Unsung Composers

Well here's good news for those of us who can't get enough of Ilya Murometz.  May 3/4 in 2013 the Buffalo Philharmonic will be doing it in Carnegie Hall. A great orchestra, a great hall, and Joann Falletta at the podium. Doesn't get much better than that. Would it be asking too much for a new Naxos recording to be made?

http://www.bpo.org/2012-2013-season/2012-2013-classics.php (http://www.bpo.org/2012-2013-season/2012-2013-classics.php)

I would love to hear it live. Not sure if I can make the trip to NY then, though.

I wonder if they will play it complete or with cuts.

I'm not really interested in a Naxos recording of this. I'd like to have an outstanding SACD recording of the uncut version, played by one of the great orchestras. The Farberman comes close, but his tempi drag a bit in some passages.

If there was a Naxos recording then, yes, I'd probably buy it given these forces for I'm a bit of a sucker for the work. But then it is a work I think of as an 'occasional' symphony, something worth revisiting every 6-8 years and not more frequently.

And then being a curmudgeonly kind of fellow, I'd buy it with a growl of protest thinking of the other very good recordings already on the shelves (Downes and Botstein)........and the complete absence of any recording, good or not so good, of vast swathes of other symphonies or orchestral music.

Over the past few years Naxos have built up a formidable library in their, for example, American or Spanish series. Among both of them are some things to celebrate, and some about which I've promised not to be rude in public. But what about, for example, a Czech series, or a Scandinavian series? Just contemplate the riches that could contain, and of works that, given their quality, it is nothing short of scandalous that they have never been recorded.

Quote from: Amphissa on Sunday 12 February 2012, 09:31

I wonder if they will play it complete or with cuts.

I'm not really interested in a Naxos recording of this. I'd like to have an outstanding SACD recording of the uncut version, played by one of the great orchestras. The Farberman comes close, but his tempi drag a bit in some passages.

I wish they would advertise "complete" or not. Buffalo may not be as well known as Chicago, London, or Berlin, but it's one great orchestra that plays as well an anyone does. Yes, a great new SACD would also be good, but not necessary. Farberman sounds good, but the slow (cautious?) tempos and the unfortunate orchestral bloopers are most irritating. If a new SACD is warranted, I'd  like to hear Neeme Jarvi's take on the symphony.

I'd get Botstein with the LSO. Spectacular!

Quote from: Amphissa on Sunday 12 February 2012, 09:31
I'm not really interested in a Naxos recording of this. I'd like to have an outstanding SACD recording of the uncut version, played by one of the great orchestras. The Farberman comes close, but his tempi drag a bit in some passages

So the London Symphony Orchestra isn't one of "the great orchestras" now? The Botstein recording, on SACD and uncut as well, is EXPONETIALLY better than the droll meandering Farberman recording.

LSO plays well -- which is the only positive thing I can say about the Botstein recording. The audio is a muddy mess. I'm not sure what Telarc engineers were thinking, but it turned out dreadful. And Botstein .... I like Botstein. I've appreciated his work with the American Symphony Orchestra. But this is not one of his better efforts. Actually, his weird tempi are often totally without reason or justification -- certainly nothing like the tempi in the score. Taking a movement that, based on the score, should take 28-30 minutes, and performing it in 22 without cuts ..... wow!

Criticize Farberman all you wish, but his recording is the only one that actually adheres pretty closely to the score. Too slow? Probably. But Botstein's solution is no better than Stokowski's hatchet job.

So, I'm still waiting for a recording that has both the audio and the performance to take this work to the top. Besides, there is already a recording of Gliere 3 on Naxos and a big handful of other recordings to choose from. We don't really need more of those.

I have a CD transfer from a Melodiya LP (MG33832) (1975) that I've found satisfying. It is Nathan Rakhlin conducting the Large Orchestra Moscow Radio and Television. Yes I have to endure pops and clicks but wasn't this work written for a larger than normal symphony size?
Tom :)

Quote from: sdtom on Monday 13 February 2012, 16:56
wasn't this work written for a larger than normal symphony size?

4, 4, 4, 4, - 8, 4, 4, 1 - timpani, percussions, bells, celesta, 2 harps, strings

Quote from: Amphissa on Monday 13 February 2012, 02:20
...I'm still waiting for a recording that has both the audio and the performance to take this work to the top. Besides, there is already a recording of Gliere 3 on Naxos and a big handful of other recordings to choose from. We don't really need more of those.

There's a wonderful recording on Pro Arte with Yoav Talmi conducting the San Diego symphony. Great sound (matrix surround sound), well conducted, but alas, with cuts. Still, for a cut version, it's probably the best out there until Sony releases the Ormandy recording he made for RCA. (There is a Japanese release.) The Naxos is just barely adequate -- and Naxos has pretty much re-recorded all their original recordings, usually (not always) for the better. They could even do it Blu Ray like the new Gershwin disk they have out.

If Naxos records it, I'd be interested too. I have the Melodiya LP as well on 2 lp's I believe? haven't listen to in in a good 2 years, will relisten to it this week.. his String Sextet on the MDG@ lable accompanied by a string Octet is also Very beautiful   

by the way has anybody heard the 1st and/or 2nd symphony and can give their opinion about these which one might be more memorable and/or better?

I can't imagine anyone not enjoying the sheer emotional power of the second.

But yet, I'm sure there are people who do. Probably stuff idiots who think melody is a bane.

The first sounds a worthy early symphony by a talented youth (I know only the Naxos recording).
The second I would rate a very fine symphony (here I have got the Naxos recording and, later, the better Delos- Zdenek Macal and New Jersey Symphony).

Quote from: izdawiz on Tuesday 14 February 2012, 05:04
If Naxos records it, I'd be interested too. I have the Melodiya LP as well on 2 lp's I believe? haven't listen to in in a good 2 years, will relisten to it this week.. his String Sextet on the MDG@ lable accompanied by a string Octet is also Very beautiful   

by the way has anybody heard the 1st and/or 2nd symphony and can give their opinion about these which one might be more memorable and/or better?

I'll be very interested as to your opinion of his third and yes it is 2 LP's with a bit of an oddity if you can pick it up what I'm talking about. I recently reviewed his second symphony http://sdtom.wordpress.com/2011/07/05/symphony-no-2-in-c-minor-op-25red-poppy-ballet-suite-op-70gliere/ (http://sdtom.wordpress.com/2011/07/05/symphony-no-2-in-c-minor-op-25red-poppy-ballet-suite-op-70gliere/) which I can heartily recommend to all. As far as the first symphony is concerned I do own the Chandos/Downes 1993 recording. It is a step above the 1985 Naxos recording. In fact I've got the complete set he recorded for Chandos. It is a brighter vibrant reading of a pretty darn good first effort for Gliere.

Actually, I agree. Botstein is rather quick (though I find it exciting) - and Faberman is an essential listen.

Oh just go ahead and get both 1 & 2! They're both hugely enjoyable late-Romantic pieces.

I have every recording of the 3rd, including all the ones on LP, with the exception of the LP recording of Gliere himself conducting. Of those, I tend to listen to the Rakhlin most often (and my LP is pristine, so no pops and clicks), but when I feel like I want a luxuriant wallow, I listen to the Farber. I'd love to hear Gliere's own recording of this.

I do have Gliere's own recordings of the 1st and 2nd on LP. The audio is not very good and the orchestral playing spotty, but it is good enough for me. It has been so long since I've listened to other recordings of those two symphonies that I really don't remember what they are like. I'll try to pull them out for a listen sometime soon.

Quote from: Amphissa on Tuesday 14 February 2012, 23:37

I have every recording of the 3rd, including all the ones on LP, with the exception of the LP recording of Gliere himself conducting. Of those, I tend to listen to the Rakhlin most often (and my LP is pristine, so no pops and clicks), but when I feel like I want a luxuriant wallow, I listen to the Farber. I'd love to hear Gliere's own recording of this.

I do have Gliere's own recordings of the 1st and 2nd on LP. The audio is not very good and the orchestral playing spotty, but it is good enough for me. It has been so long since I've listened to other recordings of those two symphonies that I really don't remember what they are like. I'll try to pull them out for a listen sometime soon.

There is something about the Rakhlin that is captivating. As far as 1 and two are concerned I would vote for the Downes/Chandos for the first and the Delos recording for the second.
Tom

Thanks Folks, for the great advise !! and yes Alan I'll just get  both1&2, what the heck!  ;D

Amazingly I have heard this live and complete in London (Barbican Hall) in 2002. I think that it was the first performance of the complete work for about 80 years in the UK. The conductor was the indefatigable Martyn Brabbins (of, more recent, Havergal Brian 'Gothic Smphony' fame) who, if I remember correctly, stood in for the indisposed Neeme Jarvi. It was a terrific performance and a wonderful experience to hear it live.

As for recordings, Rakhlin and Dowes are my favourite versions of the complete work - although I grew to love the work through Ormandy's old LP.

I am new to Gliere and the second to third listening session is forthcoming. After ordering the Downes/Chandos Symphony 3, I quickly went for Symphonies 1 & 2, and also Orchestral Works. I am keen to know how you rate Downes, as I am unable to compare at this stage. E.g. is the Downes version cut?

Interesting, two different suppliers each sent me the wrong CD (because the covers look so similar!) Both allowed me to keep the wrong ones, so I now have two for presents.

A smidge off-topic, but if you're new to Gliere, don't miss the Harp Concerto!

Quote from: JimL on Friday 17 February 2012, 21:00
A smidge off-topic, but if you're new to Gliere, don't miss the Harp Concerto!

Ditto the Concerto for Coloratura Soprano!

And the ballet The Red Poppy!

Downes is 100% complete. Rahklin takes a couple of small cuts as I recall from following the score years ago. He also tampers with the orchestration somewhat.

I'm uploading a live concert recording from 2007. Sounds uncut and on tempo to me. A fine performance.

The Rakhlin is also my favorite, especially in the monumental finale. Does anybody know whether the cd on Russian Disc is the same performance as the Melodiya lp?

Quote from: Amphissa on Saturday 18 February 2012, 04:07

I'm uploading a live concert recording from 2007. Sounds uncut and on tempo to me. A fine performance.

Yummy.

Also, the Horn Concerto and the ballet suite from Taras Bulba (on a 90s ASV disc) are great stuff as well.

I have concert broadcast recordings of the horn concerto, harp concerto, and concerto for soprano coloratura. Would anyone be interested in those for download?

Does a bear...never mind. ;D

Okay, will do.

....and we may have a new winner. That uploaded recording is really great (not too surprising considering the source)

I have always valued the opinion of this forum and was wondering which Gliere recording should I send to someone. Is there one that is considered a step above albeit a small one.
Tom

Well, if a complete version is called for, Downes on Chandos probably the best overall as of now. For sound, playing, conducting it seems to have it all. But...

