Another fascinating forgotten figure who I hadn't heard of until yesterday, although he does get an entry in New Grove. Quite a few of his scores are on IMSLP and I hope 4candles and cypressdome won't mind my sharing our conversation:
http://imslp.org/index.php?title=Special:WikiForum&thread=20187
I doubt that anyone here has ever heard a note of his but someone might just have some information?
Here is a synthesized rendition of his single movement Saxophone Quartet. It's been generated from a typeset that hasn't been checked for errors and the dynamic changes could use some work but it's better than nothing. The score of the 1863 edition is available on IMSLP (http://imslp.org/wiki/Saxophone_Quartet_(Kreutzer%2C_L%C3%A9on)). MP3 link: Kreutzer - Quatuor pour saxophones (http://www.mediafire.com/file/9nhv58witugxmuv/LKreutzer_Quatuor_pour_saxophones.mp3).
Absolutely no disrespect intended, but those saxophones sound hilarious! The piece itself is quite bizarre, almost minimalist in its perseveration with repeated crotchets and scales, interspersed with crazy harmonic shifts and dynamic contrasts. I wonder how it would transpose for strings..?
I've now heard it on another PC with a better synth chip and the saxes sound much more mellifluous and the music more conventional, although it also helps having slowed down the Andante and speeded up the Allegro. I'm surprised to find the pitch range is much wider than you'd get with a string quartet, all four saxes exploring their lower reaches. So perhaps this is best left with the instruments it was written for, and I think saxophone quartets across the globe should be grateful.
for just a moment I read PC as "piano concerto" and couldn't quite make sense of the sentence- a synthesized version of a ... different piano concerto of Kreutzer's?
(I see incidentally that his concerto, uploaded from BNF, has 4 movements, with a scherzo, and is called piano concerto, not "concerto symphonique", 20 years before Brahms #2. Good on Kreutzer. It's the little things ;) *)
*Ok, stop with the inappropriate and irrelevant Sondheim song references already Eric. Every day, I tell you...
Kreutzer's would have been an early saxophone quartet but he would have had several predecessors, including Singelée's Allegro (published 1858 I think) and Jérome Savari's (1861) (depending on when Kreutzer's was first published- 1863 according to IMSLP but other sources give 1860-possibly, and a 1861 letter from Sax to Kreutzer suggests that he not only had Kreutzer's quartet in hand to publish in 1861 (or had done so) but was awaiting more quartets from Léon. (The notes to the letter estimate that the existing quartet was at least begun in 1857, if I understand right.) Hrm.
I have directed Hyperion to the score of Leon Kreutzer's PC, which strikes me as rather a good piece. Perhaps they will find a pianist interested in recording it. Fingers crossed.
I have posted parts to Léon Kreutzer's string quartet #6 to IMSLP (the source--first and only edition--is a score only). Since the work was already done I took the opportunity to post computer generated mp3 files of the four movements since it is unlikely anyone will record it--"unlikely" here to be understood as much less likely than the probability for recordings of "normal" unsung quartets.
At the link in the first post of this thread you will find details including some discussion of this idiosyncratic work (and some others). Also at IMSLP: Two recordings by Matesic of Kreutzer works.
Hello all
I've finally taken the plunge to sign up to this forum after years of knowing about it.
And I'll make my first post about the Saxophone Quartet of Léon Kreutzer, which has been taken up by at least two professional saxophone quartets within the last couple of years. Here is one of them - Psaiko Quartet - performing the work as part of a larger programme. I find the piece effective, accessible and eminently listenable.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/YLj0rgyoNx0?start=1319 (https://www.youtube.com/embed/YLj0rgyoNx0?start=1319)
This is the first publicly available professional recording of any of Kreutzer's music that I am aware of, bar one of his mélodies and I look forward to hearing much more from him, as I know of at least one pianist who is interested in taking up his piano concerto and there's a possibility that his string quartets may finally get some love too.
Enjoy
4candles
Anyone here proficient (or very able) in deciphering handwriting? I would appreciate help with the note linked below, written by Léon Kreutzer regarding the piano transcriptions for four hands by Damcke of his two orchestral Symphonies. I can read some of it, but there are parts of it pretty hard to make out.
