Vaughan Williams is currently BBC Radio 3's Composer of the Week. Of course many of his compositions (including several hymns) are part of the musical fabric of the UK, The Lark Ascending and Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis being regularly voted amongst the nation's favourite compositions. I was prompted to wonder, though, just how well known is his music in the rest of the world? It used to be said that Elgar was "world famous in England"; I think his music is better known and highly regarded pretty generally now, but what of RVW?
A few years ago I travelled to Freiburg, Germany, specially for a concert of RVW's Sea Symphony – as I never expected to hear this performed in Switzerland. His is certainly not a familiar name here, his works are very rarely played as far as I can tell.
Good question.
I think there's been a lot of interest in the US. However, I doubt whether mainland Europe has paid him much attention - which is a scandal, as (IMHO) he's our greatest composer, on a par with contemporaries such as Sibelius and Nielsen.
Let's wait and see whether any of today's younger conductors and performers will take him up. Keep your eye on Petrenko (Kirill) in Berlin, for example. (Their Digital Concert Hall currently only has the Tallia Fantasia).
I can speak I think for the US and can vouch for his huge popularity. The exception is the tremendous work of Holst The Planets likely being #1 in popularity. I for one have 20 of his works my favorite being Sinfonia Antarctica, the film version on Chandos.
Take VW's most-recorded symphony, No.5: these are the conductors currently listed at ArkivMusic - non-British Europeans are in red:
Bakels, Kees
Barbirolli, Sir John
Bostock, Douglas
Boult, Sir Adrian
Brabbins, Martyn
Collins, Michael
Elder, Mark
Haitink, Bernard
Hickox, Richard
Hilgers, Walter
Kalmar, Carlos
Koussevitzky, Serge
Manze, Andrew
Norrington, Roger
Previn, André
Rozhdestvensky, Gennadi
Slatkin, Leonard
Spano, Robert
Thomson, Bryden
Vaughan Williams, Ralph
Conclusion: VW has made little headway in (continental) Europe.
I'm from continental Europe (Denmark), and if I had to name just one overall favourite composer, RVW would be the one. So he has made that much headway here :)
But seriously, I think you judge the situation correctly. I don't quite understand why because I completely agree that VW's music is on par with that of Sibelius and Nielsen and quite a few better known composers. But then Sibelius and Nielsen also enjoy a much larger standing in the English-speaking world than elsewhere, apart from Scandinavia, of course. I think we could equally say that Nielsen is world-famous in Denmark - some of my acquaintances are quite surprised that we discuss him in a forum devoted to unsung composers. But it seems to me that British composers in general have problems making headway in continental Europe. I remember reading an anecdote once, according to which a work by a modern British composer had been performed before the break by a Danish symphony orchestra. In the break the source of the anecdote heard a prominent Danish composer say to a prominent Danish critic, "So that's how they write in Britain". To which the critic replied, "And we don't like that". The source claimed that the "we" sounded as if it was supposed to include the whole Danish music establishment.
But as to VW, perhaps the modal nature of his music speaks against his acceptance. I once suggested "The Lark Ascending" to a violinist friend of my daughter. After listening to the first few minutes she declared that "it was far too Chinese for her"(!)
A video of Paavo Berglund conducting part of the 4th symphony is on YouTube. (And I note that several of the conductors not "red"-ded out aren't British, they're North or South American (Kalmar), e.g.) Neeme Jarvi has conducted some works by Vaughan Williams though perhaps not the symphonies?...
The mention of Berglund leads me to believe that almost all European conductors who have programmed Vaughan Williams are likely to have worked extensively in Britain and got to know his music here.
The only exception in the list I gave above seems to be Walter Hilgers who seems to have had no connection with Britain at all.
I would be curious to know how many Planet performances constitute the English performances.
8th - Stokowski? (who did record it.)
Well, Stokowski was born in London (England)!
You're right, I -just- checked and forgot that, too, grumble... :)
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 12 February 2021, 21:26
Well, Stokowski was born in London (England)!
He wrote a lovely symphony I think.
:)
... Stojowski did, haven't heard one by Stokowski.