Some people are put off by the length of the whole thing, and there is (was) a cut version on Pro Art with Yoav Talmi conducting the San Diego Symphony that is thrilling, extremely well recorded and for many listeners it's all the Ilya they need. If you can find it, it's well worth looking for.

The fabulously played Botstein/LSO version on Telarc has its supporters, although it's almost certainly too quick. Downes (Chandos) is probably the safest all-round bet and then there is the older Farberman recording (much more expansive and on 2 CDs c/w the Cello Concerto).

Alternative to the Downes, the Brostien on Telarc is the only other real choice, though apparently the sound isn't as good as it should be on the SACD layer (I think it sounds fine on the CD layer).

I find the Farberman recording utterly hidious.

I do have the Downes on Chandos. I'll give this thread another day or so and then decide. As always I'm most appreciative.
Tom

I'd vote for Downes. I do have an old LP of Stokowski's performance; heavily cut as you might imagine.

try Rakhlin and the USSR Tv-Radio Symphony Orchestra. (Old lp, Melodiya-CBS i think)

I think (I may be wrong here) that Ormandy made a recording - cut, but not so massively as the Stokowski version.

Quote from: theqbar on Wednesday 18 December 2013, 15:55
try Rakhlin and the USSR Tv-Radio Symphony Orchestra. (Old lp, Melodiya-CBS i think)

I have a transfer of this one but it is a bit scratchy. The sound is a bit on the shrilly side also but the performance is quite good.
Tom

I still have the Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra recording on an RCA LP. It was my first exposure to Ilya Murametz, which gets a typically lush, technicolor performance. It is, a Gareth says, heavily cut and lasts fractionally under an hour. I don't think that it is available on CD.

The (cut) Ormandy is available as an ArkivMusic reissue CD:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=4487&name_role1=1&name_id2=56111&name_role2=3&bcorder=31&comp_id=17641 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=4487&name_role1=1&name_id2=56111&name_role2=3&bcorder=31&comp_id=17641)

<<I have a transfer of this one but it is a bit scratchy. The sound is a bit on the shrilly side also but the performance is quite good.Tom>>

I don't have it on cd, so i don't know about the sound, but the performance is my favourite, especially the scherzo is magic. I also have an old DG lp with Ferenc Fricsay conducting the RIAS Berlin orchestra, but with cuts, it lasts almost an hour.

it has been reissued on cd, here's the link    http://www.amazon.com/Fricsay-Moderne-Symphonie-Concertante-Liebermann/dp/B00004UGOL/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1387450563&sr=1-1&keywords=gliere+symphony+3+fricsay
(http://www.amazon.com/Fricsay-Moderne-Symphonie-Concertante-Liebermann/dp/B00004UGOL/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1387450563&sr=1-1&keywords=gliere+symphony+3+fricsay)

For something really special, there's the older, mono, but utterly complete Ilya from Scherchen. Shamefully not re-released on cd by whoever owns the Westminster catalog, but you can get it here:

www.Rediscovery.us (http://www.rediscovery.us)

I still have a Philips CD recorder that allows direct recordings from my turntable so I've done a 100 or so. It uses a special kind of CD from Sony which I still have 200 or so of. I suppose I could run it through Adobe Audition and get rid of the horrid pops but with the Downes I seem to be happy. I was introduced to the work by the way through the Stokowski recording with the Houston Symphony.
Tom

I am pretty sure I own a copy of every recording of this symphony.

Choosing a version to gift can be hard. The only complete version that actually follows all the tempo markings of the composer is Farberman's. This is my favorite recording, but admittedly, it is a long haul and some people get antsy listening to it.

Even though it is not complete, the Rahklin performance is very good. The audio of the original LP is also very good. Unfortunately, the audio quality of the CD transfer on Russian Disc is unpleasant.

I don't really care for the Downes much. It is not really complete, but close, so that's okay. But the best can be said of it, IMO, is that it is polite and proper. It is rather flavorless, lacking in character or depth.

Both of Stokowski's recordings are chopped to pieces and completely worthless. Talmi also suffers a lot of cuts, although the audio is very good. Golovchin's recording is bland and uninspired. Johanos is equally disappointing. I haven't seen the Ormandy recording around for a long time. It's not one I'd recommend anyway.

I really like the recording by Scherchen. It was complete, musical and had a depth of character. I have only heard the LP. It is available on CD from Naxos, but I don't know how good their transfer is. It is also available complete on YouTube, if you want to preview the performance.

Botstein is a real mystery to me. I'm not sure what he was trying to do in his interpretation, but the final result is not really convincing to me. He really distorts tempi a lot, and although it claims to be uncut -- well, maybe he was looking at a different score than everyone else.

So, I won't make a recommendation. If I were gifting, I'd be choosing between Farberman, Scherchen and I guess Downes as a fall back.

I must say, I agree with Amphissa about the Farberman recording. I have always liked it and it is both complete and, as far as I can make out, pretty faithful to Gliere's tempo markings. Not everyone likes it, however. I'm afraid I have only the cassette recording. I don't know what the sound is like in its CD reincarnation - but I have been thinking recently about buying it. Any views? The Scherchen I regret to say I do not know - it is mono, I believe, but I'm not knocking that.

Farberman sounds absolutely fine. It is, after all, an early digital recording originally issued on Unicorn LPs. If you want Ilya Murometz absolutely uncut and played at tempi faithful to the score, this is the recording to get. However, be aware, an uncut score at the right tempi = 93 minutes of music.

Here's Rob Barnett's summing-up at MusicWeb:

<<This is a real treat for those who like to venture around the periphery of Russian nationalist repertoire and there are plenty of rewards to be had. Audio 'archaeologists' should also snap up this bargain price set. The recording of the Symphony is one of the very first digital recordings and was made by Bob Auger using hired Sony PCM-1 machines. Entire movements were recorded each in a single take! It still sounds wonderful. It is of the wide-open spaces school rather than the close-up microphone approach.>>
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Oct05/Gliere3_RRC2068.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Oct05/Gliere3_RRC2068.htm)

Yes, but...Farberman takes glacial tempos to play it safe in my opinion, knowing that editing digital in those early years would be difficult. And so, there are some small and really huge gaffe in the playing. One really obnoxious one occurs in the 1st movement at the end of a climax in (naturally) the brass. Every time I play that recording I find myself getting tense as that moment approaches. The recorded sound is absolutely first rate even by today's standards.

Don't be so quick to dismiss Ormandy; he had a real affinity for the Russian school and both of his recordings are wonderful, IMO. The first, on an older Columbia LP, is more youthful and energetic. The later RCA shows he mellowed a bit, but the playing of the fabulous orchestra makes up for it.

Another older, mono, and hugely cut version worth hearing is the Jacques Rachmilovich with a scrappy Italian orchestra. Fabian Sevitsky's mono, cut, with the Indianapolis Orchestra is also quite thrilling.

One other thing: the Rahklin recording is not only slightly cut, but he augments the orchestration such as adding tubular bells in the first movement at the chorale. Naughty conductors!

This is composer and musicologist Avrohom Leichtling's (critical) take on the Botstein recording, which also commends Farberman:

<<I have known this work in score (all 413 pages of it) for nearly 50 years now - and have been attentive to every recording that has surfaced. Some performances cut the guts out of the piece making a mockery of Gliere's carefully crafted architecture. Others come close to the mark. The only recording to follow GLIERE's markings accurately is still available and is conducted by Harold Farberman. The only recording which, if not entirely accurate tempo-wise, is sonically quite spectacular, and that is Sir Edward Downes'.

The present recording is a colossal disaster from every perspective. When a recording announces itself as being "complete and uncut" and yet, in this case, has a performance time of 72 minutes, you know something is terribly wrong. I was antipating a solid performance from Leon Botstein, and spectacular sonics from Telarc. Neither is the case. Telarc's engineers have totally missed the boat on this recording: The LSO sounds like it was recorded in a Turkish bath house, the acoustics are so terrible. There is no definition, no balance, everything sounds muffled and totally out of kilter. This is astonishing given Telarc's past record of superlative orchestral recording.

The LSO plays at its usual high level - but is totally sabatoged by Botstein's absolute dismissal of Gliere's tempo markings, either specifically or conceptually. The architecture of the four movements of this work are very carefully constructed - such that the first, second and fourth movements each have performing times between 27 and 28 minutes: yet Botstein manages the first in 22 minutes, the second in 20! and the last movement in 22. Botstein's tempi in the first movement are often not even in the same universe as Gliere's - i.e. the all important bits of liturgical chant at Rehearsal #8 are completely wrong, first measure to last. The materials given here are critical to the rest of the piece and are blown away as if they were a bit of meaningless trivia. The fourth movement, for example, begins in a "slower" tempo, progress through a series of accelerating tempi and then arrives at allegro - but is, rather, played at the arriving tempo - you know the conductor either does not know the score, or has totally misread it. The second movement builds entirely out of the "creepy" sul ponticello augmented triad blurr with which it opens - and the progression is supposed to be very, very slow. Gliere gives only one tempo marking for the movement: quarter=54. There are no accelerandi marked anywhere in the movement, and only one very brief retardando. Many of the complex figures are unplayable if the tempo is too fast - the result here is a hideous kind of sloppy rhythmic hyperventilation, not the orgasmic agitation which is, in fact, what is in the score. Here, it is all matter of fact without any feel for the "geist" of the music. The third movement lacks clarity and projection altogether. It is unlistenable. The long peroration at the end of the fourth movement, itself a very ingenious recapitulation, al roverso, of the materials that preceded it, is meaningless when it happens too soon. (See "accelerando" above). For all these (and many other reasons) I would have hoped that Mr Botstein, who is also known as a musicologist, would have paid more attention to the score. Certainly, he could have followed Gliere's markings "more closely." That he did not gives us this egregious bit of interperative charlatanism. The power of this music is fully revealed in that most fundamental of musical attributes: time. The piece works because things happen "at the right time" as much as a result of "what" happens. Gliere knows his business - and it is totally indefensible to tell the composer "you didn't write the correct tempi" in your score. Such arrogance! Such chutzpah!

Avoid this recording like the plague. It is absolutely, totally wrong and negates, at virtually every point, everything that's in the score.>>

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gliere-Symphony-No-Ilya-Murometz/dp/B00007GZAT/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387492010&sr=8-1&keywords=ilya+murometz+botstein (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gliere-Symphony-No-Ilya-Murometz/dp/B00007GZAT/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387492010&sr=8-1&keywords=ilya+murometz+botstein)

The newer (2004) release of the Farberman on Regis label is remastered and quite good audio.

Farberman's tempi are not "playing it safe," but playing it right. He follows the tempo markings of Gliere. Other conductors tend to introduce cuts and/or pull around tempi to accommodate their own sensibility.

By the way, there exist recordings of all three Gliere symphonies conducted by the composer himself. I bought the LP of him conducting his 1st Symphony from a Moscow retailer. I've never run across the other two, either LP or a digital rip. I would love to hear how Gliere himself approached the 3rd!

