Unsung Composers

I have heard from conductor Christopher Fifield that he would like to plan a private recording of Frederic Cliffe's Symphony No.2 (as yet unrecorded) during the summer of 2015. The work would be performed by the Lambeth Orchestra conducted by Chris himself (an orchestra he knows well), with a couple of rehearsals being followed by a day spent making the recording itself. The recording day is planned for Saturday July 18th 2015, between 10am and 5pm at All Saints Church, West Dulwich, London.

Although no subsequent public performances are currently planned, the Symphony may well be programmed during a future season of the Lambeth Orchestra.

As you can imagine, there will be costs to cover, i.e. the hire of a couple of extra instrumentalists needed for the Symphony, recording fees, and hire of venues for the rehearsals and the recording day. In all, Chris would need to raise approx. £1000 for the project.

So the proposal is this: if sufficient financial support could be raised (e.g. 20 contributors @ £50 each), the recording could be made, with each contributor receiving a CD recording of the Symphony and the opportunity (if desired) to attend the recording sessions on July 18th.

I have agreed with Chris to act as 'treasurer' for the project, so cheques can be sent to me (payable to A. K. Howe) if you are interested. Chris has already received one pledge of £100 towards the recording. 

Please, therefore, do let me know by email or by PM via this website whether you are interested in contributing to this worthwhile project and how much you might be able to afford to donate.

Alan Howe

Aloha, Alan and all - have those planning this recording considered a "Kickstarter" project, or similar?  Michael Samis did rather well with his, and taking nothing away from the good and fine appeal on this forum, a Kickstarter project might cast a wider net.  Perhaps a Paypal (or similar) option as well, to simply the payment process?

Gregory

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/michaelsamis/a-forgotten-cello-concerto (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/michaelsamis/a-forgotten-cello-concerto)

I agree with Gregory.  A kickstarter would be an easier way to publicize and also to collect the cash.  I'm sure we would be in for $50 US.

Jerry

Gentlemen: we're going to use PayPal for donations. Details to follow ASAP...

If you want to make a donation using PayPal, Alan and I have agreed that we'll use the raff.org PayPal account. Please send your donation via PayPal to:

sales@raff.org with the reference Cliffe Symphony Recording, together with your name (if it isn't obvious from your email address).

Out of curiosity if I may (if this isn't the wrong thread &c) - I see from Worldcat that Soundpost Publishing (Mallorca) has an edition (Editor Mr. Lionel Harrison) of the Cliffe Symphony No.2 in E minor published in 2010. Is that the first-ever (...known, movable-type/non-manuscript/...) publication of the work?

Yes, I believe it is, Eric.

A bit of a waste having it played by an amateur orchestra isn't it?

I say sir, that strikes me as being a little harsh.

Thal

Far too harsh. The Lambeth Orchestra are pretty good - easily good enough for a recording. And remember: Chris F. is a Cliffe expert.

Sorry if my comment sounded harsh, it wasn't intended as a slight to amateur orchestras, but I feel a work of this importance should be given the fairest chance of a hearing by being recorded by a professional orchestra. One thinks of the recordings that were made in Edinburgh of Sullivan's Ivanhoe. However committed to the project they were, the resulting recording did nothing to enhance or even convince anyone that Ivanhoe was not an opera of much interest, a view now reassessed by the more recent performances on disc by David Lloyd Jones and a professional organisation.
However good or not half bad any amateur orchestra may be, it is my opinion that if the Cliffe Symphony 2 is really a good work then it is surely worth attempting to make the best recording possible. A performance in a hall, well fine that's fine, but something that will be on disc forever and taking the accolade of world premier recording, thus putting off any of our more enterprising smaller labels from taking this work, can do less of a service than is perhaps hoped. I am not advocating Mr. Fifield not to record the work, but I would suggest that perhaps he should be trying to raise serious money through our forum in order to make a recording that has a chance.
I also was not attempting to undermine Mr. Fifield's credentials as a "Cliffe" expert, although I personally find the idea of anyone being labelled as an "expert" in any composer, thus implying that they alone could undertake that composer's work, rather uninspiring.

Well, the project is set up with the Lambeth Orchestra. Of course, there's always the possibility that the recording may lead to one with a professional orchestra, but I personally trust Chris Fifield to do a good job - friends should recall the superlative recording he made of Symphony 1 on Sterling.

Finally, to call Chris "a Cliffe expert" is merely a statement of fact and in no way implies that he alone could undertake a recording - that is a non-sequitur. 

Dear Alan
  This rescue is very important, the score is complete in 4 movements? What Other works will be include? I have the Symphony in Sterling And his violin concert in Hyperion, I like the music. I think so that paypal is good option for support the project. This project will be release in Sterling?

The project is a purely private one. There is no intention to release the recording on a commercial label.

Dear Alan
Ok!! moreover the symphony what other works will be performance?

At the moment it's only the Symphony.

A brief update: so far £350 has been pledged. Many thanks indeed to those generous individuals. If anyone else is interested in supporting the project, please let me know as soon as possible.

I would certainly consider adding to the cd Cliffe's Coronation March (1910) which starts the programme on December 6th. The orchestra is certainly enjoying playing it and it's turned out to be rather a good occasional work with a clever 'Bach' choral prelude ('Nun danket alle Gott') emerging through the orchestral textures.

I am following the thread with great interest, if tempered with a degree of concern.

While fully recognising that an amateur orchestra will never achieve the facility and sound quality of a professional one, nevertheless what they may lack in technique they more than make up for in enthusiasm. Our recording of Cliffe 1 certainly persuaded Bo Hyttner of the symphony's worth and led subsequently to my recording it with the Malmo Opera Orchestra on Sterling label.

I guarantee that no professional orchestra here (UK) would take the box office risk with Cliffe 2, while to hire a professional orchestra would cost ten times the amount I am hoping will be pledged. Here is a one-off golden opportunity.

Let's hope I have good reason to 'danket Gott'!