BnF scan on this page (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b525097596/f91.image).
Many thanks.
Seth
That's a bit of an ask, Seth - I think it may be in French! Could you tell us what you've already deciphered and where the problem words occur? Who's Hippolite?
Thanks Matesic.
After another read-through, I think I can gather the gist of the note. I've given my efforts below, plus a rough Google translation. Anything I can't quite work out is in square brackets with question marks.
- Cher Monsieur Hippolite [Prevol?] - un éditeur courageux a publié a Leipzig mes deux Symphonies [en fa et en Si b] arrangés a quatre mains par M. Damcke, l'un des plus éminents compositeurs de l'Allemagne aujourdui professant a Paris. C'est pour la beauté de [?] que Mr J Maho a fait graver en Allemagne. Car [ils ?] seul revenus en france, et il [?] bien de dédommager par un pue de publicité de frais bien considerable - pour y vous sait au [moniteur?], sait a la france, ou pour le [?] grand charme des [?]
pour [deverée?] ce moi pour la traduction de mes [?]
deux billets de concert - mais [?] ne sont pas a redouter - Vous y entendrez tres bien [?] un [?] remarquable [trio?] de Mr Damcke qui [est?] si chaleureusement [?]
vous avez enfin [appris?] la plume [annoncer?] cette publication - si vous en [desercez?] en un exemplaire Mr Maho se ferait un [plaisir?] de vouz l'addresser - ci joint
Votre affectueux collegue - LK
- ROUGH GOOGLE TRANSLATION:
Dear Sir Hippolite [Prevol?] - a courageous publisher has published in Leipzig my two Symphonies [in F and in Si b] arranged by four hands by Mr. Damcke, one of the most prominent composers of Germany today professing in Paris . It is for the beauty of [?] That Mr J Maho had engraved in Germany. Because [they?] Only income in France, and it [well] to compensate by a publicity stink of considerable expense - for you know the [monitor?], Know to France, or for the [?] Grand charm of [?]
for [deveree?] this me for the translation of my [?]
two concert tickets - but [?] are not to be feared - you will hear very well [?] a [?] remarkable [trio?] of Mr Damcke who [is?] so warmly [?]
you finally [learned?] the pen [announce?] this publication - if you [deserce?] in a copy Mr Maho would make a [pleasure?] of the addresser - attached
Your loving colleague - LK
Any help appreciated!
Best
4c
I got a few words I think - on the RH flap "deux billets de concert mais ceux-ci ne sont pas a redouter. Vous y entendrez tres bien joué un tres remarquable trio de M. ?? qui est si chalheureusement ??". My google translates "chalheureusement" as "reluctantly". I'm encouraged enough to try some more...
Hippolyte Prévost! From the list of composers on IMSLP
Thanks for that matesic. I thought it might be Prévost, but thanks for confirming. I look forward to seeing what else you might be able to decipher.
Good job so far!
Main text - C'est pour la beauté de l'inscription que Mr J Maho a fait graver en Allemagne. Car les examplaires sont revenus en france, et il didiserait bien de dédommager par un pue de publicité de frais bien considerable - pour y vous sait au moniteur, sait a la france, ou pour le [plus?] grand charme des [lettres?]
Don't you think "pue" could be "peu"?!
Left flap - vous avez enfin repris la plume [annoncer?] cette publication - si vous eu [désirez?] en un exemplaire Mr Maho se ferait un [plaisir?] de vouz l'addresser - ci joint
Bottom flap - pour [devenir?] a moi pour la traduction de mes [?]
It's hard work!
Really appreciate your efforts matesic! Makes much more sense now!
That's the most energetic French work-out I've had since 1965!
I'm hopefully not going to incur the wrath of admins here (seeing as this topic has been quiet for a while), but...
I was made aware at the weekend of a midi transcription of
Léon Kreutzer's 'Concerto de Piano' on musescore, made by a clearly dedicated individual who certainly receives my thanks.
The work is solid, if not wholly memorable, and there are some lovely things in it, including some piquant harmonies and unexpected harmonic twists. Certain of the composer's contemporaries felt (and no doubt some modern-day Classical afiçionados may feel) the work, especially the first movement, outstays its welcome, but I didn't find the length overly bothersome.