Bernstein recorded VW symphonies too, hrm as did Mitropoulos.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Friday 12 February 2021, 21:41
... Stojowski did, haven't heard one by Stokowski.
Bernstein recorded VW symphonies too, hrm as did Mitropoulos.
Yes, Stokowski wrote it from 1906-1909 and it was broadcasted by the British BBC in 2013.
:)
ah, interesting, thanks.
I see that Stojowski's symphony is from 1897, btw.
Swedish Radio seems to have a 1978 broadcast of the Sea Symphony in their archives (smdb.kb.se), not sure who's conducting; and others with Sixten Ehrling conducting the 4th symphony (1973 performance); Stig Westerberg conducting the Swedish Radio sym. in symphony no.6 in e (another 1973 performance).
(And there is an LP- transferred to Caprice's album The Virtuoso Tuba - in which Segerstam conducts VW's tuba concerto, with Michael Lind and the Stockholm Philharmonic.) Apparently Riccardo Muti was music director (conductor?) in a season when the Chicago Symphony performed the concerto too (Gene Pokorny).
Wondering if one or more of certain well-known Hungarian-American conductors (Szell, Solti) ever touched VW's works aside from the Fantasia... Tallis... (for let it be said if need be that many of these conductors who seem not to have touched a note of his else, have conducted, yay, recorded even, the Tallis Fantasia. :D Enough so that it didn't seem worth noting Jarvi, etc. as European continental "exceptions" merely on -that- ground alone. )
That said, did anyone mention Désiré Defauw (1885-1960)? He introduced the 5th symphony to the Chicago Symphony, March 22/23 1945. Belgian conductor. (Emigrated to London during WWI, returned to Belgium, then left for North America for I'm guessing obvious reasons in 1940.)
We're way off topic here. Back to VW, please.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 12 February 2021, 23:12
We're way off topic here. Back to VW, please.
We are very sorry.
:-X
... ... I must protest. I mention that Defauw introduced (was the first to conduct with the CSO) Vaughan Williams' 5th (therefore, given its Chicago premiere -by- a Continental European) and this is offtopic? I think I misunderstand the topic...
It was the Stojowski discussion that I meant!
In the case of Defauw, again we have a connection with Britain. For example (according to Wikipedia),during World War I he became a refugee, working in London where he performed at the Wigmore Hall, performing John Ireland's Violin Sonata No. 2 with the composer at the piano. What I'm looking for is a (continental) European conductor who has no connection with Britain...
Ehrling didn't record any VW.
Unless we've missed something, the silence from European conductors appears deafening...
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 12 February 2021, 23:35Unless we've missed something, the silence from European conductors appears deafening...
More deaf with pandemic now I think.
:(
In the US, I think RVW is known through The Lark Ascending, rather than his name. I am referring to the general population rather than concertgoers.
Ehrling did not -commercially- record any VW. He made a broadcast in 1973, as did Westerberg, that was picked up by Swedish radio, apparently.
Very little Vaughan Williams seems to be predicted for the next few months - symphony no.5 in Auckland conducted by James Judd, Five Variants in Cordoba conducted by Carlos Mena (April 29), perhaps other things elsewhere. (And yes, to fail to take the pandemic into account here for the recent silence is like failing to take the... anyway, yes.)
And John Storgards conducted the 6th in Manchester just 6-odd years ago (21-2-2015). So European conductors' interest is somewhat higher than maintained, I think.
Mark- on this subject, is this (https://bachtrack.com/review-video-saint-saens-vaughan-williams-kanneh-mason-wilson-philharmonia-london-july-2020) your card, I mean review?
Ooh, that's spooky! No, not me. I wish I was still that young (and had that much hair) :(
The performance in Freiburg in June 2015 that I mentioned was by the ORSOphilharmonic, under the baton of the German conductor Wolfgang Roese. More about him can be found on the ORSO website (https://www.orso.co/ueber-orso/wolfgang-roese/) (in German only). There's also this brief extract from A Sea Symphony on Youtube (https://youtu.be/1uhJCG_Osgw).
QuoteJohn Storgards conducted the 6th in Manchester
Er, quite. Another UK connection, though. In March 2011 Storgårds was appointed principal guest conductor of the BBC Philharmonic (based in Manchester), effective January 2012. He now has the title of chief guest conductor of the BBC Philharmonic.
