Thank you very much for all the fine material uploaded here!
I have been enjoying music by Nicodé and Kaun, among others.
Does anyone have any orchestral music by Dimitrie Cuclin (1885-1978) to upload?
Thanks.
/Anders
Hi Anders
I have symphony no.11 of Cuclin.
I uploaded it Romanian music thread now.
Please wait a moment.
I wish you will enjoy it.
All best
A.S
the movements so far as I know them of symphony 11 by Cuclin are - well, just that the first movement and finale are both Allegro vivo, and that the second movement and third movement are clearly the scherzo and slow movement :)
I have a broadcast tape of his also quite fine and memorable symphony 9 (A minor) somewhere but my digitized version of it is in one track, I am not sure if I have Mac software to subdivide that anywhere, but will see if I can do so, set up an account and upload that as I do keep saying I shall.
I have his Symphony No.13, I will post it next time.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Sunday 07 August 2011, 17:30
I have a broadcast tape of his also quite fine and memorable symphony 9 (A minor) somewhere but my digitized version of it is in one track, I am not sure if I have Mac software to subdivide that anywhere, but will see if I can do so, set up an account and upload that as I do keep saying I shall.
In my view (but others may have different opinions on that) it's not really necessary to subdivide a piece into different sections, my own LP transfers almost all consist of one track only (sometimes even with merging two sides) – I rather do the splitting work when burning them on CD via Nero.
According to Mike Herman's splendid discographies, there is one further Cuclin symphony which has appeared on LP, it's No. 16, but I have not come across this LP so far.
http://www.musicweb-international.com/Balkan_discography/ECE_Balkan_Symphonies1.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Balkan_discography/ECE_Balkan_Symphonies1.htm)
Regards,
Holger
... it may well be necessary from my end of things...
Cuclin symphonies on LP included to my knowledge 11 in A-flat minor, 13 in F (1980s LP?), maybe 16 also, don't know. A brief choral work has appeared on a CD according to Worldcat (not, I think, the same scherzo for chorus that seems to have, also according to Worldcat, appeared on an LP.) The only works of his I've heard so far are syms. 9 and 11, though I have seen sym. 14 in E minor in score. (If one searches for "Cuclin" on Worldcat one will come across a misleading claim that a CD of Cuclin's music has been released. Trace this back to its source and one finds that this is a miscataloguing of a University of British Columbia Library LP- many of their LPs show up in Worldcat as CDs for some reason. Caveat, there.)
Most enjoyable! Cuclin is an interesting composer to get to know. Thanks for sharing.
/Anders
Symphony 13- thanks!
A vote of thanks for Cuclin's 9th, which I downloaded after chancing upon this site last week - been after it for a while now.
I listened through it on Friday night at the tail end of last week, and thoroughly enjoyed it (in spite of a fair poor performance in the recording, which is about as under-rehearsed as the two Cuclin LPs I've managed to get hold of - 11 & 13). So, on Saturday, I decided to have a sit down and listen to the second movement with the score in front of me - I've had the score for 12 months, and the first hearing of the symphony on Friday pointed towards the second movement as my initial favourite.
Completely shocked, then, to discover that the recording has been made from a VERY heavily edited version of the score! :o There are at least two fairly chunky cuts, though I've only had time to definitively identify the first of these... The second movement starts on page 83, and at 21m21s on the single mp3 recording, it reaches "five bars before figure 21" on page 132. The melodic line continues uninterrupted, but digging through the score, I can identify the continuation of the melody as occuring at "11 bars before figure 36" on page 173. Some 41 pages. I reckon that's a cut of about 8 minutes of music. There's certainly another cut later in the movement too (though not as much). If there's anything like a similar approach in the other movements, an "uncut" 9th would seemingly be a fairly massive work approaching Mahlerian proportions. A very rough estimate based on bar count and approximate tempi when I got the score suggested the whole work should be something in the 55 to 60 minute region, so the 40-ish minutes of the version posted here would suggest that it's probably been chopped up quite a lot. Which also leads me to wonder if the 11th and 13th are particularly "complete" either... Nice to hear any of the 9th, of course, but knowing it's incomplete is a huge disappointment.
Wasn't aware of this re the 9th (I've only so far seen a score of one of Cuclin's works, a symphony in E minor and not recorded to my knowledge in any form to date - no.14? )
Thank you. (I am of two minds or so re cuts, having great respect for composer-authorized ones as having a purpose especially when they are as well-constructed, and meant to create a still-functioning work, as Liszt's seem to have been, for example, but am not offhand given to suspect that this was authorized by the composer. Might have been, it's true; I need to learn enough of more languages so that I could read what -is- available about Cuclin and others of my interest rather than waiting for dribs and drabs to make it to the few languages I do know a little of- I digress. Thank you again.)
Thank you, Doctorpresume, for this information! I had read something to that effect somewhere in the past, but your note was the first I'd heard the cuts were so drastic and extensive. I'll be curious to learn more, if anyone is able to provide additional background.
I should have a bit of time to do a bit more work on the score at the weekend, so I'll try and draw up a complete list of the cuts!
Right, this is quite an epic post, because there's a lot to list (and if some of the information doesn't quite tally up with my original identification of the first cut in the second movement, it's probably because I didn't have time to take care over my notes first time round! ::)).