Christopher Fifield

Good of you to post, Chris. And good news too that the Coronation March could be added to Symphony No.2 for the CD.

Dear Alan and Chistopher
Thank you very much for info!!
I have some cd's by you Chris
I'm glad for this project. It interesting me!

Dear Chris
One question, if one cooperate to the project, Can get too the Dunhill symphony?
Or only Cliffe's works?
Excuseme the question ::)

Many years ago I was able to purchase from Maestro Fifield the CD of the Cliffe Symphony No. 1 coupled with the Arthur Hinton Piano Concerto, and I was not and am not put off at all by the performance of the Lambeth Orchestra. These recordings were done in 2000, so I think it is safe to say the high quality level has most likely only got higher. I, too, might cringe at some of the high school orchestras who somehow always have the one horn player who can't hit the high note quite on, but by the same token, music that I would never have heard has come to me that way. I have often seen disparagement of Geoffrey Heald-Smiths work with the City of Hull Youth Orchestra, but I not only didn't cringe but was elated to be able to hear those Brian works--I am old, so can't remember the others right now--when they were nowhere else available. Remember the word "amateur" is based on the Latin word for love, maybe loving to make music is something to be celebrated, at least in the case of the Lambeth orchestra. And I would never have heard Dora Bright's lovely piano concerto without the Morley Chamber Orchestra, which was a little squeaky (sorry, amateurs) but Samantha Ward did a wonderful job at the piano. So, squeaks, falling chairs, whatever, bring on the music when you can. Just wish I could afford the contribution. Best wishes, nonetheless.

Thanks very much for the encouragement, Vic. Very helpful...

Hello Aramiarz

I couldn't include the Dunhill because the hired edited orchestral material attracts a prohibitive copyright recording fee. It is on the Dutton label. Hopefully this won't discourage you from participating in the project ...

Thanks to Vic and, yes, after 14 years they are even better.

'He would say that anyway' but the Lambeth Orchestra is performing challenging repertoire to a high standard (Mahler 4, Die Walkuere (Act 1), Walton cello concerto etc etc) and I am very proud of them.

Otherwise I would not be in my 32nd year as its Music Director!

Dear Christopher

  No problem! I have interest in your projects, moreover in the future there are more, I will participate!   I Didn't know that Dunhill is in Dutton  ;D
Other question Chris, when You release the Richard Franck Cd in Sterling, one work You didn't include, but I don't remember what  :'(, in that time my Mail adress was blocked for one error system And never I never could recuperated it. :'( lost much contacts And information, excuse me the question!
Other question in the future what Other rescue project have You?

In reply to musiclover.  I wonder if you have any idea how much it costs to record a full symphony. In the UK with a professional orchestra it is unlikely to be less than £10,000.   It is also a fact that if it is to be commercially released by a 'known'label they will expect at least 60 minutes of music.  I have heard the Lambeth Orchestra many times and I can state categorically that they are superior to some of the State funded professional orchestras in Denmark of the rickety band in Malta which seems to get a few recordings.

This way we do at lease get a very worthwhile symphony which is unlikely to be recorded elsewhere anytime soon.

10 000£, including 2 essays and enginer sound with recording?

Yes, Giles, I am totally aware of how much recordings cost and my point was not to denigrate any amateur orchestra, rather to point out that the Cliffe No2 is an important work and by releasing it with an amateur orchestra you pretty certainly take away any chance of a record label recording it again, as in this important but niche market having the marketing ability to be able to say First recording is of paramount importance.

I completely disagree. It would be perfectly possible to advertise a release as "first commercial recording" or suchlike. So if a work recorded privately proved attractive enough, there's absolutely no reason why a regular recording label couldn't take it on.
An obvious example, as we have already heard, is Chris Fifield's recording of Cliffe 1 on Sterling which was preceded by a private recording done with the Lambeth Orchestra!! Seems like a good precedent to me - and not being advertised as a first recording doesn't seem to have done it any harm.

I entirely agree, Alan.

Ref: Reinecke Cello Concerto.

Quite.

The donation by pay pal is too fiddly for me. 

Giles, to donate via PayPal, go to www.paypal.com (http://www.paypal.com) and log into your account using your email address and your PayPal password. Then click on "My PayPal", which will take you to your own account page. Once there, click on "Pay or send money" and then on the second "Pay or send money" option which opens up. Then enter "sales@raff.org" as the email address, {Your donation amount} GBP as the amount and click "Next". Finally, before clicking "Send", add "Cliffe Symphony Recording" in the "Add a note" box. That's it! It'll take you less time to do it, than to read what I've just written.

Alternatively, you could email or PM Alan for his address and send him a cheque direct.

Giles,

As someone who is not very 'IT savvy' these days (and this from a retired senior IT manager!!), I found Mark's instructions simple and they worked.  If even I can do it....

Cheers

Richard

Very many thanks from Christopher Fifield to everyone so far who has generously donated to enable this recording project to go ahead. I understand from him that the target is now within sight, and that a few more donations would enable him to go ahead with it. For anyone who knows Frederic Cliffe's First Symphony, having the opportunity to hear Cliffe's Second is a tantalising prospect, but we'll only realise that if the cost of making a worthwhile recording of a performance by Christopher's Lambeth Orchestra can be underwritten.

You can donate either by contacting Alan (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2) and sending him a cheque, or by sending a donation by PayPal - instructions here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,5292.msg55716.html#msg55716).

By way of encouragement, Christopher has asked me to upload the recording of the Lambeth Orchestra's recent performance of Cliffe's Coronation March - which you can download here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,5414.0.html).

Mark,

I've already donated (and obviously hoping Mr Fifield meets his target) but, following on from this upload, are you or Mr Fifield aware of any other of his orchestral works that might, at a later date, be perfomed. WIKI's listing is very thin on the ground apart for works already covered by (i) Sterling (Sym 1 & Sym Poem) and (ii) Hyperion (VC)

Best wishes

Richard

PS If this is covered in a previous post I've  missed, my apologies

No, I have no knowledge of any other Cliffe recording projects, Richard. Maybe someone else knows.