The point I'm trying to make here is that there seem to be very few conductors from continental Europe who have taken up Vaughan Williams
without any form of connection with the UK. That's why I'm most interested in Hilgers' recording as he seems to have no UK connection at all:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7944444--vaughan-williams-sea-songs-etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Hilgers
The rule of thumb seems to be: a continental European conductor may well programme Vaughan Williams while working in the UK, but he/she is very unlikely to do so on the continent. I think this supports Mark T's original sense of the matter.
It seems that Alan has identified the circumstances under which RVW is played outside the UK - by conductors who have been exposed to him whilst they were working here. The question which follows on from that, then, is why only (or mostly only) in those circumstances? Why hasn't RVW's music found a place in the repertoire of continental Europe for example, when at least a few of Elgar's works (the symphonies, cello and violin concertos and Enigma Variations) seems to have done? Might it be that his sound world has come to represent a uniquely "English" sound, whereas Elgar's is more cosmopolitan, more clearly linked to the 19th century German mainstream?
You could argue that Sibelius is a uniquely "Finnish" sound? or Scandinavian? I suspect his symphonies are played all over the world. Maybe VW's english folk song roots are too esoteric just as Bartok is to Hungary? Interesting question though.
Well, maybe one factor is that Sibelius' starting-point is the sound-world of Tchaikovsky (e.g. Symphony No.1), whereas VW's is that of Parry/Elgar (e.g. Sea Symphony).
However, we need to remember that Sibelius wasn't always as widely played as he is today - see this interesting article:
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/js_saveltajana_03.html
I would also say that VW (on the whole) is a more progressive (and certainly often thornier) composer than Sibelius - and continued developing into his old age, whereas Sibelius wrote very little after the age of 60 in the mid-1920s. It is harder, I think, to grasp the totality of VW's oeuvre than it is that of Sibelius.
Jn my city, Torino, albeit in 50 years of concerts I heard in actuasl concerts
Symphony n.2
Symphony n.4
Symphony n.5
The lark ascending
Tallis Fantasia (two or three times)
Oboe Concerto
Tuba Concerto
Fantasia on Greensleeves
On Wenlock Edge (chamber version)
Songs of Travel
The above were performed by "domestic" forces (some with British conductors)
Symphony n.4 was performed by Colin Davis and the LSO
Can you remember any of the other conductors, alberto?
Jeffrey Tate conducted the Fifth Symphony, Alun Francis the Second Symphony, Frank Shipway the Tallis Fantasia, the Lark ascending and the Oboe Concerto, the German Wifried Boettcher another performance of the Tallis Fantasia.
So Boettcher was the only continental European! (Tate and Shipway were English; Francis is Welsh.)
and one notes, too, that there are a few works by VW which have traveled more broadly (though it's hard to find conductors who provably have had -no- connection with England or with teachers who've had a connection with England etc. :) ) - the Tallis Fantasia, as noted and to briefly misname it, is in the repertoire of many more conductors than many others of his works, as are a few others. (BTW when -did- Rozhdestvensky record his Melodiya cycle of the symphonies, though this is a historical and not recent question- but tends to militate against too simple an explanation of the whys and wherefores... (never mind- 1988-1989, and yes, following his tenure at the BBC SO 1979-81, as noted in the Musicweb review. So as with the Melodiya Walter Piston 6, there's an explanation for it...))
I wonder though- Mario Venzago conducted the 4th with the Gothenburg symphony in 2006 (not a commercial recording; clicka har (https://www.gso.se/en/gothenburg-symphony-orchestra/archive/?workId=11656)), 4 years before he took his first post with a British orchestra (2010). Well, so goes. :)
Some of you will have the Capriccio CD of rare RVW conducted by the German Karl-Heinz Steffens.