Anyway, I've spent most of today poring over the score for Cuclin's 9th symphony, and I can report the full extent of the cuts made to the score as used in the recording posted on this forum. The timecodes I use refer to the single track of the complete symphony, I haven't split the recording down into separate tracks for each movement...
1st movement (pages 7 to 82 of the published score):
1: at 4m26s, at six bars after figure 9 (on page 27), the recording jumps to figure 16 (page 42). This amounts to a cut of 57 bars.
2: at 9m29s, at figure 27 (page 65), it jumps to figure 30 (page 76). This amounts to a cut of 29 bars.
The complete movement runs to 340 bars, of which only 254 have been recorded. The duration of those 254 bars comes to 11m03s. Assuming the average tempo of the missing bars to be the same as those recorded, an approximate duration of the whole movement would be 14m48s.
2nd movement (pages 83 to 219):
1: at 21m29s, at six bars before figure 21 (page 132), it jumps to eleven bars before figure 36 (page 175). This amounts to a cut of 276 bars (!).
2: at 22m49s, at figure 39 (page 184), it jumps to figure 49 (page 212). This amounts to a cut of 159 bars.
The complete movement runs to 965 bars, of which only 530 have been recorded. The duration of those 530 bars comes to 12m40s. Assuming the average tempo of the missing bars to be the same as those recorded, an approximate duration of the whole movement would be 23m04s.
3rd movement (pages 220 to 283):
Now, this one gets a bit messy!
1: at 26m12s, at figure 2 (page 223) it jumps to figure 4 (page 225). This amounts to a cut of 40 bars.
2: at 27m57s, at three bars after figure 5 (page 226), it jumps to ten bars after figure 5 (page 226). This amounts to a cut of 7 bars (I dunno, they make a 276 bar cut in the 2nd movement and then a 7 bar cut here – weird!).
3: at 29m21s, at one bar before figure 6 (page 229), it jumps to.... Well, this is where it gets messy!At this point, there are only 54 seconds of the movement left on the recording, and yet somehow, we're only at the top of page 229, and the movement still has another 54 pages to go! Trying to work out what's what in the remainder of the movement was beyond me – I can spot fragments here and there, but the parallel material doesn't match at all. It looks like pretty much the whole of the movement on the recording has been a massive cut-and-paste job whacked together from fragments of the score somehow made to fit together. At least it all seems to get back together in time for the closing seven or eight bars, though.
Anyway, the complete movement runs to 390 bars. Up to the cut at 29m21s, we've had 143 bars of score, of which only 96 bars have been recorded. Assuming the average tempo of the missing bars to be the same as those recorded (and this is likely to be more inaccurate than the earlier estimates!), an approximate duration of the whole movement would be 22m24s.
4th movement (page 284 to 415):
1: at 34m20s, at figure 9 (page 306), it jumps to eight bars after figure 9 (page 309). This, obviously, amounts to a cut of 8 bars.
2: at 35m12s, at figure 11 (page 312), it jumps to figure 13 (page 315). This amounts to a cut of 17 bars.
3: at 36m15s, at figure 15 (page 318), it jumps to figure 30 (page 369). This amounts to a cut of 312 bars.
4: at 37m25s, at figure 31 (page 373), it jumps to figure 38 (page 390). This amounts to a cut of 157 bars.
5: at 37m58s, at figure 40 (page 395), it jumps to figure 42 (page 399). This amounts to a cut of 26 bars. And that's the final cut, the remaining sixteen pages of the score play out intact!
The complete movement runs to 888 bars, of which only 368 have been recorded. The duration of those 368 bars comes to 9m26s. Assuming the average tempo of the missing bars to be the same as those recorded, an approximate duration of the whole movement would be 22m45s.
If we tot up those durations, an estimate for the duration of the uncut symphony comes out at 83 minutes, which really is quite a difference from the recording as we have it at just a few seconds shy of 40 minutes! Of course, I wouldn't necessarily take that estimate as a particularly accurate estimate, but treated as a ball-park figure it's a good guide to the extreme cuts that have been made.
Hope that information is interesting (it was a fascinating exercise to compile it all!), and of course let's hope that one day we'll get to hear the full 83 minute epic!
All the best.
Doctor P.
Damn, haven't seen that level of sheering outside of Gliere's 3rd....
Fascinating!
Thank you for your musicological efforts, Doctor P!
I think my account must have been deleted last week (certainly I didn't do it myself!).
Anyway, I've re-registered, and want to return to Cuclin for the benefit of anyone here who might be interested in the following:
Cuclin's 16th!!! (http://www.cdandlp.com/item/2/0-1401-0-1-0/114976686/elenescu-conductor-conducts-cuclin.html%5B/url)
I haven't got the disposable cash right now to pick this up, but figured that someone here might want to grab it while it's there... (it's the only time I've ever seen a copy for sale anywhere).
A million thanks to those members - you are ALL heroes to me! - for those marvellous " monumental " symphonies by Cuclin.
Anyone have a recording of his No.12.... I believe it lasts just over 6 hours!
No idea if it's been performed...
I am absolutely amazed that there are so many fans of the music of Cuclin. I have written to various companies (notably nAXOS) hoping that someone will release some of his music. To see the 9th and piano concerto here just blew me away. Also, just discovered the two cantatas by Miaskovsky which I never thought I'd hear in my lifetime. I could go on and on and say how much joy UNSUNG COMPOSERS has brought to me in the past two weeks since I discovered this site. Thanks so much!