Cliffe left very little - barely half a dozen works. Three are already recorded, the first symphony, the tone poem Cloud & Sunshine (both on Sterling) and the violin concerto on Hyperion. What is left are two vocal works, the first for chorus called Ode to the Northeast Wind, the other a scena for contralto (actually Clara Butt) called The Triumph of Alcestis. I have a vocal score of the choral work but have never seen the orchestral material or a full score (nor any format of the scena). Which leaves the second symphony and the Coronation March ... 

It looks as if Mr Cliffe is joining a long list of enjoyable/distinguished composers who left a relatively small body of orchestral (or even total) work due to priority/necessity of performing and/or teaching duties.  A quick scan of the notes to the two current CDs (that Mr Fifield mentions above) confirm his few (orchestral) works but not why (unless I missed it)

This thought was prompted by typing up some notes on Johann Wilms' symphonies (which I have recently downloaded from e-music) - that was his fate too and that struck a chord that seems to crop up quite often when I'm doing a bit of Internet research on 'unknowns'.

Do we know if that was that the case for Mr Cliffe or was his small oeuvre due to other reasons (e.g. writers' block or whatever)?

Cheers

Richard

Not sure positively, though the biographical information in the Musikproduktion Höflich preface (http://musikmph.de/musical_scores/vorworte/924.html) for the first symphony tries to suggest some reasons.

Is there an update on the amount of donations received so far, the last I heard was that it was only just past the half way mark which is a little disappointing.

As far as I have been told, the total stands at £550 in cheques received and a further £100 pledged, so we are two thirds of the way there.

Eric,

Thanks for the link but unfortunately I'm not able to read German and was also unable to cut and paste it into Google translate.

Best wishes

Richard

Try clicking on 'english' at the top of the page...

I would hope that in the future initiators of such projects might set them up thru one of the jump start type sites so that those of us in nether parts of the world can simply participate by using their Visa and Mastercards or PayPal.  As Michael did with the Reinecke project.  Just a suggestion.

Jerru

...or, erm, just scroll down to the English translation toward the bottom of the page- or does that only exist when I see it?...

I have that too, Eric - just didn't spot it! Thanks.

Jerry, you can use PayPal (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,5292.msg55716.html#msg55716)

Alan,

Just seen the 'English' link - tks for the info

Richard

The Coronation March has an enjoyably brassy beginning and a nice Elgarian tune in the middle section. It would make a thoroughly worthwhile coupling for the Second Symphony...

The total raised has now risen to £800. Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. A great effort.

I am most grateful. This brings the project within touching distance of going ahead - just £200 more to find.

Regarding information about Cliffe and his music, there is also my essay in the cd booklet of my recording for Sterling of the first symphony.

...which, of course, is a reminder to acquire that superb recording. It really is a must-buy!

I am happy to report that, after another generous cheque, we now have £900 either given or pledged towards the Cliffe 2 Project. I look forward to reporting that the last £100 has been donated!

Great. Thanks for the update.

Progress?

I'm pleased to announce that the recording is going ahead on Saturday July 18th, as planned. The venue is All Saints Church, West Dulwich, London and the times are 10am-1pm and 2pm to 5pm.

I'm sure that Chris Fifield would be pleased to see supporters of the project on the day. It would also help him to know how many might be attending, so please either post your response here in this thread or send me an email (or PM via the site).

Good oh! Unfortunately, I will be out of the country at the time.

What a splendid result! Do we know to whom, and how, the recording will be made available?

I am assuming the CD will only be made available to those who have supported the recording financially. Beyond that, it will be up to Chris Fifield who will own the recording.

Ok, thanks, Alan.

I was not in a financial position to make a contribution to the costs of this project at the time of its inception, but would very much like to purchase a CD at an appropriate cost, if this were possible.

It would be worth contacting Chris Fifield direct, Gareth. I'm sure he'll work out something for you.

Thanks, Alan. Will do.

My contribution towards this project was relatively modest.  At the time the looney was in rather a feeble state and my contribution of 20 pounds cost me close to C$40 as it was, so I have no expectation of getting a complimentary copy of the CD or anything like that.  But like Gareth, I would be more than happy to have the opportunity of purchasing a copy.

If you've contributed, I'm sure you'll get a copy.

I asked Chris Fifield how the recording session yesterday went. He replied:

"Extremely well.  We all (60 players) loved it."

Chris hopes to post a report soon - which I'm sure we're all looking forward to reading.

I am happy to report that yesterday (Saturday July 18th) I finally played and recorded Cliffe's Symphony No.2 in E minor with full orchestra. This was not a public performance, though we were delighted to have Forum member John White present for the afternoon session. Sixty of my friends in the Lambeth Orchestra met at All Saints, West Dulwich for a full day of recording. In the morning we started with the slow movement ('Night') followed after the break by the scherzo ('Fairy revels'); after a picnic on the lawn in front of the church and in perfect summer weather, we resumed with the last movement ('Morning') and then the first ('At sunset'). This was, to the best of my knowledge, the first time since 1902 that the symphony had been heard. It had a life of ten years, having been commissioned by the Leeds Festival in 1892, performed under Cliffe on Thursday October 6th (in the second half of a concert in which Mozart's Requiem formed the first!) August Manns then did it (with some revisions to the 2nd and 4th movements by the composer) at the Crystal Palace on October 29th.