I was not aware of a recording by Fabian Sevitsky with the Indianapolis orchestra. Is it a commercial CD? Where would I obtain it? I'm not having any luck with Google.

Argh! I mis-spoke. I meant Stokowski - his first on 78's. What was I thinking?

I'm looking forward to the upcoming Naxos recording from Falleta and Buffalo, they've done some really good stuff over the years. Better yet, I want Neeme Jarvi with OSR on Chandos in SACD!

Quote from: Amphissa on Thursday 19 December 2013, 20:16
I am pretty sure I own a copy of every recording of this symphony.

Do you have the Naxos recording #8.550858 with Johanos and the Slovak Radio Symphony?

Tom

Quote from: sdtom on Friday 20 December 2013, 21:05

Quote from: Amphissa on Thursday 19 December 2013, 20:16
I am pretty sure I own a copy of every recording of this symphony.

Do you have the Naxos recording #8.550858 with Johanos and the Slovak Radio Symphony?

Tom

Yes. I was disappointed with it. The audio is good, but to me the performance really lacks any sort of spark or energy or depth. Just a read-through of the score.

Unlike Amphissa I only have two versions of Glière 3: Faberman and Downes. Both are wonderful, committed performances, but if I had to choose, I'd keep the Faberman. I played the second movement of the Faberman for someone who didn't know Glière; they were properly overwhelmed and within weeks were trying to convince the music director of an Australian orchestra to program it. So I'm confident that the Faberman would make a wonderful gift. But so would the Downes. I'm a big fan of Downes's Glière 1 and 2 also.

Quote from: mbhaub on Friday 20 December 2013, 20:24
I'm looking forward to the upcoming Naxos recording from Falleta and Buffalo, they've done some really good stuff over the years. Better yet, I want Neeme Jarvi with OSR on Chandos in SACD!

Do you know which Falletta performance(s) they'll be using for the Naxos CD? I have an off-air recording of Falletta with the Buffalo Symphony performing it at Carnegie Hall in May 2013, but they performed it twice in Buffalo before going to Carnegie Hall with it. It is not a complete version (70 minutes). The Buffalo band is not a real powerhouse, so they cannot really provide the kind of weight and depth that the symphony possesses. Some of the passages lack spark, mystery and musicality, and the lack of weight leaves it seeming without passion, but the orchestra does play with good concentration and the performance is better than many of the recordings that have been made.

If it turns out to be like the off-air of the live performance, it will not be a challenger to Farberman or Scherchen by a long shot, but at Naxos prices, one cannot expect perfection.

By the way, the Scherchen recording is available from Naxos *outside the U.S.* as a download. There is, to my knowledge, no commercial version of the Scherchen available in the U.S. at present, other than used LPs.

This is the only challenger to Farberman, and IMO it is in some ways preferable to the Farberman. The Vienna orchestra is spectacular, of course, and Scherchen has always been one of my favorite conductors. This recording captures the scope and amazing color of this remarkable symphony. It is actually a better performance than Farberman's, although not as polished. It's more like a live recording, with a few cracks in the brass. Although it is complete, Scherchen chooses somewhat faster tempi than Farberman, thus completing the performance in about 10 minutes less time.

If the Scherchen were readily available, it would be an easy recommendation. Although it was recorded in 1952, the Naxos download audio is quite good (if not up to today's standard). If you have access to the Naxos download, it is a worthy recording for any collection.

All these comparisons led me to download the Faberman performance. I had only heard the old Ormandy reading on an RCA LP, the Downes on Chandos and the Johanos on a Naxos CD (which is greatly inferior to them both). I must say that I have been completely wowed by Faberman's interpretation. His tempi are broad, certainly, but then if they are what Glière indicates in the score then I have no problem with that and the faster sections, when they come, are all the more pointed and exciting as a result. My overriding impression, though, is of watching some glorious Hollywood epic like the Lord of the Rings, unfolding in unhurried splendour. One really gets a feeling for the architecture of the piece too, those great arcs which Glière built into those three massive movements, each almost half an hour long. I read Martin's comment about the orchestral gaffes but, to be honest, I'm not really aware of them. Pre-Faberman I loved Ilya Muramets, but regarded it as no more than a self-indulgently gorgeous apotheosis of Rimskian Russianness. I still think that, but I can now see for the first time the breadth and depth of Glière's vision and find it tremendously impressive.

I have been following this thread with close attention. I only have the Downes performance and was happy with it. Reading of the comparisons between the different versions available and listening to soundbites, I was already thinking that I might acquire the Faberman performance as well. Reading Mark's posting just now has convinced me to also buy the Faberman performance, especially as it is uncut and is obviously thrillingly realized! I have just ordered the double CD on Amazon (I prefer to have actual CDs wherever possible but am going to have to move over to Internet downloads as space becomes more and more limited!).I will look forward to hearing the symphony in the New Year. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

The Scherchen is available at rediscovery.Us as a free MP3, or you can order a cd which sounds better. It's all legal - they made the CDs using LPs.

This thread has turned out to be a real study of the symphony. I'm going to send my friend the Downes version and I'm going to listen to the Scherchen over at rediscovery.US. This turned out to be a real learning process for me and I want to thank all of you. I really appreciate this forum along with the members.
Tom

Quote... a self-indulgently gorgeous apotheosis of Rimskian Russianness

Yes, those Scriabinesque harmonic extensions to the harmonic palette are gorgeous indeed, and in their day, like Tristan's harmonic vocabulary before, seem to have struck some as licentious. I think Glière brings something else to the table too, though. To put it in perspective, consider Rimsky-Korsakov's own Symphony 3. I count this as the most successful of his academic compositions, and one that I believe has more expressive potential than I have yet heard in recordings. (That Tchaikovsky, a better symphonist -- most of us will agree -- intended to conduct it on a date that turned out to be just a few weeks after his premature demise indicates his knowledgeable sympathy with the score.) Yet good as Symphony 3 is, within Rimsky's oeuvre, in my entirely banal opinion, other orchestral and staged works rise to greater heights of inspiration. The question is, why? And one possible answer is that there was something about the aesthetic framework of successive static "tableaux" that not only allowed Rimsky's superb sense of color a suitable medium but also allowed his artistic vision a framework that brought out its most characteristic expressions. (One might very loosely compare Rimsky to Seurat and Tchaikovsky to, say, action-packed Delacroix.)

How can one speak of such a thing as a static tableau in a temporal art like music? Metaphorically, of course. What I mean is that in Antar, for example, where Rimsky discovered the tableaux framework, themes may be seen through analysis to comprise various shorter, perhaps shared, musical motives. But Rimsky himself does not use his Antar themes this way; not as Haydn or Beethoven did in sonata forms and not as Wagner did in the Ring. Themes appear and reappear, rather like shadow puppets, in different contexts and with different colors but melodically unchanged. Process is something that happens around a theme, not _to_ a theme. The final effect of a tableau-based musical work depends not only on the quality of its themes and musical surroundings -- be they majestic or mysterious or exotic or charming -- but even more on the cunning with which themes and surroundings interact -- a different and perhaps somewhat less powerful creative challenge from making cogent Durchführungen but by no means an easy one.

One other short piece of background: and that is the evidence of Glière's first two symphonies, both tightly constructed in the Germanic manner of Tchaikovsky or Glazounov and the second having a real expressive weight that Rimsky struggled harder to achieve when dealing with academic forms.

What I hear Glière doing in his Symphony 3 is trying to find a way to integrate the Germanic and Rimskian models. I would venture to say that the length of the symphony is driven not by mere ambition but is in fact the "canvas" size required to give both the Durchführung and tabelau musical frameworks a chance to function effectively on their own, and also to intermingle.

Of course, Glière never wrote another work like this, and perhaps it can be said that while the work is a success the experiment wasn't. Then again, the Great War and Russian revolution changed so much it's hard to know just what Glière might have done in other circumstances, just as we cannot know whether Schumann's late choral-orchestral Ballades for Düsseldorf, which he considered a new genre, would have led to something more had he continued composing into the 1860s and '70s.

Quote from: mbhaub on Saturday 21 December 2013, 14:20
The Scherchen is available at rediscovery.Us as a free MP3, or you can order a cd which sounds better. It's all legal - they made the CDs using LPs.

Are you comparing sound quality by wave vs, mp3 because you're spot on that this is by far the best recording. Wow. If you think there is enough of a difference I'll get the CD.

Quote from: sdtom on Saturday 21 December 2013, 17:12
...this is by far the best recording.

Hardly - unless you mean 'the best performance'.

Of course I meant performance. And it sounds fine for an archival recording.
Tom

I'm not sure why, but I do not see the Scherchen at ReDiscovery.US. Of course, the audio transferred from record is available on YouTube for free. And the Naxos download (not available in the U.S.) seems to be from record as well, rather than from the original tapes. (That's by ear only, so may not be true. The tapes may have degraded.)

The symphony demands modern recording quality. The Farberman performance fits the bill to a tee.

Quote from: Amphissa on Saturday 21 December 2013, 17:39
I'm not sure why, but I do not see the Scherchen at ReDiscovery.US. Of course, the audio transferred from record is available on YouTube for free. And the Naxos download (not available in the U.S.) seems to be from record as well, rather than from the original tapes. (That's by ear only, so may not be true. The tapes may have degraded.)

FIND the link for CATALOG, then CONDUCTORS M-Z. Scroll down and find Scherchen.

I bought the CD, and yes, it has greater depth than the MP3. Both were cleaned up rather well of ticks and pops - Westminster LPS weren't known for sterling pressings. For a 60-year-old mono recording, it holds up pretty well. Just don't expect the sound Unicorn lavished on Farberman.

The Falletta recording of Gliere appears in youtube, i heard it, but i don't think, as other members already mentioned, that it can be a real alternative for Farberman (or Rakhlin, for me). That said, though, i 'm really glad she performed the symphony in a big city like NY. And, trying not to be off-topic, but has anybody had the chance to hear Ilya Muromets live?

Thank you, Chill, for your insightful and erudite discussion.

To me, Gliere's great achievement in his 3rd symphony was the fusion of Russian and Germanic styles. You'll remember that Gliere studied and worked in Germany during the years immediately preceding the composition of his 3rd symphony. While there, he surely absorbed the influence of Wagner and Bruckner, both of whom crafted magnificent works incorporating a "static tableau" form of presentation. And while there he surely heard the 2nd and 3rd symphonies of Sibelius, with their grand scene-settings.

His challenge was to meld these broad ideas into a genuine Russian symphony, imbued with the musical tradition you highlight, especially Rimsky-Korsakov.

In scale, Gliere's symphony is Wagneresque in grandeur -- completely fitting for a country so large as Russia. And the programmatic subject of his symphony, a heroic figure from Russian mythology, was the perfect choice.

Personally, I find the color and flowing energy of Gliere's masterpiece much more compelling than his Germanic predecessors. My one surprise, I suppose, is that Gliere did not include a role for voices in the piece.

