London is the largest city in Europe and a cultural centre. With the closing of HMV's music store in Oxford Street/Bond Street, this leaves only one substantial HMV classical department in London + Harold Moore's. A sad state of affairs. Incidently HMV had not got the York Bowen Symphonies, they haven't had any new stock from CPO for months. There is a Decca range which is on offer but because the composers names are on the right hand side of the cover they are obscured by the special offer label. When I remonstrated with the staff they said it was an edict from the marketing department. Nuff said about poor management.
I've encountered so-called "Marketing Depts" like that before - most of them live in a world utterly remote from the public to whom they are supposed to be marketing a product. As a result they couldn't market a tart in a red light district!
I used to love travelling down to London for a recital (when I was a Stoke lad - Nottingham now) because I'd come early and explore the record shops - Harold Moores, Farringdons (whose lists I enjoyed receiving), MDC (Strand and Gt Russell str) and a second hand place by the Festival Hall (can't remember the name but it was upstairs, had sofas and would make offer you a cuppa). Now I pop into Moores and glance at HMV but hardly ever buy - most often just catch whatever concert it is and don't bother with the retailers.
The internet is a great, great tool (I have so much music - scores and recordings - that I never thought I'd get hold of) but it has had such a bad effect on retailers and the "marketing techniques" you mention can't be helping them.
Rob
Since I am miles from any store of note or size, I rely totally on the internet. Not quite the same thing, but it's usually cheaper and everything's available - somewhere. Do I care about the closure of physical stores? Not any more...
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 20 June 2011, 15:57
Since I am miles from any store of note or size, I rely totally on the internet. Not quite the same thing, but it's usually cheaper and everything's available - somewhere. Do I care about the closure of physical stores? Not any more...
I live in London but I, too, rely totally on the internet. I can't help feeling nostalgia for the days when record shops were owned or managed by people who cared about music and recordings, and the staff were knowledgeable and took a pride in giving good service. Which will tell you how old
I am.
I remember those days too, Lionel. However, they are long gone in my experience...
So do I. Some of those retailers must take a little responsibility for my love of serious music. Sic transit gloria mundi.
I'm saddened too to learn of the demise of all those wonderful retailers. In addition to a pint or two of that great cask aged ale which you folks are famous for, I loved coming to London to peruse the record shops for many treasures that were not available in Minnesota. Or anywhere else in the colonies. But yes, that excuse for a jaunt to the UK has disappeared forever, I fear.
Jerry
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 20 June 2011, 18:27
Some of those retailers must take a little responsibility for my love of serious music.
That's true in my case too; in those days many unsung composers were drawn to my attention by the assistants who came to know my tastes. I thought of looking through my collection of vinyl to count up how many LPs I had bought on their recommendations but it would have taken me all night. A cursory glance reveals a Melodiya recording of Arensky's 1st Symphony and 1st Suite, suggested by one assistant who knew I loved Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov. Others include Itzhak Perlman's recording of Goldmark's 1st Violin Concerto and Clive Lythgoe's of MacDowell's Sonata Eroica. I could go on (and on) but I won't.
With regard to the old London record shops, I wonder if anyone else remembers The Collector's Corner in Shaftsbury Avenue where I, as a young man in the late 40's & early 50's, spent many happy hours listening to the Lener and Aeolian string quartets playing late Beethoven on the old 78rpm records. The turntable was run by an electric motor but the sound reproduction was purely acoustic, coming from a giant horn around 2 feet in diameter, linked to a pick up arm, into whose head one inserted a triangular wooden stylus. sharpened by slicing off pieces at around 45 degrees with a special cutter. No doubt such a machine would itself be a collector's item these days if any of them survived.
Of course, two of the extra advantages of the internet these days are (a) to be able to read so many more opinions about music and reviews of recordings, and (b) to be able sample most recordings through sites like jpc and Amazon. These facilities have effectively replaced the knowledgeable shop assistant and his turntable.
And there are several fine US distributors that specialize in classical and have experienced, knowledgable people who are just as excited by music as we are. My three primary sources are
recordsinternational which is the place for new/obscure/hard-to-get repertoire.
archivmusic.com which has a vast amount of music, easy to find, frequent sales, and the ability to make OOP disks magically re-appear.
hbdirect.com which is a smaller operation, but their commitment to classics is noteworthy.