'Hearing with the eye' as you have to when studying a score which has never been played in living memory, proved a revelatory exercise. When Cliffe wrote it in 1892, Bruckner had four years to live, Brahms five. Also this was barely three years after Cliffe's own first symphony which took the musical press and public by storm at Crystal Palace in 1889. Members will know my recording for Sterling, and I consider that to be a great work. The harmonic idiom of the second symphony is not straightforward, indeed when we had a strings-only rehearsal two weeks ago (we had one with full orchestra except timpani, harp and tuba two days before the recording) it sounded more 1950 than 1890, a lot of fussy writing and player-unfriendly passage work with no obvious sense of shape and direction. Adding the wind and brass made (obviously) a clearer picture. A string player wrote to me this morning. "What a lovely day it was yesterday. I really enjoyed it and came away feeling exhilarated. It also turned out to be quite a social event. I hope that you will be pleased when the final recording is released. I must say however that after the first string rehearsal I was wondering what on earth I had let myself in for but after that things just got better and better", while a wind player wrote, "I hope you enjoyed yesterday as much as we did? It goes against all my principles to admit, but I really enjoyed playing the Cliffe, and those around me did too! It was really refreshing to be able to rehearse and record in such detail and I think the orchestra really benefited from the whole experience".

How to pin-point influences...  Well Cliffe certainly was Wagner-influenced (Tristan) but then few weren't! His rhythmic energy is often Dvorak (popular in England at the time), his musical angst is that of Tchaikovsky, who died the following year. Some of his melodies have an Elgarian flavour but we must remember that the second symphony appeared seven years before the Elgar explosion with Enigma Variations in June 1899. 'Fairy Revels' is pure Mendelssohn and has tunes a-plenty which are quintessentially English in character and it's no surprise that it was encored on occasion. The slow movement 'Night' features those nocturnal sounds which so obsessed Bartok half a century later in his Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste. The opening movement sets a stall out with melodies and rhythmic motifs which will reappear later in the work. The finale was problematic at the time and subjected to cuts, which caused editorial headaches when, several years ago, we played it through at a rehearsal but from the original handwritten parts, producing many a car crash. Patrick Meadows and Lionel Harrison produced a cleaned-up score, I proofread the result and pointed out errors and inconsistencies. I was still doing that the night before the recording. It never ends...

I conclude by thanking those members of the Forum who contributed to the fund which paid for the hire of the churches (rehearsal and recording venues) and extra players. I stayed within budget and find myself in profit to the tune of £18, which will be used to post out cds.

I am assured the music is all 'in the can' and will be in touch when cds are available in particular to those who contributed to the project.  Please let Alan Howe have your addresses; he has kindly agreed to manage that distribution.

Warmest wishes

Christopher Fifield

Christopher, we all owe you a huge debt.  I will gladly pay whatever price you name for this recording.
Thank you so very much!

Seconded in spades.

Indeed. Well done. I'm looking forward very much to hearing the Symphony. Such a shame that I couldn't be there myself...

I too am full of admiration for and gratitude to Chris for taking on this wonderful project and bringing it to fruition in London yesterday. Please could everyone who has already contributed financially to the making of the recording let me have their postal address and I will ensure that the CDs get posted out as soon as they are available.

I have been sent a taster by my recording engineer, namely the last six minutes of the first movement ('Night'), and I can report positively even though it's a rough cut.

As the only member of the audience present at this recording session, I must publicly thank Chris and his  orchestra for the kind welcome I received from them. I even got a round of applause when Chris mentioned to them that I had come all the way from the Isle of Wight to witness this historic occasion!
   I arrived just after 2pm when they had already started playing through the finale. I was puzzled to note that certain passages were then repeated as at a rehearsal but the whole movement was not played through again. I was told afterwards that the recording engineer would be able to insert the better versions of the passages concerned electronically, using some very clever software. I gather that is somewhat akin to stitching together a series of photos to make up a panorama. I thought the short slow introduction to the finale very cleverly written, starting with low murmurings on the double basses and then bringing in other groups of instruments in turn. The main part of the finale, to me, was of a triumphal nature with a number of brassy climaxes. The only criticism I could make of Cliffe's scoring was that most of the time, at least from where I was sitting, the harp was completely  drowned out by the rest of the orchestra. I was told afterwards that the harp really did come into its own in the quieter middle movements that were recorded in the morning session that I missed. Lastly, the opening movement was played and turned out to me to be a very relaxing triple time piece in a sort of lullaby style, although even here there was the odd fortissimo climax.
    I certainly look forward to hearing the complete CD when it comes out. Meanwhile, I sent for a copy of Chris's CD of Cliffe's 1st Symphony.
Well done Chris and well done the Lambeth Orchestra! 

Thanks for the report, John. It's a shame that more of us couldn't be there.

May I again ask everyone who has contributed financially to the making of the recording to let me have their postal address so that I can ensure that the CDs get posted out as soon as they are available. Thanks!

Thanks to all those who have contacted me. I'll send the CDs off as soon as I receive copies.
Alan Howe

Update: the CDs are shortly to be sent to me for distribution. Thanks once again to contributors for your patience.

Incidentally, Symphony No.2 is approx. 60 minutes long, so we're going to get our money's worth!

Additional note: please do not allow others to copy the CD when you receive it: we don't want it suddenly appearing on YouTube where anyone can download it. After all, it is a commercial recording. Enquiries re. the purchase of further copies should be addressed to Chris Fifield direct.   

"After all, it is a commercial recording."
I agree. But // and.
... This injunction against YouTube-ripping shouldn't only apply when the creator of the CD is a friend.
Just saying. In seriousness.

Quote... This injunction against YouTube-ripping shouldn't only apply when the creator of the CD is a friend. Just saying. In seriousness.

Well, we don't infringe in this matter - whether the creator of the CD is a friend or a commercial company. That's always been our policy. Pity the YouTubers don't follow our example...

Thank you so much Alan.  Patience can be rewarding!

Talked to Chris F. yesterday: the CD is the end of a 12-year attempt to get the score in order and record the music. He's obviously put his heart and soul into the project. Wonderful. And I gather that he's planning a public performance with his Lambeth Orchestra too...

I very much look forward to receiving my copy.  Has the Coronation March been included as a make weight? 
I believe Cliffe composed some songs, are these now lost?

The March is on the CD. No idea about the songs - sorry. Chris'll probably know...