Mal
You are welcome. Glad to have you on board.
I cannot get the Cuclin 9th to record. Is there something wrong with the download? I am a real Cuclin fan and have no idea how to add this to my list...any help out there. 5th graders are better with computers than I am! Malito
The download plays ok for me.
Do you mean that you are having trouble downloading the file?
I have the Cuclin 16th (Triumful Pacii) but I have no idea how to upload it. I made a copy for A.S. and hope he will make it available! Malito
OK! I will upload it soon ;)
Stunning for me.Hardly someone here in Romania remembers Cuclin-and of course I speak about musicians.I think that you won't be able to find more Cuclin recordings.AFAIK no international label as CPO,Naxos or Marco Polo recorded it.Secondly,one does not play his music.It's better to have a Tchaikovsky symphony than a Cuclin one.Finally there are no recordings in Romania.He was banned by the communists-he was a member of a fascist party and also he was a very free and opened minded person.In the early 50's he was for 2 years in a labor camp.He was then.65 yers old.I use to say he is a kind of Romanian Sorabji.In a way he knew that he has no posterity.I read somewhere that he wrote his works painstakingly:his manuscripts are clear,lucid,clean and the measure bars are drawn with a ruler.How could he belive that a six hour symphony could be played,let it alone in a poor communist Romania?
Here http://www.estcomp.ro/eminescu/cuclin.html (http://www.estcomp.ro/eminescu/cuclin.html) you can find translations he made from the poetry of Mihai Eminescu,Romania's national poet.
Quote from: Jacky on Friday 17 February 2012, 21:51I use to say he is a kind of Romanian Sorabji
Why and on what specific grounds?
Well,for the fact that he wrote a music that is virtually unperformable-a six hours symphony for example.It's a very peculiar kind of music It's not the problem of playing or listening but that the music ilustrates a system of thinking,which,instead of being written, is composed.It's music for the sake of music,in a way.
I couldn't disagree more. OK, there is supposedly the 12th symphony which is between 4 and 6 hours from what I hear but who has heard it or seen it performed? The 1st symphony is an early work but shows the future Cuclin in his symphonies, the 9th has delightful moments, the 11th is really a lot of fun, the 16th is beautiful and triumphant especially in its closing pages. Only the 13th is a bit boring. I have all these works and most of them are not helped by Electrecord's terrible sound. Also, I don't care about politics, just the music and I happen to like Cuclin's music.
Quote from: Jacky on Friday 17 February 2012, 21:51
Stunning for me.Hardly someone here in Romania remembers Cuclin...
But then, isn't the "arts college" in Cuclin's home town of Galati named after him? I don't think educational establishments tend to get named after people no-one regards as worthy of being remembered, or even who were
persona non grata in the eyes of the state.
If anything, I suspect Cuclin's apparent obscurity is mostly down to a sort of "wrong place wrong time" situation. Let's be honest, his music is a tad conservative (I don't mean that as a criticism!), and if we consider the case of Kabalevsky in relation to Shostakovich, perhaps that might go some way to explaining why Cuclin has fallen out of favour. Also, I suspect, the apparent lack of availabilty of scores might have something to do with it. When I first encountered Cuclin's name a little over 18 months ago, I did a whole heap of research on him, and could only find evidence of the physical existence of a mere handful of scores in libraries around the world (well, lbraries with a web presence, at least!). Even the USA's Library of Congress database (the world's biggest library) only had two or three references to him; and a work colleague's partner was recently in Romania on business and I asked him to see if he could find any scores in Romania, and he returned empty handed. In some ways, that absence of scores is not dissimilar from the position Sorabji's music was in some 30 years ago (a handful of published scores that started to finally sell out after 40 or 50 years in print as an ironic consequence of a growing interest in his music), except unlike Sorabji, Cuclin hasn't yet acquired any indefatigable champions to doggedly work on his music in spite of a general lack of commercial interest. If Cuclin had people like Ogdon, Powell, Ullen and Bowyer striving to make his music better known, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now!
Unfortunately, we don't, and all we've currently got are the old Electrecord records, which really aren't very good. Enough of the quality of the music shines out, I think, to show it's worth exploring, but the sound quality and the performances are terrible. Particularly in the 13th, which I think is one of the worst performances of any work committed to vinyl I've ever come across. I respectfully disagree with Malito about it being a boring work - I think it sounds like it's got potential, but that record is simply terrible, and doesn't really allow for a fair assessment of the work.
Anyway, thanks for Malito and AS for making the 16th available - about to download and give it a spin.
The New York Public Library Lincoln Center Research Division keeps changing its policies I think but they do have his symphony 14 in E minor in score I think (the E minor I'm definite about, the number I'd have to double-check; I skimmed it awhile back. It--much of that part of the library, I mean- may require advance request-before-visit now in a way that it did not then and could just turn in small pieces of paper and usually retrieve scores to peruse etc. ...)
Dmitrie Cuclin symphonies ........ wonderful music EVERYONE SHOULD HEAR...
BEETHOVEN LIVES IN 13 AND 16
A lot of Cuclin was posted in the downloads section, under the old remit (now archived), and much was subsequently loaded at the Art-Music Forum, but would you regard them as "romantic" works, according to the current UC definition? I think not.