I think this symphony could not have been written at any other time or place in history. I consider it one of the few genuine unsung symphonic masterpieces. Unfortunately, it demands a lot of time to perform and to listen to, and an orchestra worthy of its scale and demands. So it is not likely to make its way into the standard repertoire anytime soon.

Answering literally to the question in post 38, I did attend a live performance of Gliere Third in Torino, about 20 years ago, and it was uncut. Sincerely I am not aware of any other Italian performance.

Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 21 December 2013, 18:19
The symphony demands modern recording quality. The Farberman performance fits the bill to a tee.

I like a man who stands his ground to the end.
Tom

I have just uploaded a late 90s life-performance from Cologne conducted by Neeme Järvi.
I don't know if it is uncut; it takes nearly 81 minutes.

Merry Christmas to all!  :)

At 81 minutes, if it has cuts, they are minor. Scherchen is complete. His tempi are faster than Farberman, so he clocks in at a swift 80 minutes.

I'm eager to hear the Jarvi! Thanks so much! A merry Christmas indeed!

I say Farberman. Downes is very good though.

Jarvi also conducted this symphony with the Philadelphia Orchestra in 2002 at Verizon Hall in Philadelphia.
Dutoit conducted it with his Montreal band in Montreal and then at Carnegie Hall in 2001.
Lopez-Cobos conducted it with the Cincinnati Symphony in 2002
     and again with the Orquesta Sinfónica de Madrid in Spain in 2006.
Brabbins conducted it at Barbican with the BBCSO in 2002.
Sinaisky at the Proms with the BBCPO in 2007. (This performance was complete, 81 minutes)
It was also performed in Columbia, Argentina and Romania in recent years.

So it has been receiving more attention during the past decade. I wonder if any radio broadcasts exist for those performances. I know the Proms recording is about from BBC radio, as is the Falletta which was broadcast on WQXR in NY. I have not seen any of the others.

Quote from: Amphissa on Sunday 22 December 2013, 02:50
I consider it one of the few genuine unsung symphonic masterpieces.

I'd like to agree because I really enjoy the piece, but frankly it's too looooooong for its material. Musicologist and Russian expert David Brown surely gets it right:
<<This epic piece must earn admiration if only for the enormous time span over which the pictorial vividness is sustained, despite the slender substance of the musical material.>> (emphasis added)
A Guide to the Symphony, ed. Robert Layton, p.278.

Quote from: britishcomposer on Sunday 22 December 2013, 18:26
I have just uploaded a late 90s life-performance from Cologne conducted by Neeme Järvi.
I don't know if it is uncut; it takes nearly 81 minutes.

Merry Christmas to all!  :)

Thank you so much for this great Christmas surprise! I've just finished listening to the
entire work - magnificent!

http://classical-music-online.net/en/production/3222 (http://classical-music-online.net/en/production/3222) - here's a link to hear and download the Sinaisky (among others) version.

Quote from: theqbar on Monday 23 December 2013, 14:03
http://classical-music-online.net/en/production/3222 (http://classical-music-online.net/en/production/3222) - here's a link to hear and download the Sinaisky (among others) version.

Based on the movements timings I guess that version is really the Chandos recording
with Downes!

Not to mention the Marco Polo/Naxos recording with Johanness.

Falletta's recording is announced as a February release:
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Naxos/8573161 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Naxos/8573161)

Uncut!

We can never have enough Murometzes! ;D

Here's a fascinating article on Falletta and the new recording:
http://www.fanfaremag.com/content/view/53308/10261/ (http://www.fanfaremag.com/content/view/53308/10261/)

Im so sorry to ask this question, as I am not very familiar with this composer but was the Chandos version cut?

I'll be interested for sure.
Tom

FBerwald- interestingly, the notes don't say; good question... I see that Farberman's recording on Alto takes 15 minutes longer, but that could also be a matter of tempi...

Quote from: eschiss1 on Saturday 04 January 2014, 04:41
but that could also be a matter of tempi...

It is. Although it's also uncut.

The Farberman? Yes.

As to Downes, I'll see if I can find a library I have access to with both the score and the Downes recording, for some sitting-down-comparing, one-of-these-days. The score has been reissued by Russian Music Archives (418 pp, miniature score, 2009 - I think to make it briefer one would have to choose an Enescu 3 solution*)- New York Public Library system which I have occasional access to has that, and one newer recording (Russian Disc 1994) (and some LPs) of the work, but not, I think, the Downes... hrm... (edit: oh yes, they do. Good, good, good, good.)

* Enescu sym. 3, in its first full score issue, was published in this almost illegible miniature score, as I recall (from looking at it- NYPL again- awhile ago, not from third-hand rumor :) ) Briefer piece, but similarly huge orchestra...

In the previous thread someone said both Downes and Brostein were slightly cut.


No need to use a library though: http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.3,_Op.42_%27Ilya_Murometz%27_%28Gli%C3%A8re,_Reinhold%29

Since I don't have the Downes, my reason for using a library would be that the recording and score would be right there in front of me at the same lib - which fortunately I think they would be at the NYPL, given a couple of hours (which I think could be arranged sometime 2014...). I don't have portable (eg Blackberry, iPhone, ...) internet access, I should explain, nor any intention of printing out 438 pages and carrying them in my rucksack... (I live 5 hours by bus from that library! :D )

You can't take the CD out and play it at home?

I've been pondering doing it myself, but it's easy to get lost when score reading for 75 minutes...

Ah! Actually, Concertzender just broadcast Downes' Murometz today, and one can still hear it.  So the whole thing is moot... (the link can easily be websearched at their site or under today's (1/4, not 1/5)'s concertlistings...)

Quote... a fascinating article on Falletta and the new recording...

It quite whetted my appetite for hearing her recording with the Buffalo PO.

She just did a concert series here in Phoenix. Enescu Romanian Rhapsody 1, Ginastera Harp Concerto, Beethoven 5. Can she whip up a frenzy! The Beethoven I've heard in concert more times than I remember, but she made it thrillingly exciting, not neglecting the more subtle characteristics. The Enescu was hair-raising. I can't stand the Ginastera. Anyway, if she brings the same sense of excitement to the Gliere as she did in this concert, it will be something to look forward to.

I gather that Ilya Murometz conducted by Scherchen (through the LP I "learnt" -if I did- to know the work) has been re-released in Cd by ... Deutsche Gramophon. But one has to buy a huge box of 40 Cds "The Westminster Legacy" ( it may be seen in then D.G. site).

www.rediscovery.us (http://www.rediscovery.us)

If you go to the above link you can download it for free.
Tom

Hi there :-)
The Scherchen is for me too, the best and most "correct" version. And consider Westminster's excellent mono sonics of 1952! I have made my own clean digital transfer, incidentally, and copied it to my "Desert Island" iPod. The Downes version is also quite impressive and luscious. I also feel disappointed by Botstein - and Farberman is a total bore.
In other words, in my collection I have only so-called "complete" versions with: Scherchen - Farberman - Johanos - Talmi - Downes - Botstein - Golovchin - Rakhlin and, of course, a full score! All those old abridged versions on LP were thrown away long ago, after I had studied the score.

Oh, I just see than Naxos has released another Ilya Muromets' these days, with the Buffal Philharmonic conducted by JoAnn Falletta... Have we first woman conducting this epic?
http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.573161 (http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.573161)

I have a recording of Gliere Symphony 3   by the BBC Philharmonic with Vassily Sinaisky. My notes say it was originally broadcast from the Bridgewater Hall on 1 April 2005 - unless it's an April Fool's joke! - and runs for 78 minutes. I could try to get my head around uploading it if anyone is interested.

Hadrianus, I think the Talmi is not complete. It is only 66 minutes. Even Botstein, who races through it at breakneck pace, as if it were a race against death, still required a lot more time than that. I think the Golovchin is also not complete, but I am unable to compare the recording to the score.

Hi Amphissa
I may be wrong in calling some of the above mentioned recordings "complete", let's call them "almost complete". Still, they are not as disastrously cut like so many older ones which had to be done one one LP. Of course I could write an exact comparison with the score of each recording, but there are more important thinks in life to do, such as to listen and to enjoy the piece (that I may be allowed to perform or to record it is hopeless). Musicologists and critics have the right atittude and character for such analytical jobs.

Falletta's performance gets a 4-star rating in the Daily Telegraph Review of Feb 1st (maximum: 5-stars).

Anxious to hear it.
Tom

QuoteFalletta's performance gets a 4-star rating in the Daily Telegraph Review of Feb 1st (maximum: 5-stars).

I received my copy from Naxos and after careful listening have to disagree with the Daily Telegraph Review. While I still prefer  the Scherchen recording for overall performance the digital sound of Falletta and the BPO certainly enhance her performance.

Tom

The Falletta recording is very well played, but a bit too rushy and its Romanticism gets lost. I also miss the Russian flavour... Am I wrong by saying this? At least the sound engineers haven't done a sonic spectacular, but respected a natural orchestra balance.

I have listened to Falletta's version once in order to decide whether I should buy the disc or not,
but despite the low price I've been so unimpressed/disappointed that I refrained from purchasing it.

At the moment my favourite version is the live recording with Järvi in our downloads section
provided by britishcomposer.

At long last I received by copy of the new Naxos Ilya - and I have to say I'm a little disappointed. It certainly is a step up from the earlier Marco Polo/Naxos with Donald Johanos. But Downes still rules the roost as far as I'm concerned.

No small reason is the recorded sound. It's not clear and vibrant. The fault is the recording venue and you can hear the problem at the end of the first movement - the long reverb in the hall might sound great if you're there - but it causes problems in recordings where the sound becomes a blurry mess. Orchestral detail is lost in the haze. Would Blu-ray make a difference? I don't know. But Chandos got better sound, and so did Farberman's team. Try the brass chorale half-way thru the first movement: the articulation is muddy. The contrabassoon in the 2nd seems behind the scene. The percussion sounds like they played in a different room.

The tempos are faster than Gliere may have written, and mostly I'm ok with that. One place that I really think misfires is the opening. At the quicker pace all the brooding atmosphere seems missing. Then, the conductor takes some blame: where's the thrust and drama? I missed the sharp edges needed in the "battle" scenes. Ultimately, I missed a sense of a great, epic drama being told. There was no cathartic ending.

Maybe it's all Gliere's fault and no matter how hard the musicians and recording team try, this thing just can't be captured on a recording. I won't give up though. Hopefully, Gergiev and the LSO or Jurowski and the LPO will give it a shot. Or even Muti and Chicago.

Today I gave this recording a third listen, this time with a surround sound system and used some processing to get 6 channel surround and a subwoofer. Cranking the volume way up made a huge difference. Now the recording has more impact. Some of the wind writing becomes much clearer, the bass drum has more impact, the sizzle on the cymbals can be heard. The contra solos in the second movement have more presence. My first listen was with a 2-channel system, the second listen with a very high quality pair of headphones with vacuum tube amplification. The home theatre system made this much more enjoyable! The volume must also be high to give the recording a chance to bloom. So, even though there aren't enough complete Il'yas out there:

Downes is still #1
Falletta #2
Botstein #3
Golovchin #4
Johanos #5
Farberman #6

The only reason I leave Scherchen off the list is the mono sound and a scrappier orchestra. I'm sure he didn't have a lot of rehearsal time, and it shows.