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind anyone who doesn't know Chris Fifield's recording of Cliffe's Symphony No.1 on Sterling that it preserves one of the very finest performances of a major piece of unsung music in the entire catalogue. The Penguin Guide indeed awarded the CD a rosette. The magic of the performance is palpable when one listens to it - and the recorded sound is positively Brucknerian in amplitude, which is entirely appropriate as it seems to this listener that Cliffe must have known Bruckner (7) - as well as Wagner.
CD: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0000E2RGL/ref=s9_simh_gw_p15_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=desktop-1&pf_rd_r=0NAGWZ8675ZC7NYM4Z0R&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=577049067&pf_rd_i=desktop (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0000E2RGL/ref=s9_simh_gw_p15_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=desktop-1&pf_rd_r=0NAGWZ8675ZC7NYM4Z0R&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=577049067&pf_rd_i=desktop)
Download & audio samples: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Frederic-Cliffe-Symphony-Cloud-Sunshine/dp/B00OSNMAC6/ref=sr_1_1?s=dmusic&ie=UTF8&qid=1444413998&sr=1-1-mp3-albums-bar-strip-0&keywords=cliffe+symphony (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Frederic-Cliffe-Symphony-Cloud-Sunshine/dp/B00OSNMAC6/ref=sr_1_1?s=dmusic&ie=UTF8&qid=1444413998&sr=1-1-mp3-albums-bar-strip-0&keywords=cliffe+symphony)

It's a great performance of a great work but it sounds like it was recorded in a Victorian bath house. I love that this site promotes music that is unsung and supports its supporters but in the interest of honesty let's please be open about shortcomings. This recording I just pulled off the shelf because of this thread and the acoustic is dreadful, like a 60s soviet recording in its echoey reverberation.

I  think enthusiasm can sometimes outweigh judgement here and it devalues the valuable insights the site could and does provide.

I was listening to the Cliffe Symphony No.1 recording only the other day. I'm no audiophile, but I must say that I heard none of the "Victorian bath house" about the acoustic at all. It maybe doesn't have the noticeably splendid sound that one gets from a Chandos recording, say, but to my ears (and on my equipment) there was nothing about it which prevented one from focussing entirely on the music itself.

Agreed, Mark. The generous acoustic, as I'd prefer to describe it, plays a vital part in creating the conditions required to enjoy Cliffe's marvellous symphony to the full.

...and surely Cliffe must have heard Bruckner 7. It's impossible to hear the towering climaxes in Cliffe's Symphony without being reminded of the Austrian master. Consider this: Hans Richter conducted Bruckner 7 in London on 23rd May 1887; Cliffe's Symphony was premiered under August Manns in London on 20th April 1889...

If anyone else uses Spotify, the first symphony is available for streaming. I'll have a listen later on as I've not got round to listening to anything by Cliffe.

Update:
The CDs of Symphony No.2 are now in the post to me. I will mail them on as soon as I receive them.

Brilliant - looking forward very much to hearing this.  Congratulations to all involved in getting this CD to market and, equally, to Alan for his efforts to get the CD sent out.

Best wishes

Richard

Thanks, Alan.  Looking forward to it.

Great work by Alan and all involved.  Now, the hard part..........patience.

The CDs - which include a fascinating booklet essay by Chris F. himself - were posted off this morning. Enquiries regarding the purchase of the CD should be addressed to Chris from this point on.

Symphony No.2 is clearly the work of the same composer as No.1, but the conception is grander and the pace in general considerably more leisurely. What will strike the listener most, I suspect, is the sheer richness of the piece: there is nothing remotely comparable in British symphonic music before Elgar - unless there is something else awaiting rediscovery 'out there' somewhere. By 1892 Cliffe has left the world of Parry and Stanford well behind him and is striking out on his own, forging a musical language infused by the innovations of Wagner and possibly Bruckner. The symphony is an extraordinary achievement and must now be taken up by conductors interested in the musical renaissance which was taking place in these islands at the close of the nineteenth century.

We owe a huge debt of gratitude to Chris Fifield and his committed orchestra for bringing this magnificent work before the public. Chris' reward should now be the opportunity to make a commercial recording for a major label and so bring the work to a wider audience than can be reached by this private release.

That really is a mouth-watering description, Alan, of what is obviously a very important work. I can't wait to hear the piece myself, but unfortunately it'll be the weekend at the earliest for me.

Can't wait to hear friends' assessment of Cliffe 2. My opinion after a few hearings is that it is the finest British symphony pre-Elgar, but I realise that may upset proponents of Stanford or Parry - of whom I count myself one. The next question is: how good is this piece in ultimate terms? Is it repertoire-worthy? And who will take it up?

Can you just remind us? I know that the score was in manuscript only, and required some editing for performance. Was the editing just cosmetic? Is what we are going to hear 100% Cliffe? If not, how much isn't and who is responsible for it?

As far as I know it's 100% Cliffe. The score used is a product of the wholesale tidying-up and correction process undertaken by Patrick Meadows and Lionel Harrison.

Ah, yes, I remember Lionel posting about it a few years ago here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,902.msg12800.html#msg12800). Thanks, Alan.

Alan, can you tell us the timings of each movement? Thank you.

Your wish....

1  15:57
2  19:16
3    9:59
4  14:47

IMPORTANT NOTICE

Please would anyone wishing to purchase a copy of the Cliffe 2 CD and contacting Chris Fifield via the website remember to include your email and postal addresses.

Thanks

Has anyone received their CDs?  I would love some feedback on performance and recording, etc.
Being in the US I do not expect my copy for some time yet.

Yes: it would be good to hear from those who have now received their copy...

While browsing through a November 1904 copy of Musical Times, I came across a letter from Walter Alcock who states that when Sullivan started his composition class at The National Training School,( now The Royal College) he selected only three pupils Cliffe, d'Albert and himself.