Cuclin clearly rejected all forms of musical avant-gardism:
http://www.icr.ro/bucharest/freaks-outlaws-25-2005/dimitrie-cuclin.html (http://www.icr.ro/bucharest/freaks-outlaws-25-2005/dimitrie-cuclin.html)
Some of his music therefore fits quite comfortably within the stylistic framework of UC - as one might expect of a composer who held that music had come to an end with d'Indy at the beginning of the 20th century.
The issue for me is not necessarily Cuclin's style, but whether his music - with all its quasi-philosophical huffing and puffing - is really worth listening to. To me it all sounds very worthy, but the spark of true inspiration is missing.
There: that'll start a debate, no doubt...
Hmm, interesting. I ignored Cuclin the first time around and can't comment now as I have no time in the next few days when I can listen to music properly. Definitely a case of listen first and talk afterwards, but he does seem to have been a doggedly conservative character.
The music's caught in a Schola Cantorum time-warp - absolutely no threat whatsoever. However, it's just dull, dull, dull...
Oh, we'll that's encouraging! :-\
Doubtless the response of an unadventurous soul, but from what I've read there doesn't seem much here to make the heart skip a beat. Besides, if there is anything likely to firmly put me off a composer it is being told (in capitals) that Beethoven lives on.
Hrm. The fellow who sent me the tapes years ago was of an at least slightly different opinion, finding in each work by Cuclin he heard at least something very surprising (I think I can hear what he means, some of the things in the first movement of the 11th symphony, 2nd theme group, say), but while I enjoy and am taken with the music more than the growing consensus, that statement is not in itself an unusual recommendation :)
(I remain curious about that lengthy choral symphony- if only to first see some of it in ms or in synthesized sound, as has been done with another large choral symphony perhaps unlikely to be performed soon "live" with effects that I at least have liked very much...)
Haven't heard his first symphony, so couldn't comment on that one.
Quote from: JollyRoger on Monday 15 April 2013, 18:00
Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Monday 15 April 2013, 13:45
Doubtless the response of an unadventurous soul, but from what I've read there doesn't seem much here to make the heart skip a beat. Besides, if there is anything likely to firmly put me off a composer it is being told (in capitals) that Beethoven lives on.
Personal slams are childish and unwanted here, but yes, I'm a stogy old fool, unadventurous and boring is exactly what I am about. I suggest you should not listen to any more of Cuclin's music, cheap thrills are quite abundant to make your heart beat wildly...
This is all quite unnecessary. There was no 'personal slam' at all in Peter's post. And it is quite unwarranted to suggest that it might be a good idea to stop listening to Cuclin's rather dogged music and seek cheaper thrills elsewhere.
Let's pursue this debate without recourse to personal remarks; let's also not be surprised - or offended - when someone disagrees with our opinion.
I had a listen to No. 1. It's not well served by the performance: tempos are pulled about horribly, especially in the first movement, and the playing is rather insecure, particularly the brass. But beyond that, I do not get the impression of a composer in command of his material. The orchestration is frankly rather poor, and he doesn't seem able to develop his ideas organically. There is too much "here's an idea ... Oh and here's another one".
All the same, I'll try the later ones as well.
I still thought the earliest one we even _had_ was no.9 (1949, but the recording is -seriously- cut), preceded maybe by the piano concerto (1939, but maybe revised). We do have symphony no.11 of 1950, but there's no mistaking that for symphony no.1 of 1910 (which again I haven't heard, I admit :)).
The idioms would likely sound 40 years apart, at a guess. Even for Cuclin. Even Myaskovsky in 1950 sounds a lot different from Myaskovsky in 1908 (original version of his symphony 1, I think; some other works) (though in different ways than those in which other composers do!)
Well, to me, Cuclin is a mystery. Despite all the evidence of his intellectual and artistic ability, every time I listen to his symphonies I can't help thinking that he was devoid of any real musical creativity (like a chef who can only follow a recipe). Now that I need to explain! ;D
To me, his symphonies (I have listened to Nos.1, 9, 11, 13 and 16) sound as if he sat down and thought "now what shall I get the orchestra to do next? I know, I'll put in a Beethoven-like passage with lots of timpani and drama – we can let that run and repeat itself a few times; OK that's five mniutes done, now what next – ah some soulful strings in unison – OK that's another minute or two gone....ooh, now, I haven't had a plaintive flute passage yet so I'll do that next...." and so on, and on, and on. The result is that they sound like sound bites glued together, masquerading as whole works.
Perhaps not surprisingly, I'm not convinced that he is really a romantic. Rather, he uses and abuses the romantic idiom in order to create musical effects, and at times does the same with post-romantic idioms. Take, for example, the sweeping section for violins and violas in the middle of the first movement of the 13th symphony – heard in isolation it's attractive, conventional romanticism – but in the context of the symphony it's just another transient passage that has no relationship to the music which surrounds it; it disappears under a welter of fugue-like writing which suddenly stops for another dose of romantic writing led by the horns – which repeatedly stops equally suddenly in favour of more fugues; it goes nowhere and seems to serve no purpose. Later in mid-symphony there's an extended romantic section reminiscent of Walton's Shakespeare writing, it meanders along in the same vain for some time but suddenly (in a brief show of avant gardism ) the strings interject with some violence – but it's just another 'effect'. The final movement crashes along, "huffing and puffing", in quasi-Brahmsian finale mode.But it's all very superficial and meandering. These passages seem to me to say nothing but "listen, I can write passages like this! ... and this! ... and this! You want a Brahmsian crescendo or some Beethovenian storminess –well listen to this!" To be brutal, for me the result is a rather childish pastiche, the romantic and post-romantic elements connected only insofar as they happen to appear in the same manuscript. Fortunately, I can't imagine what it would be like to sit through his 6-hour long 12th symphony!