So, if you try the new Naxos, blast your neighbors out and you'll love it.

You're right. We need a top-flight conductor and orchestra - not to mention recording team.

Thanks for the top notch analysis of the recording. I still like the Scherchen recording. Yes the mono really dates it but it has something the others don't have. The Chandos is the best sounding.
Tom

Watched a British 1933 film "The Ghoul" and the soundtrack made excellent use of Gliere"s Symphony No, 3. The percussion was used quite well.
Tom

I completely agree with all those who have pointed out the flaws of the Falletta recording. Bravo sdtom! And, as I said in another post, it's a rushy thing without any sense for epic and Russian breath! Suppose even Gerghiev would not underatnd the piece. Incidentally, I was also disappinted by Falletta's Respighi CD on Naxos...

Perhaps Mr. Haub is right and this doesn't transfer well to CD. Would love to hear it in person sometime.
Tom

Again I listened to both the Falletta and Scherchen and upon yet further examination I can see that his comment about not enough rehearsal time is a valid one. I can also accept that the Falletta is rushed in spots. I guess it is the tempo I like in the Scherchen.

Enough analyzing of this work for me I'm back to listening to the 55CD Tchaikovsky box.
Tom

I was listening to a radio show last night called the Green Hornet and part of the music was from the fourth movement of our beloved Ilya Murometz. Perhaps this piece is far more popular than we realize?
Tom

When you think about it, the Gliere was fairly popular and well-known to older generations, so it's use in a soundtrack shouldn't surprise us. In the 78 era, because of the expense of making/buying the heavy disks, most of the albums produced were of what we now would recognize as standard repertoire. Tchaik 4, 5, 6, Beethoven, Brahms, Dvorak 7, 8, 9, and so forth. It wasn't cost effective or prudent to record obscure music that no one would buy. So that there were at least 2 78 versions (Stokowski & Desormiere) is really remarkable. Some names you wouldn't ever find on 78's: Raff, Spohr, Reinecke, Goetz. The Russian repertoire was limited to the standard stuff we know today. I doubt there was a 78 cycle of Rubinstein symphonies. So that the Gliere somehow showed up in that era is means that it had something going for it that it stood out above the crowd.

Raff was, however, on an (well, 2 sides or 3...) acoustic, before 78s (a movement from the Schöne Müllerin Quartet). As was Rubinstein (the slow movement, I think, of Op.17/2, from the same quartet- Flonzaleys, might have been, wouldn't surprise me...? I forget.) (Ok, irrelevant. Sorry)
And are you sure there were no recordings at all of Raff's Cavatine or other well-known shorter works in the 78 era? I am a little surprised there.

You're right: Raff's Cavatina and several of Rubinstein piano works (Melody in F) showed up on 78s. I was thinking in terms of large orchestral works, symphonies in particular. The Kalinnikov 1st was also on 78s. The major orchestras used to program it, and nowadays even the smaller regional and amateur orchestras seldom play it - maybe this generation of conductors don't even know it.

As to the Kalinnikov, you may well be right (though I see it's still played once in awhile- as recently as this February, when Vanska conducted it with the LPO. Ok, not younger generation, though...

I have been away from the forum for a long time but seeing this I have no hesitation in recommending the recording by Nathan Rakhlin with the Moscow RTV Orchestra. It is by far the most exciting version in my opinion but don't get the poorly recorded version on Russian Disc, instead go for the far superior version on Bearac Reissues (BRC-3218).

As I recall the Rakhlin has cuts, but it's still a great performance.

Good that the Rakhlin version has been reissued (on Russian Disc, not on Melodyia). The cuts in this version are still acceptable, compared to other mutilations. I still always return listening to the old Scherchen version and the quite convincining one by Edward Downes. The Falletta one - still inferior to the Golovchion version (also on Russian Disc) has become, in the menatime, a gift for a friend :-)

The Scherchen even though the age of it shows is superior.

... forthcoming from the Belgrade Philharmonic (Serbia) under conductor Gabriel Feltz on the DreyerGaido label:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/sinfonie-3-in-b-moll-op-42/hnum/8774745 (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/sinfonie-3-in-b-moll-op-42/hnum/8774745)

TT for the CD is 83:13 (23:27; 25:26; 7:42; 26:36). I wonder whether this will be uncut?

Well it's the right length to be.

Let's hope it's a more sensitive interpretation than Mrs. Falletta's. For me, the "classic" are still Scherchen's and Rachlin's (the latter not all too complete, as far as I remember). And it's all compressed into one 80+ CD!

Always a good thing that the Gliere 3rd is newly recorded - it means that at least someone is still interested. But it's one of those scores that needs a top orchestra and conductor to play it for all it's worth. The Falletta was ok, but like Botstein, too reserved. There are two living conductors who I wish would commit it to disk: Neeme Jarvi and Valery Gergiev. And an orchestra that really has time to work on it and polish it. That's the problem with Farberman and Botstein: as great as those London orchestras are, at times a lack of rehearsal time is all too apparent. I'll look forward to this new release - and pray its worth it. Interestingly, it's in SACD which seems to be going away rapidly. Should do a Blu-Ray disk like Decca/DG is doing for older recordings. In the meanwhile, Scherchen and Downes will do.

My favorite recording is:

GLIERE - Symphony No. 3 – USSR Radio & TV Large Symphony Orchestra – Nathan Rakhlin (Melodiya LP), not the CD version which had serious tape deterioration.

You are right Ken, I also prefer the LP version!

Here something about the new recording:
https://bachtrack.com/de_DE/review-gliere-ilya-muromets-feltz-belgrade-philharmonic-march-2018

And I have just re-listeend to the (live, unfortunately never issued on CD) 1999 Cologne performance with Neene Järvi. A really super interpretation too!

,,, and now to Gabriel Feltz's new recording of "Ilya Murometz", on Dreyer Gaido label:
This is only my personal opinion:
It is excellently played (and recorded), but gives the impression of a somehow "dry objectivity", compromising the overall melodic aspect of the work. Tempi are overall fast. As Mrs. Falletta's version, this one is a good "technical", but not enough "Russian" version, just in the style most younger conductors work today. The first and fourth movements are played with a too strong, almost Prussian rhythmic emphasis. This is a work needing to be always fanatically carried forward, by singing out themes more and more while building up climaxes - and not indulging too much in lyrical passages (as Feltz does in the second movement), otherwise it loses the overall "bow". The biggest climaxes are loud, but they still do not flame! The third movement sounds like a nice (and rather rushed) ballet number à la Glazunov - a bit more rhythmic sense would have helped instead, after all it describes a sumptuous feast. Still, the climax describing the collapse of the palace is effectively done.
The most convincing movement is the final one, although in here too, rhythms are, again, too strongly emphasized and some passages are definitely too fast. The single fanfare episodes in the whole work, based on chant motifs are not chanted "Russian like" as they should. But perhaps I am a too old-fashioned-Russian-music-oriented guy?
That's why I think that this work needs a big sensual or even "erotic" approach!
Gabriel Felz can also be heard/seen in a DVD of a (semi/mis-) staged version of Respighi's "Belkis, Regina di Saba" with a female (instead of a male) narrator, reciting also the stage instructions for the ballet (!), not the just few passages Respighi had foreseen. Here too, I missed all the "interpretative" things I miss in the Glière. This does not mean that Feltz isn't an excellent conductor and that he hasn't rehearsed well enough with his Beoghradska filharmonija for this CD. In his liner notes, Mr. Feltz writes that "it is time for a renaissance" of this work – as if this would have not been happened yet!
It's a recommendable recording for the non-Scherchen, non-Downes and non-Rahklin fans. Forghet the Farberman, in there you get bored and you fall asleep.
Again, I recommend everybody to listen to the splendid (online only) version by Neeme Järvi, this is really how it should be done!
If anybody wants a "audio file version" in 4 tracks of this, please write me a personal message. I've also amended a little technical disturbance as far it was possible.

Thanks for that expert view of the new recording. Very instructive! And an insight into what is often the problem with modern performances, i.e. commendable technical expertise, but insufficient 'Engagement', as the Germans say, i.e. commitment to the idiom of the music.

Yes, thank you indeed for that review. I began with the Farbermann LP set, which was the only version I could get all those years ago, and always felt there was a great work being lost along the way, and in due course I bought the Naxos recording. In light of your comments it's obviously time to invest in Jarvi!  But Adriano, before I do, tell me, in your opinion, is it really a great work as I hoped, or is it simply insufficiently creative to justify its length? I don't think music commentators have ever been enthusiastic about it.  ???

I don't care about certain music commentators - or musicologists. In my opinion, it is a really great, exciting and fascinating work. Of course, one must love Russian music and be a sensitive/emotional character. The musical built-up, the dramatism, the instrumentation - it's all super. If you love heroic-dramatic program symphonies à la "Manfred", "Kullervo" and "Sintram", you are in the right place. If great conductors like Scherchen, Stokovski, Fricsay, Rabinovitch, Downes, Rachlin etc. liked and recorded it, there must be something good about it. And I still cannot understand why Bernstein and Karajan did not record it; they would have delivered top performances. But they also did never record the "Manfred Symphony" On the other hand they did not hesitate recording works of minor quality, in comparison!

Semloh: I love this symphony: it has so much to offer, it's so atmospheric. I've known it for over 50 years and I'm pretty sure I own every version, old and new, ever released on CD. But, being honest, that last movement is the problem - there are parts of it (the battle scenes) that just go on and on and become tiresome. Even the best recordings struggle to maintain momentum. As much as I detest cuts and other tampering with scores, in the finale some pruning might be a good idea. The first three movements are wonderful as is. Another problem is that no recording could possible capture the full range of dynamics this huge score presents. You would think that modern, digital, even SACD recordings would, but they don't. When I put a version in, I turn the volume up quite high or use headphones. Someone needs to do this score on Blu Ray which presents the best possible sound easily available today.

I would also like to recommend to locate the old Yoav Talmi disk made with the San Diego Symphony. Try Ebay. Yes, it's cut, mostly in the finale. The orchestra plays as well as any other and the early (1988) digital Surround-Sound is superb and most recievers can still decode that format. His timing compared to the complete Downes:

1. Talmi: 21, Downes: 23
2. Talmi: 18, Downes: 21
3. Talmi: 7, Downes: 7
4. Talmi: 20, Downes: 26

Thank you so much for those generous responses. I feel that you've vindicated my initial judgement. :)

I love this symphony too - I heard the Downes version first and I was immediately hooked.  I was on a flight from London to Chicago in 2004 and had it on loop the whole time - you can work out how many replays that must have been!