First impressions, after two listens:

The quality of the recording itself is, to be honest, much better than I thought it might be and is fully up to the standard, say, of a good quality radio broadcast, if lacking the breadth and fine detail of a first-rate commercial issue. Although the orchestra is slightly distant, to me the acoustic is very similar to what one would get in a concert hall, as opposed to the fine-tuned sound of a studio recording. The playing itself is of a uniformly high quality and everyone is clearly very committed. So, no complaints on either count there. The CD is to all intents and purposes a professional production, complete with a colour booklet which has excellent and extensive notes from Christopher Fifield, who I think has realised his birthday project with a care and vision of which he should be proud. Those of us who subscribed to it should be very grateful.

What of the music itself? The Coronation March is already available in our Downloads board here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,5414.0.html), so I won't spend any time describing it. As for the Symphony No.2, Alan has already given us some of the headlines. At almost exactly an hour long it is a very expansive four movement piece which, although written just three years after the familiar First, represents a huge technical advance on its predecessor. In it Cliffe clearly embraces the influence of Wagner (and possibly Bruckner) in writing what must have seemed a very modern work at the time of its premiere. His skill as an orchestrator is even more evident in this work than in the First, and he delivers a very impressionist sound scape in illustrating his sunset-to-morning programme. The whole piece has a surprisingly rhapsodic, almost seductive atmosphere to it which, together with its sprawling canvas, bizarrely reminded me both of Debussy's orchestral works and of Glière's Ilja Muramets. It's really like no other pre-WWI British symphony.

Is it a lost masterpiece? I honestly don't know. Although it is clearly a huge advance on the First in so many ways, so far I am unconvinced. For me, although Christopher Fifield's tempi seem entirely appropriate and in keeping with the work, its very length counts against it because it exposes some of the Symphony's shortcomings. The programme naturally dictates that the 16 minute long opening movement "At Sunset" will contain music of a generally moderate tempo, but it's followed by the 19-minute long episodic (and rather beautiful) slow movement "Night", which slows things down even further. The third movement "Fairy Revels" is perhaps the most conventional movement (for the 19th century), but even then it's not exactly fleet of foot. The final "Morning" is a well-wrought conclusion which ends in a blaze of orchestral colour and definitely doesn't outstay its welcome, despite lasting almost a quarter of an hour. I'm not a great fan of "heavenly length", and my first impressions are that Cliffe here has been self-indulgent and didn't need to spread his material as far as he did, although to be honest I'm also hard put to point to any particular passage which should have been edited out to good effect. This impression is not helped by the fact that so far I have found Cliffe's thematic material in the Symphony to be much less memorable that in other works of his, and sometimes rather commonplace.

Perhaps, despite the finale's recall of material from the preceding movements, each of them might have had a more successful life than the Symphony itself achieved had they been independent symphonic poems? No doubt others will disagree, and I hope that they do because in so many ways this is an important and impressive work. For myself, I'm still hugely grateful to Christopher for giving us the chance to hear it, and as I will continue to do.

After having just had a first listen, I can definitely say that the symphony made more of a positive impression than perhaps I was anticipating! Am I not alone in hearing more than a hint of Raff in the first movement? I feel that the second movement is perhaps the least convincing of the four, with the material not strong enough (IMHO) to sustain interest for its almost-20-minutes duration, and, yes,  I did find my attention wandering - but I need to give this more of a chance in repeated listenings! The scherzo, whilst not of the quickest, does again remind me of Raff, and with a strong finale which doesn't disappoint, this symphony, as a first impression, is well worthy of the eager anticipation its availability now satisfies. The Coronation March speaks for itself, although it was a welcome re-aquaintance, as I was present at the live performance. Overall, though, Christopher Fifield, through his continued and ongoing commitment to this and similar unsung repertoire, done us all proud once again!

I must admit that I didn't hear much Raff in the first movement, Martin, but there is a dash of him in the scherzo I suppose - or is it just the familiar association of "faerie" scherzos with Raff which suggests it? More listening required, I think!

The more I listen to Cliffe 2, the more I think that the key is to approach it in the same way one would a symphony by Bruckner. The idiom isn't really Brucknerian, though: it's much more indebted to Wagner. But, as Mark says, the music is predominantly slow-moving, with only the third movement offering much in the way of relief. Mind you, the climaxes are fabulous (try around 13 and a half minutes into the first movement).

What's clear is that this must have sounded extraordinarily modern in 1892. Cliffe is miles ahead, symphonically and compositionally speaking, of his contemporaries.

My view, FWIW, is that this is a quite glorious masterpiece. But I understand precisely where Mark T. is coming from...

A note on the second movement: I don't find it any more difficult to follow - or discursive -  than, say, the slow movements of either Bruckner 7 or 8. The issue for the listener is the concentration required when the first movement has already stretched to 16 minutes.

Anyway, after half a dozen auditions the whole thing makes far more sense to me than it did first or second time around.

Ah, the first copies have shown up in the colonies.   Thanx so much, Alan.  What do we owe you for postage and such??

First impression:  very nice.   Another real unsung find.

Jerry

The postage costs were included in the deal. You don't owe us anything.

My copy has just made it across both ponds, and so I will settle in tonight, pour a finger or so of cognac, and become immersed in what I'm sure will be a wonderful hour or so.  Thanks to Christopher Fifield & his musicians, Alan, and everyone else along the way who made all this possible!  Let's hope it's only one of many such projects....do we know if Mr. Fifield has any more unsung gems in the planning stages?

Your good health, sir! And happy listening!

I would welcome more opinions about the symphony - it has all gone a bit quiet after some very positive and detailed comments.

I was encouraged by several requests from my players that we should programme the symphony next season and I intend to do so as a result.

If anyone wishes to purchase a cd, I have a few copies left at £20 with a stamped self-addressed envelope from the UK. Overseas requests please send £20 in cash plus an amount to cover postage and a self-addressed envelope. 