The German Amazon site has an interview with him. (English subtitles included.)
https://www.amazon.de/Poisoned-Kiss-Bucolic-Suite-Country/dp/B072MPK7MM/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=vaughan+steffens&qid=1613243958&sr=8-1 (https://www.amazon.de/Poisoned-Kiss-Bucolic-Suite-Country/dp/B072MPK7MM/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=vaughan+steffens&qid=1613243958&sr=8-1)
My first encounter with RVW Symphony No. 4 was via a radio broadcast. I do not remember the orchestra but the conductor was Peter Jona Korn. Being jewish he emigrated to the UK in 1933 and became a pupil of Edmund Rubbra. According to Korn's German wikipedia entry Rubbra introduced him to the music of RVW who became very important to him. I know several of Korn's compositions but couldn't detect any obvious influence. Well, I admit this is another English connection but at least Korn conducted RVW in Germany with a German orchestra at a time when this was quite a novelty.
That's an interesting CD - and it's good to add Steffens to the (short) list of continental European conductors of VW.
Here's a review of the recording:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Apr/VW_orchestral_C5314.htm
Briefly back to the Gothenburg symphony with apologies, they maintain an archive of what they've performed by composer (which we may wish to consult for other purposes as we have the Vienna Symphony archive etc.), and
here (https://www.gso.se/en/gothenburg-symphony-orchestra/archive/?composerId=948) is a list of the works by RVW they've performed with some links to pages that I assume contain more detailed information about who as well as when. (Does anyone know if Jerker Johansson (b.1967) who conducted the 7th symphony - 9 times? - oh I see, 9 times ending in 2008 has any British connections?) The 5th symphony I see has been conducted by N Jarvi twice in 1995, then by Bartosch (b.1965 in Malmö) in 2000, -then - by Michael Collins in 2015. The list of exceptions is still small, but there are still some. (Also, the popular viola suite was most recently performed with the orchestra in 2014 conducted by Halldis Rønning, who seems to have an interesting repertoire judging from her homepage.
Of course, since she worked with Andrew Litton in 2011... however, I'd like to bring this fact to your attention, which I am reminded of by Ms Rønning's biography and which I should really make a separate comment to this , rather than an edit. Or even a new post. At least. Unlike a half-century or seventy years ago, say, it is now -typical-, expected, usual, for the most promising new conductors to travel, if not quite worldwide, at least all over Europe, Japan, North America, with many major orchestras, during their training/internship. The upshot: it is more likely that you will find a conductor who has... let me rephrase.)
The likelihood that you will find a young conductor now'days who has NOT studied with, become a friend of, etc. etc. for a substantial period of time, a major British conductor, orchestra, ... long enough to also run into some RVW, is much less than the opposite, precisely for that reason. (Which makes the dearth of conductors who then go on and play his music on their own something that takes some explaining. Slatkin, too, would take not just RVW but other composers and either perform them with orchestras nearer their places of birth (Ropartz 5 with a French orchestra - for broadcast not recording anyway- eg) but unfortunately not otherwise, just as it seems he recorded the symphonies with the Philharmonia but only the Fantasia with the St Louis orchestra. USoWeiter...) But it also means that one's explanation - oh, this conductor did so because they studied with this British conductor - isn't, because practically all of them -have- now.
The exceptions that prove the rule, I think.
See further edit which I probably should have separated into a comment.
Well, there are certainly continental European conductors who work/have worked exclusively in Europe and who have not programmed Vaughan Williams - at least not to the point of recording his music, especially his most important body of work, namely his nine symphonies, Job, etc. As has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, this may be becuse VW doesn't fit easily into the European symphonic tradition.
On the other hand, it may simply be that non-continental European conductors have so cornered the recording market that there is no financial incentive to get them to record VW. Perhaps there are scores of performances of his most important music (i.e. not merely the Tallis Fantasia or Lark Ascending) taking place of which we are unaware. But I'm not convinced there are...
A few years ago I mentioned on UC that back in 1990, I discovered to my utter astonishment and dismay that my Australian university colleagues had never heard of RVW. However, in recent years, listeners to the national classical music station have voted, in various polls, Lark Ascending as their all-time favourite piece of music, their most 'uplifting' piece of music, and one of their favourite violin works. By contrast, in a poll of favourite symphonies, RVW's best was his 5th ranked 44th. The most familiar works by RVW, such as excerpts from Wasps and Sea Songs, do get aired on the radio, but the symphonies rarely appear in concerts.