Coming back to the "old" Melodiya recording of "Ilya Muromets" by Natan Rakhlin:
The 1st, the 2nd and the 4th movement have cuts of approx. 2-3 minutes each, but they are very intelligent ones.
This recording is superbly conducted and the orchestra is, of course, a much better one than Scherchen's. There is another surplus: it's the better one of the only two "true Russian" recordings and its sound balance is excellent.
I was never happy with that "Russian Disc" CD transfer ,made in 1996, so I have made a new one myself, using an exellent pressing of the 1975 CBS Columbia LP version. I have done this from a professional turntable with direct digital output - connected to a digital hard disc recorder. It needed some discreet de-clicking and de-crackling, in order to keep the original brilliance - and that is all.
There is an offer of 111 Pounds on Amazon Marketplace for that "Russian Disc" CD version! Anyone who may be interested to hear this private re-mastering, can write me a message.

I kept that old Rakhlin LP set in it's Columbia incarnation and haven't ever compared it to the Russian Disc release. That could peel paint off the walls, the trumpets are so strident. But there's more than cuts that are "wrong". At one of my favorite passages in the entire work, the marvelous brass chorale in the first movement, around 11:15, Rakhlin deemed it necessary to add a chime part to end each phrase. To be honest, if Gliere had written it I'd probably have no problem with it - but he didn't!

111 pounds for the Russian Disc? Would anyone really pay that? Heck, I'll sell mine to anyone who wants it for 15!

OK Martin...
That extra chimes' section is part of a typical "Russian percussion complex". You can find extra (non-original) percussion in quite a few scores, as, for example, in Scriabin's Symphonies and Tchaikovsky's "Manfred". See also the Glockenspiel in Rachmaninov's First Symphony (Ormandy used it, for example, in his 1966 recording). Parts which were not written at all, but do not ruin the original. Golovanov also liked such "extras".
In my opinion, those soft "Muromets" bells give quite an interesting effect. OK for that missing brass chorale, but there are enough similar chorales in the work :-). As far as the trumpets are concerned (after all, there are 4 of them, against 8 horns!), I don't find them too strident; they do not disturb me (I am used to the typical sound of Russian orchestras and recordings).
Sorry, but mine is just a personal opinion and not a musicologist's.
And, last but not least, one has to admit that Rakhlin's is a magnificent interpretation!

Yes, it is magnificent. Full-blooded for sure. That strident sound though I think is more an artifact of Melodiya recording methods than anything else. That's quite interesting about the Russian percussion complex...I've never heard that before, but come to think of it, there's a recording of In the Steppes of Central Asia someone did that adds percussion - most memorably sleigh bells. Maybe that also explains that unwritten - and deplorable - bass drum whack added to the last note in the first movement of the Rachmaninoff 2nd.

Quite so, Martin. Don't forget that in the Glière, 4 trumpets have sometimes fortissimo unisoni - doubled by trombones in lower octaves and filled-up by horn harmonies. Such exciting bass writing! Strident brass is not only a Melodiya feature: It must be in the Russian genes... I had to struggle against (too) strident brass whilst working with the Moscow Symphony in persona, but I just adore it. The only thing which drowe me mad sometimes is that they had Horns of inferior manufacture, so they farted a bit too much... But for my Brun recordings I could hire some excellent Bolshoi hornists.

What about this version of the Rachlin recording: https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B004REB4AA/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp

It's a re-licensing job. Depends what they've done with the sound - you'd have to download it to find out.

Thanks der79sebas.
As far as I can hear from the samples, it sounds good, perhaps a bit too much filtered... In this case I will have to withdraw my offer...

I've downloaded it from Amazon.co.uk. It's very brightly lit, but perfectly acceptable to my ears. By the way, the orchestra is the Moscow RTV Orchestra - although I never know which orchestra is playing under which name!

That said, I'm look forward to hearing the music in up-to-date sound. My copy of Feltz is on its way...

Let's hope that Melodiya will do a re-issue of the Rakhlin one day... Their remasterings are excellent. The Russian Disc label (they started as a US Company) has done quite a few not always satisfactory remasterings in the past - and some of them were not always authorized licenses. The older, much more interesting titles are no more available, but all recent ones from the "Russian and World Music CD DVD Shop"
http://www.russiancdshop.com/music.php?zobraz=details&id=29051&lang=de

FBerwald asks:

hadrianus, could you elaborate on why you didn't like Falletta's  "Ilya Muromets" - I haven't heard this and I'm curious.

As far as I remember, Alan, this was the subject of an earlier "Murometz" posting, just at the time the Falletta recording was released.

Thanks, yes. I have merged the threads involved.

FBerwald: Please find the discussion of Falletta's recording earlier in this newly merged thread.

I'd say the Falletta is a fine performance of a piece that, frankly, needs the kitchen sink thrown at it (as far as commitment is concerned). In other words, it demands more than a fine performance. It needs the sort of slavonic intensity that few conductors really understand or can command.

I'm now blown away by the Rakhlin performance. Wow: it has real Russian spirit...

Thanks, Alan, for your opinion - using that unique English expression having but a poor German translation of "alles Mögliche versuchen um..."  8)

I'm afraid my anti-virus software won't allow me to access these files.

... and my own "brain hard disc" tells me too, that this may be a dangerous link... Anyway, I made a mistake by offering my own digital transfer in here, not knowing that Amazon offers its own. Next time I keep such kind of transfers just for myself :-)

Ken's upload of the Rakhlin performance has been moved to the Downloads Board here.

Moderator's Note: It has been removed from the Downloads Board as it is commercially available. MT.

Wow, I can just imagine that a full-blooded no-holds-barred concert performance of Gliere's Sym 3 Ilya Murometz preceded by an equally luxuriant premiere and sensuous rendition of Jaroslav Kricka's Bluebird Overture as the warm-up prelude item would make a most astoundingly titillating and unprecedentedly aural sonic treat. Now that's what I'd call imaginative repertoire programming.  :P  ;D

To my ears Ken's upload sounds identical to the commercially available download.

In all modesty: still considering it was done from an LP and not from a master tape, my transfer has more bass and mid-range presence and reflects much more the original spacious balance and depht. Groove noise is minimal, even while listening with earphones. Once I have enough time I will also do a transfer of the EMI pressing, in order to see what's coming out :-) I haven't listened it since a long time, and it was bougth before the Columbia CBS album. I may have had a good reason for ordering this last one too... Perhaps because it had one movement per side and wider grooves. The EMI has The Bronze Horseman Suite on side 4 (conducted by Algis Zuraitis).

Quoteit's probably the best out there until Sony releases the Ormandy recording he made for RCA. (There is a Japanese release.)

I've ordered the Ormandy from Japan. Yes, I know it's cut, but I couldn't resist hearing the Philadelphia Orchestra in this music.

I remember I liked the Ormandy. I actually had all LP versions of this Symphony. Stokowski, Fricsay, Rachmilovich etc. And, later on, all CDs. But then I sold my LP collection and kept only the Rakhlin. Of the Scherchen I had already done a private digital transfer before Westmister's (its official version of can also be downloaded from Naxos). So now I only have the Golovchin, Downes, Farberman and Feltz CDs. I gave away the other versions; most probably the next ones leaving will be the Falletta and that (the most) boring performance by Farberman. I am still madly in love with this Symphony - after 50 years when I first heard it (I think it was the Fricsay)! To record it myself belongs to Utopia, of course, but, would I win a lottery, I would do it - together with Respighi's complete "Belkis" and Herrmann's "Wuthering Heights" :-)

Well, the Ormandy arrived today - all the way from Japan in four days! Of course, its great glory is the playing of the Philadelphia Orchestra; but the drawback, as we know, is that 20+ minutes of music are missing. However, I also bought this to hear what a great conductor in this repertoire - which I take Ormandy to have been - makes of the music. And he's wonderful - no holding back here; no playing it safe (he doesn't have to with his magnificent Philadelphians); and above all fabulous colour and richness of sonority without the 'glare and blare' of a Russian orchestra of that period (1971).

So: shame about the cuts. But what a disc!

My original exposure to Ilja Murometz was the Ormandy LP. I loved the full-blooded exoticism of both the music and the peerless performance of the Philadelphians. Of course, I was ignorant of the cuts way back then. Somehow, none of the CD replacements I've bought over the years have cut the mustard, despite having fewer, or no, cuts, So maybe I'll invest in the Ormandy transfer, it would be wonderful to hear his performance again.

Here it is:
https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%82%B0%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A8%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB-%E4%BA%A4%E9%9F%BF%E6%9B%B2%E7%AC%AC3%E7%95%AA%E3%80%8C%E3%82%A4%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%BB%E3%83%A0%E3%83%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A1%E3%83%84%E3%80%8D-%E3%83%95%E3%82%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%83%87%E3%83%AB%E3%83%95%E3%82%A3%E3%82%A2%E7%AE%A1%E5%BC%A6%E6%A5%BD%E5%9B%A3-%E3%82%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%B3%E3%83%87%E3%82%A3-%E3%83%A6%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B8%E3%83%B3/dp/B0000QWYSA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1543051914&sr=8-1&keywords=gliere+Ormandy (https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%82%B0%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A8%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB-%E4%BA%A4%E9%9F%BF%E6%9B%B2%E7%AC%AC3%E7%95%AA%E3%80%8C%E3%82%A4%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%BB%E3%83%A0%E3%83%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A1%E3%83%84%E3%80%8D-%E3%83%95%E3%82%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%83%87%E3%83%AB%E3%83%95%E3%82%A3%E3%82%A2%E7%AE%A1%E5%BC%A6%E6%A5%BD%E5%9B%A3-%E3%82%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%B3%E3%83%87%E3%82%A3-%E3%83%A6%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B8%E3%83%B3/dp/B0000QWYSA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1543051914&sr=8-1&keywords=gliere+Ormandy)

Having had this recording as one of my very first LPs, a gift from my grandparents in the 1980s mostly because of my first name. So although nostalgia plays a role, I have honestly found (at the risk of being thrown out of the village covered in pitch and feathers) that the (well-chosen) cuts served the listening experience rather well; the full version has always seemed overly self-indulgent to me, and stretched its material excessively thinly.

Thanks, Alan.

Hmmm...I made my own LP to CD transfer of that. If you're interested.

I absolutely see where Adriano is coming from in his assessment of Feltz's performance. It's very well played and recorded, but comparison with, say, Rakhlin reveals a severe lack of 'slavonic fire' (for want of a better description). This Russian Bear should roar; here it's merely clearing its throat - but the roar never comes...

Thanks, Alan, for supporting my opinion :-)
It's a really great performance. Of course, I still remain faithful to Scherchen, who knew very well how to make music sound passionate. And he had a good flair for Russian music.
Incidentally, Fritz Brun liked Scherchen very much; those 3 Symphonies he premiered, made, apparently, a great impression. And Scherchen was so modest to "confess" some years later (in a letter to a musicologist) that he still had a bad conscience for having performed Brun's Fifth not as good as it deserved!