Maybe his style in some of them is in part due to the expectations of the communist authorities in Romania, with which he had come into conflict. Nos 5-20 were all composed post-war, and the date given for his 13th coincides with his detention in a labour camp. It might be why his pre-war piano concerto is a different matter altogether. It's far less conventional than his symphonies, unequivocally a twentieth century work, with extensive (and I imagine difficult) passages, often for piano alone, characterised by powerful, often unpredictable, rhythms, and repeated and extended dissonances. There are dabs of derivative romanticism here and there, but for me this is by far the most imaginative and effective work of Cuclin's that I've heard.
It seems to me that there is far less to Cuclin than meets the eye.
Semloh pretty well describes what I felt about the first symphony.
I trust that everyone agrees that music is worthless unless it is shared.
My intentions as a Cuclin advocate seemed valid as I considered sharing my first thoughts on this music to be of some merit.
Hindsite being 20/20 I should have waited.
While I did expect some positive feedback, I completely mistaken..nearly all responders found Cuclin's music to be of no value and even repugnant to some. And this from members whose knowledge and opinions I value highly.
I'll keep it in mind that musical opinions are subjective judgements, and we all see (and hear) the world differently.
I did appreciate the experience and knowledge gained from this thread from which I will now exit.
No need to exit the conversation at all. I for one am thoroughly grateful to you for having opened up the topic, even if I have disagreed with your assessment of Cuclin's music.
I'd love to join in the conversation about the first symphony, but it's the one work in the general conversation I know I haven't heard or seen. Is there a recording of it somewhere, may I ask?... Symphony no.1, 1910...
No one's confusing the 11th symphony with it or something? Or one of the others? Or maybe no.20, since semioh mentions having listened to nos. 1 and 11 but not to no.20? (And no.20 was after all first posted with its number, in Romanian, not as "no.20", which was elucidated in the discussion section, not in the primary, downloads, section. So there was room for confuzzlement. Hrm... )
(Apparently the last time I asked this, a while ago, it either got lost in the flow, or people thought I was being my usual, jokey self. So I ask again...)
To my knowledge only the piano concerto, and symphonies 9, 11, 13, 16 and 20- I think... have been uploaded.
Try here for starters, Eric:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoRlVZJ0Q0A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoRlVZJ0Q0A)
Number 1 is available on the Youtube Channel in the original post, as well as number 11, but you have to hunt around for the individual movements. It is certainly indebted to Miaskovsky, and has an unusual structure of slow-fast-fast-fast, and I think this is real and not just the movement numbering is mixed up (though I have not seen the score).
It's worth reiterating here that identifying weaknesses in Cuclin's music (or anyone else's) doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed. It would be a terrible world where one could only ever listen to masterpieces.
Well said indeed.
ah, thanks. I didn't cast my net widely enough there...
Number 13 seems to me a rather more successful work. It's still a very bad performance. I feel there is much more of a sense of development throughout the work than with the first symphony, that links the episodes together - mostly. Some of the transitions are badly played, and others one suspects would challenge much better performers. And some sections sound rather trite, especially the quasi-fugal section towards the end of the finale.
It no longer sounds anything like Miaskovsky; in fact it is much more 19th Century leaning than the 1st symphony. It would certainly be interesting to hear what a good conductor and orchestra could make of it.
Agreed. The YouTube performances are pretty awful.
I don't know how typical of Cuclin's output is his Symphony No.1, and I'm loath to just jump on a Cuclin-bashing bandwagon but, having listened to the work on YouTube, I'm afraid that I could hear little of merit in it. The kindest description of this work would be "episodic", although "repetitively episodic" is nearer the mark. I really couldn't detect any real symphonic thought, any development or organic growth in the piece, just a series of sometimes attractive, but generally unrelated sections, stitched together and re-used. I can quite see why some find it attractive music, because some of the sounds he makes, some of the textures he conjures up, some of the tunes he writes are appealing. But for me, there's nothing more. Wasn't it Wagner who accused Meyerbeer of using "effects without causes"? He could have been writing about Cuclin, on the evidence of his First Symphony. Should I try some of the others?
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 17 April 2013, 22:38Should I try some of the others?
Yes. But don't hold your breath...
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 17 April 2013, 22:38Should I try some of the others?
Always worth trying, since taste is a personal matter, but I agree with Alan, so if you are prepared to forsake the romantic for half an hour, I'd try the piano concerto. :)
This Romanian composer has already been discussed on this forum, but there's no topic fully dedicated to him yet, so I am opening one up.
Dimitrie Cuclin was born in 1885 in Galaţi, Romania, and he died in 1978, of complications of a heart disease he apparently contracted in the communist work camps in the early 50s.
His father, Constantin Cuclin, was a music teacher from Bessarabia who emigrated to Romania.
Cuclin was a student of his father at first, then he went to France with a scholarship he obtained in Romania, where was a student of Charles-Marie Widor and of Vincent d'Indy.