I think one reason for this may be that the major Australian orchestras have generally had chief conductors from the European tradition (a recent exception being Andrew Davis at the MelbourneSO). Just my impression - no hard data!
What I can tell for Germany is mostly the same: RVW feels more or less absent from concert programmes (as is, to be honest, Elgar apart from his Cello and sometimes Violin concerto, and an occasional Dream of Gerontius).
However, there is Andrew Manze in Hannover since 2014 and he is doing some RVW there – of course a Brit again. And a google search of "Vaughan Williams Sinfoniekonzert" (https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=%22vaughan+williams%22+sinfoniekonzert) reveils several outings of Symphonies 2 and 5 at German opera houses during the past years – most of which
without a British conductor.
The "Sea Symphony" seems to be attractive for amateur/semi professional choirs because it is one of the few symphonies extant employing the choir throughout most of the piece, so it got some performances (not only) of this kind as well.
Quote from: Wheesht
The performance in Freiburg in June 2015 that I mentioned was by the ORSOphilharmonic, under the baton of the German conductor Wolfgang Roese. More about him can be found on the ORSO website (in German only). There's also this brief extract from A Sea Symphony on Youtube.
Funny you mention this performance, as I played in this concert. Quite an experience to play this work in concert!
Best wishes! ewk
All of which bears out my initial impression and Alan's proposition. Maybe the thread should have been: "Ralph Vaughan Williams - world famous amongst Britons"?
I think that's right. A world-class composer, barely performed/recorded outside the UK and the US unless it's by UK-connected conductors. In addition: a world-class composer whose major compositions, aside from The Lark Ascending, Tallis Fantasia, and a few other shorter, 'popular' pieces, are barely known at all. In short: a scandal. Look at the attention that, say, Shostakovich gets by comparison...
As an American, I find it hard to believe RVW is so unknown in some parts of the world.
I think we have noted in the past that this is not a phenomenon confined to the UK, and that a number of composers are 'world famous' in their own countries. I find it hard to fathom in the case of RVW, given the popularity of the pieces we've mentioned. I wonder if it's because of the leap in the demands placed on the listener, and the diversity and rather less 'friendly' nature of the symphonies - but then I suppose the same could be said of Shostakovich. For me, RVW's 'sound world' is easily recognized and I struggle to understand why one could adore one work but dislike others, but c'est la vie!
My perception is the opposite of semloh's, that with the sole exception of the fourth RVW's symphonies are actually a great deal "friendlier" than contemporary works from Germany, Russia, even France, and few of his works place any great demands on the listener. Maybe it's that nostalgic peacefulness bordering on complacency that obstructs his universal acceptance as one of the greats. I love him.
"... from England" also.
I found this article to be a carefully nuanced assessment of VW and his music - it explains a lot:
https://www.sfsymphony.org/Discover-the-Music/Articles-Interviews/Articles/The-Vaughan-Williams-Brand
Thanks for the link Alan. I'd scarcely disagree with a word - just wish I could put them together as well as Rothe does.
But hang on a minute, I do object to the B-word with its commercial marketing connotations. What's wrong with "school"? Ruth Gipps was a happy graduate of that school and used to drag Ursula VW along to some of our concerts with the London Repertoire and Chanticleer Orchestras
Agreed, although it's difficult to find a better word than 'brand'. I think he means 'character' or 'characteristics', rather than 'school'. I might have titled the article 'The Essence of Vaughan Williams' - perhaps, because VW was attempting to create music that was essentially English.
Matesic wrote:
QuoteMy perception is the opposite of semloh's, that with the sole exception of the fourth RVW's symphonies are actually a great deal "friendlier" than contemporary works from Germany, Russia, even France, and few of his works place any great demands on the listener.
No, I meant only that RVW's symphonies are less friendly than his popular works. As to whether any place great demands on the listener, it all depends on who the listener is! ;)
When reading this thread and the notion that being only well known in the home country is a phenomenon affecting many composers, I wondered whether this is a phenomenon confined to home countries? I.e. do you know composers that are far better-known abroad or in a specific country other than their home country, whatever be the reasons? A bit off-topic, of course...
