Hi all,
In consequence of the "unsung female composer CD" thread on the recordings forum, I want to conduct a bit of a thought experiment with you, if you don't mind.
Submitting, purely for argument's sake, to the idea of an A-tier (Mozart/Bach/Beethoven/Brahms), B-tier (Mahler/Dvorak/etc.), and C-tier (most unsungs) of composers, what would it look like if we ignore male composers? Who would take those positions?
I am also asking because I do notice an increasing presence of female composers in concert programmes, but their choice appears to be mainly based on nationality: I've heard Jeanne Beyerman in the Netherlands, Lili Boulanger in France and Lucija Garuta in Lithuania, but much not outside their own countries of origin.
There's no 'A' tier female composer. Beyond that, well...
Clara Schumann and Louise Farrenc are the most well-known in my opinion. Although I don't think I would classify either as B-tier. Maybe Schumann.
Outside of the Romantic era (since you mentioned Bach/Mozart), I would say Hildegard of Bingen.
Marie Jaell, as well. She has also contributed in the realm of teaching technique with her pedagogical "touch" method literature and studies.
Two more albeit more recent names pop into mind. Ruth Gipps? And in Estonia, Ester Mägi is renowned but never heard her mentioned outside her country.
Dora Pejacevic, obviously.
You'll forgive me (I hope), but this thread threatens to be a very uninteresting and pointless list. So: contributions must be accompanied by reasons, please.
My intention (which admittedly could've been stated more explicitly) was not to rank female composers on the present iron repertory, but rather to suppose there was no such repertory and to have people exchange views on how the female composers we know would be received relative to one another.
For instance, I think there are certain works that possess a universal appeal - I am talking for instance about the Jaëll and Wieck concertos, the works of Dora Peijacevic (not a fan myself, but I can see why others are) and the Beach symphony. These are big-boned, accessible works suited for a modern concert hall, that have had time to gain a certain following. As more modern pieces to potentially gain such a following you could, for instance, include works by Tailleferre and Garuta. Hildegard von Bingen not so much I think - after all, old music has never had a particularly wide appeal, and Hildegard's pretty dense even compared to other old music examples.
I have no objection to the thread per se - but, as we've said in the past, it's only going to be of interest if contributers explain why they believe particular composers/works should be admitted to some sort of 'female canon'
For myself, I would rather set aside the issue of gender and concentrate on the quality of the music, whoever it is written by.
It is hard to look at composers and say who are 'A' tier or 'B' tier with out taking into consideration the time they lived and the instruments available to them. Looking at the period 1880 to 1900 I would say Amy Beach,is certainly near the top of the 'B'tier. Just comparing her symphony and piano concerto written during this period. They are certainly better than many, particularly the piano concerto. From a slightly later period of course is Dora Pejacevic who has already been mentioned. As regulars to this forum will know, I have researched a great many female composers and yet to come across an 'A' tier female composer.
I would tend to agree with you, Giles, re. A Tier female composers - but I would set the bar very high indeed for that: Bach; Handel; Mozart; Haydn; Beethoven; Schubert; Wagner; Richard Strauss... No female composer I know quite gets to that level - but there are a number who are pretty high up in the B Tier IMHO: apart from Beach and Pejacevic, I would include Louise Farrenc, Elinor Remick Warren, Ethel Smyth and Grace Williams. These are all fine craftswomen who can handle an orchestra skilfully, have a good grasp of form, their own personal voice and can write tunes.
QuoteNo female composer I know quite gets to that level
Leave out 'quite' and we're nearer reality.
Well, not really. When "that level" includes composers like Händel and Richard Strauss, you've made it easier.
Sorry, Eric, I can't think of any female composer within touching distance of either Handel or Strauss. In fact they'd be miles away in terms of standing. If Handel and Strauss (R.) aren't in Tier A, then it's Tier B+ and the best of the women would be another tier lower.
And with that, this is getting pretty silly.
For silliness, the blurb on the front cover of the June issue of the BBC's music magazine takes a bit of beating: "The Greatest Schumann".
( There's not even a question mark. ) Who is it? Clara, of course.
(http://cdn.classical-music.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/400px_wide/June19_1_0.jpg)
'Nuff said!
And perhaps we are expected to believe that Fanny was "The Greatest Mendelssohn", likewise. (Irrespective of the fact that, grammatically, it should be "greater" in both cases.)
But this is the BBC, so one shouldn't be surprised.
Well, I suppose we could include Arnold Mendelssohn and Georg and Camillo Schumann - then 'greatest' would be correct.
But I fear this thread is going nowhere fast...
Quote from: Ilja on Thursday 08 August 2019, 14:56
I've heard Jeanne Beyerman in the Netherlands, Lili Boulanger in France and Lucija Garuta in Lithuania, but much not outside their own countries of origin.
Lucija Garuta in Latvia surely...?
I do believe that even the assignment of A vs. B tier among male composers is a fools errand. IMO for example Strauss and Händel would be B, not even B plus. On the other hand Schumann and Berlioz would definitely be A. I am not even entirely clear what the criteria would be at any rate: Overall quality of the oeuvre? Work(wo)manship? Originality? Or negatively: Number of less than satisfactory works?
Leaving that problem aside I do think that the opinion that no woman is A ranking is self re-enforcing. If you believe that firmly no woman will ever qualify in your ears.
In fact, there is at least on A-tier female composer: Lera Auerbach. But since she is the best of all living (male & female) composers, she is well beyond the scope of this forum...
Sorry: this is degenerating into an exchange of opinions about categories which is going nowhere. I think we'll call a halt here.