Here a video of the first Swiss performance of Glière's "Ilya Murometz":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MClLBA5o1w&feature=youtu.be
It's the complete version!

And here some additional material (interview and rehearsal excerpts)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BS5gYxWgHc&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKQWsWkf76g&list=PLsnosMvGMfGIbrLZ0HQzN5pIyL9X97rnr

I love how this is a piece that we keep returning and returning to.  It really is a magnificent work.

Thanks, Adriano! This'd be worth uploading to UC. Any offers?

Yuri Simonov is one of those conductors we don't hear much of. He was assistant to Mravinsky in Leningrad. Do you know him, Adriano?

I'm going to make a copy of it for myself, so I'll do the job. It's a fine performance by the way.

Oh, great. Thanks, Mark.

I never had the pleasure of making Maestro's Simonov acquaintance; I admire him very much. My very first Bolshoi attendance was a December 1994 performance of "Boris Godunov", and I have the impression that Simonov conducted. Most documents of my "legacy" is already stored at the Zurich Central Library, so I cannot confirm this.
Simonov made splendid Melodiya recordings, as, for example, Glinka's "Ruslan and Lyudmila" and Schedrin's ballet "Anna Karenina". But more CDs were recorded in England with the RPO.
I am being told that he had always wanted to conduct/record Glière's "Murometz". It sounds almost grotesque that this occasion would have been given after so many years just by a Swiss Conservatoire Orchestra!
His timings are 25:41 - 22:48 - 08:08 and 28:46. I've just made an audio too. The original tape is of much better quality than the one of this Youtube video.
I've had lunch today with this orchestra's manager, who, incidentally is a member of the Sarastro Quartet (string quartets by Juon and Weingartner on cpo) and also a great admirer of Fritz Brun's music :-)

If your audio is of much better quality than I can record from YouTube, than it would be much better if you uploaded it. I'll PM you about this, Adriano.

One should be careful uploading copyrighted music in a forum like UC with many members. The Youtube video is an official upload - to which composer's copyright fee is paid. Private uploadings of copyrighted music are considered as transgression; they are only allowed withing a small circle of relatives of friends.

Fair enough, but I see no copyright notice on the YouTube page.

The music of all composers (and their arrangers) are automatically copyrighted till 70 years after their death(s). This has not to be mentioned, it's an old law (Berne Convention of 1886, revisions followed after the 2nd WW and, lately, the USA finally joined in too). YouTube agreed with the EU already in 1993, but is was not working properly, so many complaints started - and new laws were issued this year upon pressure by the EU Parliament).
Our "Glière" case has (so far?) nothing to do with the remaining "neigbouring rights" (orchestra, conductor, label royalties etc.) - which are always considered separately, if they were agreed between the posting's responsibles and the artists involved (On my 49 CDs I do not get a Cent as far as that is concerned).
Since it has been at long last possible to obtain from YouTube that they respect copyrights, private persons also should be fair from their own side. The European Union struggled for quite a long time to win this cause.

That I'd forgotten. No UC post of the audio from this YT post, then, but I do recommend the performance.

Is that some Swiss Youth Orchestra? Very young players, and what a fine performance!

Quote from: hadrianus on Monday 09 December 2019, 20:44
The music of all composers (and their arrangers) are automatically copyrighted till 70 years after their death(s). This has not to be mentioned, it's an old law (Berne Convention of 1886, revisions followed after the 2nd WW and, lately, the USA finally joined in too). YouTube agreed with the EU already in 1993, but is was not working properly, so many complaints started - and new laws were issued this year upon pressure by the EU Parliament).

Well yes and no. I know you've mentioned the fact they offer music that's still copyrighted in Europe is why you seem to hate the IMSLP but Gliere's 3rd is very much in the public domain in the US, Canada and Japan (and I'm sure a lot of other places). It's a bit dishonest to paint the above as the whole truth when it's not. Canada/Japan it's death + 50, and US it's 95 years after publication.

If the mods don't want it here, fine whatever, but the issue isn't so black and white as you say it.

Thanks TerraEpon for considering my posting as "a bit dishonest". I have the impression that you mix-up composer's (author's) coyright with music publishing copyright laws.

I read as follows:
"Copyright protection generally lasts for 70 years after the death of the author. If the work was a "work for hire", then copyright persists for 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever is shorter. For works created before 1978, the copyright duration rules are complicated. However, works created before 1924 (other than sound recordings) have made their way into the public domain.
For works published or registered before 1978, the maximum copyright duration is 95 years from the date of publication, if copyright was renewed during the 28th year following publication. Copyright renewal has been automatic since the Copyright Renewal Act of 1992."

See also:
http://www.floridalawreview.com/2010/michael-w-carroll-the-struggle-for-music-copyright/

And, to learn that already Bach, Abel and Hummel struggled for such a cause:
https://digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1031&context=wps
(page 942)


Now concerning works (and not their publications, like scores, sound carriers etc.):
"For works created before 1978, but not published or registered before 1978, the standard §302 copyright duration of 70 years from the author's death also applies. Prior to 1978, works had to be published or registered to receive copyright protection. Upon the effective date of the 1976 Copyright Act (which was January 1, 1978) this requirement was removed and these unpublished, unregistered works received protection. However, Congress intended to provide an incentive for these authors to publish their unpublished works. To provide that incentive, these works, if published before 2003, would not have their protection expire before 2048."

The thing is an international agreement:
"The Berne Convention is an international treaty standardizing copyright protection since 1886. In 1994 a General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) was signed by 117 countries, and the World Trade Organization (WTO) was created in Geneva, Switzerland, to enforce compliance with the agreement. GATT includes a section covering copyrights called the Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property (TRIPS). US law was amended to be essentially consistent with GATT by the Uruguay Round Agreements Act (URAA) in 1994 and the Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act in 1998.  Despite GATT, copyright protection varies greatly from country to country, and extreme caution must be exercised on all  international usage of any intellectual property.
You should use a public domain composition only if you have proof of public domain from a legitimate source.  If you do not have a legitimate source in your possession, there is no way you can be certain that the music you use is in the public domain.  A legitimate source is a tangible copy of the work with a copyright date old enough to be in the public domain. Sources are almost always either an original or a copy of a book or sheet music. You cannot just "know" a song is in the public domain or just "see" the name of the song in a book, on a list, or even on this web site.  An attorney will tell you that there really is no such thing as absolute "proof of public domain". But you must protect yourself with the best "proof" you can find.  If you do not do your own research and obtain a legitimate public domain copy of each work you use, you can easily make errors which could result in your having to pay substantial royalties."

In any case: One has to clearly understand the distinction between the public domain status of a work (its publication) and the public domain status of the source of the work (the composition).

As far as my attitude is concerned, "honesty" means 100% respect towards the product of an artist and its copyright. As a composer and conductor myself, I am proud of never having ceased struggling for this cause. And, since it is well-known that 70 years after the author's death are recognised in most countries, I don't care about doubtful special cases. Music (like other arts) is a worldwide affair, therefore it should be protected the same way in all over the world.

"Thanks" to the social media, we have landed now in an epoch where everybody thinks he can get art (and the media they have been made available on) just for free. They don't realise what it costs (spiritually and economically) to create it.

Paul Sacher (who became a multimillionaire after having married a industrial's daughter) has still the reputation of a great and generous sponsor, for having commissioned works by many composers. He used to pay but a few hundred Francs for a composition, demanding that he would premiere it and that its autograph would become his propriety. He also tried to get additional copyrights. But he never cared about financing the publication of those works; he was just a greedy collector - and a mediocre conductor. Today these autographs are preserved as in a refrigerator - and are accessible only to some happy few. One of his illegitimate sons presides the Sacher Foundation, he decides whether an interested person is allowed or not to consult his treasures.


A rather bizarre anecdote: I think it happened in 1974 or 1979, at the coccasion of Karl Böhm's 80th or 85th Birthday Celebration in Salzburg Christa Ludwig, after performing a song which Bernstein had composed for this occasion, hands Böhm the manuscript over as a gift. Böhm's first question is: "Will I also get the copyright?"

@ MartinH
The orchestra is clearly mentioned at the very beginning of the video. And, even more in detail, in the final credits.

QuoteIs that some Swiss Youth Orchestra?

As Adriano indicates, the orchestra is named in the credits:

10th Orchestra Academy of Zurich University of the Arts (ZHdK) and the Haut école de musique of Geneva-Neuchâtel (HEM).

Apparently IMSLP's solution to the problem of the differing copyright laws in the US, Europe, and Canada was good enough to satisfy Universal Edition and get the c-and-d order lifted, but hey, what's the opinion of a  publisher of international standing that's been around since 1900/1 matter? (And their solution, by the way, involves several lines of defense. The site takes the possibility of being sued again very seriously. I do not advise our hosting (the recording of) Ilya Murometz here- or quite a few things we do _already_ host- but I am _quite_ fine with IMSLP hosting (the score of) it (with its current restrictions- which should be needless to say, but I suppose nothing is "needless to say"), and Brian's first symphony (US-only), and etc., etc., etc.)

(PS scores and recordings have rather different laws applying to them, at least in the US; afaik most recordings will still be copyright for quite some time, I gather, older ones if they have been properly renewed. The oft-cited 1923-now-24-soon-to-be-25-etc date for scores is, iirc, a date such that scores given their first US publication before that date (not "first published" - specifically "first given US publication", with ©, etc) can no longer be renewed now. (If not renewed in the regular 27? 28? year cycle at some point between then and now, they tend to lose copyright -anyway- - the onus is actually on the publication and publisher to _maintain_ the copyright, for works first-published before a certain date or first published between that date and 197x but improperly published (no proper copyright registration on score or found @ Library of Congress when requested (the online one is warned to be incomplete.)

Obviously, I am not a copyright lawyer (or any other kind) (and the lawyers I know specialize in other issues- no, not criminal law, that wasn't about to become a standup joke.)

At the risk of expanding this conversation beyond the remit of the subject, may I make one observation.  Whilst I am passionate in the defence of copyright so that it may benefit a composer, or his/her immediate heirs, or a performer or performers, I get really (and I think justifiably) annoyed with publishers who, having allowed a work to go out of print, refuse to make a copy, for which one is of course prepared to pay, on request by an individual for private use. True, this happens infrequently, but it has happened.

As far as publisher's behaviour towards copyright is concerned, I fully agree with you, Gareth Vaughan. I had to experience various grotesque - and absolutely unacceptable - situations, which even can be considered as obstructive towards music.

Quoteobstructive towards music.

That is precisely what it is.

QuoteI get really (and I think justifiably) annoyed with publishers who, having allowed a work to go out of print, refuse to make a copy, for which one is of course prepared to pay, on request by an individual for private use. True, this happens infrequently, but it has happened.