He has composed 20 symphonies (which are, according to Wikipedia, monumental.) Some of them are really long, for example the 12th Symphony lasts 6 hours (the manuscript is 1235 pages). The manuscript of his 10th Symphony apparently is 616 pages (could this suggest it lasts 3 hours? I haven't found the score anywhere, so I can't be sure of it, but let's work with this length for now.)
He's also composed some large operas of 3-5 acts, all with his own libretti, and chamber music and lots of vocal music.
He was also a philosopher, poet, writer, translator, musicologist, and teacher.
The only (legal) recordings of his works that I'm aware of are of his 11th, 13th & 16th symphonies, which have appeared on LP on the Romanian label Electrecord (conducted by Emanuel Elenescu & Mircae Basarab), and apparently a Violin Sonata has also appeared on LP, on this same label.
All in all, this individual has done a lot in his lifetime and is definitely worth more attention!
I'm unsure whether all of Cuclin's music is suitable for discussion at UC. Symphony No.1 sounds promising, though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoRlVZJ0Q0A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoRlVZJ0Q0A)
I think he's suitable for discussion though, because he was influenced by Charles-Marie Widor & Vincent d'Indy and the fact that he rejected avant-garde, and even took a hostile attitude towards it. I've also had several listens to his 11th symphony many times (because I like it a lot) and it doesn't sound anything avant-garde to me. The LP is a bit old though, from 1967.
Also, there aren't that many composers that composed works with such extreme lengths (a symphony of 6 hours, that's not something you encounter a lot), so at least for some people this might be a very interesting composer to research further!
And an interesting development as well, which has become worth mentioning: some people of the church from the town where my grandparents live go to Romania a few times a year to bring clothes for the less fortunate. As far as I know they will go again in June, and so I told my grandmother about this composers, and so she passed on a note to them about this composer and what I know. I gave my e-mail in it as well, so perhaps around June or July I might get some more information about where the scores of these symphonies might be (or not if I'm unlucky!) and if it might be possible to arrange a recording, because in the near future I am planning to set up my own label for forgotten classical music. Let's hope this will yield some interesting results!
Rejection of the avant-garde doesn't necessarily make a composer suitable for discussion here, I'm afraid. Cuclin's PC, for example, would be beyond our remit...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKX_9Xjp8es (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKX_9Xjp8es)
...as well as being unrelentingly turgid!
So, before further discussion of his music is proposed, attention needs to be paid to date of composition and style, taking into account UC's stated remit - which we ask contributors to read carefully before posting:
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3681.0.html (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3681.0.html)
By the way: there has been a thread dedicated to Cuclin, so I'm merging the two...
Cuclin definitely had talent, though, Alan.
His music is ideal for accompanying television advertisements. ;)
Indeed. Some of those YT recordings may have been first posted over here.
Guess I overlooked the old topic then.
I understand that perhaps his later works might not fall within this remit.
Interestlingly, yesterday I discovered a list of his works. I'll put it up here for analysis (it's in Romanian, but it's not always that hard to translate though.)
http://crispedia.ro/dimitrie-cuclin/
Unfortunately McAfee tells me it's a risky site to visit - so beware!
Just noticed that my Norton says the same, but it's not like I'm going to give passwords or things like that. It's probably because it's a Romanian website. Maybe they're not that advanced in secure internet connections as we are in this matter, but don't quote me on this.
Still, the list is quite interesting, as we can conclude he dedicated his 11th symphony to Mozart, and that the manuscript of his 12th symphony is 1235 pages, as mentioned earlier. He's composed a LOT of music, considering he was also a philosopher, poet, writer, etc.. And his 15th symphony is apparently a reworking of his Violin Concerto?
It's very interesting to browse it through.
How much music had he written by, say, 1918?
Around 1918, he's composed circa 25 pieces. He began composing his 1st symphony in 1910, but finished it in 1932, and around 1938 he started his career as a symphonic composer.
Thanks. What did he write in his early years if not symphonies?
By 1918, he had composed the following:
1903 - Theme & Variations (for piano)
1907 - Nitokris (Overture for Orchestra)
1907 - Semănători (for mixed choir)
1907 - Rodica (for mixed choir)
1907 - Villanelle (for violin & piano)
1908 - Prelude for Orchestra
1908 - Primăvara (madrigal-rondo for mixed choir)
1909 - Piano Sonata no. 1 (and 3 versions of the Allegro movement)
1910(-32) - Symphony no. 1
1910 - Lied-Scherzo for piano
1911 - Soria (opera-madrigal in 5 acts, with the libretto written by Cuclin himself)
1911 - Suite no. 2 for piano
1913 - String Quartet no. 1
1913-14 - Three Old Sonnets and an Epigram (for voice & piano)
1914 - Small Poem for Voice & Orchestra (with French text by Cuclin himself)
1914 - Minuet-Scherzo for String Quartet
1915 - Ad majorem feminae gloriam ('Spectacol Tragic' in 2 acts and a prologue, with libretto by Cuclin himself)
1916 - 12 Madrigals for Choir in popular style
1917 - '7 Doine din război' (for voice & piano)
1917 - Melodies on texts by Al. T. Stamatiad (for voice & piano)
1917 - Parlenza (for voice & piano, on texts by Ion Minulescu)
1918 - Suite no. 1 for violin
1918(-22) - Suite no. 2 for violin
Thanks. Has any of this been recorded, apart from the 1st Symphony?