I used to miss the local record stores, but most of them cut their own throats by giving into pop/rock and driving the rest of us away. Yes, I miss physically browing the racks hoping to discover something new, but recordsinternational has easily replaced that. Of course, if you really like to browse, you can't do better than Berkshire Record Outlet (open weekends in summer) and especially Princeton Record Exchange which has cd racks that can take days to get through.
The situation on the other side of the pond similarly is disappointing.
In New York City we once had at least four Tower stores, a wonderful retailer called J&R Music, a couple of HMVs, the venerable and revered The Record Hunter, two Virgin stores and a number of others - including a few which handled used recordings.
Now - J&R's classical department is being downsized and that's the only one left. Academy Records (used discs) still exists but also has cut back on their stock of classical recordings.
Yes, the internet sites (don't forget a very good one called importcds.com) fill in very well - but there's something about flipping through the bins of CDs which never can be replicated by pointing and clicking.
Quotethere's something about flipping through the bins of CDs which never can be replicated by pointing and clicking
That's so true, and it's why I still call in at Harold Moore's and HMV whenever I'm in London, but never with the expectation of buying anything. Although I prefer downloads nowadays I do buy all my CDs using the internet for all the reasons which Alan has set out, plus the bonus of instant gratification!
Well, yes, London is losing its classical CD super stores but there is Gramex in Lower Marsh for a wide selection of 2nd hand, many very cheap.
For me, there is nothing as good as browsing in record stores, new or second hand and finding something that I have missed or it could be an impulse buy and going home and playing it. I get a real buzz from that.
For me that particular buzz disappeared when I saw what I would have to pay (i.e. in comparison to online prices); the only pleasure now derives from finding a true bargain at one of these stores. But then, I haven't lived within easy reach of a decent large retailer for thirty years...
Yeah, once online shopping became easier, I mainly only bought at sales (like Borders common buy 3 get one free types)....I would often like the BROWSING factor though, especially in the case to see what pakaging looks like in some cases, of all thing....
Online purchases are especially compelling pricewise if you are just doing mp3 downloads. For instance I just paid $7.99 US for the downloads of the two Henk Badings symphonies CD's on CPO. The cheapest I can find the physical CD's for is $16.98 US.
I used to wax nostalgic about browsing for music, but the reality is that I'm getting older and the schlep over to the last record store left in the area where I work (Academy Records in NYC) is too far to be worth the possiility of coming back empty handed.
Quote from: oldman on Friday 24 June 2011, 21:48
Online purchases are especially compelling pricewise if you are just doing mp3 downloads. For instance I just paid $7.99 US for the downloads of the two Henk Badings symphonies CD's on CPO. The cheapest I can find the physical CD's for is $16.98 US.
The site www.importcds.com has the Badings discs for about $11.00 each.
http://www.importcds.com/Search/Results?type=18&searchtext=henk+badings (http://www.importcds.com/Search/Results?type=18&searchtext=henk+badings)
Quote from: oldman on Friday 24 June 2011, 21:48I used to wax nostalgic about browsing for music, but the reality is that I'm getting older and the schlep over to the last record store left in the area where I work (Academy Records in NYC) is too far to be worth the possiility of coming back empty handed.
Ain't it the truth? Unrewarded steps become too valuable to waste at a certain time of life - even to search through the (diminishing) stock at Academy.
Well $11 plus shipping of course.
I miss Alldirect.com, had most $18 discs for under $12 and free shipping for over $99.
I received a digital download of Baddings 4th and 5th symphonies. I realize that Henk doesn't really fall into our respite but I'm trying to obtain a little more information about this Dutch composer who what little I did read about was in sympathy with the Nazis and his music was banned in the Netherlands. Of course when you get a download now from Naxos only the tracklisting and cover art are included.
Tom
QuoteOf course when you get a download now from Naxos only the tracklisting and cover art are included.
I've not checked all Naxos CDs, but, even if you don't download them, you have access to the more-or-less extended leaflet on naxos.com. Check the "About this recording" link on the individual CD page.
will give it a try but this is a CPO not a Naxos recording
Quotewill give it a try but this is a CPO not a Naxos recording
CPO digital downloads are often available from eclassical, including booklets in PDF, as is the case with the new Badings release:
http://www.eclassical.com/shop/17115/art20/4970720-88dc8d-761203766925.pdf (http://www.eclassical.com/shop/17115/art20/4970720-88dc8d-761203766925.pdf)
This worked fine and I'll keep this site for future reference.