This happens all too frequently! There's a lot of great music that is OOP and unless you have good contacts with orchestra librarians, obtaining scores and parts for performance is often futile. Here's a list of just a few things I've tried to acquire for performance recently:

1. Victor Herbert: Festival March.
2. Robert Farnon: Westminster Waltz.
3. Albert Ketelbey: Cockney Suite.

Renting music is even becoming a challenge, and the hallowed Fleisher Library in Philadelphia won't loan some items out any more because a) the parts are in extremely fragile condition and b) the work is still under copyright and they can't make photocopies available. Insane.

OK, I think we're really off topic here. Please start another thread if you wish to continue, otherwise it's back to Ilya Muromets.

I'm surprised the first Swiss performance of this piece was just in the past few years. Many Russians were expats in Switzerland around this time (including Scriabin), so I am not sure why this monumental work was neglected for so long!

There may be a simple reason, Zusac: in the 1950s for example, we had a similar anti-Russian hysteria over here as in other countries (France and Germany behaved more progressively). And this even later: in 1965, after corresponding with the Tchaikovsky House in Klin, they had sent me over some LPs as a gift. I remember Tchaikovsky's "Hamlet" (conducted by Ivanov) figured amongst them. I was 21 years old and had to show up at the customs office, where I was thoroughly interrogated. My parents were informed by the police. My father reprimanded me harshly (I had left home already since one year); they thought that the Russians were going to use me as a spy - that eventually I would land up in prison. Fahter was a well-known military instructor... Grotesquely enough, in the 1970s, he went into diplomacy and became a Swiss military attachee in Moscow! He lived there for 7 years and (as I learned later from one of his colleagues) took frequently advantage of the possibility to smuggling foreign currency through the diplomat's courier.
My parent's Moscow stay has, incidentally, nothing to do with my own "Moscow connection" as a conductor: I had broken with them 15 years earlier.
But I think this experience consolidated my intense love for Russian music.
In those years, composers à la Rimsky and Tchaikovsky - and the emigrated ones - were considered as harmless in Switzerland; but imagine Glière, whom Stalin has nominated a "People's Artist"and who presided the URSS Composer's Committee! Shostakowitch was quite a risk; even to Fritz Brun, who in December 1937 conducted Shostakovich's First Symphony in Berne.
Today many things have changed. Switzerland has become one of the preferred shopping countries for the rich Russians - and we court them. On Saturday mornings, if you go to a Zurich department store's café, you hear more Russian conversations than German and English ones. And the Banks are just round the corner. Many Russians have rented luxury apartments. Fritz Brun's villa in the Ticino (Southern Switzerland), for example, is now surrounded by some decadently-styled Russian mansions - which mostly remain closed all the time.

In the meantime I could find out that the music of "Ilya Murometz" was used in a 1945 (black-and-white) documentary feature entitled "The Fall of Berlin", which was directed by Yuri Reisman. A Russian army camerateam was responsible for firsthand footage. This film has nothing to do with the 1949 colour feature with Shostakovitch's music. A copy is on the way to me, so I will be able to check the soundtrack. Maybe this reveals that a Russian mono recording of Glière's Symphony was already around by then...

  @MartinH

Yes, they (Fleisher) said I would have to make my own copies... and then some items they would not lend... I would have to come there to copy them....uggg

@dhibbard
Apparently there is a copy on the way to me (from another source). As soon as it arrives, I will let you know, so I can make a copy for you.

QuoteHere's a list of just a few things I've tried to acquire for performance recently:

1. Victor Herbert: Festival March.
2. Robert Farnon: Westminster Waltz.
3. Albert Ketelbey: Cockney Suite.

There used to be a set of parts for Ketelbey's "Cockney Suite" in the Birmingham Conservatoire - and they used to lend them through inter-library loan. Whether they still do or not, I don't know. And you may have already tried this avenue and hit a dead end.

     @hadrianus

Yes.... thank you....  sorry I have had too much wine tonight.... this CoVid-19 issue has made me buy too much wine..  I now have a huge stash of red and white wine to keep me and the wife happy!!    Ha!!     I am resorting to listenting to Mozart (best of on Naxos) to keep everyone happy!!

@Hadrianus - do you mean this Soviet documentary "Berlin" (made in 1945)?  https://youtu.be/XXQrWYeFm8c (https://youtu.be/XXQrWYeFm8c)  Ilya Muromets is audible at 12 minutes but it doesn't last for long...

Thanks Cristopher - this is it: I did not know that it was posted on YouTube!
Anyway, a copy is now on the way to me...
I saw it for the first time at the Mosfilm archive in the 1990s
Very odd that this heroic Romantic "legend" music - having nothing in common with Communism - is being used for propaganda purposes. But Hitler too, he used Liszt's "Les Préludes" as a signal of his Reichssender...

Is the extract that they're using the beginning of the fourth movement? If so, I can see why they used it as it represents an "imminent threat," followed by the scenes of the artillery in the film.

Will analyse this soundtrack once I have received the video. I am too busy at the moment, Justin.

Leon Botstein's performance with "The Orchestra Now," dating from 2018:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-5DibKadVg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-5DibKadVg)

I know people really don't want to know this but the symphony was used in the Lone Ranger episodes on the radio.

Is there a certain episode we can listen to with this symphony? I'm interested in hearing how it fits with the story.

Will see what I can do for you

IMDb which often lists use of composer's music in TV and movie soundtracks doesn't mention any Glière in the Lone Ranger (see Glière entry (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0322926)) but this might be an oversight/incompleteness. Without checking the entries for all the episodes of the Lone Ranger I can't see if any of them list any music other than the Rossini...

The Lone Ranger (apparently both in its TV and radio incarnations) apparently used a lot of classical music aside from the Rossini, not all of them well known pieces. For instance, I found a TalkClassical thread where someone asked to identify the music in this clip. (https://youtu.be/CHqVTqhv4Ao?t=440) It ended up being a fast tempo version of Joseph Hellmesberger's "Storm Scene (Gewitterszene)" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD5Kklx86Y8) - not sure about its status in the 1950s, but that's quite an obscure piece these days. I don't think a complete lists exists in official credits, as the pieces were chosen because they were considered public domain compositions. Someone's put together a book with all the references he could find though. (https://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Masked-Mans-Music-Search/dp/0810839741)

And with that, let's return to the topic - unless, that is, someone can unearth which parts of the Glière are used in The Lone Ranger.

I just think it's amazing how this piece gives and gives, on this forum at least.  What are unsung works have generated this amount of comment here? It would be interesting to compare them and see what commonalities they have in their impact, and of course to contrast them.

You know I have Downes, Rahtkin, Stokowski, Minnesota Orchestra, and the new Naxos recording with the Buffalo/Falleta, Johanos, and Ormandy. The best is Downes. I love this work so much.

Why is Downes the best, Tom?

Downes is good, certainly: nice attention to detail and sensible tempi (not sluggish, like Farberman) and with the benefit of Chandos' lush sound. But, for my money, Falletta is even better: brisker tempi, a really purposeful interpretation - and good sound too. That's just my opinion, of course.

In my opinion, Falletta is much too polished and not at all sounding Russian. With respect to Naxos, I prefer the older recording by Johanos (the best 2nd movement of all!).

While I'm of the opinion that the Botstein is the best one...

(On Telarc, haven't heard the recentish one available on download/streaming)

Everybody is wrong.  ;D

The best in my opinion is the 1999 radio recording featuring the Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Neeme Järvi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRpEt9FvTbU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRpEt9FvTbU)

I am generally not a fan of this conductor, due to his quick tempos on many works, but he takes this performance at just the right pace. Slow enough to bring out the limitless details of the work, while moving it along to keep the listener in complete excitement.

The acoustics are superior to many studio versions I have heard. Take the second movement, where the orchestra plays as though it is pregnant with melody, expressing the astonishing feeling that this is an enormous ensemble in another world, syncing nicely with the seduction of Murometz by Solovei's women.

Another example is the third movement, which one can imagine taking place in an elaborate, vast hall in the palace of King Vladimir. Also listen to the final chord of the first movement, and how it evanesces into the ether, with Murometz riding into the horizon of the endless Slavic landscape.

Botstein, and Falleta both sound too enclosed, which I feel cannot work with the content of this symphony. Downes is better but I feel his tempo is sometimes off in the fourth movement.

Everything about this piece is on a grand scale, and so the atmosphere must match that for the full effect to embrace the listener.

We compared these recordings already something like 1-2 years ago - in this same thread :-)

Indeed we did, Adriano, and there is little point in going back over old ground, or repeating what has already been said. There is definitely no value in just writing "X is my favourite", without giving any reasons for this judgement - Justin's post is a model contribution of how to do it, if you must.

Do the moderators have access to metrics? I'd just be interested to know what other single works have generated this much discussion. 15 pages and counting! It's only a rough measure of course, but still...

imperials are fine too.

Metrics or imperials ( :) ), the short answer is no, we don't have a way as far as I can see to display a league table of topics. Even if we did, I'm not sure how much it would tell us because, despite the moderators' best efforts, many posts waver off topic during the course of discussion, particularly in long threads. I think it's fair to say, though, that I don't recall a single work which has attracted more discussion over the years than Ilya Murometz.

I know that Chandos has the best sound recording far better than the Falletta which doesn't sound right to me although her conducting is good as well as the Buffalo Philharmonic. It lacks the necessary atmosphere. While Downes is slower by a few minutes I like the pace. Fabermann is too slow for my ear and the orchestra is not as good. I have not heard the Jarvi but I will soon. For now, I am happy with the Downes. I wonder who recorded it in the '40s for the Lone Ranger episodes. I too am amazed at the popularity of the thread.

I'm not amazed by the popularity of this thread: Ilya Murometz is one of the most loved sonic spectaculars ever composed, and yet how many people have ever heard it performed live? It's really rather astonishing how many recordings there are, cut or not. But it's frustrating as can be that after all this time there still isn't a recording where the sound is fully up to the demands of the score. I keep hoping some young whippersnapper, like Jurowski, who really loves and understands the Russian repertoire will take it up and put it on Blu Ray in 5.1 surround sound with no cuts, no alterations in the scoring or other interventions. Maybe Gergiev doesn't like it: I was praying he'd do it in London, but no. Neeme Jarvi could still turn in a performance, although he seems to be getting more glib as time goes on. What is totally unneeded are any more stereo red book CD versions. Still one of my favorite symphonies, good to escape the many problems of the world.

Quote from: MartinH on Tuesday 12 January 2021, 20:10
...and yet how many people have ever heard it performed live?

I was present at the Botstein/TON performance from December 2018 (now online) in a concert that also included Rimsky-Korsakov's First Symphony:
https://www.bard.edu/news/events/event/?eid=134335&date=1544659200
First times (and most likely one-and-only) for both works for this listener.

I heard the San Diego Symphony perform this work in the '80s. Live was a treat never to be missed. It was shorter but didn't matter.

That must have been with Yoel Levi? I love the cd he made there. It IS a terrific reading - but such a shame it's cut.

It was a night I will never forget! I am one lucky man to hear this in person.