If listening, my personal take was that the tempi set for Mvt 1 and 2 are too slow, so I increased the speed and the music moved along much better.
Obviously an acoustic recording would be desirable and I'd venture Hyperion's series would be a good fit for it, especially as it may well only ever receive one recording, certainly in my lifetime.
- Léon Kreutzer's 'Concerto de Piano' (https://musescore.com/sheetmusic?sort=comment_count&text=leon%20kreutzer)
4c
I have directed Simon Perry's (Hyperion) attention to this work (Full Score at IMSLP) with a strong recommendation. May I suggest you write to him on your own account advancing this work as a clear candidate for Hyperion's RPC series.
Thanks for the opportunity to hear this behemoth of a work. Even in a MIDI rendition it comes across as a fine, inventive, characterful piece of writing and, despite its length, certainly an improvement on some of the weaker concertos which grace the Hyperion series. I do agree that, at 26 minutes and on first hearing, the opening movement in particular seems more than a tad overlong, but that may because of the limitations of MIDI orchestral sound wearying my ears. The other three movements, while still quite substantial, seem to support their material very well and interest doesn't flag. I do hope that Hyperion pick up the baton and run with it.
Thank you Gareth and Mark for your thoughts and suggestions.
Gareth, that's great that you have again promoted this to Simon. Disappointingly for my efforts, I have emailed Hyperion's general email address several times over the years regarding various recording suggestions and I have maybe received one or two responses all in all. Is there a better way of making contact with them other than the general address (obviously if those details are private, you can IM me if appropriate)?
On the basis of having heard the Concerto, I am also eager to hear Kreutzer's other substantial orchestral works – his two symphonies in B flat major (Beethoven-like) and F minor – as well as his Introduction à la Tempête de Shakespeare, which is apparently rather Berliozian.
His output, almost exclusively housed in the BnF in Paris is quite substantial and includes most genres. This IMSLP list (https://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_L%C3%A9on_Kreutzer) is indicative. Other works of his I am trying to promote in my own way are his rather inaccessible string quartets (9), quartet for flutes, and mélodies, of which he composed over 50 I believe. I'm on the understanding that Psaiko Quartet aim to record his 'Quatour pour Saxophones' at some stage, too.
4c
The Bavarian State Library has digitized its copy of the full score of Kreutzer's Symphony in F minor which I have transferred to IMSLP (https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_in_F_minor_(Kreutzer,_L%C3%A9on)). Unfortunately, the low quality of the images required me to leave it in its original grayscale so the pdf is rather large. The instrumentation would seem unique for a symphony of its time as it incorporates six saxophones and six saxhorns.
That's really neat.
I wish Lilypond still worked on my computer so I could consider extracting the parts but doesn't so can't! (Edit: hey, wait... I found a version that does, I think. Well, isn't that good news...)
This is good to know, and thank you for your efforts cypressdome.
The Symphony was privately shared with me before Christmas and I'm reliably told it certainly is worth investigating by willing orchestral forces. I don't know if it was ever performed like its B-flat predecessor, but my guess it that its dimensions are similar to that of the Concerto, with a long first movement and where the music improves as the work progresses. (Kreutzer seems to have been a fan of his development sections.)
Only a recording or midi rendition will tell!
If nobody else is doing so, I'd be happy to work on a digital simulation of the F minor symphony. I use Sibelius and Note Performer, so it will sound much more realistic than regular MIDI soundfonts. NotePerformer saxophones sound pretty good. Haven't tested out the saxhorns yet, but I expect the same.
Brilliant. I would love to hear it.
I would very much appreciate the opportunity to listen to your proposed rendition!
Although the Piano Concerto was regarded (by anyone who actually heard his music) as the composer's masterpiece, I'd vouch that the Symphonies aren't that far behind in terms of quality.
We can expect a long first movement I'd say.
Thanks for your generous offer!
Members may be interested to listen to Léon Kreutzer's Grand Piano Trio, Op.5, which I discovered unexpectedly on musescore after a routine internet search on the composer.
Considering the composer was largely self-taught, I feel it is an accomplished early work. It's in the 'traditional' four movement format, and clearly rooted in the classics but with plenty of individuality and brightness to make it interesting.