That definitely happens outside of music, I see no reason why it shouldn't happen in. (I'm guessing -some- expatriate composers were probably more performed in their new countries than in their old even when they didn't forbid performances in the land of their birth, though not in all cases, though that may not be the sort of case you mean...)
ewk wrote:
Quotedo you know composers that are far better-known abroad or in a specific country other than their home country
It's an interesting point (and I can certainly think of at least one example), but one for another thread, please. Why not start one?
There is a great "Konzertarchiv" on the Vienna Philharmonic website. Every performance since 1842 is listed
https://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/de/konzert-archiv
There are only a few performances of works by VW. Furtwängler conducted music by him for the first time in 1929
https://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/de/konzerte/3-abonnementkonzert/6456/
Bax for example was performed only once. There was an interesting concert of british music in 1935 conducted by Boult including Job by VW
https://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/de/konzerte/salzburger-festspiele/6978/
QuoteFurtwängler conducted music by him for the first time in 1929
Interesting - even if it was only his Norfolk Rhapsody.
On 20 October 1927 Furtwängler conducted the Gewandhausorchester in the following programme:
Gewandhausorchester, Wilhelm Furtwängler Dirigent, Elly Ney Klavier
Ralph Vaughan Williams — Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis
Johannes Brahms — 1. Konzert für Klavier und Orchester d-Moll op. 15
Ludwig van Beethoven — 6. Sinfonie F-Dur op. 68 ("Pastorale").
Ignatz Waghalter conducted the Philharmonisches Orchester Berlin on 1 February 1923 in a programme of Berlioz, Debussy and RVW. The "Konzertführer Berlin-Brandenburg 1920-2012" does not give any details of the works that were played. I'll try if I can find out more from digitised newspapers.
Thanks!
A small insight that occurred to me yesterday watching the TV programme Fake or Fortune - isn't RVW our musical Constable? There's something that appeals particularly to Brits about Constable's rural scenes, perhaps not Constable's intention but invoking a sense of nostalgia which is also a powerful emotion in music. Often the peace is disturbed by a degree of turbulence, as is RVW's music, but never vanquished. I wonder if RVW ever had Constable in mind when he wrote? And whether Constable is as revered on the continent as he is here?
I'd actually be quite interested to know if anyone else thinks this way, or not!
FWIW, I think there's probably more than a grain of truth in it. Some "national schools" of music, like Russian or Czech, export very well indeed, probably because of their rhythmic vivacity and generally colourful orchestration. They were, at least originally, exotic. What used to be disdainfully called "cowpat" music, the British style of the first quarter of the 20th century, probably has much less attraction elsewhere, which doesn't share a nostalgic attraction to our imagined rural idyll. I know that there's much more to RVW than that, but reputation often has little to do with the facts.
Just to follow up from my previous post about Ignatz Waghalter conducting the Philharmonisches Orchester Berlin on 1 February 1923 in a programme of Berlioz, Debussy and RVW: In an overview of first performances in its first March number of 1923 the Neue Musikzeitung lists A London Symphony as a German premiere in Berlin, but neither conductor nor orchestra are named.
I actually think a lot of VW is quite difficult and not at all of the cowpat school! In fact some of his music is pretty dissonant and a questionable fit for discussion here, e.g. Job, the Piano Concerto, Symphonies 4, 6, 8, 9, etc. On the other hand much of his music is a perfect fit for UC. So VW's actually quite a tricky composer to pin down - as with all geniuses. So, for example, it's easy to like the VW of the Tallis Fantasia, Lark Ascending, etc., but to embrace his oeuvre fully takes much more work. I suspect that this is a large part of the problem.
I agree, and wasn't saying that RVW was of the cowpat school at all, just that perhaps that's part of his reputation abroad.
I agree with Alan that some of Vaughan Williams music is beautiful like the 5th Symphony, particularly the slow movement, but much else unlistenable to my ears. That is also true of Malcolm Williamson who could write the exquisite Lento for Strings, closing passages of his Man in Havana suite, Santiago de Espada overture dedicated to Adrian Boult. In his case he seems to have been pushed off track by his peers who heavily criticised him for writing accessible music. Thus the vast majority of his output falls into modern techniques for their own sake, rather than what was in his heart.
Also Richard Arnell with his 4th & 5th Symphony I find very listenable but not the remainder of his output.