In my posting I should have given an email address to receive any request for a cd:  cgfifield@btinternet.com Proceeds from the Cliffe cd will go to the Lambeth Orchestra's running costs.

A courageous and noble effort.  Your players attacked the music with their whole hearts. It is a very difficult score and must be physically exhausting to pull off.  Numerous listenings are necessary as the themes are seriously intertwined and take time to digest.  I do not think it will ever be played often because of the difficulty and length.  It is not "easy" romantic music.  Congratulations to you and your wonderful players!

What is now urgently required is for Chris to go into the studio and record this great work commercially. It's now deeply burned into my musical soul - can't imagine the history of British music without it...

Martin (27 October).  I got my sound engineer to run me off a copy with the scherzo as the second movement and the slow movement third. This gives it a bit more of slow-quick-slow-quick structure. I'm not sure I would record it that way though - what do you all think?

Thanks Alan for your last posting - heartwarming to read.  ALL of you could email Bo Hyttner at Sterling records and beg him to set up a recording. He emailed me his very positive response to the cd and asked me for players' numbers which I duly sent him.  Encouraging but regular prods are needed please.

If there is a P M Gregory out there please email me (cgfifield@btinternet.com)

I should have added Sterling's email address -

sterling@mbox301.swipnet.se

Get emailing!

I have been listening to Scriabin's symphonies over the past few days and I've had this strange feeling that Cliffe 2 is somehow quite closely related to them stylistically. I'm assuming it's the shared interest in Wagner's style and methods that's at the heart of this seemingly unlikely meeting of musical minds. Or am I way off here? I have also been put in mind of Joseph Marx. Tell me I'm going mad...

I'll tell you if you like, but I don't think that you are! You've hit the nail on the head, I'm sure, with your assumption about the influence of Wagner, which indeed permeates almost every bar of Cliffe's Second. There's also the unfettered giganticism of fin de siècle romanticism which they (and Mahler, Marx, von Hausegger etc.) also share, but that may well stem from Wagner's later works too.

So the men in white coats won't be coming after all. Phew!

Seriously, though, this makes Cliffe quite a radical in the British context of 1892...

Oh, absolutely, and especially when judged against the then-establishment of Stanford, Parry and Cowen. Much more radical in fact than Elgar proved to be 10 years later. Fascinating stuff. From Christopher's booklet note it appears that Cliffe's diffident nature militated against any sort of self-promotion, so his modernism existed in a vacuum which he wasn't prepared to do much himself to dispel.

Rob Barnett has now given the CD a typically generous review over at MusicWeb:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/Nov/Cliffe_sy2.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/Nov/Cliffe_sy2.htm)

There are two errors in Rob Barnett's review, which I shall ask him to correct.  The performance of the Coronation March took place in December 2014 not 2015. The orchestra is not Ealing but Lambeth !

Yes, I noted his mention of 'Ealing' and thought his geography was a bit off...

Both errors have now been corrected.

Oh, excellent.

Mr Fifield.
   How can I get one piece? I can by paypal send you the money?
You have made a great discovery

I have only a few cds left. Please email me your email address; mine is cgfifield@btinternet.com

 :)

Perhaps Mr Fifield could be invited over to Mexico to make a fully commercial recording, Aramiarz?

Dear Alan,
     Your idea is very good! I will research in England ambassy can help us with some costs

I hope that you have success with such a project.

We are searching about some ambassy for help us. For example the Norway in Mexico maybe help us for Haarklou 3rd And piano concert, And Goethe Institute ( Germany), maybe help us for Scharwenka Philipp symphony, VC And symphonic poem traum und wirklichkeit. In one month We will receive answer about Scharwenka Project

Returning to Cliffe's Symphony No.2, I am again struck by how advanced the work was for 1892. Parry and Stanford seem positively staid by comparison and, of course, Elgar wouldn't write a symphony for another decade and a half. If those who bought the CD haven't given it a spin for a while, I'd be interested in your views...

Why on earth the work hasn't yet been commercially recorded is anyone's guess. It's a major piece in the jigsaw puzzle of British symphonism.

Hi, is it possible for anyone who has the recording to provide me with a digital copy of it? I didn't know it existed and I wanted to hear it ever since I knew Cliffe made it. Thanks in advance to anyone who wants to help me.

Please see next post...
Alan Howe/Moderator

Digital copies must NOT be made of this recording - which only came about through the generosity of, among others, members of this forum. It would be quite unfair on those who financed the venture if free copies were to escape (and probably end up on YouTube).

For copies, please contact Chris Fifield himself at: cgfifield@btinternet.com

Sorry, didn't want to violate the rules. I had contacted Chris Filfield in the meantime and there were still copies left.

The rule, of course, doesn't just apply to the recording in question here, but to any commercial recording. Making digital copies is theft.

Come on Alexi, for such an adventuring enterprise around 15 GBP isn't very much for a physical CD!

Of course it isn't.

In any case, why should there be an expectation of getting something for nothing?

I think, to be fair, Alexi made the request believing the disk was no longer available.
But as it would appear Chris still has some copies left there is no longer a problem in obtaining this recording.

..I made a purchase of this CD earlier this year from Chris... worth every penny!

Just received my copy in Japan. What an amazingly atmospheric work! What might this composer have achieved had he not retired from composition?

My apologies for not posting for so long - health issues have distracted me for much of 2017. Let's hope 2018 turns out to be better. I do have half a dozen or so copies of Cliffe 2 if any members wish to contact me (cgfifield@btinternet.com). There has been a flurry of activity recently from UK, USA, Japan, Germany, Belgium with most buying it as Xmas presents for themselves (and why not?!), demonstrating how good it is that though we are scattered around the world, we share a common interest in Unsung Composers. I have always read your views with interest and have a mighty high respect for your knowledge and enthusiasm. Long may it thrive!

And we wish you better health and renewed vigour in 2018! Thanks for all you have done for various unsung composers - and the magnificent Cliffe in particular.

Welcome back Christopher and so sorry to hear that 2017 was a trial for you.

