any memorable qualities for which the great masterworks are jusitfiably known.
The Gorecki was essentially a marketing phenomenon here in the UK: it was very successfully and almost single-handedly marketed by Classic FM. Remember, though, that this is the radio station which this morning described Beethoven's Coriolanus Overture as 'Corolliunus', or some such mispronunciation.
Emptiness, no structure, naive, but isn't that exactly what both Górecki and Messiaen had in mind? Górecki based his symphony on an 18-year-old girls inscription, scrawled on the wall of a cell of a Gestapo prison in the Polish town of Zakopane, and Messiaen was captured and put into a Nazi camp as a prisoner of war.
I like to stress that it is not my kind of stuff, and for many music lovers, including myself, it's not great music, but I'm fascinated what the composers mainsprings were for these amazing, and maybe boring sounds. Also this music has a message for the listener, I suppose.
Enough for now. Time to spin a new Rufinatscha disk.
Hi Peter,
I'm sure we'd all to hear your thoughts on Rufinatscha in a new thread - when you have time.
Just to make it clear that Gorecki's 3rd is not naive - it is vapid. There's a big difference.
Rufinatscha's music, on the other hand is neither.
The Messiaen is a masterpiece, utterly and completely. I never really appreciated its greatness until I played the piano part myself in a chamber concert ten years ago with some players from the Met Orchestra. It was awesomely difficult, but it is a work of great spiritual power. Highly recommended is the old RCA recording by Tashi, with Peter Serkin.
It is very fashionable these days to put down Gorecki's 3rd. I attended a live performance last year by the Atlanta Symphony with Christine Brewer singing the soprano part. A recording by Atlanta Symphony with Christine Brewer is now available. I went to hear the Brahms 3rd, which is rarely performed in concert, but was even more impressed with the performance of the Gorecki 3rd.
It was once very fashionable to diss the music of Rachmaninoff. A few still do. Gorecki's 3rd was, in classical terms, a huge hit. It was popular for good reason. Messien's quartet is just the opposite. It is appreciated more by the critics and musicians than by the classical music community as a whole.
The point is, if you like the works, enjoy them. There is no "music police" enforcing some sort of music orthodoxy that requires listening conformity. Even here on this board dedicated to celebration of the unsungs, some are celebrated more than others, and some of us are in the minority regarding our opinions of particular composers or particular works.
Amphissa, I think that that 'fashion' is something of a backlash after Gorecki's 3rd got promoted into star status by ClassicFM and others (also in the Netherlands/Germany).
It's like a Dan Brown novel: lots of people buy it on the strenghth or reputation or recommendation, and then discover that they're rather disappointed. It's bound to happen.
For me, the problem with Gorecki's 3rd (and some of his other works) is the leaded seriousness of them. If you wish to really communicate any sort of meaningful emotion, you need to put things into perspective, 'lighten the load' from time to time. Gorecki never does that. I understand and appreciate his reasoning, but that doesn't necessarily make it a worthwile musical experience.
Although clearly I disagree with Amphissa on the merits of the Górecki, I do agree entirely with the sentiments of his third paragraph. Well said. We should all enjoy what we enjoy.
Hear, hear! I'm not saying you shouldn't like the Gorecki - just that I don't, approachable though it is, AND I don't think it is worth trying to like, whereas the Messiaen might be.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Thursday 07 May 2009, 07:13
Although clearly I disagree with Amphissa on the merits of the Górecki, I do agree entirely with the sentiments of his third paragraph. Well said. We should all enjoy what we enjoy.
I think that is a
sine qua non for everyone here, and it ought to be. Still, we wouldn't be here if we weren't quite opinionated as well ;)
By the way, if you want to explore some different Gorécki, give the Requiem Für Eine Polka for Piano and 13 Instruments a whirl. Great piece, and in its own way as deep as the Third Symphony.
I am not going to suggest that Gorecki is one of my favorite composers. But I do not agree that the 3rd is vapid, empty or naive. It fits quite comfortably into the minimalist school that includes Arvo Pärt, Tavener, Glass, Reich, Riley, Young, Andriessen, Nyman, et al. Maybe Hovhaness fits in there too.