Sorry if I have strayed outside the parameters of the forum, but it was just to make a point.
QuoteI agree, and wasn't saying that RVW was of the cowpat school at all, just that perhaps that's part of his reputation abroad.
That's very likely true. Of course, as you suggest, it's an erroneous reputation. He was a very great composer - probably our finest ever - and it takes time and effort to come to grips with his music
in toto.
So more Paul Nash than Constable? I can get that when I think of the fourth symphony and the piano concerto. Of course any analogy is imperfect, but RVW certainly was a man of parts
Nash and Constable, I'd say.
I have known and loved the music of RVW since my teens - and I asked for Michael Kennedy's "The Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams" when I won an essay prize at school (a work which hitherto I had only been able to borrow from the local library - and that had to be ordered specially!). So please excuse me if I say that to my ears none of his music sounds remotely "difficult" - it is all firmly tonal. The 'grinding dissonances' which open the 4th are, in the composer's own words "cribbed from the finale of Beethoven's ninth." If anything, the opening chord of the finale of the latter is even more dissonant than VW's 4th (though it is true that the dissonances go on for longer in VW's work - but we are not talking 2nd Viennese school!!!).
Well, it's taken me a long time to appreciate, say, VW's PC - hardly an easy work, surely. All ears react differently, of course, but I still find that there is a pretty wide gulf in approachability between, for example, his 4th and 5th Symphonies. But maybe it's simply taken me longer to encompass the length and breadth, height and depth of his music. My fault, no doubt.
Just one thing, though: 'tonal' doesn't necessarily mean 'not difficult'. Robert Simpson's symphonies are resolutely tonal, but are pretty tough nuts to crack...
Quote'tonal' doesn't necessarily mean 'not difficult'. Robert Simpson's symphonies are resolutely tonal, but are pretty tough nuts to crack...
Agreed, Alan.
Mark and Alan made my point far more lucidly! There are parts of RVW that seduce the ear with ease, and become favourites, but others - and I think many of his major works - are actually quite difficult to appreciate and which, as noted, fall outside the remit of UC.
Nationalism in music is a vast topic, and we have briefly touched upon it in the past. Could those 'cowpats' be located in French or Scandinavian fields, I wonder, are they really characteristically English! ;D
I'm sorry but I disagree. None of VW's music is more chromatic than Korngold, most of it less so.
Yes, that's true. Neverthless, VW sounds like a composer striking out in totally new directions. That's why he's a true great, whereas Korngold...
Vaughan Williams was drummed in to me at school, and I fear that I will never come to terms with him. But that´s not to say that I don´t think he is a composer of renown, just that I have never developed a liking for much music composed after Reinecke and his followers. As for Korngold, who isn´t really part of this thread, he was originally recommended to me by David Mellor and I´m afraid I don´t think he is in the same class as Vaughan Williams (Korngold,that is)
Vaughan Williams 6th Symphony is more chromatic than anything. It hardly sounds like music to me. I've never heard it in concert. I think everyone knows his Fantasia on Greesleeves.
QuoteIt hardly sounds like music to me.
!!!!!!!!!!!
Quite.
Several authors I like are fond of VW, including the late Reginald Hill (Songs of Travel mentioned in "Roar of the Butterflies" chapter 16) and less unsurprisingly Alan Dean Foster (a work of VW figures in a music battle at the end of one of his Spellsinger novels.. then again Foster likes H Brian too, so...)
I would have to say that the last mvt of VW's 6th is some of the most profoundly beautiful music written in the 20th century. The first time I heard it on the radio (early 80s) I was transfixed. It's a piece (the symphony as a whole) that I've come to value even more as time passes.
It's a great work, yes!
Back to continental conductors performing VW ... Ferruccio Scaglia conducted Symphony 8 for RAI in Rome in the 1960s. I don't know if a tape still exists. I have heard a performance of the Oboe Concerto with Sheila Hodgkinson (a good player briefly active in Naples in the 1960s) and the Naples Scarlatti Orchestra of the RAI under Pietro Argento. Argento seemed to have no difficulty with the style (to an Italian, VW is likely to sound like Pizzetti). This was a studio performance, though.