Yes. To recapitulate discussions that have probably been forgotten, there were LPs, some of which were uploaded -here- in days when this site allowed LP-uploading, of his 11th symphony in A-flat minor (1952) and I think his 16th in F major too among others (including his 3rd string quartet- not uploaded here), and a very cut (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php?topic=2178.0) radio broadcast of his C-sharp minor 9th symphony was uploaded here too. I had tapes of symphonies 9 & 11 from a friend which struck me very positively, and then got to hear the concerto and several other symphonies uploaded here (before this site became Unsung Romantic-ish Composers)*. They do often seem Myaskovsky-ish to me, but not consistently enough to pass the strictest new standard of this site (and of course neither does Myaskovsky himself, who had the bad sense to be an actual honest-to-goodness composer and not a self-caricature, so that some of his music is disallowed here too, poor fellow, tsk!)
*The friend pointed out some moments in both the 9th and 11th symphonies that were really surprising- the 2nd subject of the first movement of the 11th symphony, and its odd syncopated "wrong" conclusion, among them...
(ah, by "this" you meant the list of works composed before 1918. No clue. Fails the innocent ear test, but ... otherwise put, use the ear, not the eye. His violin sonatina from 1923(?) has been recorded, making it one of his earliest works after his first symphony to do so; it's post-1918 but one can try to track down that and give a listen at least.
Yes, I am also aware of the existence of a recording of his Violin Sonatina released on LP (from 1970.)
I haven't managed to track it down though.
But what I have found is a pdf file (in Romanian) in which his view of musical esthetics is discussed.
http://www.cristianbrancusi.ro/images/ESTETICA%20MUZICALA%20IN%20VIZIUNEA%20LUI%20DIMITRIE%20CUCLIN.pdf
It mentions that his symphonies (at least the first 14) have 'spiritual trails'?
The following passage was originally in Romanian and I've put in Google Translate, and I've tried to fix grammatical errors in it:
Symphony no. 2 (Voice of Gentiles), nos. 3 and 5 form the "essential" universe, and the 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 11th and 13th evoke the "substantial" dimension.
The 5th symphony is also called "Birth" as it makes the transition between sub-cycles.
The opposite is Symphony No. 10, "Death," for the twelfth to be destined "Resurrection".
Symphony no. 11 is dedicated to Mozart and Symphony no. 13 is "the Church".
The 6th, 7th, 8th, and especially the 9th symphonies are based essentially on folk elements, and are categorized as "Pastoral."
Symphony no. 1 opens, and Symphony no. 14 ends the immense vault, completed later thanks to a huge creative force.
You both misunderstood me (I think). I meant: Has any of his pre-1918 music been recorded, apart from Symphony No.1?
Forgot to mention it I guess. No, nothing else of that era has been recorded.
Nearest thing I could find was the sonatina which I think dates from 1923, but anyway again use the ear not the eye.
(In re dating, if you heard the first movement of Grechaninov's 3rd symphony (in E Op.100) without knowing who wrote it or when it was from, you might, like me, suppose it was composed around the time Borodin's 2nd symphony was composed- not - also- 1923. ... Which is not about Grechaninov, 3rd symphonies, or Opera 100s- but about the foolishness of going by date and not by your ear for anything more than _tentative_ decisions...)
Oh, I agree. But I have actually listened to Cuclin's later music and find that some of it definitely lies beyond UC's remit - hence my question about the possible suitability of his earlier works for discussion here. Trouble is, there's very little to go on. And, quite frankly, I'm not convinced of its quality anyway. Shame there are no CDs available.
In any case, Grechaninov was born 20 years before Cuclin, so one shouldn't really be surprised at the yawning gulf between their respective styles, whatever the dates of their compositions...
I just found the score of Cuclin's 9th symphony in the catalog of the SLUB Dresden. How a copy of it got there, I don't know.
I didn't really expect to find it listed there!
I also read somewhere earlier in this thread that 'doctorpresume' worked on the score of this symphony and found the recording on YouTube is a shortened version (40 minutes instead of the full 83.)
So now I was wondering if he used this score from the SLUB Dresden and how many pages that one had, because if he didn't use that one then maybe they have a different (perhaps longer?) version. The copy they have there has 415 pages. (I can't check it because it hasn't been digitalized, and it also looks like you have to be a student at their university to log in...)
For those interested, I found it here:
http://katalogbeta.slub-dresden.de/id/0011361388/#detail
I'm afraid I must repeat here that it is not appropriate to discuss music whose style falls outside our remit. We need, for example, to be able to sample the 9th Symphony for there to be further discussion on the subject.
I have sampled the 1st movt of the 9th symphony on You Tube and I reckon it may "just about" fall within our remit. It is very different from the Piano Concerto which definitely does not. Anyway, try it, Alan, and see if you agree. Clearly not all Cuclin's music is appropriate for this forum, but some of it may be - IMHO, of course.
Thanks for that helpful contribution, Gareth. I'll give it a listen a bit later today.
I'm inclined to agree with Gareth on this one. So let's proceed one piece at a time with this composer.
Just found the 9th symphony in the database of the Romanian National Library as well.
Also there are what are called in Romanian 'Lieduri', which you can translate as 'Lieder' (also by Cuclin of course, but unfortunately there's no way I can view them, so that's kind of a disappointment.)
Furthermore they have a cantata 'Crezul şi Isus înaintea morţii', scored for mixed choir and harmonium, published in 1935 and 'Jocuri populare româneşti', which is a small suite for piano, published in 1942.