I'd like to buy the Cliffe's Symphony No. 2. How can I acquire it? and, how much does it cost?

MusicSybarite, I have sent you a Personal Message (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php?action=pm) about this enquiry.

Thank you Mark!

I am late to the party, but Dr Fifield has just told me that he still has a few copies available of this wonderful work, if recently-joined members would be interested  He can be contacted at cgfifield@btinternet.com

Wow!
Chris has sent me the Cliffe CD, and I have just played it through for the first time,without yet reading the booklet notes (as if I was sampling a tasting menu from the famous Blind restaurant on the shores of Lake Zurich)
The opening movement puts me in mind of Delius as he composed in the 1880's. Then we get,I think,to the heart of the symphony in the slow movement, which brings to mind the Wagner of Tannhauser. We follow with a scherzo of dancing Raffian fairies. Then the noble finale, with its overtones of Rietz and a climax that Reinecke could have penned.
A marvellous symphony,probably the best one to be composed by an Englishman between Sullivan and Elgar.

I have mentioned before that Chris still has a handful of CDs of this must-have work,if anyone else is tempted

Hello - I have just discovered Cliffe, and very much like what I have heard. Obviously I thought to check on UC if there are further recordings and I came across this thread...does anyone know if there are any copies of this recording still available?

Christopher, I've PMed you about this.

Returning to this after a couple of years makes one realise anew that no British symphonist (that we know of) was writing anything like this in 1892 - certainly not Stanford or Parry, much as one admires their endeavours. It is very clearly influenced by Wagner (and maybe Bruckner) - apologies for repeating myself from eight years ago! I really admire Cliffe's ambition and, indeed, achievement. And now we really do need an established label to take this on and bring it before the wider public...

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. To me, this is a huge step down in terms of success from Cliffe's first symphony, which I really admire. Its material fails to sustain its considerable length, and if anything Cliffe's evident ambition with the piece works against him. Lots of things move but nothing really sticks. If we're talking about contemporaneous symphonies, I much prefer either of Edward German's pair over this one.

Last time I contacted Dr.Fifield earlier this year, he did have some copies left.  However, at about the same time, I received a massive car repair bill so didn't buy a copy.

I agree with Ilja about the relative merits of Cliffe's two symphonies. The Second lacks the spontaneity and individuality of the First and it is, as Alan writes, clearly influenced by Wagner which, though that may set it apart from contemporary British symphonies, was becoming common in continental Europe. It is certainly ambitious but arguably Cliffe over-reached himself.

I wonder how it would sound played by a fully professional orchestra, as Chris Fifield had at his disposal when making his astonishing recording of No.1.

I don't really want to compare the two symphonies; no.2 is an attempt to move well beyond no.1 in reach and idiom. I'm just not sure we have the evidence (yet) to write it off by comparison. But that's just my opinion - and I do think very highly of no.1.

By the way, the public made similar comparisons between Elgar' s 1st and his 2nd, which was received much more coolly because, they thought, it failed to reach the heights of its predecessor. Now, I love Elgar 1 and know it far better than Elgar 2, but I believe the latter is the greater work.

Just saying...and I'm probably wrong!

QuoteI wonder how it would sound played by a fully professional orchestra

That, and a good quality recording,  would certainly mean that the two works could be judged on an equal footing, I agree.

I'm doubtful, but it would certainly be great to have that recording.

Looking at Cliffe's output, my (entirely unresearched) impression is of a composer who, after a very strong start, experienced increasing problems to find inspiration for his music. Which perhaps explains why he stopped composing altogether relatively early.

Is Wikipedia right that there's only 3 years between these two symphonies? I was imagining decades from all this talk of a great falling-off...

The three-year gap is correct. His Violin Concerto dates from 1896 and shows absolutely no falling-off of inspiration. The issue is confined to the two symphonies and concerns what the composer was trying to achieve in No.2.

I'd forgotten about the Violin Concerto - what a fine piece that is.

I'm not all that fond of the concerto, but we'll put that down to my descent into grumpy old manhood and agree to disagree, I guess.

I was only trying to make the point that Cliffe did write some worthwhile music after his 1st Symphony. The jury's probably out as regards Symphony No.2, but my view is that we should reserve judgment on that until a fully professional recording is released.

Fair enough, and there are earlier examples (Stöhr's first symphony springs to mind) that show just how much a proper recording can lift a work.

... which is why I really hope someone can some day do justice to Rudorff's 2nd G major symphony.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly about that. We really do need to hear Rudorff's other symphonies.

Well, I am very happy that Chris Fifield has had the enterprise and dedication to record this work, as I am still of the personal view that this is the finest British symphony between Sullivan and Elgar. Maybe others would come to agree if it was taken up by a label such as cpo.

I don't think that would be my view - yet.

I agree with Ilja regarding Edward German and believe that he was the late-romantic future (along with Roger Quilter) that Britain should have continued to follow, not Cliffe. Cliffe's second symphony just feels bloated to me without much in the way of melody, and I don't think a professional recording would do much to change my view.

I wouldn't want to write off Cliffe 2 until it is recorded professionally. German's two symphonies are both splendid works, but less ambitious that either of Cliffe's symphonies; I'd also want to bring Arthur Hinton into the equation.

I emailed Mr Fifield to ask about it but still haven't get a response more than 20 days latter :-\

I'll PM anyone seeking to make contact with Mr Fifield.

So, if I pay any of you initial funders the price you paid, will any of you send me the recording? Since I don't know if anyone is willing to sell a second-hand copy
If the booklet is copied, I'll be more grateful.

Perhaps members can make contact via the PM facility? Thanks.

Quoteif I pay any of you initial funders the price you paid, will any of you send me the recording

I don't think we have the right to do that.

Just found out on youtube Cliffe 1st's German premiere by Gerd Müller-Lorenz. Another Ballade to savour (while the opening movement only grew on me when I revisit it after a period listening only to the Ballade)