As an interesting aside, it seems all the Kreutzer uploads on the musescore site have been done by Japanese (amateur?) musicians. Indeed, there seems to be a burgeoning interest in forgotten or neglected composers in the far east, demonstrated here and also by such 'institutions' as represented here (https://www.youtube.com/user/ptna/about).
- Léon Kreutzer, Grand Piano Trio, Op.5 (https://musescore.com/user/31488734/sheetmusic)
- Allego giusto
- Adagio non troppo
- Scherzo moderato
- Rondo Allegro
Is the musescore copy a retypeset of the version that was uploaded to imslp from BNF or etc. ...?
From a cursory glance, it appears to be laid out the same way as in the BNF scan uploaded to IMSLP, yes.
Following on from earlier conversation, members may be interested to note that our Japanese friends have posted a midi rendition of Léon Kreutzer's
Symphony in F minor on Musescore.
Not as strong as the Piano Concerto, it nevertheless displays originality and a sense of inquiry (not least in the employment of saxhorns and saxophones – do any other symphonies of the time include parts for these instruments?). Full orchestral compliment noted here (http://"https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_in_F_minor_(Kreutzer,_L%C3%A9on)").
In the traditional four movements as expected, in my opinion each progressive movement improves on its predecessor. And, as with the Concerto, there are some lovely moments throughout (one striking one for me is from around the 10-minute mark in the first movement). Kreutzer was occasionally accused of following too much the Beethoven model, but does Kreutzer's music sound like anyone else? I don't think so!
To anyone willing to give it a go, I would urge repeated listenings, as it does not appeal so much on a single hearing, especially in this restrictive midi audio format. The second movement in particular seems initially to meander quite a bit.
MovementsI.
Allegro moderatoII. Fanfare.
Moderato — AdagioIII. Intermezzo.
ScherzandoIV. Finale. Lento —
Allegretto
- Léon Kreutzer: Symphonie en Fa mineur (http://"https://musescore.com/user/32178370/sheetmusic")
Enjoy!
4c
The link doesn't work for me, I'm afraid, but this does: https://musescore.com/user/32178370/scores/6104626 (https://musescore.com/user/32178370/scores/6104626) for the 1st movement. Just search in musescore.com for the others...
Thanks Mark. I keep trying to edit the original link, to no avail. This is the one I was referring to: https://musescore.com/user/32178370/sheetmusic
But your alternative will do nicely also!
4c
I'm going out on a limb here in suggesting that members may be interested in this, but...
Thanks to the efforts of our Japanese friends, we now have midi realisations of Léon Kreutzer's String Quartet No.2 and his String Quartet in G minor. The former is altogether more coherent as a work, has some memorable themes, and hangs together well. The latter is a sprawling effort, unfortunately hampered by a LONG first movement and (I feel) the unnecessary inclusion of a movement from the composer's Symphony in F minor. Nevertheless, people may reserve their own judgements.
- String Quartet No.2 (https://musescore.com/song/string_quartet_no2-66899)
- String Quartet in G minor (https://musescore.com/song/string_quartet_in_g_minor-66898)
(Scores are presented as 'most recently added', so working from right to left gives the correct line-up of movements.)
I just need to convince someone to look at the four remaining quartets, from Op.15, which should include some of his best music.
4c
Dear all
I've been listening again to the midi of Léon Kreutzer's
Les Filles d'Azur, a work which dates from (I think) the later 1850s.
Variously described in the BnF catalogue as an
opéra-féerie /
opéra de concert /
ballet, scène duetto et choeur, I am struck by the immediate appeal of some of this music, which almost dances off the page. I'm most impressed by the composer's handling of the orchestra in the overall work, and perhaps this is the strong point of the first couple of scenes/sections, but the music in the ballets is quite delightful and I think would make a good impression in the modern concert hall.
- Here is the music of the feature ballets: https://musescore.com/user/32178370/scores/5824716 - the preceding Ballet des Esprits de l'air is also beautiful; short and sweet
- And here is the link to the full work: https://musescore.com/song/les_filles_dazur-2223676
Please do give at least the ballets a listen and try and see through the limitations of the midi format.
Best to all.
4c