It is not only London. It is everywhere---Vienna, New York, Chicago. The world is changing and the internet has killed many things besides brick and mortar CD shops. For example, how many people use travel agents to book flights, how many people use hard copy encyclopaedias versus Wikipedia etc, etc...
To give you some idea of music store changes, we used to search for sheet music in London. At that time, there was something called the 'Map of the Music Shops in the West End of London'. Look on this list and weep, only a few are still with us:
Boosey & Hawkes on Regent St, Chappells on Bond St, Schott on Marlborough, Universal Editions on Marlborough St, Edition Peters on Marlborough, Chester, Novello & Schirmer on Frith St, Lewington on Shaftsbury, Zwemmers on Litchfield, Howarths on Chiltern St, Chimes on several streets, Bosworths on Heddon St, Travis & Emerry on Cecil Court, Footes on Golden Sq, United Music Publishers on Rivington St, Folke on Regent St, Early Music Shop on Manningham Lane, Colliseum on St Martin's Lane, St Cecilia on Eversholt St, Parker on Chiltern St and Foyles copious selection.
In Vienna, it is the same. Doblinger's is still there but their wonderful Catacombs are gone. So are Robaschek and several other small shops. Doblinger's selection is limited compared to the past but at least they let you browse now rather than sending some poor soul in the back to find what you want. CD shops and selections are down. There is still Gramola am Graben and one or two others that are limping along. Prague is doing slightly better. In New York, Schirmers several shops and Padelsons are gone. In Chicago no more Lyon & Healy and Carl Fischer only one shop left, as for CDs almost all the superstores are gone. I could go on and on.
One can only hope that the internet will continue to preserve what limited opportunities we classical music afficionados have. It is our duty to support them or they too will disappear.
As for knowledgeable sales assistants, they haven't existed almost anywhere for a long time. Whether it is computers, restaurants, clothes etc, the buyer must come armed with the requisite knowledge of the products for which he or she searches because odds are, you will not get it from your sales assistant (one wonders what kind of assistance is on offer)
I am very grateful that I lived during a time when there were real record stores that you could go in and browse, read jackets, even listen. And there were regular customers that you got to know and could talk about new recordings with. Buying from Records International, Amazon, JPC are all fine and good (the selection is amazing) but it's just not the same. Recently a young colleague came to the house to borrow some music. He had never seen the cd library - all 12000 or so. He spent hours going through seeing things he never knew existed. A lot of composers he had never heard of, unsurprisingly. He had to admit that using Pandora has left a huge hole in his background. Hang on to your CDs and LPs - take the monastic option. They will be valuable to someone, someday. I just hope they don't stop making cd players!
They stopped making vhs players/recorders. Right now they are selling for under $10.00 at the thrift store were I work and I'm throwing away 10-15 a week. It doesn't pay to fix one and that being said extremely difficult to repair unless one wants to lose money at it. If your going to continue with CD's even after production stops I'd be prepared. I don't think it will have the same fate as vinyl as the downloads are far too similar to cd's.
Tom
You can always play your CDs on a DVD player...
sdtom, you can get all the complete booklets for Naxos and Marco Polo CDs (and many other labels as well) through the Naxos Music Library. My local public library has a subscription, so I can use my library card number from home to access all the cds, cover, art, complete booklets, etc. Perhaps your public library in Minneapolis has the Naxos Music Library...
Just checked the Naxos Music Library. The cpo Badings disc is there together with the complete booklet.
As to Doblinger, is that the same as the music publisher (Doblinger-Verlag) (mostly modern and I think also modern editions of earlier music, I think, but some very good music in-_my_-opinion (Wellesz, others) published by them), or is the name a coincidence?
Not all digital CPO booklets are complete - as in some say booklets and just have the 1st 3 pages of the booklet viz the cover and track listings. This happened with 2 of my downloads - Georg Schumann Symphony and the Graener Symphony.
This thread reminds me of Chinese whispers. I started this tread groaning about retail, and now we are on to SSds and transistors. It might be helpful for this to be on another thread.
I feel it is an interesting discussion that should be continued but it is out of our remit. Perhaps Alan and Mark will permit us to start up a new topic.
Moderator's Note: The discussion which moved into consideration of the various options for long term storage of music collections can now be found here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,5959.0.html).