Repetitivism has been used quite a lot in modernist music, from Stravinsky to Prokofiev and others. There are those, of course, who would dismiss the entire minimalist approach as trivial schlock, just as a lot of people dismiss serialism and modernism. But minimalism has developed pretty deep roots in the world of music at large, from smooth jazz to drone, disco to techno, etc. And works like Ravel's Bolero, widely detested by the critics but loved by the populace, suggest that there are aspects of minimalism that resonate with listeners.
Other minimalist compositions that achieved something of a hit status were Preisner's "Requiem for a Friend" and Nyman's Piano Concerto derived from music composed for the movie "The Piano." Rather than condemn minimalist music as trivial or vapid, I prefer to accept the compositions as representative of a particular style or school.
Whether it is music that I want to listen to a lot is another matter. :)
The problem was that, for years, you couldn't avoid the Gorecki. Every time you turned on the radio in the car hoping for something to while away a car journey, there was this mournful, repetitive music. Dreadful. Anyway, it's not for me - but if it floats your musical boat, then far be it from me to criticise...
Dear Raffians!
With great interest I read the pros and cons of both works in the discussion. But both works have something in common, and that is World War Two. Messiaen composed his work in the Nazi camp, and Górecki was influenced by the moving words of the 18-year-old girl scratched on a wall in a Gestapo prison. I strongly believe that these facts are the reason why these particular works of Messiaen and Górecki sound so monotonous. But poignant. They reflect an agony.
Good point Peter!!!
Thomas
Amphissa, I wouldn't like to call Ravel's Bolero 'repetitive' at all, and certainly not 'minimalist'. To be sure, it has repetitive elements, but in minimalist music the orchestration is usually paired down as well (look at Reich, for instance) and you coulnd't really say that of the Bolero. I've always been amazed of the immediate effect the Boléro can have, but the repetitive elements are just part of a powerful mix.
In general, I much appreciate many works by Nyman, Wim Mertens (now there's someone in need of recognition), Reich (the really minimal stuff) and Glass (particularly his film scores). The Pärt/Gorécki school I have some trouble with, mostly because of its heavy, unrelenting seriousness which only has a short gap to clear towards pretentiousness. Kancheli may be the exception: his scores generally are a bit more diverse, which makes them so much easier to enjoy.
Quote from: Peter1953 on Thursday 07 May 2009, 16:53
With great interest I read the pros and cons of both works in the discussion. But both works have something in common, and that is World War Two. Messiaen composed his work in the Nazi camp, and Górecki was influenced by the moving words of the 18-year-old girl scratched on a wall in a Gestapo prison. I strongly believe that these facts are the reason why these particular works of Messiaen and Górecki sound so monotonous. But poignant. They reflect an agony.
Messiaen is not to my taste, but I am not familiar with the specific work.
Górecki's 3rd Symphony is not great, but it is much better than his 2nd.
A work of similar origin is the 4th Symphony of Lees, "with a soprano setting of poems by one of the survivors ... stark realism ... Fear, revulsion, anger ..." (Naxos 8.559002).
This week the Dutch public "Radio 4" broadcasts the Top 400 of Classical Music for the year 2009. The list is compiled by the listeners.
We find Messiaen's "Quatuor pour la fin du temps" on 118 and Górecki's 3rd on 121.
How about our hero's? Not even Raff's Cavatina, not even Rubinstein's Melody in F!
Does this say something about the Dutch listeners audience? Or are our unsung composers typically for connoisseurs like us? I suppose so.
I imagine lists would be similar everywhere, with slight bias toward country.
The Dutch composers I can find are Simeon ten Holt on No. 105 (Canto Ostinato) and Sweelinck on 270 (I think our Flemish brethren would object to me including Ockegem).
No Raff, but Ramirez' Missa Criolla has made it to #400. Typical...
May I just make clear that I do not find (nor did I imply) that minimalist music is vapid or naive. My comments were directed solely at Gorecki's 3rd symphony and they are my personal opinion.
I am very grafeful to every member who gave comments on both works. All comments, without exception, are valuable and make sense. We all have our personal thoughts and opinions, and that is good. Hovite gave an interesting addition by mentioning Benjamin Lees' Symphony #4 which also reflects World War Two.
The reason why I started this topic in the first place was because parts of both works were broadcasted on 4 May . That is in the Netherlands the day we commemorate our war victims. After hearing these intriguing music on the same day I thought: what is the opinion of the members? I am satisfied with every comment, because they are honest and varied.
After saying this, it's time to listen to a piece of music that every Raffian must love: Rufinatscha's 5th.