The County Library of Galați also has the score of the 14th symphony, which has 435 pages.
Well, iirc, the Research Libraries of the Lincoln Center Library of New York has #14 too :) - skimmed it (but only that...) years ago during a visit there (when it was still part of Lincoln Center Library and its materials didn't have to be requested weeks in advance etc.)
I've checked multiple online catalogues of some of the larger Romanian libraries (like in Timisoara, Brasov, Iasi, etc.), trying to track down the 12th symphony, but the only ones I can find are the 9th and 14th. Those keep appearing in the catalogues.
I've read a Romanian article in a magazine published by the County Library of Galati, and I have new information: Cuclin's 5th symphony has 880 pages, the 1st, 4th and 6th have 317 pages, and the 12th has 1235 pages.
Cuclin obviously liked to write long works!
Some other works are discussed in there as well.
I found it here (from page 36 to 39 (or page 34 to 37, if you don't count the front pages. It's in Romanian though):
https://www.scribd.com/document/215657251/Axis-Libri-Nr-5
Also, reading this makes me think that in all other recordings of his symphonies that we are aware of (1, of course no. 9, 11, 13, 16 & 20) have probably had large portions of score removed, as the article states that the symphonies nos. 1, 4 & 6 have 317 pages, and that those are of 'normal proportions.' A symphony consisting of that much pages probably takes around an hour, possibly more.
I originally planned to post this way earlier, but I forgot ::).
Last year I managed to obtain copies of Cuclin's 9th & 14th symphonies.
Both are very big: 415 & 435 pages respectively.
An "older Romanian man" (I don't know anything else about him) apparently travelled through the whole country to find any of Cuclin's works.
He found these two symphonies, copied them and passed them on.
So the message I sent along with the people from the church in my grandparents' village actually yielded some big results actually!
From what I understand, the other symphonies appear to be private property...
Some time ago a recording of Cuclin's 7th symphony was posted to YouTube. I have a feeling it might be an incomplete recording (considering the amount of cuts that was made in his 9th symphony). Here are the three available movements:
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJE9KA5P4GY
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U9KHElPbdg
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG6sgKQY2I0
There could be a 4th movement that wasn't recorded, but I haven't found a score of the piece to corroborate that.
In fact, this is a misattribution. The symphony from these YouTube videos is not Cuclin's Symphony No. 7, but his Symphony No. 17 "In preclassical forms" from 1965. I once got a broadcast recording of this symphony (again, just three movements, by the way) plus announcement which definitely clarified things. The title partly explains the neoclassical formulas Cuclin uses in this work (which, to be honest, I am not too fond of).
Oh dear - while I'm grateful to hear anything new, this symphony takes 'turgid' to a whole new level. I can't imagine wanting to listen to it ever again...
QuoteToday it is difficult to penetrate the labyrinth of his musical thought
https://www.icr.ro/pagini/dimitrie-cuclin/en (https://www.icr.ro/pagini/dimitrie-cuclin/en)
I agree.
Quote from: Holger on Friday 17 April 2020, 16:13
In fact, this is a misattribution. The symphony from these YouTube videos is not Cuclin's Symphony No. 7, but his Symphony No. 17 "In preclassical forms" from 1965. I once got a broadcast recording of this symphony (again, just three movements, by the way) plus announcement which definitely clarified things. The title partly explains the neoclassical formulas Cuclin uses in this work (which, to be honest, I am not too fond of).
So this is his 17th symphony? Wow, I wasn't aware of that, mainly because on Cuclin's symphonies there's a big lack of information.
It's strange though, because I found this recording on the Internet Archive (the upload to YouTube was actually made possible by me alerting the uploader of this recording).
The original files I have of it include a short radio announcement at the end of the 3rd movement, which states (and I'm absolutely 100% sure that I heard correctly) this was his 7th symphony.
Did the announcer make a mistake there? And if so, is this actually a full recording without any cuts? (as the recording of the 9th symphony has a large amount of cuts)
Whichever symphony this is, it's really hard work to listen to - thickly orchestrated, featureless, much ado about nothing. Sorry...
Somebody must have an error at some point in case of this symphony, but I am sure that this one must be No. 17 indeed. Here are the arguments:
1) the announcement I cited,
2) the key: the MGG (German music encyclopedia) gives F Sharp Major as the key of the Seventh and G Major as the key of No. 17, and this one definitely ends in G Major,
3) the title: the symphony undoubtedly refers to 18th century music, and No. 17 is called "In preclassical forms", which fits perfectly,
4) the style: the other Cuclin works from around 1950 (No. 7 is from 1948) are more romantic in tone.
As for the work itself, I am afraid I agree with Alan. Cuclin is a kind of an oddity anyway in my view, and while I do collect his stuff it's more about curiosity than about the prospect of really discovering something substantial. However, his late works like Symphonies Nos. 17&20 are really a tough listen, and that's not because they would be complicated in any way...
I would be interested to hear that announcement as well, because I'm getting curious here...
Is there a way for me to find it?
I've listened to the symphony a few times in the past two weeks. Even though I think that (for example) his 9th symphony is much stronger than this one, it still has its moments.
I find myself enjoying a few passages in the 1st and 3rd movements.
QuoteI find myself enjoying a few passages in the 1st and 3rd movements
'Nuff said.